DL Rotation Is Costing Us

[BuffaloBillyG]

Let me start by saying I totally get the philosophy behind it and can even see some merit in theory. Aside from QB in my eyes the most importantly position is the fellas that chase the QBs.

 

However, we have a DL that is costing us around $40 million against the cap this year. Invested big money and high picks. For "part time" players. That's a HUGE amount to invest in players that are not full time difference makers.

 

What each one has on common right now is it this point in their careers each one is a JAG. Sure, Groot, Oliver, AJE and maybe possibly Boogie have some upside. And Hughes used to be solid. But NONE of them have anything elite in their game right now.

 

For the Pro-Hughes crowd. I know he "gets held oh so much and it's never called". But in reality it's way less than it's portrayed as. It's odd that his sacks dropped off for the most part when Mario left. And yes...he gets pressures. Wonderful. You know what he doesn't do? Take the QB down for a loss of yards. Kinda important. 

 

Our whole DL gets pressures at BEST. We have no one that's can semi consistently take a QB down. To throw a baseball term out...they have warning track power. We need a home run hitter.

 

Even the lack of guys that could get home and pull a QB down would be easy to look past if they were stout against the run. They are not. 

 

Then you have young guys like Oliver that start the game on fire a lot of the time and just kinda disappear. Almost like they get out of the flow of the game. And I cannot recall ONE game where our "fresh legged DL" took over a game late and dominated an exhasted OL. Instead we voluntarily take our better players off the field for a good chunk of the game and sub in lesser players. 

[Hebert19]

I think the dline and running back rotation are both killing us.  

 

No players get any rhythm or game flow as a result...

 

Start Singletary and he gets 1st and second down...if short yardage bring in moss if longer bring in breida.  

 

On D.  Go big on first and second and then bring in pass rushers.   You know.  Basically what every other team does. 

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

I hate both the D line and the RB rotation. On the surface it’s a solid idea. Unfortunately all you are doing it putting worse players on the field more often. Just leave the good guys in the game for Christ sakes. I don’t need backup level players with fresh legs effecting the game.

[Process]

It's terrible. But it's part of the process and won't change.

[All_Pro_Bills]

I think your point is valid.  This isn't like hockey where you can roll 3 or 4 "good" evenly balanced lines throughout the course of the game and create some mis-matches with line changes or combinations to be successful. 

Maybe a couple of the younger guys on the line develop into a difference maker but right now there's no player in the rotation the offense is going to game plan around and account for on every play.  Maybe you need an elite/pro bowl type impact guy or two instead.  As this works pretty well by observation from around the league. The current approach while keeping guys fresh might be a mistake from a cap and roster building view.  It didn't seem to worry or slow down the Colts today.  Or the Titans for that matter or any other opponent with a good offensive line and a competent QB.  Play the best 4 players and give them a breather but dump the averaging out playing time approach. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by All_Pro_Bills

[BuffaloBillyG]

1 minute ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I think your point is valid.  This isn't like hockey where you can roll 3or 4 "good" evenly balanced lines throughout the course of the game and create some mis-matches with line changes or combinations to be successful. 

Maybe a couple of the younger guys on the line develop into a difference maker but right now there's no player in the rotation the offense is going to game plan around and account for on every play.  Maybe you need an elite/pro bowl type impact guy or two instead.  As this works pretty well by observation from around the league. The current approach while keeping guys fresh might be a mistake from a cap and roster building view.  It didn't seem to worry or slow down the Colts today.

Not only that...but players like Groot and Oliver really could use the snaps. Give them more in game experience. I really feel like players develop on the field and the sharing reps slows development. Oliver for example could be much further along than he is now. 

[John from Riverside]

8 minutes ago, Gene1973 said:

I think McClappity thought the rotation BS was going to be his claim to fame.

 

It's a crap idea. 

