The End of the Lamar Jackson Era

[Your Brown Eye]

[Matt_In_NH]

On 9/29/2020 at 7:12 PM, formerlyofCtown said:

So far this season as a passer, yes.  If you read my other post I do put a disclaimer in there.  You can't say at any point in any season that Lamar has looked to be in the same league as Mahomes.  That just isn't who he is.  They will likely never have the rushing yards he will.  He is a different kind of QB.

Because the MVP should have gone to Wilson.  You can't have a 145 yard 1TD and 3 Int game and others like that as well as costing your team a playoff game and be the MVP.  IMO.  If you took those games like the one he just played away from last season I would agree he was the undisputed MVP but you can't take those away.

 

I do have doubts about Lamar long term so I get that.  With any of these guys you want them to be able to succeed as a "pocket passer" if they need to.  The guys who play into their 40's don't do what Lamar does.   Athleticism here and  there, sure but it cant be the go to long term.  He has been extraordinarily effective to this point in his career even with some limitations.  I think he is 24-4 as a starter....often people here would defend Allen based on wins and losses, the argument has some validity to it.  I was reacting more to comparing Lamar to Allen AND Mahomes as if Allen and Mahomes are in the same class but Jackson is something else.  Both of those guys have had MVP seasons.  Allen has had 3 weeks where you could argue is in MVP discussions but it's only three weeks....a lot of anomalies occur in three weeks.   I guess I am shell shocked and still want to see Allen perform over a longer period of time.

 

Lamar can't win the game because of a playoff game....that is one way to look at it...but they give that away before they even play the super bowl right?  So is the intent to look over the entire season or mostly its a regular season thing?  Wilson is the best in the league right now with Mahomes right next to him almost neck and neck.  

[billsfan_34]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

 

Shaw's title simply reflects the media hype around Lamar. In the MNF pre-games show they compared Mahomes- Jackson to  Kelly-Marino and Brady-Manning.  Mahomes actually qualifies for this. Including Jackson in anyway in this stratosphere at this point is laughable. Discussing Jacksons 2019 regular season as one of the great personnel regular seasons in NFL history is fair and fine.  

Thanks- I understood the substance of it. Just pointing out that a few years in the NFL hardly makes an era. Brady, Brees, etc... is an era. Go Bills 😊

[racketmaster]

The NFL has so much chatter in between games as your team only plays once a week that it leads to over reactions on a weekly basis and that is compounded with the "hot takes" media environment we live in. This week Allen is a potential MVP candidate and if he struggles some against the Raiders it will be a bunch of haters saying "see I told you he was bad". If you remain somewhat level about Lamar you could say the following:

1. Using era is too strong to begin seeing as Jackson's strong play has lasted just about a 1 and a half. 

2. During his time as a starter, Jackson has been a problem for defenses to defend and I expect that to continue as long as he remains healthy. 

3. If the Ravens get a lead and keep going in at halftime, chances are they are going to win. The offense wears defenses down and he is a dynamic runner with the ability to make big passing plays when things are going well and they often do. 

4. If the Ravens get down because Lamar is being defended well early and the opposing offense is scoring on their tough defense then it is a problem for the Ravens to come back and win. Jackson will have some games that he does bring his team back from being down in the second half but more often than not, when Jackson is put in a must passing situation, he is going to struggle. 

5. Expect the Ravens and Jackson to be good for the next 5 years or as long as Jackson remains an outlier in terms of his running ability for the quarterback position. Again, the Ravens are difficult to prepare for and regular season games he will have more success than not against teams that have not seen this type of offense or are ill equipped to stop it.

6. Also, expect Jackson to continue to have postseason struggles. In the playoffs teams have a ton of tape to study and their staffs have been breaking down the playoff teams even before they start in preparation. Players are dialed in and the level of preparation and study is goes up a level. Teams also tend to be better in the playoffs as that is why they are there and in that way tend to be more equipped defensively to matchup or slow down Jackson. Also, the opposing offenses tend to be better and are likely to score more points against the Ravens defense putting Jackson in more uncomfortable positions. 

