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How Much is To Much ? Will the NFL Ever Put a Limit on Contracts ?


T master

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Every year we here of each teams salary cap going up & each new QB that comes along like Mahomes is expected to set a new record for the amount of money he receives in his new contract when negotiations start & although i believe that if they are willing to pay what ever amount you ask for get while the getting is good, will the owners or the NFL ever decide that enough is enough & put a cap on the biggest amount you can receive in a contract per position to allow the other players to be able to make decent pay ?

 

As it stands right now Matt Ryan holds the largest overall contract when he signed his extension in May of 2018 which was for 5 yrs $150 million but the player that has the highest amount paid per yr (not over all) is Russel Wilson his extension was for 4 yrs $140 million but he gets paid $35 million per yr & they are saying that Mahomes contract could be in the vicinity of some $200 million if he signs a 5 yr extension with a $40 million per yr pay check !!

 

Just saying HOLY S**T that's a lot of cash !! ?

 

The new CBA contract talks are now on going too & they are talking how if it is excepted that just the average joe players can make a extra $90k a years which heck i believe there's probably not on person here that would turn just the increase down let alone adding it to what they already get per year .

 

I know in my little pea brain $40 million a yr would set me or any of us up for a hell of a long time & i can't even fathom how you would have to live or what you would need to live in order to spend that kind of cash, sure i would first take care of family & possibly a couple of dear friends but after that the what ? 

 

How much more can the cash flow continue to grow & just how much is to much ? Will the owners ever put a cap on the spending when it comes to individual salaries per position to keep the pay for other players relevant, because a team is made up of all the players & not just 1 or 2 extremely high priced very talented players !! 

 

 

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Shouldn't the star QB's of today make more than the star QB's of yesterday?

 

I personally don't see much of an issue. The NFL still gives less of a percentage of revenue to players than many other sports leagues.

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If they cap the salaries, it just means the owners get richer.   

 

The players are workers in an industry that just happens to generate huge amounts of money.   The players, being the people who make the league successful, have demanded and gotten a share of the profits.   When the profits go up, the players' share, in terms of dollars, goes up.  

 

How would you like it if someone told you that you were making enough and no longer could get a raise?   Why should the players be any different?

 

Now, maybe the players' association might want to revise the contract to limit in some way the difference between the lowest paid and the highest paid players, which would indirectly cap the QB salaries.   It would be something like no player on a team can make less than 1/20 of the highest paid player.   That would mean that if the QB is making $20 million, the lowest paid guy would make $1 million.   I suppose they could do something like that.   But if I'm the QB, I'm asking the players' association what they're doing, because they're supposed to be representing me, and they're taking money from me.   

 

I don't worry about that stuff.  I just watch the games.  

Just now, thronethinker said:

The question is, how much more are you willing to spend to support the NFL?

Well, they ARE struggling.   Let's start a GoFundMe page for the players.  

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I thought one of two things would happen in this CBA, but it appears to not be the case. 

 

1) Similar to the NHL, one players % of the cap would be capped ..say 13% or something

 

2) A separate pool or cap of some sort for QBs, with some kind of equation that reflects rookie deals etc.

 

And I am still shocked that not 1 QB has asked for a percentage of the cap as opposed to a flat number. Thats what I would ask for

 

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I think we're close to the time of "peak football" and the decline of the NFL. Baseball had it's resurgence in the 90's with Sosa and McGuire after it's strike and I believe the same is true for football.

 

I think we're only a decade away from more empty stadiums as TV/internet improves and the fan base of going out to the game with dad in the seasons will be seen as too primitive.

 

I also believe a lot of fandom today are not fans at all. Many of our ratings today are based around fantasy people. I think fantasy teams destroy the sport. It's hard not to root for your guy against the interests of your team. It's great for short term gain, terrible for long-term viability.

 

Once we are past the age of peak football I think that's when things get bad: hold-out, strike, and fans don't care as much = decline and less revenue

 

Peak Hollywood was the 90's. Peak baseball was the 90's too. Basketball and football are still doing well. I think CTE, more players retiring early, and less great QBs might accelerate the decline.

Edited by BigBillsFan
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The players should be paid relative to what the league makes. They are the ones performing on the field, they are the ones putting their bodies at risk. No one is paying to see the owners sit in boxes. The owners make enough and have a solid investment.

 

As long as NFL revenues are as high as they are (and growing), so should player contracts. Easy as that.

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20 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

I thought one of two things would happen in this CBA, but it appears to not be the case. 

 

1) Similar to the NHL, one players % of the cap would be capped ..say 13% or something

 

2) A separate pool or cap of some sort for QBs, with some kind of equation that reflects rookie deals etc.

