Week 17: Dolphins at Bills - Squish the Fish playoff hopes and dreams

[JDHillFan]

Fantastic season 

Little to complain about 

ScottLaw hardest hit

[BillsFan619]

1 hour ago, DolFAN93 said:

Thank you. You guys have every right to be confident, but some of y'all are speaking as if we're the Jets or Jaguars. We've had some bad games but have also hung with you guys earlier in the year and were a few missed penalties away from beating the defending SB champions.

Welcome to the board, bro! No, you’re not the Jets or Jaguars that’s for sure.

 

That said, Tua is overhyped. It’s been crazy to me, the hype that he has had. Hopefully your team will keep believing in a below average quarterback. It bodes well for us for them to do so.

[smuvtalker]

No need to throw it

Cruise into the playoffs with

Motor, Moss and Josh

 

😀👍

[RiotAct]

What is this one game?

The calm before the storm, bro

Playoffs, here we come

[BillsFan130]

2 hours ago, r00tabaga said:

Not impressed with the kid. Undersized, Pennington-esque arm talent, lefty, too conservative, etc.

 

...i’d be more worried if The Beard was playing

Im not impressed either as I agree with your assessment.

 

But he is still a rookie and my point was the Dolphins have a fantastic roster now, and going forward. (Will pick 3rd this year as they have Houston’s 1st rounder)

 

If he does improve, (which is very possible) Dolphins are going to be a team to be reckon with for many years.

[Meatloaf63]

2 hours ago, DolFAN93 said:

Thank you. You guys have every right to be confident, but some of y'all are speaking as if we're the Jets or Jaguars. We've had some bad games but have also hung with you guys earlier in the year and were a few missed penalties away from beating the defending SB champions.

No argument here. You have had some very good luck, but being good enhances that. You are a tough team no doubt...

[Penfield45]

3 hours ago, r00tabaga said:

I think our JV team can beat them

who’s gonna tell him? 
 

Dolphins have one of the best defenses in the league and Barkley can’t throw 

[DolFAN93]

1 hour ago, KellyToTasker said:

The College game and the NFL are completely different in speed. You asked where the week arm rhetoric is coming from, I told you. 

What, he had 20 pass attempts the other night for 90+ yards? Why do you think that is? His ball takes F-O-R-E-V-E-R to get anywhere. 

 

There’s a difference in lofting a ball 50 yards down the field and being able to drive the ball to all levels of the field/through the defense. 
 

He is absolutely limited in the number of throws that he can make. He knows it. The defenses know it. 

Thanks for the analysis. If you wanted to argue trust in his arm, I'd agree with you. Tua does a lot of second-guessing because I'd assume he's not used to the speed of the NFL yet. I don't see a limited arm though, just slow processing.

1 hour ago, Pokebball said:

The NFL is so much faster than college.  And the game is so much more complicated.  Tua needs to grow into the NFL, I think it's as simple as that.  Will he?  Some do.  Some can't. Money is saying he will.  

That's the only flaw I'm seeing. You can tell his mental clock is still in college when he's sitting in the pocket for too long. If he learns to speed that up, he'll be fine.

[DolFAN93]

18 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

No argument here. You have had some very good luck, but being good enhances that. You are a tough team no doubt...

Besides the Raiders and I guess the Rams game, what luck have the Dolphins had?

[Meatloaf63]

2 minutes ago, DolFAN93 said:

Besides the Raiders and I guess the Rams game, what luck have the Dolphins had?

Isn’t that enough? There were games you got lucky bounces in turnovers. I’d have to go back and watch some of the wins you got earlier to remember but it’s not that important to me, I just remember seeing it for a number of games.  It’s not sustainable though. You will have to improve next year to keep this amount of wins you got this year.

[Fan in Chicago]

2 hours ago, In Summary said:

Mimimum list of those I'd rest:

White, Poyer,  Milano, Diggs, and Beasley.

Add Mitch Morse to that list

[DolFAN93]

9 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

Isn’t that enough? There were games you got lucky bounces in turnovers. I’d have to go back and watch some of the wins you got earlier to remember but it’s not that important to me, I just remember seeing it for a number of games.  It’s not sustainable though. You will have to improve next year to keep this amount of wins you got this year.