7. With 5 and 6, it will be a tall task for Jackson to win the necessary 3-4 games in a row against good to great opponents. It will not be impossible as we have seen much lesser quarterbacks get to and win SBs but it is not something that I would expect to happen, especially with Mahomes in the conference. 

8. Most likely outcome is Ravens win some in the playoffs but continue to lose before getting to SB. Jackson's athletic ability declines over time and by the time he is 30 he is done being a "problem" to defend. 

9. Jackson is so limited as a passer (little better than Tebow was but not by a wide margin) that as soon as injury or significant athletic decline occurs his "era" of being a problem and playoff team will be done. 

10. I don't see a way that Jackson could develop into a "pocket passer/extend the play" quarterback as he just does not have that skill set. He has a funky delivery, limited arm strength when throwing to the outside and his anticipation and reading of defenses is raw because he has not and will not need to develop those skills until he no longer has the rare running ability. His rare running ability is also his "curse" as far an longevity goes. It will cause a quicker athletic decline (I know the stats about injuries in the pocket and outside the pocket) but the fact is if he runs the ball 180 times a year or so he is still running, cutting, falling and getting hit sometimes and over time this all wears on the joints and body. It adds up and leads to a quicker decline. His athletic ability also gives him different looks and coverages. He rarely gets experience passing against more complicated coverages because he does not have to play the in the pocket game unless they are down at the end of games and that is rare. The limited experience he will get in those obvious passing situations will not allow him to get better at it and that is his "curse". Immediate gains but no longevity and a narrow path at getting to the very top (winning SB). 

11. But that is all down the road stuff that the Ravens organization can deal with in time. In the meantime, Jackson is still and will continue to be a problem.

[TheElectricCompany]

1 hour ago, billsfan_34 said:

, Lamar at times plays and is used as a tailback- he will be part of the Not For Long league.

 

The "Lamar's a RB" takes are hysterical.

 

I've posted numerous videos in this thread about his ability to make plays in the pocket, showcasing his accuracy, ball velocity, vision and movement in the

pocket. Help me out and post some videos that show the opposite.

 

If Josh can continue to make strides in his game, so can Lamar.

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

5 hours ago, QCity said:

 

lol The end of an era. But he's probably only going to win 1 Super Bowl going forward. What a trainwreck. 

 

probably only going to win 1 Super Bowl going forward is as bold as saying his era has ended.  

 

GOOD TEAMS can shut him down.   It's happened a few times ...  twice int he playoffs.  

 

Make him a QB.   

 

[billsfan_34]

2 hours ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

The "Lamar's a RB" takes are hysterical.

 

I've posted numerous videos in this thread about his ability to make plays in the pocket, showcasing his accuracy, ball velocity, vision and movement in the

pocket. Help me out and post some videos that show the opposite.

 

If Josh can continue to make strides in his game, so can Lamar.

 

I can crunch some numbers. Ive never said he is bad in the pocket, that would be others. I am stating that he runs “a lot” and through time, historically speaking, that doesn’t lend to a long career. 

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

 

probably only going to win 1 Super Bowl going forward is as bold as saying his era has ended.  

 

GOOD TEAMS can shut him down.   It's happened a few times ...  twice int he playoffs.  

 

Make him a QB.   

 

Even Aaron Rodgers has won only one SB.  And that doesn't stop him from being a  great QB

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

5 minutes ago, ganesh said:

Even Aaron Rodgers has won only one SB.  And that doesn't stop him from being a  great QB

what .....  ummmm....  wow.....   Comparing Aaron to Lamar ... please.  

 

 

Now if you said Trent Dilfer I might agree. 

or did I miss the sarcasm? 

[TheElectricCompany]

22 minutes ago, billsfan_34 said:

I can crunch some numbers. Ive never said he is bad in the pocket, that would be others. I am stating that he runs “a lot” and through time, historically speaking, that doesn’t lend to a long career. 

 

I think his rushing attempts will decrease over time, much like Russel Wilson did, as he continues to develop as a passer. He'll always be a threat to take off and run.

Historically speaking - he's in uncharted territory with the running AND passing prowess he has showcased in his short career (that's the point). 

Just like Josh, we haven't seen his true ceiling yet, and I'm really excited to watch Lamar continue to dominate in this league. He'll join the $40M+ club soon and likely win a championship, or multiples, in time.

