Jim Kelly (and others) had them too

[BillsFan619]

I don’t get why some are so quick to change their view of a player when a player goes through a slump. Yes, JA is in a slump. That said, it doesn’t mean he’s not a franchise QB or that 2020 (or even 2019) was a fluke.

 

Many greats go through slumps, it’s how they deal with them that count. Brady started 2-2 one year and won the Super Bowl. He lost his first game last year, then had an uneven first half of the season and then won the Super Bowl.

 

Mahomes isn’t in a slump but had an overthrow to a receiver in the end zone and a VERY bad looking interception that a rookie may not even throw that cost them in a one point loss to the Ravens the other night.

 

I get that some will say that Mahomes and Brady have earned the right to have these kind of slumps so let’s look at one of the best, if not the best QBs, the Bills have ever had in Jim Kelly (by the way, he’s my favorite player of all time)

 

Here’s a few examples of either a game that he didn’t play well in or even a longer period where he wasn’t the greatest.

 

Let’s start with 1988. The Bills went to the AFC championship game that year but lost to the Bucs 10 to 5 in December. The Bucs were the worst franchise in NFL history before they got Dungy and Gruden. And yes, you read that right, it was a baseball score (10 to 5). Here’s an article that talks about that game: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1988-12-05-8803100862-story,amp.html
 

If my memory serves me correctly, I believe there was a game where JK had 29 yards passing in the first half of a game. TWENTY NINE yards!
 

During JKs SB years, three of those years he was in the low to mid 60s when it comes to completion percentage. That said, one of his Super Bowl years his completion percentage was below 60% (58%). This same year he had 23 TDs to 19 INTs. The whole year was a “down” year relative to a couple other SB years.

 

Let’s break down 1993 which was a SB year as well as a year where his completion percentage was above 60%. In his first four games, he did not have a game that was over a 60% completion rate. One game his completion rate was 51%. Then, the next 10 out of 11 games he had a completion rate that was higher than 60% in each game. Oh, the one game that he wasn’t above 60%? He was 7 for 19 for 93 yards in a brutal shut out loss against Pittsburgh.

 

I realize that the league is different. I realize that completion percentages are higher nowadays. I realize that JK isn’t the greatest QB to ever play the game. That said, he is a Hall of Fame QB that went to four straight Super Bowls. The point is that JK and other QBs that are greater than him all go through slumps. It doesn’t mean they’re not franchise QBs, that other years were flukes or that they can’t be better later in the season when they play “said” team that is way better than the team they just struggled against.

 

Go JA! Go Bills!!

Edited September 22, 2021 by BillsFan619

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Is it possible to criticize a players performance and not jump off the bandwagon? I don't understand why pointing out Allen or any player/coach has performed poorly is some knock on our fan loyalty. It's just the truth. Do you think completing 17 or 33 passes is a good game? I actually didn't think the INT was a terrible throw. It was not great but it was also a great play by a top 3 DB. However the deep ball to Diggs was a terrible throw that Diggs bailed him out. In week one he misses Sanders by five yards and in week two he underthrew the ball to Diggs by five yards at least. 

He has to play better. I want a SB win. Nothing else matters at this point. And if they are to win the SB Allen has got to be as he was in 2020. 

That is not jumping off some proverbial bandwagon. Its an observation and an opinion that does not in any way diminish my loyalty to a team I follow from 2800 miles away.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

Yes, Kelly had some clunkers in there—I was at the 1993 brutal shutout loss to P-Burgh, a forgettable Monday night affair (he was knocked out of by injury), that also showcased the worst of the drunk 3Rivers crowd and helped cement my loathing of that franchise …and yet we went back to the ‘Bowl while they sat home after an early playoff exit. To the OP’s point, it’s not a straight line up, even with HOfers. We know Josh has the intangibles, the tools, abilities and coaching he needs in order to regain full game consistency, and I fully expect that to happen. 

[BillsFan619]

1 hour ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Is it possible to criticize a players performance and not jump off the bandwagon? I don't understand why pointing out Allen or any player/coach has performed poorly is some knock on our fan loyalty. It's just the truth. Do you think completing 17 or 33 passes is a good game? I actually didn't think the INT was a terrible throw. It was not great but it was also a great play by a top 3 DB. However the deep ball to Diggs was a terrible throw that Diggs bailed him out. In week one he misses Sanders by five yards and in week two he underthrew the ball to Diggs by five yards at least. 

