If Allen can't fix this fumbling issue, we aren't going very far

[PatsFanNH]

1 minute ago, IronMaidenBills said:

If I wanted close I’d play horseshoes. 

Brady and Ben get the ball out really quickly. Josh has to learn to do this when faced with a good defensive front. If not, he needs to advocate for more screens and rollouts. 

They should call for more screens when they see how the game is going.  EhT you are telling me is it sounds like it’s on your OC more than anyone else for not modifying the game plan.  (Same happened to my team when our dumb ass OC continued using Harris even though it was obvious to everyone he was spent. The fumble was on him not Harris IMO and as an example.)

[RobbRiddick]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

The one he lost was a blind side sack strip. It happens to everyone. Mario did it to Ben in the same game. Not a whole lot you can do when a guy you don't see coming smacks the ball while you're holding it in one hand trying to get a pass off.

 

Agreed. There's no doubt Josh can be reckless, but it seems like every time he's involved in a bad play it gets brought down to 'sugar high' Josh. Every QB fumbles and every QB throws INTs and every QB takes sacks but the narrative with Allen is that whenever any of those things happen, in any circumstances, it's "same old Josh". 

[Royale with Cheese]

10 minutes ago, IronMaidenBills said:

None of it matters. I don’t care how far it went. Warning track power. It means nothing, it’s still an out. Super bowl win or bust, everything else is a failure and needs to be fixed. 

 

Okay so then you agree the Chiefs last year didn't make it far.  Only TB.  That's the definition.  

[Milanos Milano]

5 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Okay so then you agree the Chiefs last year didn't make it far.  Only TB.  That's the definition.  

Yes. Going far means nothing unless you win the race. 

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, IronMaidenBills said:

Yes. Going far means nothing unless you win the race. 

 

That's not what the post and reply were about and you know it.  You just want to be negative.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Royale with Cheese

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

It’s an issue for sure, but if I recall, we got to the AFCCG last season and this wasn’t the reason we lost

[Beast]

33 minutes ago, IronMaidenBills said:

 

Brady and Ben get the ball out really quickly. Josh has to learn to do this when faced with a good defensive front. If not, he needs to advocate for more screens and rollouts. 

 

Screen passes are not effective when a team is only rushing 4, or sometimes even 3, like Pittsburgh did yesterday.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Beast

[Milanos Milano]

Just now, Beast said:

 

Screen passes are not effective when a team is only rushing 4, or sometimes even 3, like Pottsburgh did yesterday.

You have to try, we never did. We didn’t even rollout. 

[GreggTX]

The OP is correct. I don't put all the blame on Josh, of course, but it's a real problem. He has consistently been among the top fumblers in the league. What irks me is the fact that there's simply no reason for it. It's all in his mind. The coaches need to step in and correct the problem, but they don't.

[The Wiz]

2 hours ago, Johnnycage46 said:

We should get a separate thread for every single reason why "the Bills won't go very far...if x,y,z doesn't go right".

If the Bills keep losing games, they aren't gonna go far. 

[Nextmanup]

I love how folks rush to defend Josh's terrible fumbling habit focusing on other issues instead.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right! 

 

The fumbling wasn't why we lost yesterday, and it may never keep us out of a Super Bowl appearance...but it's still a huge problem and should have been cleaned up by now! 

 

I can't believe the way he continues to grip the ball with 1 hand and wave it around with an outstretched arm as he scrambles...that crap should have been coached out of him a LONG time ago...

 

It needs to get cleaned up! 

 

But much more importantly, he needs to consistently read defenses and throw the ball accurately.

It would also help tremendously if he could learn to complete a deep pass--something he is literally incapable of doing most of the time.

 

 

[Eastport bills]

2 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

I haven't seen this discussed much and feel it deserves its own thread. 

2 more fumbles yesterday! 1 turnover,  but this has plauged him threw 3 years and was expecting him to clean this up entering this year. 