I don't see any reason to have anything but optimism for him.

 

[Big Gun]

Lamar has elite running ability, below average passing ability. He took the league by storm in Romans offense, like Tyrod did, I for see a similar down trend, like Taylor as teams learn how to better defense Roman and Jackson. It's inevitable, it's happened time and again to running QBs. The more the league changes the more it stays the same.   

[atlbillsfan1975]

If you think Lamar Jackson is on the same trajectory as Russell Wilson I have to disagree. Lamar Jackson will never be the passer Wilson is. Even in Wilson’s first few seasons he could make all the throws, the team just didn’t need him too. You will see Lamar being asked to make the throws more and more, then we will see who is right about this debate. 

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by atlbillsfan1975

[wjag]

The dude/Ravens is/are 21-4 in games, including 6-1 as a rookie.  That's remarkable.  I watched the montage of his TD throws someone else posted here and it does show him using the whole field.  In my mind, he will have a superbowl before long.  He is greatly aided by a team that drafts well, attracts primo free agents, has a stout defense year-in, year out, an all-world kicker, a coach who rarely sees a fourth down play that he doesn't want to go for, a special teams unit that consistently excels and a really good secondary that can play man-to-man.  

Edited October 1, 2020 by wjag
context

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

12 minutes ago, wjag said:

The dude/Ravens is/are 21-4 in games, including 6-1 as a rookie.  That's remarkable.  I watched the montage of his TD throws someone else posted here and it does show him using the whole field.  In my mind, he will have a superbowl before long.  He is greatly aided by a team that drafts well, attracts primo free agents, has a stout defense year-in, year out, an all-world kicker, a coach who rarely sees a fourth down play that he doesn't want to go for, a special teams unit that consistently excels and a really good secondary that can play man-to-man.  

 

How many were by blown coverage to wide open players? 

How many times does he thread the needle?

 

[Stank_Nasty]

I havnt clicked into this thread until now. But the one thing i was sure of is that i would immediately be able to spot some ridiculous cherry picked stats from a certain poster while he made ridiculous comparisons to our old qb.

 

..... NAILED IT.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

25 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

I havnt clicked into this thread until now. But the one thing i was sure of is that i would immediately be able to spot some ridiculous cherry picked stats from a certain poster while he made ridiculous comparisons to our old qb.

 

..... NAILED IT.

 

Love you too  

 

BUT 

 

If you take the time to read the pages..  

 

  Many are in agreement with the OP and my posts ... we are NOT alone. 

 

Again.....  you take the straw man argument 

 

LJ is talented.    He is not an elite passing QB. 

[TheElectricCompany]

It's like he threw those 36 TDs by accident.

 

[Tjm3]

7 hours ago, TheElectricCompany said:

I've posted numerous videos in this thread about his ability to make plays in the pocket, showcasing his accuracy, ball velocity, vision and movement in the

pocket. Help me out and post some videos that show the opposite.

 

 

[TheElectricCompany]

1 minute ago, Tjm3 said:

Practice videos....

 

 

[Kenosha2Buffalo]

The narrative that this guy can't pass is ridiculous, and you're clearly just hating out of spite for whatever reason if you think that. One bad game, he had one bad game, against a super bowl champion lol. Look at his passing numbers, clowns.

[njbuff]

As long as Lamar Jackson doesn't play against Patrick Mahomes, he is fine.

 

Problem is that he can't throw with Mahomes. Which is a BIG problem.

 

There aren't too many QB's in today's NFL that can throw with Mahomes, so Jackson doesn't deserve to get dissed for that.

 

Unfortunately for Jackson, he is always going to be tied to Mahomes and he has yet to be Mahomes.

 

On a lighter note, Allen will get his chance to throw with Mahomes.

[njbuff]

6 minutes ago, Kenosha2Buffalo said:

The narrative that this guy can't pass is ridiculous, and you're clearly just hating out of spite for whatever reason if you think that. One bad game, he had one bad game, against a super bowl champion lol. Look at his passing numbers, clowns.

 

He is 0-3 against Mahomes and is 0-2 in the playoffs.