I don’t think it’s a crappy idea I think there are other issues on the team that are highlighting itI don’t think it’s a crappy idea I think there are other issues on the team that are highlighting it

[BuffaloBillyG]

10 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

I hate both the D line and the RB rotation. On the surface it’s a solid idea. Unfortunately all you are doing it putting worse players on the field more often. Just leave the good guys in the game for Christ sakes. I don’t need backup level players with fresh legs effecting the game.

I wasn't even gonna mention the RB rotation...but that's another peeve of mine. At one point today Motor had a few nice plays. Then Breida came in and had some production. Then they forced Moss in because it was "his turn" and we lost momentum. 

[Maine-iac]

What kind of rotation did we even have today?  If it was a rotation why am I seeing Addison all day (missing tackles and getting penalties) and not seeing any of our draft picks, not once.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

Doesn’t every team in the league have pretty regular D-line rotations? Maybe you don’t take a TJ Watt off the field— but otherwise, I am pretty sure this is standard practice outside of the superstar players. 

[Maine-iac]

2 minutes ago, No Place To Hyde said:

I wasn't even gonna mention the RB rotation...but that's another peeve of mine. At one point today Motor had a few nice plays. Then Breida came in and had some production. Then they forced Moss in because it was "his turn" and we lost momentum. 

How did Moss become "the short yardage guy" he's 2 pounds heavier than Singletary?

[BuffaloBillyG]

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

I don’t think it’s a crappy idea I think there are other issues on the team that are highlighting itI don’t think it’s a crappy idea I think there are other issues on the team that are highlighting it

Well, as I said in the OP...in theory I can see how it would be beneficial. However, at any given time we have around $15-20M of cap space sitting the bench waiting for their turn. That could be money to get a G or T. So I do believe the cause has a negative effect.

 

And again, I cannot recall one game in McD's time here that it made a noticed difference late in a game.

[Dablitzkrieg]

6 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I don’t think it’s a crappy idea I think there are other issues on the team that are highlighting itI don’t think it’s a crappy idea I think there are other issues on the team that are highlighting it

Who are you Johnny two times?

[BubbaT]

I’ve seen enough of Butler and he seemed to be in a LOT today. Useless waste of a uniform. Butler/Obada as the 2nd DT rotation is awful. After last year I really hoped they’d find a run stuffing DT to back up Star ( back then we didn’t even know if he’d be back) and a stud OG. More and more it seems like an egregious error in roster building

[John from Riverside]

Just now, BubbaT said:

I’ve seen enough of Butler and he seemed to be in a LOT today. Useless waste of a uniform. Butler/Obada as the 2nd DT rotation is awful. After last year I really hoped they’d find a run stuffing DT to back up Star ( back then we didn’t even know if he’d be back) and a stud OG. More and more it seems like an egregious error in roster building

Has anybody been following the legit nose tackles that were drafted this year there were a couple

[DCofNC]

I agree completely, the rotation is stupid, time and time again we give up big plays in key moments because we couldn’t possibly leave the best players on the field.. infuriating.

[ALLEN1QB]

20 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

What kind of rotation did we even have today?  If it was a rotation why am I seeing Addison all day (missing tackles and getting penalties) and not seeing any of our draft picks, not once.

Addison should be cut tomorrow.

[billsfan714]

The DL is a combination of non-elite  power and speed.

[vincec]

I think the strategy of investing big in the OL is sound. The problem is that they haven't really cashed in on their investment.

[CEN-CAL17]

I’d like to see this team run a 3-4 (would look more like a 5-2 with Hughes playing Weakside OLB, not every play but to match physical run teams.

 

Rousseau, Oliver, Harrison NT, Butler, Hughes

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by CEN-CAL17

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

I’d like to see this team run a 3-4 (would look more like a 5-2 with Hughes playing Weakside OLB, not every play but to match physical run teams.

 

Rousseau, Oliver, Harrison NT, Butler, Hughes

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like to try anything else besides nickel vs strong run teams. Past couple they had Bills number. Now up to the coaches to do something

[CEN-CAL17]

Just now, Buffalo Bills Fan said:

Like to try anything else besides nickel vs strong run teams. Past couple they had Bills number. Now up to the coaches to do something

Exactly….. that’s why they practice. That’s why they are called professionals.