Plan and simple, if Allen can't find a resolution to this issue and it continues to impact his game, I don't think we ever make it out of the AFC. 

His fumbling is not going cost us the season but he must protect the ball better. Josh should not be the primary runner in our attack. It's bad on so many levels. Let's let him do his thing after going through progressions, and there's open space. He was an option for Dabol with playcalling and Pittsburgh was ready. We need to get away from calling his # for a few games. He took some big hits Sunday. 

[artmalibu]

With the defensive fronts Pitt was using, they need to run the ball.   I felt that they were being challenged to run, and they passed twice as much as running.   

 

I get that Pitt is a good team, but when the opposing D challenges you to do something you need to make them pay.  The bills averaged 4.7 per rush so why all the passing? 

 

Not a good sign when the top RB only had 2 more runs than the QB.

 

If the Bills are to beat the better teams the Offensive game planning needs to be better.    

Edited September 13, 2021 by artmalibu

[JerseyBills]

1 hour ago, IronMaidenBills said:

If I wanted close I’d play horseshoes. 

Brady and Ben get the ball out really quickly. Josh has to learn to do this when faced with a good defensive front. If not, he needs to advocate for more screens and rollouts. 

Absolutely agree

Idk why ppl are disagreeing with you or my post.

Allen has had these issues for 3 seasons and I was hoping he would limit these mistakes at least in year 4. 

 

I understand it was 1 game. I understand it was against a very good defense but i hold Josh to extremely high standards, considering his contract and career trajectory. 

 

He played very mediocre yesterday and this fumbling issue will lose us games in the playoffs or big reg season gms. It was a huge play yesterday,  momentum shifter.

This needs to change... 

Edited September 13, 2021 by JerseyBills

[Billl]

2 hours ago, PatsFanNH said:

They should call for more screens when they see how the game is going.  EhT you are telling me is it sounds like it’s on your OC more than anyone else for not modifying the game plan.  (Same happened to my team when our dumb ass OC continued using Harris even though it was obvious to everyone he was spent. The fumble was on him not Harris IMO and as an example.)

What happened in the game to make you think screens would work?  Pittsburgh wasn't blitzing.  They were getting home with their front four and dropping 7.  Screens don't work against that.

[WizdomCalling]

Two words ... Grip master.

 

I have been beating the drum for this guy to work on his fumbling since year one. I guess the analytics say it isnt an issue? Come on we used to have a drill in highschool where you would have to protect the football all day everyday while everyone around you tries to knock it out of your hands. There has to be something this brain trust can do.

[UKBillFan]

So just to make it clear, reading this thread, we’re expecting to get deep into the post season with a lead quarterback who:

- Constantly fumbles the ball

- Cannot read a defense

- Cannot execute deep throws

 

???

 

All I can say is we certainly defied expectation last year based on the above.

[Mikie2times]

I would really like to see Josh stop with the pocket stiff arm. I've never seen another player even do it once and he does it 2-3 times a game. Like a DL straight at him, you got the ball in your other hand flailing around. He makes magic out of it once in a blue moon, it's just a reckless play with poor risk to reward.  

[PatsFanNH]

12 minutes ago, Billl said:

What happened in the game to make you think screens would work?  Pittsburgh wasn't blitzing.  They were getting home with their front four and dropping 7.  Screens don't work against that.

Yes they do Pats did it all the time you still can get one lineman out there to block for him. It slows the pass rush down because the play is so quick. Also why you call quick slants etc. things designed get the ball out quickly. 

[Simon]

3 hours ago, 34-78-83 said:

Was Allen off some yesterday and feeling that Pittsburgh rush? Yes for sure!

 

Now -

 

Did EITHER team remotely complete any short OR long TOUCH PASSES with any consistency?

Did any of you see fairly common throws from both QB's go over the head of the target or even suddenly into the dirt?

 

If you answered No and Yes you are correct, AND isn't that odd that both QB's seemed affected equally with those?

 

Last question - did any of you who attended the game throw the football around in the parking lot at all, or see any who were doing so?