My bad. Maybe it's because I'm in enemy territory lol. I've heard this on Twitter from Bills fans too as if majority of Miami's wins have been because of luck. Turnovers aren't sustainable, but unless they're absolutely vital in determining the outcome of a game I wouldn't use that as to why Miami has been successful. They definitely have to improve and I think (hope) they will especially with all they have to work with next offseason.

[KellyToTasker]

19 minutes ago, DolFAN93 said:

Thanks for the analysis. If you wanted to argue trust in his arm, I'd agree with you. Tua does a lot of second-guessing because I'd assume he's not used to the speed of the NFL yet. I don't see a limited arm though, just slow processing.

That's the only flaw I'm seeing. You can tell his mental clock is still in college when he's sitting in the pocket for too long. If he learns to speed that up, he'll be fine.

Yeah, I’m not describing his ability to process. Watch him play, read professional takes on him. It’s all on the weaker end of arm strength. His positives as a QB coming out of Bama had NOTHING to do with arm strength. He’s a fully grown man, there’s no more growth spurts coming, it’s not going to change. His noodle arm is here, for good. 
 

Saying anything else is denial. 
 

By the way. His strength coming out was the ability to process the field. UH OH. He’s even having trouble with that AND he doesn’t have the arm strength to mask his late reads. 
 

If it could be done over, the Dolphins take Herbert all day (and you would too, Herbert is actually good). 

[Mat68]

Rest.  Allen has next year to get the yards record.  Front seven stop the run.  For the most part the dline will have a chance to rep it live Sunday.  Jake Fromm and Davis Webb heres your shot.

[DolFAN93]

20 minutes ago, KellyToTasker said:

Yeah, I’m not describing his ability to process. Watch him play, read professional takes on him. It’s all on the weaker end of arm strength. His positives as a QB coming out of Bama had NOTHING to do with arm strength. He’s a fully grown man, there’s no more growth spurts coming, it’s not going to change. His noodle arm is here, for good. 
 

Saying anything else is denial. 
 

By the way. His strength coming out was the ability to process the field. UH OH. He’s even having trouble with that AND he doesn’t have the arm strength to mask his late reads. 
 

If it could be done over, the Dolphins take Herbert all day (and you would too, Herbert is actually good). 

I wouldn't take Herbert if we had a redo. Tua has played half of the games that Herbert has. If he had these problems for 15 games I'd definitely take Herbert, but even then these guys aren't finished products. 

 

His strength coming out was processing the field but even you just admitted that the athletes in the NFL are playing at a different speed. So do we write him off because he's slowly adjusting to it?

 

And analysts mostly said that while his arm isn't the strongest, he has enough to make throws in the league. I dont recall one professional take insisting that he has a "noodle" arm. No growth spurt coming huh? Weren't your fans ready to get rid of Allen after his rookie season?

 

We can agree to disagree.

Edited December 30, 2020 by DolFAN93
Edit

[MasterStrategist]

15 minutes ago, DolFAN93 said:

My bad. Maybe it's because I'm in enemy territory lol. I've heard this on Twitter from Bills fans too as if majority of Miami's wins have been because of luck. Turnovers aren't sustainable, but unless they're absolutely vital in determining the outcome of a game I wouldn't use that as to why Miami has been successful. They definitely have to improve and I think (hope) they will especially with all they have to work with next offseason.

Miami reminds me a lot of Pittsburgh from last year, from a defensive (and in Miami case, S/T as well) to help score points and influence games.  Pittsburghs defense was more suffocating, whereas Miami's defense has been giving up decent yardage but very efficient/great at generating pressure looks and turnovers.  Flores is great at disguising his pressure packages.  Miami also has a much better QB (if its Tua or Fitz) then the steelers debacle last yr and easier schedule.

 

That said, I would rate Miami's offense below any other Afc contending playoff team and why I think they are the easiest competition.  That Denver game was ugly, Raiders should have been a loss if Gruden didn't overthink it, and Rams/Cardinals were fluke games with defensive and S/t scores. Credit due to Miami still for getting the wins, but could easily be a 8-7 team right now and thats what Miami feels like to me from watching them play (a slightly above .500 team, with young talent but not enough playmakers on offense yet and defense getting fortunate at key times).  With a Qb being groomed for the future, who looks to be more conservative with his decision making right now.  

