So, 8 games in, here’s what I think…

[eball]

• We currently have an average (at best) OL, but Dawkins is a good player, Morse is a good player, and Brown shows promise.  Williams looks passable at RG.  Cody Ford should never see the field again.  I’d like to see Bates get in there.  The problem seems to be a lack of identity and an inability to transition from pass blocking to run blocking; I am not savvy enough to understand if this is an issue of talent or coaching, but I’m leaning towards the latter.
• We have RBs who do not strike fear into any defense, mostly because they can’t get more than a 1/2 yard past the LOS before encountering contact.
• We have a top 5 QB who tries to (and usually can) do everything to will his team to victory.
• We have a top 5 WR corps.
• We have a top 5 defense.
• We have a top 5 placekicker.

 

With the above combination the Bills are most certainly still a legitimate Super Bowl contender, but they have flaws on offense the coaching staff must scheme around.  Daboll needs to look at what the OL can and can’t do, understand the way defenses are playing us, and devise a plan early in games to get the defense into the looks we want to see.  He also needs to adjust during the game.  He did this against Miami; I have no explanation for why he did not against Jacksonville.

 

I knew this place would be a wreck after Sunday’s game.  It was disgusting to watch.  I’m not buying the “they didn’t care enough” b.s. (I mean, look at how the defense played) but someone needs to light a fire under the OL and get them to show some pride in what they are doing.  How can they look at Josh taking a beating, and the way he addressed the media after the game, and not take it personally?

 

I look forward to seeing what Bills team comes out on Sunday against a team we should most certainly handle.  It will say a great deal about the rest of the season.

 

Cheers.

[Pete]

I agree with everything, except the RBs.  I think if they didn't get hit until 3 yards, it wouldn't matter,  our RBs don't scare anyone.

Bills need a RB with speed, who can run a wheel route, and that opposing defenses need to game plan on.  When a play breaks down(lots lately)- having a RB who can make a play would help out Josh and Bills offense incredibly imo

[GunnerBill]

I think we have a bad Oline. When it plays at its best it is sort of average. On its bad days like Sunday it is a total liability.

 

EDIT: I should also say while I agree Dion is a good player he hasn't looked right all year to me. We had a centre half at Arsenal last year get a bad bout of Covid at xmas and after 2 months out he came back and was not nearly the same player. Took him the summer break and the new season to get back to his level. I have to believe we are not going to see Dion at his true level in 2021. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by GunnerBill

[BuffaloRebound]

I suspect if we lose to the Jets, we’ll find out how the offense feels about the coaching.  Zero balance and no commitment to the run… my guess is the O-Line feels like they’re not put in a position to succeed.  They’re certainly playing that way.  

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

7 minutes ago, eball said:

 

• We currently have an average (at best) OL, but Dawkins is a good player, Morse is a good player, and Brown shows promise.  Williams looks passable at RG.  Cody Ford should never see the field again.  I’d like to see Bates get in there.  The problem seems to be a lack of identity and an inability to transition from pass blocking to run blocking; I am not savvy enough to understand if this is an issue of talent or coaching, but I’m leaning towards the latter.
• We have RBs who do not strike fear into any defense, mostly because they can’t get more than a 1/2 yard past the LOS before encountering contact.
• We have a top 5 QB who tries to (and usually can) do everything to will his team to victory.
• We have a top 5 WR corps.
• We have a top 5 defense.
• We have a top 5 placekicker

 

Hard to argue that 

 

[eball]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I think we have a bad Oline. When it plays at its best it is sort of average. On its bad days like Sunday it is a total liability.

 

But is it talent or coaching?

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

9 minutes ago, eball said:

 

But is it talent or coaching?

Coaching.  Clearly the coaches need to convey to the Bills team captains that at the coin flip they need to request the '5 Mississippi' option.

[billsfan1959]

7 minutes ago, eball said:

With the above combination the Bills are most certainly still a legitimate Super Bowl contender, but they have flaws on offense the coaching staff must scheme around.  Daboll needs to look at what the OL can and can’t do, understand the way defenses are playing us, and devise a plan early in games to get the defense into the looks we want to see.  He also needs to adjust during the game.  He did this against Miami; I have no explanation for why he did not against Jacksonville.