 

And I am still shocked that not 1 QB has asked for a percentage of the cap as opposed to a flat number. Thats what I would ask for

 

I think this has been a sore subject since the early 90’s when GB pissed off the owners by guaranteeing that Sterling Sharpe the highest WR salary. It was a precedent the league didn’t want to set. Still, I’m surprised that no one has bargained down for a 100% guaranteed contract. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseret.com/platform/amp/1994/9/16/19131074/sharpe-catches-top-pay-as-receiver

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26 minutes ago, BigBillsFan said:

I think we're close to the time of "peak football" and the decline of the NFL. Baseball had it's resurgence in the 90's with Sosa and McGuire after it's strike and I believe the same is true for football.

 

I think we're only a decade away from more empty stadiums as TV/internet improves and the fan base of going out to the game with dad in the seasons will be seen as too primitive.

 

I also believe a lot of fandom today are not fans at all. Many of our ratings today are based around fantasy people. I think fantasy teams destroy the sport. It's hard not to root for your guy against the interests of your team. It's great for short term gain, terrible for long-term viability.

 

Once we are past the age of peak football I think that's when things get bad: hold-out, strike, and fans don't care as much = decline and less revenue

 

Peak Hollywood was the 90's. Peak baseball was the 90's too. Basketball and football are still doing well. I think CTE, more players retiring early, and less great QBs might accelerate the decline.

there will always be players wanting to play in the NFL....for many of these players, it's the only chance they have for a better life....fantasy football has actually increase the interest in sports. The NFL doesn't make as much off of tickets and they used to. They don't care why people are watching, as long as they watch. I don't like some things about the game...."the look at me after i make a tackle" after every play is annoying but I still love watching

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Until the owners start losing money, players can and should demand more money.  That's the way capitalism works. 

 

We as consumers can decide enough is enough, and stop buying tickets, merchandise, apps etc and support the XFL if we're willing to accept a lower quality product.  If we stop watching games on TV, their next TV deal will be less, and ownership will be able negotiate lowering the salary cap.  Otherwise - accept that they're getting paid a lot more than you or I am, and good for them.  

 

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47 minutes ago, T master said:

How much more can the cash flow continue to grow & just how much is to much ? Will the owners ever put a cap on the spending when it comes to individual salaries per position to keep the pay for other players relevant, because a team is made up of all the players & not just 1 or 2 extremely high priced very talented players !! 

 

Players will fight tooth and nail against individual contract limits because of the lottery syndrome. Even while most players will never see a 40 million dollar contract, they all want to believe they will.

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3 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

I think this has been a sore subject since the early 90’s when GB pissed off the owners by guaranteeing that Sterling Sharpe the highest WR salary. It was a precedent the league didn’t want to set. Still, I’m surprised that no one has bargained down for a 100% guaranteed contract. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseret.com/platform/amp/1994/9/16/19131074/sharpe-catches-top-pay-as-receiver

I like that approach as well...

 

In terms of guarantees, i do think you will see guys just eliminate the back years as Cousins did in his contract, and Sammy did in his. They were really always club options anyway, another way to say this is when we can cut you with no significant cap hit. Sammy's was a two year deal with $30M Guaranteed , and a club option at $21M for the third year. Sammy playing the financial game the way it should be played

 

Cousins was 3 year guaranteed. 

 

Only reason you don't see more structured this way is agents like to tout total value of a deal, so they love to add on those club options at the end 

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6 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

I like that approach as well...

 

In terms of guarantees, i do think you will see guys just eliminate the back years as Cousins did in his contract, and Sammy did in his. They were really always club options anyway, another way to say this is when we can cut you with no significant cap hit. Sammy's was a two year deal with $30M Guaranteed , and a club option at $21M for the third year. Sammy playing the financial game the way it should be played

 

Cousins was 3 year guaranteed. 

 

Only reason you don't see more structured this way is agents like to tout total value of a deal, so they love to add on those club options at the end 

That and optimism. People tend to believe “that won’t happen to me” until it happens to them. This is particularly true for younger guys. My attitude changed early, but that resulted from three months in ICU after a car wreck. Without that wreck I’d have probably been an idiot till my 35th birthday. 

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10 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

Players will fight tooth and nail against individual contract limits because of the lottery syndrome. Even while most players will never see a 40 million dollar contract, they all want to believe they will.

I think it is the opposite.  If the union wanted a $35 million max for a player, that means more for the other players. A cap impacts 32 players negatively, benefits 1650 players.