 

Just asking. There are many factors that affect each game uniquely.

 

 

 

To clarify - this is for the other complaints in Josh's game yesterday discussed in this thread, not regarding the fumbles!

 

 

I was wondering if it was windy up there yesterday.

Then I saw Coach go for it on 4th/8 from the 35.

That seemed to answer that question. 🌬️💨💨

[auburnbillsbacker]

Fixing his fumbling problem would result in him either accepting sacks or grounding the ball. I'd rather see him try to extend the play when our line sucks and accept the occasional fumble. 

 

I get what you are saying though. 

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

Josh carries the ball like a loaf of bread when he runs

[WizdomCalling]

1 hour ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Josh carries the ball like a loaf of bread when he runs

He learned from shady McCoy

[34-78-83]

4 hours ago, Simon said:

 

I was wondering if it was windy up there yesterday.

Then I saw Coach go for it on 4th/8 from the 35.

That seemed to answer that question. 🌬️💨💨

Perceptive fella you were 😀

[Governor]

8 hours ago, RobbRiddick said:

 

Agreed. There's no doubt Josh can be reckless, but it seems like every time he's involved in a bad play it gets brought down to 'sugar high' Josh. Every QB fumbles and every QB throws INTs and every QB takes sacks but the narrative with Allen is that whenever any of those things happen, in any circumstances, it's "same old Josh". 

That’s because he fumbles in every game. Lol.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

10 hours ago, TBBills said:

Bills went very far last year.

 

Exactly. And in the playoffs it was the only one out of the three games that Allen didn't have a fumble that he had his worst overall performance.  I rather Allen not fumble as well but it's not as bad as throwing and INT. A fumble you have a 50/50 chance of recovering. An INT is 100% a turnover. He's cut way back on the INT's in general. So if we are talking essentially one turnover a game from the QB, as long as that QB is also making plays, Bills will be fine. Could it cost the Bills a playoff game? Sure it could. But it didn't last year. And I would feel very confident in saying rarely will it be the reason for a postseason loss. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Josh carries the ball like a loaf of bread when he runs

 

He reformed and started carrying it properly midway through 2019.  He backslid last season.  I feel certain our coaches will give him a "gentle reminder"

19 minutes ago, Governor said:

That’s because he fumbles in every game. Lol.

 

Logic

 

The Bills played 19 games last season

Josh Allen fumbled 11 times in 10 different games last season

Therefore he does not fumble in every game

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

7 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Absolutely agree

Idk why ppl are disagreeing with you or my post.

Allen has had these issues for 3 seasons and I was hoping he would limit these mistakes at least in year 4. 

 

Seeing the same result for 3+ years and expecting something different is on you is how the old saying goes.  I 100% don't expect the fumbling issue to ever go away with Allen. Does that make me afraid or think less of Allen as our franchise QB? Not in the least. I'd say the comp would be Brett Favre where you knew every now and then he was just going to absolutely crush you with a boneheaded INT. 

 

I'll be concerned if Allen's positives no longer greatly out weigh his bad side. Sunday was not a good game for him. And it wasn't because of the turnovers. Hell, Brady threw 3 INT's in one half of last year's NFCCG. A good QB should easily be able to over come one turnover. The fact that Allen and the offense really couldn't make any big plays on Sunday was what was most concerning to me. Unless last year was a total fluke we shouldn't have to worry about a lack of big plays and production over the long haul from Allen.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, Simon said:

 

I was wondering if it was windy up there yesterday.

Then I saw Coach go for it on 4th/8 from the 35.

That seemed to answer that question. 🌬️💨💨

 

Someone who was at the game said in the postgame thread that it was very windy and you could tell it was affecting both QBs

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

He reformed and started carrying it properly midway through 2019.  He backslid last season.  I feel certain our coaches will give him a "gentle reminder"

 

Logic

 

The Bills played 19 games last season

Josh Allen fumbled 11 times in 10 different games last season

Therefore he does not fumble in every game

 

Yep. And I am seeing 9 different games instead of 10. And of the 11 fumbles off the top of my head at least one last year was 100% on Zack Moss but credited to Allen simply because Allen was the one who last controlled the ball. 