 

Id love to play Miami round 1 of playoffs, we shall see

 

 

[sullim4]

31 minutes ago, DolFAN93 said:

My bad. Maybe it's because I'm in enemy territory lol. I've heard this on Twitter from Bills fans too as if majority of Miami's wins have been because of luck. Turnovers aren't sustainable, but unless they're absolutely vital in determining the outcome of a game I wouldn't use that as to why Miami has been successful. They definitely have to improve and I think (hope) they will especially with all they have to work with next offseason.

 

The 2020 Dolphins remind me of the Bills' 2017 season, where we got into the playoffs thanks to Andy Dalton and the Bengals.  The Bills had some crazy turnover advantage early in the season which wasn't sustainable (and, thanks to Nathan Peterman's game against the Chargers, was quickly eaten into), and we had several bounces go our way in our wins.

 

I will agree with most others here - Fitz should be playing this game with Tua on the bench.  There are few quarterbacks in the league better than "Good Fitz"... and Fitz tends to put up really good performances against Buffalo.

[KellyToTasker]

10 minutes ago, DolFAN93 said:

I wouldn't take Herbert if we had a redo. Tua has played half of the games that Herbert has. If he had these problems for 15 games I'd definitely take Herbert, but even then these guys aren't finished products. 

 

His strength coming out was processing the field but even you just admitted that the athletes in the NFL are playing at a different speed. So do we write him off because he's slowly adjusting to it?

 

And analysts mostly said that while his arm isn't the strongest, he has enough to make throws in the league. I dont recall one professional take insisting that he has a "noodle" arm. No growth spurt coming huh? Weren't your fans ready to get rid of Allen after his rookie season?

 

We can agree to disagree.

That’s the thing. Herbert has not had the issues of Tua, not even close. Herbert’s first game nearly knocked off the Chiefs. He wasn’t named the starter until minutes before the game, only because a doctor punctured the lung of Tyrod Taylor. 

Growth spurts as in...Physical Growth. Not performance growth. Tua isn’t getting taller, he’s not growing into a bigger quarterback.  🤷🏻‍♂️

 

Take a few minutes and read “one” article discussing Herbert and Tua IRT the draft. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/justin-herbert-vs-tua-tagovailoa-who-has-better-accuracy-arm-strength-and-scrambling-ability/amp/

[MasterStrategist]

14 minutes ago, DolFAN93 said:

I wouldn't take Herbert if we had a redo. Tua has played half of the games that Herbert has. If he had these problems for 15 games I'd definitely take Herbert, but even then these guys aren't finished products. 

 

His strength coming out was processing the field but even you just admitted that the athletes in the NFL are playing at a different speed. So do we write him off because he's slowly adjusting to it?

 

And analysts mostly said that while his arm isn't the strongest, he has enough to make throws in the league. I dont recall one professional take insisting that he has a "noodle" arm. No growth spurt coming huh? Weren't your fans ready to get rid of Allen after his rookie season?

 

We can agree to disagree.

Way too early to say who a team would rather have for the long-term future between Herbert and Tua.  We will see in a few years.  But definitely fair to say that Herbert has had a better start to his career if thats heavily influenced by his surrounding talent (Keenan Allen who is a stud, Mike Willams,.Hunter Henry, Ekeler, etc) i think that is also fair assessment.  But Herbert looks more decisive and has had one of the best rookie Qb seasons in history.

 

Tua looks like a game manager to me right now, not someone who is going to turn it over much at all, but also not.going to win you a game.  Exactly why a defensive minded coach why Flores prefers him to Fitz (who is turnover prone at times), but also why Fitz comes in "to win it". 

 

Im sorry but if I was a dolphins fan, let alone Tua, I have no clue how I condone that (great, it won you guys the Raiders game, u still lost doing the same thing against Denver).  Training wheels should be coming off at some point

[DolFAN93]

11 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Miami reminds me a lot of Pittsburgh from last year, from a defensive (and in Miami case, S/T as well) to help score points and influence games.  Pittsburghs defense was more suffocating, whereas Miami's defense has been giving up decent yardage but very efficient/great at generating pressure looks and turnovers.  Flores is great at disguising his pressure packages.  Miami also has a much better QB (if its Tua or Fitz) then the steelers debacle last yr and easier schedule.