 

The offense clearly didn't play well and the oline was as bad as I've seen in a while. I'm not sure it was really a lack of adjustments. I went back and watched it again. The Bills crossed into Jax territory on 6 of 9 possessions (had Beasley not dropped an easy catch it would have been 7 of 9 possessions). To me, it was a perfect storm of offensive issues: Penalties, drops, missed assignments, turnovers, etc. - and every offensive miscue seemed to be at a critical moment.

 

In addition, the absence of Brown has really caused issues the last two weeks along the Oline. If their starters are healthy, consistently in the same positions, and playing up to their potential, they are not great, but they they are serviceable with a QB like Josh. Like most teams, they have no quality depth on the oline. You remove Brown and shuffle others around and you see the results. You compound that with all of the other mistakes you saw on Sunday and it is a recipe for disaster.

 

I don't buy the "They didn't care," "They weren't prepared," "They have no heart," and other ridiculous assertions. It was atrocious, and they have issues, no doubt. But it is in no way a defining moment for this team. All teams have issues and all teams stumble at some point.

 

I find it interesting that so many people want to use this game as the lens through which they want to view this team as opposed to the overwhelming majority of games over the last year and a half in which they demonstrated that they are one of the best teams in the NFL.

[bmur66]

Reportedly the Bills were looking at Adrian Peterson which tells me they know their RB's are not good enough.

[SCBills]

When you break down the OL player by player, it looks better than what we’ve seen as a whole.  
 

The issue is that Morse is solid in pass pro, but struggles in run blocking and with big/physical DT’s.  That’s only enhanced by the struggles of our guards. 
 

Another issue is that Dion, as multiple years have shown, is a good LT.  Problem is, he hasn’t been the same since covid.  Will it click for him at some point this year?

 

Brown shows a ton of promise at RT, but is a rookie, and will have rookie moments. 
 

When healthy, with Williams and Feliciano at Guard, this OL has potential to be good - especially if they could ever develop some continuity.  
 

Our OL depth is an absolute disaster though.  In a perfect world, Feliciano would be a backup, but he’s currently the weak link at starter when healthy.  Anything after Feliciano is barely playable at the moment. 

TE is an extension of the OL.  Knox is fantastic, but again, the depth is brutal.  Sweeney is an entire struggle bus out there. 

In summary, if we can stay healthy, there’s reason for optimism.  If only the NFL wasn’t a war of attrition.. 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by SCBills

[SoCal Deek]

It’s hasn’t been mentioned much but I have this theory that Bills do not do well on real grass. Those games are obviously road games so my theory may be a bit biased but how many grass games are left? Tampa?

[RiotAct]

O-Line… average as compared to an NCAA team?

[Royale with Cheese]

I do not think our offensive line is average.  I think its bottom 3 in the league.  Pass pro is inconsistent and running game is non existent.

 

I am pretty sure we will have at least two new starters on the interior line next year.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Royale with Cheese

[billsfan1959]

5 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

O-Line… average as compared to an NCAA team?

 

Average enough to help this team score 26+ pts per game in 6 of their 8 games this year (average 35 pts per game)....

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, eball said:

 

But is it talent or coaching?

 

Talent.

 

Of course it is always both but I think primarily talent.

Edited November 9, 2021 by GunnerBill

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

13 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

O-Line… average as compared to an NCAA team?

You just drag those thoughts over to the college football subforum, citizen! 🤨

[BuffaloNuts]

I saw at least 4 plays where Singletary was getting wrapped up as he was getting the ball. They literally have to make guys miss before they get the damn ball. The run blocking has been atrocious. It became really apparent when I watched the last few Browns games and saw D'ernest Johnson looking like a hall of famer running through gaping holes. Had at least 4-5 yards of open space on every carry. no way in hell he'd rush for 130 on our team. 

 

It was seriously comical how bad our oline is run blocking. 

 

[Buffalo Boy]

   Agree on Ford…. Abysmal 👿

   Seemed like a couple times,in the Jags game, Motor had a beautiful hole and cut it back into a defender. Seems to be a “vision” issue. He also runs square into defenders. He never seems to work angles at point of contact.

    My receiver/offensive scheme problem is this: We don’t get YAC. 
Diggs will go down instead of accepting contact. Sometimes I think this is prudent but other times there is a potential seam between defenders and he doesn’t try to exploit it.

    Beasely runs in a circle and falls… always. 
   Sanders has blocking issues( last game at least)

     Daboll needs to scheme more shallow crossers and slants and we need to take the shorter stuff by design sometimes.