 

Those are his only losses, but unfortunately all of those losses are tied to him and his limitations when facing higher levels of competition.

 

Plus he has yet to lead a come from behind victory for Baltimore. Very troubling.

 

Jackson is a frontrunner to the extreme until proven otherwise.

 

Lamar Jackson is tied to what I said just like the Bills of the 90's are tied to SB losses. Jackson gets a chance to overcome this stereotype, unlike those 90's Bills teams.

[eball]

Here’s an interesting theoretical to ponder:

 

You take the same defense, same supporting cast, and have to decide if you want Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson as your QB.

 

As recently as four weeks ago, outside of WNY the ratio would have probably been 90/10 in favor of Jackson.

 

Right now, I bet that ratio has closed to about 50/50.

 

Remember, both QBs have the same number of playoff wins.

[BananaB]

1 hour ago, Kenosha2Buffalo said:

The narrative that this guy can't pass is ridiculous, and you're clearly just hating out of spite for whatever reason if you think that. One bad game, he had one bad game, against a super bowl champion lol. Look at his passing numbers, clowns.

If he can pass so well he wouldn’t be running as much as he is. Kids very talented athlete that has a gift, but it’s his legs not his arm. Stats don’t tell the whole story. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

54 minutes ago, eball said:

Here’s an interesting theoretical to ponder:

 

You take the same defense, same supporting cast, and have to decide if you want Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson as your QB.

 

As recently as four weeks ago, outside of WNY the ratio would have probably been 90/10 in favor of Jackson.

 

Right now, I bet that ratio has closed to about 50/50.

 

Remember, both QBs have the same number of playoff wins.

but one guy was shut down twice in the playoffs 

[BillsFan130]

5 hours ago, eball said:

Here’s an interesting theoretical to ponder:

 

You take the same defense, same supporting cast, and have to decide if you want Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson as your QB.

 

As recently as four weeks ago, outside of WNY the ratio would have probably been 90/10 in favor of Jackson.

 

Right now, I bet that ratio has closed to about 50/50.

 

Remember, both QBs have the same number of playoff wins.

Before the year I was 50/50 as crazy as that sounds.

 

Now Josh all the way.

[bobobonators]

So many hot takes on here. 
 

23yrs old

NFL MVP (arguably one of the best statistical seasons ever for a QB)

23-4 in his very young career

 

Other than winning a super bowl in your first 2 seasons, can you possibly do any better than that? Not really.

 

Lamar came into a franchise in disarray :

 

2015: 5-11

2016: 8-8

2017: 9-7

2018: started 4-5 before he was put in at QB

 

Since Lamar has been starter that franchise has been electric, and the turnaround hyperbolic. Some of you talk about the Ravens as if he came on to the Ray Lewis/Ed Reed era Ravens. The ravens sucked. There were serious talks about Harbaugh leaving in 2018. 
 

Lamar is the Ravens; he’s also the reigning NFL MVP. At the very least show some respect. He’s not “average” or “below average” at anything. 

 

 

[Chaos]

There are “bad games”  and there are very bad games. In Jackson’s last four starts he has had two very bad games.  The open question is are the two bad games an anomaly or they results of defenses “solving” for Jackson’s highly unusual skill set.  
 

To me the closest comparison to Jackson’s skills in QB history is Michael Vick.  
Vick had a pretty successful NFL career. I expect Jackson may have similar success.  If you consider Vick to have been a great QB then you can certainly put Jackson in that level.  
 

If defenses have “solved” Jackson and he and Roman cannot counter the solution, then Jackson’s results will likely trend in an unfavorable direction. Time will tell. 

[Teddy KGB]

On 10/1/2020 at 4:39 AM, QCity said:

 

lol The end of an era. But he's probably only going to win 1 Super Bowl going forward. What a trainwreck. 

dudes never won a playoff game, Super Bowl lmao 

[Bill from NYC]

On ‎9‎/‎29‎/‎2020 at 9:17 AM, BillsVet said:

I'll give the league's 2019 MVP more than 1 game to demonstrate he can no longer be dynamic. 

 

Josh is the better passer of the football right now and may always be.  What is funny are the people who pronounce something is so with regard to players, league trends after one or a handful of games.  It takes a much bigger sample size to identify what is happening across the NFL or how a young player does or does not progress.