He has to play better. I want a SB win. Nothing else matters at this point. And if they are to win the SB Allen has got to be as he was in 2020. 

That is not jumping off some proverbial bandwagon. Its an observation and an opinion that does not in any way diminish my loyalty to a team I follow from 2800 miles away.

I already admitted that JA was going through a slump. Maybe bandwagon wasn’t the best choice of words. Maybe changing their viewpoint on a player is a better way to say it (I’m going to change it in my original post).

 

I’m not talking about critique per se, I’m talking about people saying he’s not the franchise player we thought or one more bad game out of him or 2020 was a fluke or 2019 is who he really is or… just because of a slump. Even “2020” Josh had a slump that lasted around a month.

 

He’s a great player, a franchise QB and most likely a generational talent that’s going through a slump. That’s it. Like @NoHuddleKelly12 said, it’s not linear.

 

I want a SB win too but I’m not going to change my view (not saying you have) of JA just because of a slump or even a down year (if it continues).

 

Hope that makes sense. Thanks for sharing.

Edited September 22, 2021 by BillsFan619

[NickelCity]

Few of these threads have original-posts that are wildly off the mark, but my god, hasn't the point been made? Allen needs to play better, and it's likely he will. He showed a season of elite play. He's had two mediocre games to start the season, with poor throws as well as suspect protection. 

 

You're either on board, or you're not.

 

[MJS]

57 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Is it possible to criticize a players performance and not jump off the bandwagon? I don't understand why pointing out Allen or any player/coach has performed poorly is some knock on our fan loyalty. It's just the truth. Do you think completing 17 or 33 passes is a good game? I actually didn't think the INT was a terrible throw. It was not great but it was also a great play by a top 3 DB. However the deep ball to Diggs was a terrible throw that Diggs bailed him out. In week one he misses Sanders by five yards and in week two he underthrew the ball to Diggs by five yards at least. 

He has to play better. I want a SB win. Nothing else matters at this point. And if they are to win the SB Allen has got to be as he was in 2020. 

That is not jumping off some proverbial bandwagon. Its an observation and an opinion that does not in any way diminish my loyalty to a team I follow from 2800 miles away.

All of that is completely valid and accurate. But there are many fans who are taking it further and predicting that 2020 Josh Allen was a fluke, or that if Allen has one more bad game he should be labeled as "not very good", or that basically the season is over and it was a mistake that we paid Allen his big contract.

 

I don't think most people are arguing that Allen has not played poorly or that he doesn't need to improve. At most they might be spreading the blame around and also pointing out some valid (and some invalid) reasons that the passing game has struggled. But the neverending "the sky is falling!!!!" narrative after two games is a bit much and deserves to be called out, because it isn't true. The sky isn't falling. The Bills are still a quality team. Two below average passing games does not mean the Bills can never have a good passing game ever again. We have seen these very same players have great passing games and it is logical that they can, and probably will, have good games again.

[JoPoy88]

1 minute ago, NickelCity said:

Few of these threads have original-posts that are wildly off the mark, but my god, hasn't the point been made? Allen needs to play better, and it's likely he will. He showed a season of elite play. He's had two mediocre games to start the season, with poor throws as well as suspect protection. 

 

You're either on board, or you're not.

 

The contrarians about Allen have had their day now reactions like this are inevitably going to come. What else do you expect I guess.

[MJS]

1 minute ago, JoPoy88 said:

The contrarians about Allen have had their day now reactions like this are inevitably going to come. What else do you expect I guess.

And I expect 5 threads a day on this, on both sides of the argument, until Allen has definitively proven one side or the other correct. Just how it goes here.

[JoPoy88]

1 hour ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Is it possible to criticize a players performance and not jump off the bandwagon? I don't understand why pointing out Allen or any player/coach has performed poorly is some knock on our fan loyalty. It's just the truth. Do you think completing 17 or 33 passes is a good game? I actually didn't think the INT was a terrible throw. It was not great but it was also a great play by a top 3 DB. However the deep ball to Diggs was a terrible throw that Diggs bailed him out. In week one he misses Sanders by five yards and in week two he underthrew the ball to Diggs by five yards at least. 

He has to play better. I want a SB win. Nothing else matters at this point. And if they are to win the SB Allen has got to be as he was in 2020. 