 

No doubt Allen fumbles far more than average for a QB but it is getting blown out of proportion if we think it is a serious issue to be concerned with. As others have noted already far more concerning may be his lack of touch on deep balls. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

57 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Yep. And I am seeing 9 different games instead of 10. And of the 11 fumbles off the top of my head at least one last year was 100% on Zack Moss but credited to Allen simply because Allen was the one who last controlled the ball. 

 

No doubt Allen fumbles far more than average for a QB but it is getting blown out of proportion if we think it is a serious issue to be concerned with. As others have noted already far more concerning may be his lack of touch on deep balls. 

 

Right you are, my bad - 9 different games.  And yes, there are situations like a fumbled Center-QB exchange where close examination says it's on Morse but Allen gets credited with it, or with Zach Moss where it's on Zach but Allen gets credited with it.

 

It's an issue that Allen carries the ball like a loaf of bread when he runs, instead of properly cradled against his body.  Even if he gets away with it most times, it's still a problem, and it should be corrected because unlike connecting on a deep ball which depend on a whole crew  (OL, WR etc), it's something Allen can 100% control.  Control what you can Control.

 

But he's still gonna fumble on sacks and sometimes at the "mesh point" where he's making the decision to transition from passer to runner

 

Just for reference, Lamar Jackson (who I haven't heard of as having a fumbling problem) fumbled 11 times last year in 17 games.  Kyler Murray fumbled 9 times in 16 games.  Deshaun Watson fumbled 8 times last season in 16 games, 11 times in 17 games in 2019.  Russ Wilson fumbled 7 times last season in 17 games, but earlier in his career he had seasons where he fumbled 12, 13, 14 times per season! 

I pick these guys as examples because they are all dual-threat QBs and Wilson, like Allen, tends to hang on to the ball a long time and scramble around looking for plays. 

 

Again, I'm not saying it's good, but an apples-to-apples comparison to other dual threat QBs may give perspective.

 

 

[HOUSE]

Fumbles are a bad thing. I remember when George Allen benched Roman Gabriel for fumbling 4 times in 2 weeks

 

I will try a quote here " The ball is your paycheck, don't leave it laying around "

 

 

.

Edited September 14, 2021 by HOUSE

[Tenhigh]

5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Someone who was at the game said in the postgame thread that it was very windy and you could tell it was affecting both QBs

 

 

It was windy.

13 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Was told all off-season Allen doesn’t have a problem with deep throws and I’m just being negative….. 

To be fair, you are REALLY negative. .

Edited September 14, 2021 by Tenhigh

[Tenhigh]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Yea….. but it’s been a pretty obvious flaw of his.

Lol, ditto.  

[Don Otreply]

He is rather cavalier in that he doesn’t actually protect the ball when he runs, 

 

as to protecting the ball, 

“there is do or not do, there is no try”…

 

Go Bills!!!

[Jay_Fixit]

This and the MNF broadcast is unwatchable threads are two I’m gonna keep my eye on.

[killshot]

Cut him and save 258m. Sign Cam for 1m . 

 

[John from Riverside]

Interesting he was fumbling it all over the place last year and we made the AFC championship

[Tenhigh]

1 hour ago, Jay_Fixit said:

This and the MNF broadcast is unwatchable threads are two I’m gonna keep my eye on.

Masochist?

[Patrick Duffy]

Unfortunately it may not get "fixed" as much as we'd like. I mean he and coaches are fully aware and have been aware for going on 3 years that it's an issue and running plays are still called quite a bit for him. I think it may just be one of those things that sticks with him.

 

With that said, I don't think it's a big enough issue that keeps the team from "going far".  Sure it could happen in an crucial point in a game that could possibly be a big reason for a loss. But won't determine how far they can get in the long run