Good points.

 

Before Brady passed him, Joe Montana was regarded by a whole lot of fans and sportswriters as the GOAT, however; I heard MANY players say that they felt that Steve Young was better than him. One thing is certain, running quarterbacks are thrilling to watch both in the NFL and college. That said, they get hurt. It virtually HAS to happen because every NFL player gets hurt and a running quarterback increases his exposure. The rules are set up now to protect QBs and running and getting hit by genetic mutants can work in the short term, but will eventually get a QB slaughtered.

 

Btw the above includes our Josh. I was VERY happy when we drafted him and I didn't even know that he was a great runner. He has the potential to be the most exciting player in the history of the Bills. Yeah, I know this is a bold statement. My wish for him is that as time passes he runs less, the thrill of watching him do so notwithstanding.

 

In summary, Jackson is a fine QB imo. I don't know if the will ever have an "era," however he is good enough to win titles for his team IF he lasts.

 

As always, JMO.

[mannc]

14 hours ago, eball said:

Here’s an interesting theoretical to ponder:

 

You take the same defense, same supporting cast, and have to decide if you want Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson as your QB.

 

As recently as four weeks ago, outside of WNY the ratio would have probably been 90/10 in favor of Jackson.

 

Right now, I bet that ratio has closed to about 50/50.

 

Remember, both QBs have the same number of playoff wins.

The difference is that you have to design a specific offensive system for Lamar.  You can just drop Josh Allen into pretty much any NFL offense that’s ever been.

[finn]

22 hours ago, TheElectricCompany said:

If Josh can continue to make strides in his game, so can Lamar.

 

I don't think is necessarily true, if by "strides" you mean the giant leaps Allen has made, which may be unprecedented at the QB position if they continue or even hold up. I say that because Allen has a package of football intelligence, coachability, drive to improve, and competitiveness that few QBs have. Add to that his physical traits and you have a real anomaly. Jackson might match Allen's physical traits (he's a better runner but not as big), and you could argue he also has football intelligence and coachability, maybe, but he seems to get all mopey and regress when things go badly, and I don't see much improvement this year, which suggests he might not be as driven as Allen so clearly is. As others have pointed out, if you take away his tight ends, he's lost. I get it that we don't have to tear down Jackson to feel good about Allen, but I don't think TheElectricCompany's claim necessarily follows. 

[TheElectricCompany]

34 minutes ago, finn said:

I don't think is necessarily true, if by "strides" you mean the giant leaps Allen has made, which may be unprecedented at the QB position if they continue or even hold up. I say that because Allen has a package of football intelligence, coachability, drive to improve, and competitiveness that few QBs have. Add to that his physical traits and you have a real anomaly. Jackson might match Allen's physical traits (he's a better runner but not as big), and you could argue he also has football intelligence and coachability, maybe, but he seems to get all mopey and regress when things go badly, and I don't see much improvement this year, which suggests he might not be as driven as Allen so clearly is. As others have pointed out, if you take away his tight ends, he's lost. I get it that we don't have to tear down Jackson to feel good about Allen, but I don't think TheElectricCompany's claim necessarily follows. 

 

Improvements will not always be massive leaps, but yes, it is reasonable to expect 3rd year QBs to continue to develop. You do realize that Lamar's leap from Year 1 to 2 was also quite unprecedented, right?

 

I'm not going into comparing intangibles between LJ and Josh - they both "check the boxes" and want to be great. Remember Lamar's draft night interview, when they asked him what Ravens fans could expect, and his response was "Super Bowl - believe that" ?  Josh didn't talk about Super Bowls that night, it's clear he doesn't care about being a champion. 🙄

 

"Take away the tight ends", "take away his running ability", "take him out of a Roman run heavy scheme", why do we continue to put asterisks on his performance, like he needs to apologize for his talents and situation?

 

Looks lost throwing outside....Okie dokie, here are his 2019 numbers. Deep ball was his "weak" area.

 

Edited October 2, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

Good points.