That is not jumping off some proverbial bandwagon. Its an observation and an opinion that does not in any way diminish my loyalty to a team I follow from 2800 miles away.

It’s definitely possible, it depends on how you couch your criticism I suppose. Peeps around here (only some) tend to veer towards the hyperbolic. I think that’s what most have a problem with.

[JoPoy88]

7 minutes ago, MJS said:

And I expect 5 threads a day on this, on both sides of the argument, until Allen has definitively proven one side or the other correct. Just how it goes here.

Yep. It’s funny because some point to ridiculous, unprovable reasons like “it’s the new money” or “it’s the crowd in the stands” after 2 whole games, one was an away game.

 

idk, i think the kid earned a little more rope than 2 games after the season he put up last year. That’s just me. 

[BillsFan619]

1 hour ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Yes, Kelly had some clunkers in there—I was at the 1993 brutal shutout loss to P-Burgh, a forgettable Monday night affair (he was knocked out of by injury), that also showcased the worst of the drunk 3Rivers crowd and helped cement my loathing of that franchise …and yet we went back to the ‘Bowl while they sat home after an early playoff exit. To the OP’s point, it’s not a straight line up, even with HOfers. We know Josh has the intangibles, the tools, abilities and coaching he needs in order to regain full game consistency, and I fully expect that to happen. 

Bro, we have something in common besides our love for all things Bills and JK.

 

We both loathe the Steelers. They’re my worst team!

[billsbackto81]

You don't put a season like 2020 together and then all of a sudden forget how to play QB. Josh hasn't been awful but when compared to last season he is coming up short. I'd sooner give credit to the defensive adjustments teams have made to make his play less effective. Remember, they're pros and get paid as well. I have no doubt once he gets his anxiousness under control and stops trying to justify his contract on every throw he'll be fine. Their others to blame as well on offense, not just Josh. Daboll's playcalling has been a little head scratching and the O Line play has been less than stellar. 

[BillsFan619]

10 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

Yep. It’s funny because some point to ridiculous, unprovable reasons like “it’s the new money” or “it’s the crowd in the stands” after 2 whole games, one was an away game.

 

idk, i think the kid earned a little more rope than 2 games after the season he put up last year. That’s just me. 

I loved your thought about the hyperbolic. That’s why I was trying to bring a little bit of historical context to slumps.

 

Yes, he’s definitely earned a lot of rope. While I wouldn’t like it and hope it doesn’t happen, not even a down year (just like many greats have had) would change my view of JA.

Edited September 22, 2021 by BillsFan619

[PonyBoy]

Playing Devil's advocate here. Jim Kelly never made $250,000,000 during a contract. With the money comes the heat, fair or not.

[oldmanfan]

Calm the hell down.  We all know Josh has a tendency to try and put everything on his own shoulders, and the new contract likely has him thinking that he has to live up to that, so he might be pressing a bit.  Defenses have come up with a few things to challenge Daboll's offense, so he is going to have to scheme differently in response.  Then you have Kubiak's review in the News talking about how Josh is playing smarter.

 

We scored 35 points against a petty good defense this past Sunday.  The opener we didn't score much because their D front whipped  up on the O line.  We don't have to have the chicken little, sky is falling stuff.  Josh will be fine; his stats may actually be a little less than last year because he's maturing and realizing when to throw the ball away, plus it looks like we're going to resurrect the run game more.  

[RichRiderBills]

I dont think it does it justice of you dont look back on 1990 SB run and see the stats of Jimbo's first few games that year, including a huge loss in Miami. 

 

Still think he was 1st team All Pro that year.

 

The stats are worse than Allen's. Would probably drive the boards nuts.

[Mr. WEO]

Kelly had a higher career INT rate than Fitzy...

[Dopey]

Didn't read the op's post, but the title made me think we were talking mistresses on the side. 

[transient]

16 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

I dont think it does it justice of you dont look back on 1990 SB run and see the stats of Jimbo's first few games that year, including a huge loss in Miami. 

 

Still think he was 1st team All Pro that year.

 

The stats are worse than Allen's. Would probably drive the boards nuts.

 

9 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Kelly had a higher career INT rate than Fitzy...

I always knew Kelly was a bum. They should have benched him and started Reich. Oh, and Ralph is cheap. 