[corta765]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

I think we have a bad Oline. When it plays at its best it is sort of average. On its bad days like Sunday it is a total liability.

 

EDIT: I should also say while I agree Dion is a good player he hasn't looked right all year to me. We had a centre half at Arsenal last year get a bad bout of Covid at xmas and after 2 months out he came back and was not nearly the same player. Took him the summer break and the new season to get back to his level. I have to believe we are not going to see Dion at his true level in 2021. 

 

I would tend to agree that the o line is not very good this year, but Josh's ability to move and create so many plays mutes at times how rough it really is. I will say the O-Line in 19 and 20 was good, but age and identity/communication REALLY seem to be hitting it hard this year.

1 minute ago, Buffalo Boy said:

My receiver/offensive scheme problem is this: We don’t get YAC. 
Diggs will go down instead of accepting contact. Sometimes I think this is prudent but other times there is a potential seam between defenders and he doesn’t try to exploit it.

 

Diggs the last few games has def been avoiding contact I think his knee got tweaked against TEN but they are not saying anything because he did go to the sidelines with a trainer that game.

[Bleedbuffaloblue]

I definitely agree with most everything said here. IMO the RB’s could be more than serviceable with better run blocking, or should I say any real type of run blocking. When the RB is met by multiple defenders before even reaching the LOS I’m not sure Derrick Henry could be effective behind this OL. The run blocking is just brutal. It’s almost like they are just stepping aside and letting the defender run right by.

[Greg S]

19 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I do not think our offensive line is average.  I think its bottom 3 in the league.  Pass pro is inconsistent and running game is non existent.

 

I am pretty sure we will have at least two new starters on the interior line next year.

 

It's going to be an interesting offseason for sure. Beane has a lot of work to do in fixing the OL and upgrading the RB position.

[Rc2catch]

I still stand by the thought that we don’t run enough. 
The line is struggling with pass protection and we just give up on rush attempts. Even if your backs are bad (I don’t think moss and motor are nearly as bad as they’re portrayed on here) you still have to show some dedication to the run game. Get the line in some sort of rhythm blocking. Pittsburgh couldn’t run at all last night yet Najee got 20+ attempts. They ran multiple jet sweeps and motions and had some success with it. We do none of that. We throw some outside receiver screens and run up the gut mostly where we are the weakest. 

[golfball323]

I love when we can run it, but its not our identity. We need to attack differently against certain coverages.

 

Last year we stretched defenses horizontally with Mckenzie sweeps. Those have been all but eliminated from the playbook. Getting back to that style of offense would be more beneficial than trying to force a between the tackles running game. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by golfball323

[gobills404]

1 hour ago, eball said:

But is it talent or coaching?

Since hiring Bobby Johnson: 

Dawkins' development plateaued and now he has regressed

Ford has been a total bust

Feliciano has gotten worse each year

Daryl Williams has regressed from year 1 to year 2 with the Bills

Morse is fine but hasn't been as good as he was in KC

 

Fingers crossed he doesn't screw up developing Spencer Brown

 

 

[PolishDave]

2 hours ago, eball said:

• I knew this place would be a wreck after Sunday’s game.  It was disgusting to watch.  I’m not buying the “they didn’t care enough” b.s. (I mean, look at how the defense played) but someone needs to light a fire under the OL and get them to show some pride in what they are doing.  How can they look at Josh taking a beating, and the way he addressed the media after the game, and not take it personally?

 

I think the offensive line knows they sucked and they are ashamed of it.    They just lack the talent/ability to do anything about it.

 

A lot of the issues in that game were also the result of a really lousy offensive game plan.    There were deep plays to be made in that game.   They weren't attempted just like back when Tyrod was QB here.    (I think Allen was being coached out of it for that game.  I could be wrong.  I am speculating.) 

 

Jacksonville's defense was never really tested far enough beyond the line of scrimmage.   Jacksonville's defense got more confident and more aggressive as the game went on as they realized they were actually capable of competing with a team that is supposed to be "far" superior on paper.

[Real McClappy]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

I agree with everything, except the RBs.  I think if they didn't get hit until 3 yards, it wouldn't matter,  our RBs don't scare anyone.

