MAJBobby Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: There isn't much starting experience there but there is some talent for sure. Good thing we have Starters in Poyer and Hyde 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 minute ago, stevewin said: Comparing the importance of gunner vs kicker is obviously not a great comparison. Kickoffs/FGs/EPs vs one of 11 on coverage for maybe 3-4 plays (returnable kicks) a game - and realistically the gunner isn't even involved in the tackle for all of those. Indeed but nor is a starting gunner a good comparison to a 6th or 7th receiver or a 6th or 7th defensive end who is likely nothing but a backup all year. Kumerow had 1 catch last season (I know he wasn't here all year) but Jones made 6 special teams stops. Who had the biggest impact on the Bills winning? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Indeed but nor is a starting gunner a good comparison to a 6th or 7th receiver or a 6th or 7th defensive end who is likely nothing but a backup all year. Kumerow had 1 catch last season (I know he wasn't here all year) but Jones made 6 special teams stops. Who had the biggest impact on the Bills winning? Kunerow literally helped us win that game with that amazing TD catch. And why is it everyone acts like ONLY Taiwan was capable of playing gunner and making those 6 stops? This guy is not some HOF ST player, but he’s talked about as it he is utterly irreplaceable as a gunner. I’d rather have the TD catch that actually wins us games and I’m fully confident in Kumerow or someone else contributing to replacing and making those same 6 ST stops. Edited August 31, 2021 by Alphadawg7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 Come on Brandon one more trade and then announce your cuts! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Kunerow literally helped us win that game with that amazing TD catch. And why is it everyone acts like ONLY Taiwan was capable of playing gunner and making those 6 stops? This guy is not some HOF ST player, but he’s talked about as it he is utterly irreplaceable as a gunner. I’d rather have the TD catch that actually wins us games Yeah we might of had to beat them by only 22 instead of 29. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Kunerow literally helped us win that game with that amazing TD catch. And why is it everyone acts like ONLY Taiwan was capable of playing gunner and making those 6 stops? This guy is not some HOF ST player, but he’s talked about as it he is utterly irreplaceable as a gunner. I’d rather have the TD catch that actually wins us games and I’m fully confident in Kumerow or someone else contributing to replacing and making those same 6 ST stops. Kumerow had 1 catch. Taiwan isn't the only gunner capable of it. But he is the BEST gunner of the options. And this is a Superbowl contending team. You don't make yourselves weaker at a position that plays lots of snaps to keep a guy who plays barely any. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Kunerow literally helped us win that game with that amazing TD catch. And why is it everyone acts like ONLY Taiwan was capable of playing gunner and making those 6 stops? This guy is not some HOF ST player, but he’s talked about as it he is utterly irreplaceable as a gunner. I’d rather have the TD catch that actually wins us games Kumerow was waived last year and didn't even finish the season on the team, and now he's an irreplaceable part of the organization? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSE Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 minute ago, dneveu said: Kumerow was waived last year and didn't even finish the season on the team, and now he's an irreplaceable part of the organization? Amazing huh ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewin Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Indeed but nor is a starting gunner a good comparison to a 6th or 7th receiver or a 6th or 7th defensive end who is likely nothing but a backup all year. Kumerow had 1 catch last season (I know he wasn't here all year) but Jones made 6 special teams stops. Who had the biggest impact on the Bills winning? Are you saying Jones made 6 ST stops all season? I might use that as more evidence to say he's expendable 😛 Getting off Kumerow specifically (who no doubt will have more than 1 catch this year), I do think there are multiple positions where having an extra position player for depth in case of injury/circustance is more useful. I also think if a single gunner doesn't make a coverage tackle on a good STs unit, comeone else will - and this year the actual number of returned kicks/game is potentially going to be very low. Don't think either of us are going to convince the other at this point - Peace 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 4 minutes ago, Warcodered said: Yeah we might of had to beat them by only 22 instead of 29. I am just saying he contributed to that win because wins and losses are determined by the scoreboard. Give me the guy who helps put points on the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterStrategist Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 minute ago, GunnerBill said: Kumerow had 1 catch. Taiwan isn't the only gunner capable of it. But he is the BEST gunner of the options. And this is a Superbowl contending team. You don't make yourselves weaker at a position that plays lots of snaps to keep a guy who plays barely any. I'm back and forth on this. I'd probably prefer Jones if I knew our WRs will stay healthy all season. But chances of that are low. I see Kumerow as a likely insurance policy, that is worth the drop off at gunner to have another reliable WR, big bodied guy, to round out the WR group. Agree there is a decent chance Kumerow would be inactive on gamedays if he and Jones both made the team (as it stands now, assuming McKenzie and Speedy are healthy), but i think only 1 will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 3 minutes ago, dneveu said: Kumerow was waived last year and didn't even finish the season on the team, and now he's an irreplaceable part of the organization? No, didn’t say that. I am saying give me a player who contributes more than a one dimensional ST player who isn’t irreplaceable even at his gunner duties. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: I am just saying he contributed to that win because wins and losses are determined by the scoreboard. Give me the guy who helps put points on the board. By that logic why do we even care about defense? Just because his contributions are not as obvious as a WR catching a TD doesn't make them irrelevant. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Kumerow had 1 catch. Taiwan isn't the only gunner capable of it. But he is the BEST gunner of the options. And this is a Superbowl contending team. You don't make yourselves weaker at a position that plays lots of snaps to keep a guy who plays barely any. You already said it’s not fair to talk about one catch for Kumerow given his short stint on the roster. And his tiny time on the team, he arguably contributed more to our record than Taiwan did over a whole season because Taiwan didn’t do anything last season another gunner couldn’t do. But Taiwan won’t ever make a play on offense. Your argument here is weak because you and I both know that Kumerow is fully capable to fill in for Taiwan as gunner (or others) with similar production there, while we also know Taiwan isn’t ever going to produce any offensive points, or even yards, during the season. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: No, didn’t say that. I am saying give me a player who contributes more than a one dimensional ST player who isn’t irreplaceable even at his gunner duties. Finding a receiver on a PS elsewhere to replace Kumerow is to my mind a LOT easier than finding a gunner as good as Taiwan. 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 Just now, GunnerBill said: Finding a receiver on a PS elsewhere to replace Kumerow is to my mind a LOT easier than finding a gunner as good as Taiwan. What?? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 minute ago, stevewin said: Are you saying Jones made 6 ST stops all season? I might use that as more evidence to say he's expendable 😛 Getting off Kumerow specifically (who no doubt will have more than 1 catch this year), I do think there are multiple positions where having an extra position player for depth in case of injury/circustance is more useful. I also think if a single gunner doesn't make a coverage tackle on a good STs unit, comeone else will - and this year the actual number of returned kicks/game is potentially going to be very low. Don't think either of us are going to convince the other at this point - Peace Not really sure why this has turned into a "Jones vs Kumerow" debate. But the point remains: how far do you dismantle what was a strong unit last season. Roberts, D. Johnson, J. Johnson is currently injured, and we should drop an elite gunner, to boot? It's not just about how many stops a single player got. Special teams is crucial to getting good field position. That's important! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Warcodered said: By that logic why do we even care about defense? Just because his contributions are not as obvious as a WR catching a TD doesn't make them irrelevant. What does this have to do with defense? Some of you guys act like no one in the NFL is capable of making the same SINGLE DIGIT number of ST plays Taiwan did over a full season. I hope some of you buy his jersey, he is obviously irreplaceable and that good lol Edited August 31, 2021 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said: You already said it’s not fair to talk about one catch for Kumerow given his short stint on the roster. And his tiny time on the team, he arguably contributed more to our record than Taiwan did over a whole season because Taiwan didn’t do anything last season another gunner couldn’t do. But Taiwan won’t ever make a play on offense. Your argument here is weak because you and I both know that Kumerow is fully capable to fill in for Taiwan as gunner (or others) with similar production there, while we also know Taiwan isn’t ever going to produce any offensive points, or even yards, during the season. I don't accept either of the bolded. Just now, Rocky Landing said: Not really sure why this has turned into a "Jones vs Kumerow" debate. But the point remains: how far do you dismantle what was a strong unit last season. Roberts, D. Johnson, J. Johnson is currently injured, and we should drop an elite gunner, to boot? It's not just about how many stops a single player got. Special teams is crucial to getting good field position. That's important! Indeed to be clear I'd keep both. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 minute ago, GunnerBill said: I don't accept either of the bolded. Well that’s inconsistent with other posts you’ve made referencing Kumerow being capable of playing gunner (even though you felt Taiwan was better) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmoorman4jesus Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 T. Jones absolutely is not worthy of a roster spot. If they used him as a KR or PR as well as the 3rd RB on game day…fine. The guy might be good at what he does, but not good enough to warrant the spot. This is a talented roster. Unless you plan to start giving him the ball here and there, cut him. 1 1 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 4 pm is taking an awful long time to get here. 1 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SectionC3 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 22 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Indeed but nor is a starting gunner a good comparison to a 6th or 7th receiver or a 6th or 7th defensive end who is likely nothing but a backup all year. Kumerow had 1 catch last season (I know he wasn't here all year) but Jones made 6 special teams stops. Who had the biggest impact on the Bills winning? And I’m sure he forced a few fair catches, too. Jones is good. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherlock Holmes Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I don't accept either of the bolded. Indeed to be clear I'd keep both. But Kumerow slightly more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Well that’s inconsistent with other posts you’ve made referencing Kumerow being capable of playing gunner (even though you felt Taiwan was better) I think he can. But I don't think he can do it nearly as well as Jones. It is a downgrade and one the Bills have no need to make. I might feel different about if we were saying it is a downgrade for a 23 year old we still have 3 years of club control on. But they are both 1 year players and Kumerow is 29. Edited August 31, 2021 by GunnerBill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 minute ago, Dr. Who said: 4 pm is taking an awful long time to get here. Ive heard it comes at the same time every day. I have kept up enough to verify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaFitz1 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 (edited) How about this - So the depth chart as it stands now and bold preceived to be safe: WR - Emmanuel Sanders, Gabriel Davis, Isaiah Hodgins LT - Dion Dawkins, Spencer Brown, Tommy Doyle LG -Jon Feliciano, Jordan Devey C - Mitch Morse, Ryan Bates RG - Cody Ford, Ike Boettger RT - Daryl Williams, Bobby Hart TE - Dawson Knox, Tommy Sweeney QB - Josh Allen, Mitchell Trubisky, Davis Webb, Jake Fromm RB - Devin Singletary, Zack Moss, Matt Breida, Taiwan Jones, Christian Wade (roster exemption) FB - Reggie Gilliam WR - Cole Beasley, Isaiah McKenzie WR - Stefon Diggs, Jake Kumerow, Marquez Stevenson Offense - 31 (counting Wade) LDE - Jerry Hughes, Greg Rousseau, Efe Obada DT - Ed Oliver, Justin Zimmer, Brandin Bryant, Treyvon Hester DT - Star Lotulelei, Vernon Butler, Harrison Phillips RDE - Mario Addison, A.J. Epenesa, Boogie Basham, Mike Love MLB - Tremaine Edmunds, Tyrel Dodson, Tyler Matakevich, Marquel Lee WLB - Matt Milano, A.J. Klein, Andre Smith, Joe Giles-Harris NCB - Taron Johnson, Siran Neal CB - Tre'Davious White, Rachad Wildgoose, Nick McCloud CB - Levi Wallace, Dane Jackson, Olaijah Griffin S - Jordan Poyer, Damar Hamlin S - Micah Hyde, Jaquan Johnson Defense - 34 Special Teams - 3 That makes 46 - Which are going to go in the next 30 mins? Edited August 31, 2021 by FlaFitz1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigo Montoya Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 RB Kerrith Whyte WR Rico Gafford WR Tanner Gentry WR Lance Lenoir WR Brandon Powell WR Duke Williams TE Jacob Hollister TE Bug Howard OG Jamil Douglas OG Steven Gonzalez OG Forrest Lamp OL Jack Anderson OL Caleb Benenoch OL Tyler Gauthier OL Marquell Harrell OL Syrus Tuitele DL Eli Ankou DT Joey Ivie LB Tyrell Adams LB Mike Bell CB Tim Harris S Tariq Thompson Latest list from NFL.com https://www.nfl.com/news/player-cuts-tracker-nfl-teams-53-man-rosters-for-2021-season 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slippery Rubber Mats Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 We need better gunner analytics. 1 6 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 Just now, Brianmoorman4jesus said: T. Jones absolutely is not worthy of a roster spot. If they used him as a KR or PR as well as the 3rd RB on game day…fine. The guy might be good at what he does, but not good enough to warrant the spot. This is a talented roster. Unless you plan to start giving him the ball here and there, cut him. I won’t say he’s not worthy of a roster spot, ST is always important. But I don’t think he is more valuable THIS year over some of our roster decisions. I’d rather have Brieda as a tool for the offense than say Taiwan. I’d rather keep 7 WRs to keep Stevenson for return duties. I’d rather sign another OT after cuts. I’d rather keep an extra CB like Wildgoose. Etc etc. I have no issue with Taiwan other than I don’t think he brings enough to the table to make this years roster because of players we have at other positions I think are higher priority. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thandGoal Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 4 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said: T. Jones absolutely is not worthy of a roster spot. If they used him as a KR or PR as well as the 3rd RB on game day…fine. The guy might be good at what he does, but not good enough to warrant the spot. This is a talented roster. Unless you plan to start giving him the ball here and there, cut him. Well I guess Beane thinks different. I will go by his decision over your opinion. (and it is not even close) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanForever19 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said: You already said it’s not fair to talk about one catch for Kumerow given his short stint on the roster. And his tiny time on the team, he arguably contributed more to our record than Taiwan did over a whole season because Taiwan didn’t do anything last season another gunner couldn’t do. But Taiwan won’t ever make a play on offense. Your argument here is weak because you and I both know that Kumerow is fully capable to fill in for Taiwan as gunner (or others) with similar production there, while we also know Taiwan isn’t ever going to produce any offensive points, or even yards, during the season. If he does get released, hold off on your celebratory party because he's one of the vet candidates that can be released and not subject to waivers to put someone else on the 53 and then immediately to IR so they can be brought back if need be (as Joe B has predicted). And we all know Kumerow can do the job at the same level? What evidence do we have of this? I believe both Kumerow and Taiwan will be here. But it's ridiculous to cut someone who is going to play every game multiple snaps for extra guys at positions that will be inactive every week unless there's an injury. You have your opinion and that's fine. But that opinion doesn't match the words and actions of McDermott. You say he's overrated as a gunner and replaceable. McDermott says he's the best gunner in the league. That's a big part of the reason why you've heard so many people say it. So when you argue he's not, you're arguing against McDermott's own words. And he's the decision maker. So to me, that's a futile hill to stand on. 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big C Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 I think we can all agree the "Sources confirm: Josh Allen has made the 53-man roster" tweets are so played out. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 Found one I would call about. 5 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 10 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: You already said it’s not fair to talk about one catch for Kumerow given his short stint on the roster. And his tiny time on the team, he arguably contributed more to our record than Taiwan did over a whole season because Taiwan didn’t do anything last season another gunner couldn’t do. But Taiwan won’t ever make a play on offense. Your argument here is weak because you and I both know that Kumerow is fully capable to fill in for Taiwan as gunner (or others) with similar production there, while we also know Taiwan isn’t ever going to produce any offensive points, or even yards, during the season. I suggested earlier in the thread that it's really easy for fans to undervalue special teams, and this is a pretty good illustration of that... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figster Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 I can't remember ever being this nervous a bout the last roster cut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 minute ago, BillsFanForever19 said: If he does get released, hold off on your celebratory party because he's one of the vet candidates that can be released and not subject to waivers to put someone else on the 53 and then immediately to IR so they can be brought back if need be (as Joe B has predicted). And we all know Kumerow can do the job at the same level? What evidence do we have of this? I believe both Kumerow and Taiwan will be here. But it's ridiculous to cut someone who is going to play every game multiple snaps for extra guys at positions that will be inactive every week unless there's an injury. You have your opinion and that's fine. But that opinion doesn't match the words and actions of McDermott. You say he's overrated as a gunner and replaceable. McDermott says he's the best gunner in the league. That's a big part of the reason why you've heard so many people say it. So when you argue he's not, you're arguing against McDermott's own words. And he's the decision maker. So to me, that's a futile hill to stand on. Lol, I am fine if he makes the team, some of you act like I have an agenda against him just because I don’t THINK he will make it unless we open spot up through IR. And I have said MANY times he very well could make the roster and the IR trick is quite possibly the way they will do it. So let me say for the 100th time…I have NOTHING against Taiwan, I just personally prioritize some other players I feel will be on the 53 BEFORE factoring in IR roster tactics. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBeaneBandit Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 3 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: Found one I would call about. Hmmmmmmm......... 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 minute ago, Rocky Landing said: I suggested earlier in the thread that it's really easy for fans to undervalue special teams, and this is a pretty good illustration of that... That’s just it, I don’t undervalue ST’s. In the past I’ve been quite vocal about the importance of ST’s and all too well remember the horrid we trotted out year after year and screaming at the TV over ST blunders. The difference is I feel we have a really good ST unit these days, and don’t see Taiwan as irreplaceable. Funny thing is almost none of the people advocating for Taiwan have probably even noticed him in a game and are arguing his greatness over a comment from a coach. While he’s obviously a great ST player for us, this notion he is irreplaceable in that role is so grossly over exaggerated around here. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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