 

That said, I would rate Miami's offense below any other Afc contending playoff team and why I think they are the easiest competition.  That Denver game was ugly, Raiders should have been a loss if Gruden didn't overthink it, and Rams/Cardinals were fluke games with defensive and S/t scores. Credit due to Miami still for getting the wins, but could easily be a 8-7 team right now and thats what Miami feels like to me from watching them play (a slightly above .500 team, with young talent but not enough playmakers on offense yet and defense getting fortunate at key times).  With a Qb being groomed for the future, who looks to be more conservative with his decision making right now.  

 

Id love to play Miami round 1 of playoffs, we shall see

 

 

Can't disagree with any of that. Our offense is very opportunistic. I'd rather not face you guys and instead take on the Titans if we can make it to the playoffs.

[DolFAN93]

8 minutes ago, KellyToTasker said:

That’s the thing. Herbert has not had the issues of Tua, not even close. Herbert’s first game nearly knocked off the Chiefs. He wasn’t named the starter until minutes before the game, only because a doctor punctured the lung of Tyrod Taylor. 

Growth spurts as in...Physical Growth. Not performance growth. Tua isn’t getting taller, he’s not growing into a bigger quarterback.  🤷🏻‍♂️

 

Take a few minutes and read “one” article discussing Herbert and Tua IRT the draft. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/justin-herbert-vs-tua-tagovailoa-who-has-better-accuracy-arm-strength-and-scrambling-ability/amp/

Tua and Herbert are different prospects. I wouldn't expect the prototypical player to have the same weaknesses as a short left-handed QB. Tua almost knocked out the Cheifs as well. It didn't happen for either.

 

I don't think height is an issue either. His lack of mobility is. The fact that he isn't mobile to go along with a young and inexperienced OL has been hard to watch at times. 

 

I read the article and it didn't tell me anything that I didn't already know. If anything it just reiterates what we already know, prototypical QBs translates better in the NFL.

[Penfield45]

super early forcast but looks like its going to snow

 

Imo Singletary and Moss need to start the whole game. They need reps before the playoffs and we have hardly run the ball this season. 

[KellyToTasker]

1 minute ago, DolFAN93 said:

Tua and Herbert are different prospects. I wouldn't expect the prototypical player to have the same weaknesses as a short left-handed QB. Tua almost knocked out the Cheifs as well. It didn't happen for either.

 

I don't think height is an issue either. His lack of mobility is. The fact that he isn't mobile to go along with a young and inexperienced OL has been hard to watch at times. 

 

I read the article and it didn't tell me anything that I didn't already know. If anything it just reiterates what we already know, prototypical QBs translates better in the NFL.

Lack of arm strength. Go way back to the first comments. Which is what the article says, lack of arm strength. Which is what I said. You offered comments suggesting arm strength is not a concern. He’s throwing for 90 yards in a game and getting yanked. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.  
 

The Dolphins could’ve drafted Curtis Painter and you would be proclaiming him as the next Dan Marino (could never get by Kelly). 
 

Tua has the reputation of a great teammate. He’ll make a terrific coach someday. 

[DolFAN93]

29 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Way too early to say who a team would rather have for the long-term future between Herbert and Tua.  We will see in a few years.  But definitely fair to say that Herbert has had a better start to his career if thats heavily influenced by his surrounding talent (Keenan Allen who is a stud, Mike Willams,.Hunter Henry, Ekeler, etc) i think that is also fair assessment.  But Herbert looks more decisive and has had one of the best rookie Qb seasons in history.

 

Tua looks like a game manager to me right now, not someone who is going to turn it over much at all, but also not.going to win you a game.  Exactly why a defensive minded coach why Flores prefers him to Fitz (who is turnover prone at times), but also why Fitz comes in "to win it". 

