AuntieEm Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 7 hours ago, FireChans said: They have also put Josh in that category, based on that breathing on the passer call. Refs protect the big time QBs because the NFL wants them to. Also there some talk that can get heated in the midst of a close physical game. Then there's times when heated words exchanged when players feel a penalty is ignored. The ref criticism that Baker Mayfield brought up in post game will incur the fine he acknowledged. Don't know how much the criticism is gonna impact how calls go for and against him in future from his public complaint. I guess it depends how much clout his commercial sponsors have with the league. Its usually not a good idea to criticize referees as they have a lot they have to watch for and the game is so fast at times hard to always catch all the borderline and sometime blatant fouls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cage Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 (edited) I don't think games are fixed or that refs "favor a given team. But, I would like to see some stats on officiating crews in primetime (TNF, SNF, MNF, Thanksgiving games...). I want to put to bed in my own head that there's not a tendancy to over-officiate for the cameras. Also, I think there are definitely make-up calls. The Clark roughing is a good example of one that might not have been called if they didn't screw up the Morse holding on the play before. The Morse penalty was an enormous mistake. Allen had run for the first down and they set us back to 3rd and 17 way back in our zone. Edited October 12, 2021 by cage 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Claude Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 I can believe that there can be a subconscious bias toward star players - "DeAndre Hopkins couldn't have dropped that -- the CB must have gotten there early", home teams, and even perhaps teams that are regarded as well coached. I might even believe that particular referees may even have personal biases against particular players. However, to believe that the NFL tells officials to favor one team vs. another is to believe that either Goodell can keep this secret from 31 mostly billionaire owners or that these hyper-competitive owners get together and decide who is going to get the calls and who isn't. To me this is just completely lubricous. It is a sad statement on the critical thinking of society as a whole if many fans believe this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoMAn Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 10 hours ago, Buffalo619 said: Isn’t this common knowledge by now: https://www.distractify.com/p/nfl-scripted This is ridiculous. Sporting events are exceptionally entertaining, largely because of the unpredictability. If you stumbled onto any Hallmark movie while channel surfing, you'd instantly know how it will progress and end (so I've heard) before you switch over to the NFL Network channel. Football, possibly more than any other professional sport, has a high level of uncertainty throughout the 60 minutes. Numerous variables. A multitude of things that can happen. The big problem with officiating is the inconsistency in how different crews call penalties. Some are flag-happy. Others let minor infractions go if they determine it didn't effect the outcome of the play. Maybe the best officials who see everything are the ones we see as the worst. It's highly unlikely anything is 'fixed'. If it were, we'd have known long before some publicity-seeking journeyman RB made it a headline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_In_NH Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 Fans are way more biased than any officials. Holding (Defensive and Offensive), Pass Interference (Defensive and Offensive), illegal contact, late hits are all subjective to some degree so you get different humans with different interpretations in situations they are trying to see a lot in real time. They are not incompetent, they are doing a job that is really difficult. Are they are human and have unintentional biases sometimes when it comes to marque players/coaches? Yes probably at times that happens. There is no agenda to make the Chiefs win because they are 2-2, that is ludicrous and it would come out at some point...just like Grudens emails came out. Go back and watch games pre instant replay when it was commonplace to have a clear turnover called down by contact or a clear dropped INT called a turnover that absolutely changed the game. No one complains much about what is ruled a catch/not a catch like a few years back, they cleaned it up in the rule book with common sense. Officiating has gotten better over the years, not worse and its not close. What has also changed is expectations of fans, slow mo instant replay in high def, instant tweats and memes. Subjective penalties are a left over human element that are not easily solved with replay or new rule language, its part of the game. I agree with the OP, the gameday thread was hard to look at because of the volume of complaining about the refs. There were bad calls in the game, I agree. From reading the gameday thread there were dozens and dozens, probably hundreds of non calls against the Chiefs....on the flip side there were 0 non calls against the Bills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasteddie Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 8 hours ago, goldenboy81 said: If somebody would be kind to explain the offensive holding on the chiefs that resulted in a 1st and 5 for them. I've never recall seeing that before usually it would be 1st and 20. Ty I don't remember the exact down, but how this can happen is the play occurs on first down. The ball carrier/ receiver passes the yard to gain and a foul for holding occurs five yards past the yard to gain. The penalty is ten yards and repeat the previous down. Since the penalty happened past the yard to gain for a first down, they move the ball back 10 yards and replay first down. Thus, first and 5. I hope this scenario helps. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not at the table Karlos Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 NFL wants games to go down to the wire. Goodell said something about it around 2018 and since then there's been a lot of questionable calls that kept teams in games. There was something like 70% of games that came down to the last couple mins after he said this. I'll try to find an article. 9 hours ago, Warcodered said: If they are biased it's toward keeping the game interesting which still sucks. This is exactly it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted October 12, 2021 Author Share Posted October 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Billy Claude said: I can believe that there can be a subconscious bias toward star players - "DeAndre Hopkins couldn't have dropped that -- the CB must have gotten there early", home teams, and even perhaps teams that are regarded as well coached. I might even believe that particular referees may even have personal biases against particular players. However, to believe that the NFL tells officials to favor one team vs. another is to believe that either Goodell can keep this secret from 31 mostly billionaire owners or that these hyper-competitive owners get together and decide who is going to get the calls and who isn't. To me this is just completely lubricous. It is a sad statement on the critical thinking of society as a whole if many fans believe this. Pretty much this. Humans are notoriously bad secret-keepers so whenever there's talk of something conspiratorial the first question I ask myself is "For this to be true, how many people would need to be keeping this secret?". If the answer is any more than a few I consider it a very low percentage chance of being true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirAndrew Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 10 hours ago, fridge said: There is likely a bias towards the greats, and referees have placed Mahomes in that category. The only thing that bothers me is when drives stall and are extended by weak calls, and that goes both ways. Yeah, NFL officials are really bad, but that bias has always existed. I remember when you couldn’t throw a strike to Jeter during the Yankees championship runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call_Of_Ktulu Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 If Ed Olivers RTP was a flag then the one with the KC defender definitely was. The refs have been doing this for years, they always seem to flag us with ticky tac calls when we have a big play like a 3rd down conversion or a TD. I had to really contain myself on the holding call on Morse, I almost flew threw the drywall again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 12 hours ago, Buffalo619 said: Isn’t this common knowledge by now: https://www.distractify.com/p/nfl-scripted The character of "Benny Cunningham" keeps getting killed off... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_In_NH Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 10 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said: If Ed Olivers RTP was a flag then the one with the KC defender definitely was. The refs have been doing this for years, they always seem to flag us with ticky tac calls when we have a big play like a 3rd down conversion or a TD. I had to really contain myself on the holding call on Morse, I almost flew threw the drywall again. Do you think the call on KC was also "ticky tac"? Both calls, Oliver and the one on KC converted drivers that eventually led to TD's. KC had an INT wiped off the board. Or do you see the KC as obvious and egregious but the call on Oliver was ticky tac? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corta765 Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 Thank you for this. I read the Chiefs forum and they think Buffalo was gifted the game by the refs if your talking about who got more favorable calls. In general every fanbase thinks the refs are out for them. The biggest thing for me is how sensitive Bills fans are. I believe we were named the most sensitive fanbase in the NFL and like you said there is a heavy small market insecurity/us the against the world mindset our fans get regularly. Now that the team is winning I think that chip is much larger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviF Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 1 hour ago, SageAgainstTheMachine said: Pretty much this. Humans are notoriously bad secret-keepers so whenever there's talk of something conspiratorial the first question I ask myself is "For this to be true, how many people would need to be keeping this secret?". If the answer is any more than a few I consider it a very low percentage chance of being true. While not really related to the topic at hand the secret doesn't need to be kept indefinitely. The assumption that it does is a major flaw in this view on conspiracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Tim Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 