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the qbs pay is going up but they are all in line with the same percentage of the cap allocated to that position.  ryan is something like 17 percent or something of the falcons cap whereas when he signed 5 years ago he was also 17 percent of the cap. give or take i'm sure

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56 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

If they cap the salaries, it just means the owners get richer.   

 

The players are workers in an industry that just happens to generate huge amounts of money.   The players, being the people who make the league successful, have demanded and gotten a share of the profits.   When the profits go up, the players' share, in terms of dollars, goes up.  

 

How would you like it if someone told you that you were making enough and no longer could get a raise?   Why should the players be any different?

 

Now, maybe the players' association might want to revise the contract to limit in some way the difference between the lowest paid and the highest paid players, which would indirectly cap the QB salaries.   It would be something like no player on a team can make less than 1/20 of the highest paid player.   That would mean that if the QB is making $20 million, the lowest paid guy would make $1 million.   I suppose they could do something like that.   But if I'm the QB, I'm asking the players' association what they're doing, because they're supposed to be representing me, and they're taking money from me.   

 

I don't worry about that stuff.  I just watch the games.  

Well, they ARE struggling.   Let's start a GoFundMe page for the players.  

A cap on the highest individual salary is a completely separate variable from the owners getting richer. Conceptually the salary floor and total payroll cap dictate how much is left for the owners.   An individual cap actually disrupts competitive balance. For example  If the Indvidual cap was 20 mm and mahomes and dak Prescott both make 20 that is a huge advantage to the chiefs.  

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1 hour ago, MJS said:

Shouldn't the star QB's of today make more than the star QB's of yesterday?

 

I personally don't see much of an issue. The NFL still gives less of a percentage of revenue to players than many other sports leagues.

 

the risk of career limiting or ending injury is huge, one is a practice away from a major injury

 

the players union is the weakest by far of the major sports because of this

 

and the NFL owners are smarter than the NBA, as shown every year

 

 

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My only beef with the nfl is there is no 1 thing I can subscribe to and watch all of my team’s games. 
 

But As long as every team has the same cap, let them figure out how to distribute it. 
 

I do think the minimums should be more of a focal point than the top end salaries. All these guys risk debilitating harm to entertain. 

And owners Gaining profits is fine too, they are the one investing their billions to support the team to begin with. 
 

Like every business trying to scale, we just need to hope they don’t kill quality it trying to grow $. 
 

 

 

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1 hour ago, nucci said:

doesn't the salary cap put limits on contracts......who cares how much players make....good for them...owners bring in billions...they can afford this. 

While I don't exactly disagree with you, that's a bit of a misleading statement. The owners don't individually bring in "billions." One report I read used the Green Bay Packers as an example. In 2018, the NFL earned $8.1 Billion in national revenue, meaning each team got about $255 million of that. Then, you get your local revenue (in this case, for the Packers, it was $196 million) which brought their total revenue, not profit, to $455 million. Of that, $213 million went to players, another $208 million to "stadium upkeep, marketing, and team and administrative costs." This left them with an operating income of $38.5 million. A far cry from the "billions" that you claim they bring in. Sure, other teams may bring in more, and maybe the Packers did a big stadium upgrade that year.

 

But the point is, if an owner has invested, like Mr. Pegula, $1.4 BILLION of his own money to buy a team, why shouldn't he want to make a return on that investment? $38.5 million a year is a pretty crappy return for a year on a billion and a half dollar investment, if you ask me. He'd have to own the team for over 36 years at that rate to break even on that investment. And yes, I understand that the value of the team will increase (and already has) over time, but that's not cash in his pocket until he sells the team. I don't blame the owners, if they're only making that much, for wanting to try to retain a bit more. That'd be like you or me investing $14,000 in the stock market and only getting a return of $385 for the year. 

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3 minutes ago, CLTbills said:

While I don't exactly disagree with you, that's a bit of a misleading statement. The owners don't individually bring in "billions." One report I read used the Green Bay Packers as an example. In 2018, the NFL earned $8.1 Billion in national revenue, meaning each team got about $255 million of that. Then, you get your local revenue (in this case, for the Packers, it was $196 million) which brought their total revenue, not profit, to $455 million. Of that, $213 million went to players, another $208 million to "stadium upkeep, marketing, and team and administrative costs." This left them with an operating income of $38.5 million. A far cry from the "billions" that you claim they bring in. Sure, other teams may bring in more, and maybe the Packers did a big stadium upgrade that year.