 

Im sorry but if I was a dolphins fan, let alone Tua, I have no clue how I condone that (great, it won you guys the Raiders game, u still lost doing the same thing against Denver).  Training wheels should be coming off at some point

Flores for sure prefers Tua's passiveness instead of Fitz. I don't think he's a game manager, he's lead multiple game-winning drives already, but I do understand why you feel that way. His play has been on-off. 

 

That's the next step. As much as I'd like to blame the supporting cast, which is a factor, when will he elevate the team when things aren't looking the greatest? I believe that's why Flores keeps starting him; he's hoping that spark eventually comes on consistently.

5 minutes ago, KellyToTasker said:

Lack of arm strength. Go way back to the first comments. Which is what the article says, lack of arm strength. Which is what I said. You offered comments suggesting arm strength is not a concern. He’s throwing for 90 yards in a game and getting yanked. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.  
 

The Dolphins could’ve drafted Curtis Painter and you would be proclaiming him as the next Dan Marino (could never get by Kelly). 
 

Tua has the reputation of a great teammate. He’ll make a terrific coach someday. 

 

From his play as a Dolphin, his arm strength hasn't been an issue. Tua has made those exact throws that Chris stated in his article. Stats only tell a percentage of the story, actually viewing the games fills in the rest. If any other QB threw for 90 yards in a game would you assume they struggled or their arm strength wasn't strong enough to make the throws? 

 

Time will tell.

Edited December 30, 2020 by DolFAN93

[njbuff]

How about Fromm plays some?

[JGMcD2]

51 minutes ago, DolFAN93 said:

Flores for sure prefers Tua's passiveness instead of Fitz. I don't think he's a game manager, he's lead multiple game-winning drives already, but I do understand why you feel that way. His play has been on-off. 

 

That's the next step. As much as I'd like to blame the supporting cast, which is a factor, when will he elevate the team when things aren't looking the greatest? I believe that's why Flores keeps starting him; he's hoping that spark eventually comes on consistently.

 

From his play as a Dolphin, his arm strength hasn't been an issue. Tua has made those exact throws that Chris stated in his article. Stats only tell a percentage of the story, actually viewing the games fills in the rest. If any other QB threw for 90 yards in a game would you assume they struggled or their arm strength wasn't strong enough to make the throws? 

 

Time will tell.

I’ve watched Tua almost every game he’s started. His arm is fine, not bad and not good. It’s just ok... he can make most of the throws, but overall his ball lacks real zip, it looks like it take awhile to get where it’s going. They’re protecting him from making those throws for a variety of reasons, which does say something. 
 

I feel like they run the same play action pass with a TE or WR slipping out and running parallel to Tua and it goes for 3-4 yards at least 10 times every game. 

[Warcodered]

57 minutes ago, njbuff said:

How about Fromm plays some?

He has a different role.

[ShakAttack]

So, am I correct that losing to Miami would eliminate any possibility of getting them in the WC round? If so, we need to win this game!!

[JMF2006]

Looks like the Steelers are going to sacrifice Mason Rudolph to the Browns

 

WTF are they thinking? 

 

Isn't there enough bad blood without antagonising them?

 

This shouldn't end well for the Rednosed Reindeer  

3 hours ago, njbuff said:

How about Fromm plays some?

 

He is the designated emergency covid relief QB 

 

I don't think the coaches are going to use that ace in the hole now.

 

I would think we would see Davis Webbs package before Fromm  

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by JMF2006
spelling

[JMF2006]

4 hours ago, DolFAN93 said:

Flores for sure prefers Tua's passiveness instead of Fitz. I don't think he's a game manager, he's lead multiple game-winning drives already, but I do understand why you feel that way. His play has been on-off. 

 

That's the next step. As much as I'd like to blame the supporting cast, which is a factor, when will he elevate the team when things aren't looking the greatest? I believe that's why Flores keeps starting him; he's hoping that spark eventually comes on consistently.

 

From his play as a Dolphin, his arm strength hasn't been an issue. Tua has made those exact throws that Chris stated in his article. Stats only tell a percentage of the story, actually viewing the games fills in the rest. If any other QB threw for 90 yards in a game would you assume they struggled or their arm strength wasn't strong enough to make the throws? 

 

Time will tell.

 

Or he is a Tyrod TaylorV2  

 

TT needed the WR to be uncovered to throw an out route.