Bills need a RB with speed, who can run a wheel route, and that opposing defenses need to game plan on.  When a play breaks down(lots lately)- having a RB who can make a play would help out Josh and Bills offense incredibly imo

If our RBs didn't get hit until 3 yards past the LOS we would be 8-0 easily. Oline run blocking is a HUGE problem for this team right now.  Multiple fans want to blame the RB's though??? It all starts in the Trench. 

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, Real McNasty said:

If our RBs didn't get hit until 3 yards past the LOS we would be 8-0 easily. Oline run blocking is a HUGE problem for this team right now.  Multiple fans want to blame the RB's though??? It all starts in the Trench. 

neither our oline or rbs are championship quality.   both position groups have been neglected imo, and both position groups will be much improved this offseason. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Pete

[Ethan in Cleveland]

I'm not saying we don't have a top 5 defense. The reality is no one really knows if the defense is good or not.  Let's see how they look against New England Indy and Tampa that have at least competent offenses. Stopping KC does not look like much of a feat this year. Tenn rolled them with Henry and Brown. Big physical teams will give them trouble. They have the pieces to be a top 5 defense.  I just need to see them do it against better competition. 

[Pete]

4 minutes ago, Real McNasty said:

If our RBs didn't get hit until 3 yards past the LOS we would be 8-0 easily. Oline run blocking is a HUGE problem for this team right now.  Multiple fans want to blame the RB's though??? It all starts in the Trench. 

our line cant pass protect either

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

I agree with everything, except the RBs.  I think if they didn't get hit until 3 yards, it wouldn't matter,  our RBs don't scare anyone.

Bills need a RB with speed, who can run a wheel route, and that opposing defenses need to game plan on.  When a play breaks down(lots lately)- having a RB who can make a play would help out Josh and Bills offense incredibly imo

I agree.  I've seen enough of Moss and Singletary.  Neither of which have the speed or vision necessary to run behind a terrible OL.  We have the talent to win 10 games but because of this OL nightmare we'll have to be patient and wait for Beane to go nuts this spring replacing players like Ford, Feliciano and Williams. We need new RB's and Road Grader olineman. 

[SCBills]

12 minutes ago, Pete said:

our line cant pass protect either

 

This OL is absolutely embarrassing right now, but I do think some of the pass pro struggles (minus the obvious injury issues) are related to our inability & unwillingness to run the ball.  

 

Again, that falls on the OL, but even when teams rush 4, they can simply pin their ears back and go.

[Dr.Sack]

What kills me is our RPO play, where we fake a handoff to the RB and wait till the last second while the pocket is collapsing there’s chaos all around and by then Allen has .1 seconds to throw.

[hondo in seattle]

1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

Average enough to help this team score 26+ pts per game in 6 of their 8 games this year (average 35 pts per game)....

 

This stat doesn't mean we have a good OL, or even an average one.

As I think back on the season, it seems to me that a typical good play includes Allen evading a tackler and then finding a receiver downfield for a nice gain.

We're scoring points despite the OL, not because of it.  

[CircleTheWagons99]

OLine is bad and its been that way for a LONG TIME. Allen just masks it   

[billsfan1959]

5 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

This stat doesn't mean we have a good OL, or even an average one.

As I think back on the season, it seems to me that a typical good play includes Allen evading a tackler and then finding a receiver downfield for a nice gain.

We're scoring points despite the OL, not because of it.  

 

Allen can't do it all on his own. If he could, we wouldn't be discussing a loss to Jax. When you are racking up 35 pts per game, the oline, while not spectacular, is doing enough. With Brown in the lineup and everyone healthy and in the right position, this line is good enough for this team to beat any other team in the NFL.

[FilthyBeast]

3 hours ago, eball said:

• We currently have an average (at best) OL, but Dawkins is a good player, Morse is a good player, and Brown shows promise.  Williams looks passable at RG.  Cody Ford should never see the field again.  I’d like to see Bates get in there.  The problem seems to be a lack of identity and an inability to transition from pass blocking to run blocking; I am not savvy enough to understand if this is an issue of talent or coaching, but I’m leaning towards the latter.
• We have RBs who do not strike fear into any defense, mostly because they can’t get more than a 1/2 yard past the LOS before encountering contact.
• We have a top 5 QB who tries to (and usually can) do everything to will his team to victory.
• We have a top 5 WR corps.
• We have a top 5 defense.
• We have a top 5 placekicker.