 

Before Brady passed him, Joe Montana was regarded by a whole lot of fans and sportswriters as the GOAT, however; I heard MANY players say that they felt that Steve Young was better than him. One thing is certain, running quarterbacks are thrilling to watch both in the NFL and college. That said, they get hurt. It virtually HAS to happen because every NFL player gets hurt and a running quarterback increases his exposure. The rules are set up now to protect QBs and running and getting hit by genetic mutants can work in the short term, but will eventually get a QB slaughtered.

 

Btw the above includes our Josh. I was VERY happy when we drafted him and I didn't even know that he was a great runner. He has the potential to be the most exciting player in the history of the Bills. Yeah, I know this is a bold statement. My wish for him is that as time passes he runs less, the thrill of watching him do so notwithstanding.

 

In summary, Jackson is a fine QB imo. I don't know if the will ever have an "era," however he is good enough to win titles for his team IF he lasts.

 

As always, JMO.

As long as OJ exists in Bills history it will be hard to have a more exciting player.

 

As for Shaw's take, I agree with him 99% of the time.  This 1%, I think he's being a bit premature.

[Shaw66]

50 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

 

 

As for Shaw's take, I agree with him 99% of the time.  This 1%, I think he's being a bit premature.

Hey, old man.   I'll give you a simple test to see if you really think I'm premature.

 

Would you trade Josh Allen even up for Lamar Jackson?   

 

I know, right now, that Josh Allen will have a better career than Lamar Jackson.  There is no way I'd make that trade.  Why?  Because I'm pretty sure that 15 years from now we will not be talking about Lamar Jackson as one of the all time greats, and there's a good chance we will be having that conversation about Allen. 

 

Of course, if you and I are having that conversation, it'll be in some old folks home.  

2 hours ago, Chaos said:

There are “bad games”  and there are very bad games. In Jackson’s last four starts he has had two very bad games.  The open question is are the two bad games an anomaly or they results of defenses “solving” for Jackson’s highly unusual skill set.  
 

To me the closest comparison to Jackson’s skills in QB history is Michael Vick.  
Vick had a pretty successful NFL career. I expect Jackson may have similar success.  If you consider Vick to have been a great QB then you can certainly put Jackson in that level.  
 

If defenses have “solved” Jackson and he and Roman cannot counter the solution, then Jackson’s results will likely trend in an unfavorable direction. Time will tell. 

I think the Vick comparison is about right.  Vick had a better arm, clearly,   HE was a great runner, but he didn't have Lamar's elusiveness.  But I agree, VIck's career is likely Jackson's upside.  

[C.Biscuit97]

What a petty thread.  Why does this board have a hard on for putting down a 23 year old MVP?  I know this is crazy but you can be thrilled with Allen and not have to put another player down.  A few things. 
 

1 - Jackson was awful Monday.  It seems if you get the lead on the Ravens, it’s a struggle for them to come back.  He needs to prove he can do that.

 

2 - his receivers suck besides Brown

 

3 - if Josh Allen wins the MVP this year and then in game 3 loses to the SB champs with a generational qb, if someone started a thread called the Josh Allen era is over, we’d think they were a loser right?  What is the point of this?

 

without a doubt, Allen has been the better qb.  So why not be happy that through 3 games, our guy is outperforming last years MVP rather than knock Jackson down?  Seems petty and bad mojo.

[Ramza86]

Def not the end of the era. As long as he has a decent team around him he will be in the playoffs with a title chance every year. 

 

Thats really all you can ask for.

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

As long as OJ exists in Bills history it will be hard to have a more exciting player.

 

As for Shaw's take, I agree with him 99% of the time.  This 1%, I think he's being a bit premature.

Good point wrt OJ.

The game has changed to the degree that the running back position has been seriously diminished in importance. Don't misunderstand, I love a good running game and a player like Derek Henry is very exciting to me, but today fans seem to want high power passing games and Arena League scores.

Old timers like us tend to prefer balanced offenses and strong defenses.

 

[TheElectricCompany]

49 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

VIck's career is likely Jackson's floor.  

 

FIFY

 

 

[Shaw66]

45 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

FIFY

 

 

Didn't know what FIFY meant, but I figured it out..

 

We disagree fundamentally on this one. Let's talk in five years.