I think we often when pissed will say it is intentional when we know it is incompetence, I know I say it Sunday but by Monday know they just suck. The issue is simply that inconsistency is going to favor one team or the other based on things that are not rule based. For example in the Pitt game one of the hold calls came because the Dlinemen threw his hands up, even though he was not held. The ability to manipulate officials that way should not happen. Also most officials are 60+ years old and can not get into position to make proper calls therefore rely on other indicators of fouls. NFL can fix it but choose not to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFLO Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 Tired of this narrative that both RTP's were bad calls and that the refs equally sucked for both teams. https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/roughing-the-passer/ https://twitter.com/MarkEnnis/status/1447408923615576068?s=20 Roughing the Mahomes was called on #91 Ed Oliver. Despite the words coming out of Collinsworth's useless mouth the hit was neither late or illegal for "below or at the knees" 1. The hit was not late as defined by the rule. Oliver had launched himself while Mahomes still had the ball and makes contact without taking any steps after the ball was released. "The Referee will use the release of the ball from the passer’s hand as his guideline that the passer is now fully protected; once a pass has been released by a passer, a rushing defender may make direct contact with the passer only up through the rusher’s first step after such release" 2. The hit area was not illegal, Mahomes was in the air with neither foot on the ground, and Oliver was being "blocked/fouled" into a lower point of attack by the O-line(Oliver was held by the chiefs o-lineman and sort of tackled from behind). "A rushing defender is prohibited from forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground, even if the initial contact is above the knee. It is not a foul if the defender is blocked (or fouled) into the passer and has no opportunity to avoid him". #50 Rousseau also hit Mahomes on this play, and was technically late as he takes 2 steps. He was also blocked/fouled from behind by the chiefs o-line. Roussea basically just loosely wrapped up Mahomes's legs from behind and bumps his head into Mahomes butt. Not enough force or violence to it to constitute a penalty This was called holding 1 play before the roughing on Allen. https://twitter.com/awfulannouncing/status/1447416098446401537?s=20 https://twitter.com/awfulannouncing/status/1447417193654734850?s=20 There was an egregious missed holding call favoring the Bills on this play before the roughing takes place, can't find a clip of it. Guess the refs decided to let it go after the phantom holding on the previous play? 1. The hit was late. Clark takes one step after Allen released the pass and makes contact with Allen(legal). He then takes a 2nd step to start to drive Allen into the ground(Late, illegal). 2. Clark illegally drove Allen into the ground and also landed on top of him with his bodyweight "When tackling a passer who is in a defenseless posture (e.g., during or just after throwing a pass), a defensive player must not unnecessarily or violently throw him down or land on top of him with all or most of the defender’s weight. Instead, the defensive player must strive to wrap up the passer with the defensive player’s arms and not land on the passer with all or most of his body weight." 3. #97 also dog piles onto Allen's legs 2-3 steps after Allen had released the pass. Not much force involved, but way late and unnecessary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 Bills penalties 10 for 103 yards , Chiefs 7 for 55 yards . Chiefs 2 fumbles , 2 int , Bills 0 turnovers https://www.google.com/search?q=nfl+scores+week+5&oq=nfl+scores&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0i131i433j0i131i433i512l6j0i433i512j0i131i433i512.6447j1j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#sie=m;/g/11nmctrg9_;6;/m/059yj;ms;fp;1;; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllin Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 I don't understand why they don't have refs with ear pieces and refs in a booth to relay that info in realtime down to the field refs for a second opinion. Would seem to help with any doubt of being casted on to them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 13 hours ago, fan_in_tx said: With all due respect, I believe it was a make up call for the phantom holding call the play before. No holding call then there is no need for Josh to be in that position and throw the pick. How could it be a make up call from the play before? I didn't see the refs gathering, looking at a monitor, and discovering there was no hold by Morse on that play, did you? Just like Oliver's RTP call, Clark's was boderline and got called. We all know the NFL is going to do their best to protect their star QB's and Mahomes and Allen are just that....stars that the NFL wants on display. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. K Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 (edited) I agree. The refs make terrible calls all the time (including in Sunday night's game) , but I don't think there are any conspiracies. I do think there can be subconscious bias in some situations, but it's not because the refs are in on some fix. Edited October 12, 2021 by Dr. K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, ticketssince61 said: To me it looked like JA jumped to make the throw and Clark hit him while he was already in the air This is true. It is also true that he drove Allen to the ground and landed on him with full body weight. Thats a foul. They changed that rule years ago. Edited October 12, 2021 by Scott7975 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 I have a problem with the inconsistency. In the first half there was a non-call where defender almost pulled Rousseau’s jersey off, it was in the open not in traffic, it was obvious. Later in the game a Chief’s drive was kept alive by defensive holding call where Bills DB, while falling got a handful of jersey and immediately let go. It did not affect the play. I find those things infuriating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobot Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 14 hours ago, fan_in_tx said: With all due respect, I believe it was a make up call for the phantom holding call the play before. No holding call then there is no need for Josh to be in that position and throw the pick. The defender did drive his weight into Allen, so per the rules it was 100% warranted. The phantom Offside should result in that official losing his job if there's not a warranted explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobot Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 1 hour ago, BFLO said: Tired of this narrative that both RTP's were bad calls and that the refs equally sucked for both teams. https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/roughing-the-passer/ https://twitter.com/MarkEnnis/status/1447408923615576068?s=20 Roughing the Mahomes was called on #91 Ed Oliver. Despite the words coming out of Collinsworth's useless mouth the hit was neither late or illegal for "below or at the knees" 1. The hit was not late as defined by the rule. Oliver had launched himself while Mahomes still had the ball and makes contact without taking any steps after the ball was released. "The Referee will use the release of the ball from the passer’s hand as his guideline that the passer is now fully protected; once a pass has been released by a passer, a rushing defender may make direct contact with the passer only up through the rusher’s first step after such release" 2. The hit area was not illegal, Mahomes was in the air with neither foot on the ground, and Oliver was being "blocked/fouled" into a lower point of attack by the O-line(Oliver was held by the chiefs o-lineman and sort of tackled from behind). "A rushing defender is prohibited from forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground, even if the initial contact is above the knee. It is not a foul if the defender is blocked (or fouled) into the passer and has no opportunity to avoid him". #50 Rousseau also hit Mahomes on this play, and was technically late as he takes 2 steps. He was also blocked/fouled from behind by the chiefs o-line. Roussea basically just loosely wrapped up Mahomes's legs from behind and bumps his head into Mahomes butt. Not enough force or violence to it to constitute a penalty Just to clarify, the Mahommes hit was fine, Allen hit was rightfully flagged? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 (edited) I fully believe that Refs (just like the WWE) control everything. League and NBC would not want a blowout on Sunday, and the Refs are the ones charged to make that happen. Tooo many times do I see the Refs make Phantom calls that slightly change the game. I do not think that Refs are deciding who wins and loses, but I ABSOLUTELY do think there is enough evidence out there to show that they will impact games to keep close (ratings, etc) this is why they always say good teams can overcome the refs. Think in terms of NBC and NFL, what would have been the worst outcome for Sunday Night - Bills 40s Chiefs 14. Same with Monday Night. They want those prime time games to generate as much ratings as possible, and the Refs keeping those games competitive is the exact way to do it. All about the $$$ and it is AWLAYS about the $$$ Edited October 12, 2021 by MAJBobby 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 PSA Don't bother yourself over officiating. Ever. The game is much more enjoyable this way. If one imbalanced call costs them the game.......you can rest assured your team didn't play well enough to deserve to win but maybe just enough to hope to win. The Bills have been on an epic run of blowouts. The idea that games have to be mostly one score affairs is because mediocrity is where most teams in the league exist. Mediocre teams and coaches consistently negotiate themselves into close games. But there are things players can do to avoid getting calls against them. The Bills can be better at that. Not diving at a QB's legs on 3rd and long when you are up 2 scores in the second half like Ed Oliver did......not grabbing a sealed and harmless DE in clear view of an official like Dawkins did on the long Moss run that was negated. These are things that the player can control and become more savvy about. I actually think we are seeing smarter play now......the benefits gained from all the experience this team has together.........but there is still obvious room for improvement from some vets that should know better. Another really big game under the belt should help them with composure in subsequent ones as well. Officiating in any sport is mostly about anticipation of potential penalty points.......without it the game moves too fast to call(which is how the inconceivable PI/tackle in the Rams/Saints NFCCG got blown). So a player has to know what's being looked for. And like it or not, you have to take the approach that human nature is that officials will be a little more focused on infractions that might hurt the trailing team. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cage Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 2 hours ago, mattynh said: Do you think the call on KC was also "ticky tac"? Both calls, Oliver and the one on KC converted drivers that eventually led to TD's. KC had an INT wiped off the board. Or do you see the KC as obvious and egregious but the call on Oliver was ticky tac? I didn't like the Oliver RTP, but he did go for the hit low on the legs, which does get flagged. I think the Clark RTP had nothing to do with that, it was a make-up on the Morse phantom hold that wiped out our first down the play before. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloFan68 Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 The way the refs were calling that game I didn't think we had a chance to win it but in hindsight, I now realize the refs were just trying to keep us from completely destroying KC in an embarrassing manor. Let's save that for the playoffs. Let's Go Buffalo!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloFan68 Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 19 minutes ago, cage said: I think the Clark RTP had nothing to do with that, it was a make-up on the Morse phantom hold that wiped out our first down the play before. So agree with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrbojanglezs Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 In today's world I assume corrupt until proven otherwise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LABILLBACKER Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 Sorry I don't buy it. The NFL has had the capacity to gently steer certain games any direction they want. And for advertising/revenue purposes they've been doing it for 30 years. Call it the Jordan rules or whatever term you want but it exists and you're naive to think otherwise. Our game starts off with 6 penalties in the 1st quarter. After the ignored Diggs PI and the Oliver late hit around the ankles I was convinced the Shield was trying to keep their cash cow player "in it". Its not like Mahomes had 7 different commercials running Sunday night. It got to the point where the Bills made it impossible for the refs to keep up this nonsense. It's been a part of football for many years. It's a shame..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTBill Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 32 fanbases think the refs are out to get them. The parity of the NFL where most games feel close enough to be won, makes every play overemphasized and if there is (or isn't) yellow, someone feels gipped. I think the refs do a heck of a job most of the time, the plays I really hate are the judgement calls where there is no safety net, flag is thrown or not thrown and you can't reverse that split second decision by one person who did/didn't see something. What changed in the NFL is just how close every game feels (imho). It used to be there were blowouts all of the time. I'll tell you one more thing. I'm a data analyst by trade - but I think this whole analytics thing has gone way too far in sports. Football has always been a game of inches, we don't need a micrometer to analyze every damn play and come up with a crazy statistic about it because we can. If that statistic has history enough to say - when XYZ happens, teams win (or lose) most of the time, those are important. Not the speed some guy ran on one play, or how tight the window was for the ball to be thrown. That's what players are paid to do - and what they've been doing since the game was born. Proof of why analytics are overdone? Josh Allen. He has something beyond analytics - and that just pisses the hell out of the analytics folks who think they know everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_In_NH Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, cage said: I didn't like the Oliver RTP, but he did go for the hit low on the legs, which does get flagged. I think the Clark RTP had nothing to do with that, it was a make-up on the Morse phantom hold that wiped out our first down the play before. I think Clark was guilty of RTP based on the bolded below. When they started with the enhanced RTP, the driving to the ground was a point of emphasis, you can make conact in the strike zone but you need to try and not drive them to the ground. It is tough to be a defender these days but I think Clark could have and should have eased off. I think it was a flag but dont think he is dirty or anything. The crew calling the game does not know the rule. https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/roughing-the-passer/ A rushing defender is prohibited from committing such intimidating and punishing acts as “stuffing” a passer into the ground or unnecessarily wrestling or driving him down after the passer has thrown the ball, even if the rusher makes his initial contact with the passer within the one-step limitation provided for in (a) above. When tackling a passer who is in a defenseless posture (e.g., during or just after throwing a pass), a defensive player must not unnecessarily or violently throw him down or land on top of him with all or most of the defender’s weight. Instead, the defensive player must strive to wrap up the passer with the defensive player’s arms