 

With the above combination the Bills are most certainly still a legitimate Super Bowl contender, but they have flaws on offense the coaching staff must scheme around.  Daboll needs to look at what the OL can and can’t do, understand the way defenses are playing us, and devise a plan early in games to get the defense into the looks we want to see.  He also needs to adjust during the game.  He did this against Miami; I have no explanation for why he did not against Jacksonville.

 

I knew this place would be a wreck after Sunday’s game.  It was disgusting to watch.  I’m not buying the “they didn’t care enough” b.s. (I mean, look at how the defense played) but someone needs to light a fire under the OL and get them to show some pride in what they are doing.  How can they look at Josh taking a beating, and the way he addressed the media after the game, and not take it personally?

 

I look forward to seeing what Bills team comes out on Sunday against a team we should most certainly handle.  It will say a great deal about the rest of the season.

 

Cheers.

 

You are what your record says you are...and halfway through the season this is a middle of the pack 5-3 team that is essentially more loss away from losing the division lead and not even being in the WC picture in the top 7 depending on how the other games shake out this week.

 

The online is not average at best, they are terrible and I believe the only team in the league that has given up 20+ pressures in 3 games this season.

 

Yes the defense has been good on paper, but again look at who we've played. Against probably 25 other teams last week we certainly give up  more than 9 points and lose badly.

 

Yes Allen has been good outside of the first few weeks of the season, but outside of the Chiefs game (who we know has a bad defense and isn't good overall) who has he beat and been elite against?

 

I just think a cold hard reality is settling in and the Bills are just not a very good team this year. Sure they might get enough wins to either win the division by default or get a WC spot but it's hard to see them being anything more than one and done in the playoffs with this roster.

 

[mabden]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

I agree with everything, except the RBs.  I think if they didn't get hit until 3 yards, it wouldn't matter,  our RBs don't scare anyone.

Bills need a RB with speed, who can run a wheel route, and that opposing defenses need to game plan on.  When a play breaks down(lots lately)- having a RB who can make a play would help out Josh and Bills offense incredibly imo

 

Can't really know how good the RBs are until the OL starts opening some holes.  As good as Allen is with his legs, he had no where to go because the OL played like a sieve.

[Pete]

12 minutes ago, mabden said:

 

Can't really know how good the RBs are until the OL starts opening some holes.  As good as Allen is with his legs, he had no where to go because the OL played like a sieve.

The line is atrocious.  That we can agree on.  Still, Singletary has one 100 yard game and 5 TDs in his 3 year career.  Moss has zero.  How many years are you going to evaluate?

[Greg S]

Panthers just released RB Royce Freeman. He was a 3rd Rd pick. Any interest here in bringing him in?

[Logic]

Almost everything about this Bills team has come together this season the way it was supposed to. The defense is first in points allowed half way through the season. The special teams are pretty good and the kicker seems to be elite. The quarterback is (usually) playing at a high level and the receiving corps is talented and deep. The third year athletic marvel tight end is breaking out (injury notwithstanding). 

The one thing that has NOT come together the way it is supposed to this season? The offensive line. 

Beane seemed to bank on the idea that a return to full health for Feliciano and Ford and settling on a consistent, healthy starting five would mean that the offensive line would improve from the level at which it played last year. Unfortunately, Dawkins seems to be less than 100%, Williams regressed at right tackle, and the offensive guard situation has been an abomination.

Simply put: Beane miscalculated the offensive line situation, and it is costing the Bills football games. The Pittsburgh loss? Offensive line woes. The Tennessee loss? The defense owns some of the blame, too, but the failure to convert the sneak certainly was due largely to Dawkins being blown up. The Jaguars loss? Clearly the offensive line. They've directly contributed to, if not caused, all three losses.

There are lots of specifics that can be pointed to. Teller being traded away, Spain being released, Ford turning out to be a bust, Boettger and Bates not having developed enough to be counted on as quality starters. Whatever you blame, the fact remains: the offensive line stinks (as Gunner said, it's average on good weeks and abysmal on bad weeks), and it might be a fatal flaw. It can only be schemed around so much. At the end of the day, if opposing defenses (even lowly defenses like the Jaguars) can routinely get home with just four rushers, it's going to be a long day for the offense.

Hopefully, with Spencer Brown's return to the lineup and Williams moving back to right guard, we can get "passable" o-line play more often than "abysmal". If not, I don't see a Lombardi trophy in the immediate future.

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Logic