 

But the point is, if an owner has invested, like Mr. Pegula, $1.4 BILLION of his own money to buy a team, why shouldn't he want to make a return on that investment? $38.5 million a year is a pretty crappy return for a year on a billion and a half dollar investment, if you ask me. He'd have to own the team for over 36 years at that rate to break even on that investment. And yes, I understand that the value of the team will increase (and already has) over time, but that's not cash in his pocket until he sells the team. I don't blame the owners, if they're only making that much, for wanting to try to retain a bit more. That'd be like you or me investing $14,000 in the stock market and only getting a return of $385 for the year. 

 

The value of the 1.4 billion is mostly tied up in being in that specific club of billionaires.  It's basically a hedge fund that is guaranteed to A- make you annual profit and B- guaranteed to go up in value should you ever decide to sell.  Reinvestment into things like a field house and gym all do nothing but likely increase the value of your asset. 

 

A stock has no value until you sell it either.  Bill Gates is worth 112 billion dollars, but the majority of that is tied up in hedge funds.  These increase the value of that 112 billion, but in the same way - there's no actual physical value to it.  

 

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1 hour ago, BigBillsFan said:

I think we're close to the time of "peak football" and the decline of the NFL. Baseball had it's resurgence in the 90's with Sosa and McGuire after it's strike and I believe the same is true for football.

 

I think we're only a decade away from more empty stadiums as TV/internet improves and the fan base of going out to the game with dad in the seasons will be seen as too primitive.

 

I also believe a lot of fandom today are not fans at all. Many of our ratings today are based around fantasy people. I think fantasy teams destroy the sport. It's hard not to root for your guy against the interests of your team. It's great for short term gain, terrible for long-term viability.

 

Once we are past the age of peak football I think that's when things get bad: hold-out, strike, and fans don't care as much = decline and less revenue

 

Peak Hollywood was the 90's. Peak baseball was the 90's too. Basketball and football are still doing well. I think CTE, more players retiring early, and less great QBs might accelerate the decline.

 

 

Excellent and couldnt agree more with most of what you say.

 

Actually depends how you define "peak".  In the 1930s Baseball by far was #1 followed by Boxing then hiorse racing.  Now it is football, basbeall and basketball.

 

The concept of a "stadium" is rapidly becoming an anachronism, like shopping malls.  Why go to a crowded,  overpriced stadiums used 10-12 times/year esp with TVs getting larger &  higher defintion and all the amenties of home/sports bar.   One of the reasons i dont think there wil EVER be another NFL sized stadium built in WNY.

 

And yes CTE is going to accerlartte football's demise.  Only a matter of time before Colleges start  paying foobtal olayers which means they are de-facto employees which means the CTE lawsuits in college are inevtiable.  Fewer and fewer parents/kids want to pariticpate in football. 

 

Only thing i disgaree with is your fantasy football take, i think it has been a boon to the NFL, people watch just for fantasy and TV revenue is the #1 driving force.

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46 minutes ago, Chaos said:

A cap on the highest individual salary is a completely separate variable from the owners getting richer. Conceptually the salary floor and total payroll cap dictate how much is left for the owners.   An individual cap actually disrupts competitive balance. For example  If the Indvidual cap was 20 mm and mahomes and dak Prescott both make 20 that is a huge advantage to the chiefs.  

I agree.   

 

The point is, there are a lot of problems that get created when you start trying to control how much money someone can make, in any environment.   The NFL does what the NBA first did - agree with the players what percentage of the revenue, as they choose to define it, will go to the players.   That's what the salary cap does.   How the teams choose to divide it up among their players is there business.   Capping salaries for a position, or capping the highest possible salary, is really a question for the players' union.   Do they want to agree among themselves to reduce the highest comps to increase the lowest?   

 

I'm with you.   If I'm on any other team, I WANT the Chiefs to pay Mahomes a ton of money, so they'll have less for other teams.   On the other hand, capping Mahomes at $20 million max may not be a good thing for the Chiefs long-term, because if Mahomes can make $20 million and no more, wherever he plays, he'll insist on a series of one-year deals, so he can leave KC for someplace else as soon as he sees a coach or a roster that his likes better.   

 

I really think how much these guys get paid is just a lot of noise that distracts people from football.   Millions of people get paid more than they're worth, and millions or tens of millions more get paid less than they're worth.   That's the way of the world.  

 

 

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19 minutes ago, CLTbills said:

While I don't exactly disagree with you, that's a bit of a misleading statement. The owners don't individually bring in "billions." One report I read used the Green Bay Packers as an example. In 2018, the NFL earned $8.1 Billion in national revenue, meaning each team got about $255 million of that. Then, you get your local revenue (in this case, for the Packers, it was $196 million) which brought their total revenue, not profit, to $455 million. Of that, $213 million went to players, another $208 million to "stadium upkeep, marketing, and team and administrative costs." This left them with an operating income of $38.5 million. A far cry from the "billions" that you claim they bring in. Sure, other teams may bring in more, and maybe the Packers did a big stadium upgrade that year.