[Brennan Huff]

We need a “Vague Title” edit in the title to let us the know it’s a vague title 

[Niagara Bill]

WTF. Josh plays only slightly above average, a few fairweather fans panic and and it turns into a roasting of the greatest leader this franchise ever had. 

Winning in the NFL is hard, week after week. JK won more than his share and when he was not perfect his teammates like Thurman and Andre were.

Josh will too, if Diggs, Davis, Devin do their part. 

 

[Protocal69]

Josh didnt have his best game but in the 2nd half 3 out 5 2nd half possessions ended in a TD and the 1 possesion of which was the knell down so it was basically 3 out of 4 ended in a TD. Like I said in a previous post I think Josh found his groove in the 4th quarter and I expect a bounce back game from him on Sunday.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Protocal69

[K-9]

42 minutes ago, PonyBoy said:

Playing Devil's advocate here. Jim Kelly never made $250,000,000 during a contract. With the money comes the heat, fair or not.

Kelly was the highest paid player in the league at one time, but how much a player is paid has nothing to do with anything on the field.

[Big Turk]

I remember that the Patriots who were dreadful used to give those teams fits at least one game a year and actually beat us a time or two...

 

But the scores were ugly a lot of times...10-7, 13-10, etc..

[cwater10]

8 hours ago, BillsFan619 said:

The Bills hadn’t won the division yet when they lost this game. In fact, they had to wait until the final Sunday to beat the Jets to win the division.

Not looking to nitpick, but this is not accurate.  The 1988 Bills clinched the division by beating the Jets in mid November, week 12 before Thanksgiving in a very memorable, goal post tearing down event in rain and fog...  It was such a glorious moment in Bills history, couldn't let it pass unmentioned.  The loss to the Bucs, however DID cost them home field vs Bengals in AFC Championship Game.

 

But to the OP point, yes.. JK had horrible moments and slumps.  He was often horrible and great, all within the same game, or even half.  Josh will be fine!

Edited September 22, 2021 by cwater10

[zevo]

I agree with the OP, josh clearly hasn't had the success this year that he had last year but man people are quick to jump off the hype train.

[Matt_In_NH]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

Kelly had a higher career INT rate than Fitzy...

That is irrelevant, the game as a whole has changed a lot.

[Royale with Cheese]

2 hours ago, PonyBoy said:

Playing Devil's advocate here. Jim Kelly never made $250,000,000 during a contract. With the money comes the heat, fair or not.

 

Jim Kelly at one point was the highest paid QB in the league.

[Mr. WEO]

41 minutes ago, mattynh said:

That is irrelevant, the game as a whole has changed a lot.

 

 

There's more passing now, not less.  And Fitz, a guy who gets hammered for not being careful with the ball, still has fewer INTs per drop back than Kelly. In the early 90's there were about 550-600 INTS per year.  Now it's about 500-675.  Not a significant difference.

[Ned Flanders]

2 hours ago, Dopey said:

Didn't read the op's post, but the title made me think we were talking mistresses on the side. 

By the title, I thought it could have been hemorrhoids...

[BillsFan619]

2 hours ago, Niagara Bill said:

WTF. Josh plays only slightly above average, a few fairweather fans panic and and it turns into a roasting of the greatest leader this franchise ever had. 

Winning in the NFL is hard, week after week. JK won more than his share and when he was not perfect his teammates like Thurman and Andre were.

Josh will too, if Diggs, Davis, Devin do their part. 

 

For clarity, JK is my favorite player of all time. I wasn’t roasting him. I was sharing that even him, one of the best we’ve ever had, had slumps just like JA is facing now.

[Matt_In_NH]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

There's more passing now, not less.  And Fitz, a guy who gets hammered for not being careful with the ball, still has fewer INTs per drop back than Kelly. In the early 90's there were about 550-600 INTS per year.  Now it's about 500-675.  Not a significant difference.

but you referenced a TD:INT ratio so to compare over generations we will also need TD's in the 90s vs today, and you will see a very significant difference I think.

[corta765]

I was soo hoping as a Star Wars nerd this was going to end with Jim Kelly (and others) had the force too!

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, mattynh said:

but you referenced a TD:INT ratio so to compare over generations we will also need TD's in the 90s vs today, and you will see a very significant difference I think.

 

Nope:

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Kelly had a higher career INT rate than Fitzy...