 

Game plan something they haven’t seen. Throw some 5-2 at them, blitz the CBs, put Oliver to the strength side as a DE a few times with Harrison and Butler…. But no, 4-2-5 Base Nickel. 
 

I don’t understand why these coaches just stick to the same crap!!!!!

[CEN-CAL17]

Listening to McDs post game ain’t nothing gonna change cause he said himself he thinks this is a physical team. Sure thing coach.

[JerseyBills]

2 hours ago, No Place To Hyde said:

Let me start by saying I totally get the philosophy behind it and can even see some merit in theory. Aside from QB in my eyes the most importantly position is the fellas that chase the QBs.

 

However, we have a DL that is costing us around $40 million against the cap this year. Invested big money and high picks. For "part time" players. That's a HUGE amount to invest in players that are not full time difference makers.

 

What each one has on common right now is it this point in their careers each one is a JAG. Sure, Groot, Oliver, AJE and maybe possibly Boogie have some upside. And Hughes used to be solid. But NONE of them have anything elite in their game right now.

 

For the Pro-Hughes crowd. I know he "gets held oh so much and it's never called". But in reality it's way less than it's portrayed as. It's odd that his sacks dropped off for the most part when Mario left. And yes...he gets pressures. Wonderful. You know what he doesn't do? Take the QB down for a loss of yards. Kinda important. 

 

Our whole DL gets pressures at BEST. We have no one that's can semi consistently take a QB down. To throw a baseball term out...they have warning track power. We need a home run hitter.

 

Even the lack of guys that could get home and pull a QB down would be easy to look past if they were stout against the run. They are not. 

 

Then you have young guys like Oliver that start the game on fire a lot of the time and just kinda disappear. Almost like they get out of the flow of the game. And I cannot recall ONE game where our "fresh legged DL" took over a game late and dominated an exhasted OL. Instead we voluntarily take our better players off the field for a good chunk of the game and sub in lesser players. 

I agree. 

Oliver and then Star are our 2 best guys imo

Groot,Boogie and AJ got high ceilings and low floors.

 

Really , Zimmer ,Butler and  Philips are JAGS

[bmur66]

Running backs busting off 10 yards a carry in the 4th quarter. What’s the purpose of this DL rotation?

[billsfan714]

I dont think its the rotation as much as there just isnt a lot of blue chip talent  on that unit.    And with losing Hughes, Addison, Butler and Philips gone next year there will be holes to fill and not a lot of money to spend.

[BuffaloBillyG]

1 minute ago, billsfan714 said:

I dont think its the rotation as much as there just isnt a lot of blue chip talent  on that unit.    And with losing Hughes, Addison, Butler and Philips gone next year there will be holes to fill and not a lot of money to spend.

The thing is...there SHOULD be blue chippers with the high draft picks spent there. 

 

And with the names you listed I would bet at LEAST 2 of them are resigned.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, billsfan714 said:

I dont think its the rotation as much as there just isnt a lot of blue chip talent  on that unit.    And with losing Hughes, Addison, Butler and Philips gone next year there will be holes to fill and not a lot of money to spend.

 

You’re correct about the lack of blue chip talent, but it’s also a valid point that a lot of FA $$ have been invested (Lotulelei, Addison, Butler, last year Jefferson) and a lot of first 3 round draft picks (Harrison Phillips, Epenesa, Rousseau, Basham).  Last year I believe we had the most expensive DL in the league.

 

The problem is that the ROI doesn’t seem to equal the resources put into it, and in part that may be due to the desire to have 8 or 9 starting players rotating instead of several blue chip guys and a couple backups

[billsfan714]

16 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You’re correct about the lack of blue chip talent, but it’s also a valid point that a lot of FA $$ have been invested (Lotulelei, Addison, Butler, last year Jefferson) and a lot of first 3 round draft picks (Harrison Phillips, Epenesa, Rousseau, Basham).  Last year I believe we had the most expensive DL in the league.