 

Like the announcers say there is NFL open and Alabama open.....good NFL teams usually don't blow coverages that bad.

 

So he just game manages hoping to get a big play on D or ST

Edited December 30, 2020 by JMF2006

[Warcodered]

 

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

Chris Simms just emphatically said on PFT that the Bills should do whatever they have to do to avoid playing the Ravens. He gets it.

[FLFan]

10 hours ago, KellyToTasker said:

The College game and the NFL are completely different in speed. You asked where the week arm rhetoric is coming from, I told you. 

What, he had 20 pass attempts the other night for 90+ yards? Why do you think that is? His ball takes F-O-R-E-V-E-R to get anywhere. 

 

There’s a difference in lofting a ball 50 yards down the field and being able to drive the ball to all levels of the field/through the defense. 
 

He is absolutely limited in the number of throws that he can make. He knows it. The defenses know it. 

This is what I have observed as well.  His decision making other QB skill may get better as he gains experience, but strong armed he is not.

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

10 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Chris Simms just emphatically said on PFT that the Bills should do whatever they have to do to avoid playing the Ravens. He gets it.

I mean, I think the Bills are a better team this year. But I would much rather play the Phins, Colts or even the Browns.

 

Also, I want the Chiefs to play someone who has a chance to upset them

[r00tabaga]

9 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

Im not impressed either as I agree with your assessment.

 

But he is still a rookie and my point was the Dolphins have a fantastic roster now, and going forward. (Will pick 3rd this year as they have Houston’s 1st rounder)

 

If he does improve, (which is very possible) Dolphins are going to be a team to be reckon with for many years.

If they get his WR from ‘Bama it could be trouble.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

7 hours ago, Penfield45 said:

super early forcast but looks like its going to snow

 

Imo Singletary and Moss need to start the whole game. They need reps before the playoffs....

Dude, what? Why? 
 

if there are players on this team that need reps before the playoffs, it isn’t them. I’m all for them suiting up and getting some carries, but let T. Jones or Yeldon take the majority of the beating.

 

If the staff is looking to have players take more reps before the playoffs, give them to guys like Epinessa

 

FWIW, Singletary and Moss both have over 100 carries this season. In a game where they are likely going to roll with their back up QB and maybe even second string OL, I don’t see a value in giving them more Pt

Edited December 30, 2020 by EmotionallyUnstable

[JDHillFan]

Depressed because

McDermott is no Vrable

Kill me already 

[YoloinOhio]

 

[whatdrought]

8 hours ago, DolFAN93 said:

Tua and Herbert are different prospects. I wouldn't expect the prototypical player to have the same weaknesses as a short left-handed QB. Tua almost knocked out the Cheifs as well. It didn't happen for either.

 

I don't think height is an issue either. His lack of mobility is. The fact that he isn't mobile to go along with a young and inexperienced OL has been hard to watch at times. 

 

I read the article and it didn't tell me anything that I didn't already know. If anything it just reiterates what we already know, prototypical QBs translates better in the NFL.

Lol. Tua almost knocked off the chiefs? His defense gift wrapped 4 turnovers and Tua and his offense did nothing with them until it was too late...

[mannc]

10 hours ago, DolFAN93 said:

Thanks for the analysis. If you wanted to argue trust in his arm, I'd agree with you. Tua does a lot of second-guessing because I'd assume he's not used to the speed of the NFL yet. I don't see a limited arm though, just slow processing.

That's the only flaw I'm seeing. You can tell his mental clock is still in college when he's sitting in the pocket for too long. If he learns to speed that up, he'll be fine.

A guy who played three seasons at Alabama should have no real issues adjusting to the speed of the NFL—sure it’s different, but it’s not that different.  I understand he’s just a rookie, but Tua looks to me like a career backup.

 

I’m impressed with the Dolphins and your coach, but I’m eternally grateful that you guys didn’t pick Justin Herbert.  I think you’re going to need to start over at QB, probably in the 2022 draft.  Do you think they re-up Fitz?

And thanks for stopping by. It’s nice to hear respectful opinions from fans of other teams...makes this a better place.

Edited December 30, 2020 by mannc