and not land on the passer with all or most of his body weight. Also, this is why Oliver was guilty A rushing defender is prohibited from forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground, even if the initial contact is above the knee. It is not a foul if the defender is blocked (or fouled) into the passer and has no opportunity to avoid him. Edited October 12, 2021 by mattynh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFLO Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 40 minutes ago, mattynh said: I think Clark was guilty of RTP based on the bolded below. When they started with the enhanced RTP, the driving to the ground was a point of emphasis, you can make conact in the strike zone but you need to try and not drive them to the ground. It is tough to be a defender these days but I think Clark could have and should have eased off. I think it was a flag but dont think he is dirty or anything. The crew calling the game does not know the rule. https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/roughing-the-passer/ A rushing defender is prohibited from committing such intimidating and punishing acts as “stuffing” a passer into the ground or unnecessarily wrestling or driving him down after the passer has thrown the ball, even if the rusher makes his initial contact with the passer within the one-step limitation provided for in (a) above. When tackling a passer who is in a defenseless posture (e.g., during or just after throwing a pass), a defensive player must not unnecessarily or violently throw him down or land on top of him with all or most of the defender’s weight. Instead, the defensive player must strive to wrap up the passer with the defensive player’s arms and not land on the passer with all or most of his body weight. Also, this is why Oliver was guilty A rushing defender is prohibited from forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground, even if the initial contact is above the knee. It is not a foul if the defender is blocked (or fouled) into the passer and has no opportunity to avoid him. Oliver was not guilty. Read what you posted again, "forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground". Mahomes had both feet in the air so hitting him in the knees was perfectly legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_In_NH Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 7 minutes ago, BFLO said: Oliver was not guilty. Read what you posted again, "forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground". Mahomes had both feet in the air so hitting him in the knees was perfectly legal. Forcibly is subjective so that gets decided by the ref, not a Bills fan....I think it qualifies. But I agree on the feet on the ground aspect, initial contact happened with feet in the air. That is an interesting part of the rule, doubt the ref was looking for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFLO Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, mattynh said: Forcibly is subjective so that gets decided by the ref, not a Bills fan....I think it qualifies. But I agree on the feet on the ground aspect, initial contact happened with feet in the air. That is an interesting part of the rule, doubt the ref was looking for that. The amount of force is subjective, but luckily in this case it's entirely irrelevant as both feet were in the air, which is not subjective. Edit: Which makes this a legal hit as the hit was both on time and Mahomes was in the air, making the contact with the knees irrelevant. Edited October 12, 2021 by BFLO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_In_NH Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 13 minutes ago, BFLO said: The amount of force is subjective, but luckily in this case it's entirely irrelevant as both feet were in the air, which is not subjective. Edit: Which makes this a legal hit as the hit was both on time and Mahomes was in the air, making the contact with the knees irrelevant. Agree with you, force is irrelevant per the wording of the rule for the reason you cited. I did not catch his feet in the air during the game, I assumed at least one was on the ground. If I understand the rules (which I may not) you cannot hit the passer in the knees forcibly whether "on time" or not unless you are blocked into him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFLO Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 1 hour ago, mattynh said: Agree with you, force is irrelevant per the wording of the rule for the reason you cited. I did not catch his feet in the air during the game, I assumed at least one was on the ground. If I understand the rules (which I may not) you cannot hit the passer in the knees forcibly whether "on time" or not unless you are blocked into him. Correct, or if the passers feet were not on the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BananaB Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 There is a definite bias for some teams and some players. Might not be out to get the Bills but they are out to try to keep some games close, especially in primetime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearNorth Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 We have Blakeman's crew against the Titans. They were a bit flag happy last season in the Denver game, including 2 Offensive PI's and a bs roughing the passer call on Milano. Guess they were trying to keep it close [Bills won 48-19]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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