 

The problem is that the ROI doesn’t seem to equal the resources put into it, and in part that may be due to the desire to have 8 or 9 starting players rotating instead of several blue chip guys and a couple backups

I agree and that tells me Beane. the scouts, McD are really poor at evaluating DL talent.

[Nelius]

I think it's tough to declare there isn't any blue chip talent, because of the rotation yeah? Some chicken/egg going on. One of our four recent draft picks in the top two rounds should be blue chip or close to blue chip talent, otherwise that's a bigger issue. Maybe they're just not seeing the field enough.

[die hard bills fan]

I think the whole "player versatility" on the D line has gone too far. They are using DE's inside because they think they are versatile enough to do it when in fact they can't.  They need more big uglies up front that maybe can only play the middle but are good at it and leave the DE's on the end.

[SCBills]

Obada and Addison for Isaiah Stewart

[frostbitmic]

Against the Saints Thursday night, I'd love to see them start Rousseau and Epenesa at DE and for them to play at least 66% of the plays. I'd also like to see Oliver lead the DTs in snaps by a wide margin.

 

Addison and Hughes are not the future of this team and need to play more of a back up role and wait until the starters need a few minutes in the oxygen tent to get in the game.

[Doc Brown]

They seemed to leave Phillips in there more than usual today pry because he's the only true 1 technique player we have with Star out.  You wonder if fatigue played a role.

[par73]

7 hours ago, Gene1973 said:

I think having a couple elite players on the line is better than a bunch of lesser players.

 

 

That's the problem-- Buffalo has no one elite on the line. Average or below in both size and ability.

[Nextmanup]

6 hours ago, No Place To Hyde said:

The thing is...there SHOULD be blue chippers with the high draft picks spent there. 

 

And with the names you listed I would bet at LEAST 2 of them are resigned.

The D line has been poorly constructed and managed, pure and simple.

It's one of the more glaring errors of the McBeane Era.

 

 

[Scott7975]

Agree.  It made sense on paper that guys with fresh legs would be good but in practice it isnt working.  Waste of resources, waste of reps to young guys.  Imagine dropping two of these guys and having a good guard or even a high talent end.  They could have accomplished that. What do we have like 9 or 10 guys at the position?  Just crazy.

[billsfan714]

6 hours ago, die hard bills fan said:

I think the whole "player versatility" on the D line has gone too far. They are using DE's inside because they think they are versatile enough to do it when in fact they can't.  They need more big uglies up front that maybe can only play the middle but are good at it and leave the DE's on the end.

This times a thousand.

[Chaos]

12 hours ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

I hate both the D line and the RB rotation. On the surface it’s a solid idea. Unfortunately all you are doing it putting worse players on the field more often. Just leave the good guys in the game for Christ sakes. I don’t need backup level players with fresh legs effecting the game.

As a fan I always want to win every game and look at the decision making in the silo of the game I am watching.  I think the rotation concept may extend past fresh legs in a game, but is also an attempt to keep players fresher for games 18 and beyond.

[colin]

based on our can crushing stats i was hoping that we had shored up our weak spots and got everything correct under the mccoach system, but clearly that is simply not the case.

 

our d is ineffective against any team that can run and protect well.  lots of investment in the dl, and they just don't make an impact.  

 

we have just about the best secondary in the nfl, and our LBs are cover focused, and it simply doesn't matter when a team can just block us up and go play action for chunks in the middle of the field.

 

i don't know if changing the rotation system will help, but it's clear our team simply does not make adjustments of any meaningful impact.  we come in with a game plan and run that game plan into the ground.  

 

i think the team issues are just too obvious to everyone to call our coaches good right now.  our OL and no ability to run or protect (which is at least in part scheme and practice preparation) and our D's total weakness against the same, and not even having the intent to adjust shows our brain trust has some huge blind spots.