 

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

There's more passing now, not less.  And Fitz, a guy who gets hammered for not being careful with the ball, still has fewer INTs per drop back than Kelly. In the early 90's there were about 550-600 INTS per year.  Now it's about 500-675.  Not a significant difference.

 

[TheBrownBear]

I agree with the OP.  We act like Josh Allen should look like last year's San Francisco game every week.  Go look at Aaron Rodgers last 8 games of 2019.  He had 1 game with a passer rating over 100 and not a single 300 yard passing game (in fact, 3 sub-200 yard games) during that stretch.  He's had similar stretches through his career and most of the other GOAT QBs have as well.  The only guys who probably avoided extended stretches of bad play during their primes were Peyton, Brady and (for now) Mahomes.  Josh will figure it out and get back on track.  He's too naturally gifted, smart and hardworking not to, imo.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

I am very confident Josh will be fine. He has the tools to be great and he has always been my number one choice from that draft class.

But for all of those posters that think just because he was great last year it is a certainty he will be great again, go check out Derek Anderson's career after his 2007 one year wonder with Cleveland. 

[Nihilarian]

4 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

I am very confident Josh will be fine. He has the tools to be great and he has always been my number one choice from that draft class.

But for all of those posters that think just because he was great last year it is a certainty he will be great again, go check out Derek Anderson's career after his 2007 one year wonder with Cleveland. 

I agree

 

Besides, the Bills just faced two very good defenses. Defenses have caught up to what Buffalo have been doing on offense and countering it. There are also other considerations. The league allowed more holding by the lines last season in my view... that they aren't allowing this year.

 

Brian Daboll and his game plans haven't been as good since last seasons Miami game. The Colts, Ravens playoff games. The Bills offense scored only 10 points against the Ravens all game and for whatever reason Baltimore chose not to blitz like they had in past games.

 

The Chiefs drew up a game plan in last seasons AFC Championship game to counter the Bills offense and Pittsburgh simply followed suit. 

 

Then you have the Bills starters only played together for 2 quarters all preseason.  Allen is targeting Sanders a lot in each game and he simply isn't catching everything like Brown used to do. 8 targets, 4 receptions. 6 targets, 2 receptions.  Sanders saw 77% of the snaps in the Miami game and Beas only saw 60%. Diggs 78%. 

 

The Bills have two games to get it together in facing Washington and Houston. Then they face KC & Tenn. Hopefully it's just the offense now showing everything it has before those big games. 

 

All this QB under a microscope stuff is lame IMHO. 

 

[Nextmanup]

15 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Is it possible to criticize a players performance and not jump off the bandwagon? I don't understand why pointing out Allen or any player/coach has performed poorly is some knock on our fan loyalty. It's just the truth. Do you think completing 17 or 33 passes is a good game? I actually didn't think the INT was a terrible throw. It was not great but it was also a great play by a top 3 DB. However the deep ball to Diggs was a terrible throw that Diggs bailed him out. In week one he misses Sanders by five yards and in week two he underthrew the ball to Diggs by five yards at least. 

He has to play better. I want a SB win. Nothing else matters at this point. And if they are to win the SB Allen has got to be as he was in 2020. 

That is not jumping off some proverbial bandwagon. Its an observation and an opinion that does not in any way diminish my loyalty to a team I follow from 2800 miles away.

I like the cut of your jib.

 

I wish I could buy you a beer.

 

 

[BillsFan619]

18 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

You don't put a season like 2020 together and then all of a sudden forget how to play QB. Josh hasn't been awful but when compared to last season he is coming up short. I'd sooner give credit to the defensive adjustments teams have made to make his play less effective. Remember, they're pros and get paid as well. I have no doubt once he gets his anxiousness under control and stops trying to justify his contract on every throw he'll be fine. Their others to blame as well on offense, not just Josh. Daboll's playcalling has been a little head scratching and the O Line play has been less than stellar. 

Bro, that’s a great point. Like you said, you don’t have as great of a season as he had and then forget how to play QB.

[BillsFan619]

On 9/22/2021 at 6:29 AM, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Jim Kelly at one point was the highest paid QB in the league.

You’re right, Royale!

 

The contract was so little compared to today’s money. In 1986 he signed a 5 year deal for $7.5M. Not per year, $7.5M was the total. WOW!

 

Crazy, huh?