 

But the point is, if an owner has invested, like Mr. Pegula, $1.4 BILLION of his own money to buy a team, why shouldn't he want to make a return on that investment? $38.5 million a year is a pretty crappy return for a year on a billion and a half dollar investment, if you ask me. He'd have to own the team for over 36 years at that rate to break even on that investment. And yes, I understand that the value of the team will increase (and already has) over time, but that's not cash in his pocket until he sells the team. I don't blame the owners, if they're only making that much, for wanting to try to retain a bit more. That'd be like you or me investing $14,000 in the stock market and only getting a return of $385 for the year. 

I don't think Pegula bought the Bills to make his money back...these guys are already billionaires...they are never going to make back what they paid. they all make a profit from the revenue. it''s the prestige of being an NFL owner

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4 minutes ago, nucci said:

I don't think Pegula bought the Bills to make his money back...these guys are already billionaires...they are never going to make back what they paid. they all make a profit from the revenue. it''s the prestige of being an NFL owner

They make it all back when they sell. Its like any other asset. You buy and then sell at a higher value, even if you lose or break even on revenue year over year. If Pegula ever wants to sell in 10 years or so he would make hundred of millions, close to a billion compared to the purchase price.

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12 minutes ago, jletha said:

They make it all back when they sell. Its like any other asset. You buy and then sell at a higher value, even if you lose or break even on revenue year over year. If Pegula ever wants to sell in 10 years or so he would make hundred of millions, close to a billion compared to the purchase price.

Thanks, I understand this

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49 minutes ago, boco357 said:

Will go soccer/NBA route soon and have ads on jerseys/helmets/field.  I'm cool with it if it takes some more commercials away.

But it won’t, 

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1 hour ago, nucci said:

there will always be players wanting to play in the NFL....for many of these players, it's the only chance they have for a better life....fantasy football has actually increase the interest in sports. The NFL doesn't make as much off of tickets and they used to. They don't care why people are watching, as long as they watch. I don't like some things about the game...."the look at me after i make a tackle" after every play is annoying but I still love watching

 

Short-term fantasy has a strong upside. Fans will watch more games. It's working... for now.

 

This is a long-term disaster. Let's pretend we're playing the Browns and you drafted Chubb and he gashes us for 150 yards. Are you not going to celebrate secretly when he rips an 80 yarder? Of course you will.

 

So what that does is destroy your idea of love of your team. We love teams like we love dogs, we love them not because they're beautiful, but because we feel like they won't betray us and we won't betray them. Destroy that idea and watch fandom die.

 

It's working now because you love a team. Watch a kid who's dad loves the Bills and they want to play on the net more and do fantasy. Do you really think with such divided loyalties your son will care as much? They can't, they are privately celebrating every touchdown against their home team without the deep seated love we have for their team.

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Just now, BigBillsFan said:

 

Short-term fantasy has a strong upside. Fans will watch more games. It's working... for now.

 

This is a long-term disaster. Let's pretend we're playing the Browns and you drafted Chubb and he gashes us for 150 yards. Are you not going to celebrate when he rips an 80 yarder?

 

So what that does is destroy your idea of love of your team. We love teams like we love dogs, we love them not because they're beautiful, but because we feel like they won't betray us and we won't betray them. Destroy that idea and watch fandom die.

 

It's working now because you love a team. Watch a kid who's dad loves the Bills and they want to play on the net more and do fantasy. Do you really think with such divided loyalties your son will care as much? They can't, they are privately celebrating every touchdown against their home team without the deep seated love we have for their team.

I agree but not everyone plays fantasy and thinks this way...maybe the kid wouldn't even watch football except for fantasy...now he watches and follows every game. I've had conflicts before as I've played for many years. I always want the Bills to win . Chubb can run for 150 and Bills can still win. Not a big deal

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2 hours ago, BigBillsFan said:

I think we're close to the time of "peak football" and the decline of the NFL. Baseball had it's resurgence in the 90's with Sosa and McGuire after it's strike and I believe the same is true for football.

 

I think we're only a decade away from more empty stadiums as TV/internet improves and the fan base of going out to the game with dad in the seasons will be seen as too primitive.

 

I also believe a lot of fandom today are not fans at all. Many of our ratings today are based around fantasy people. I think fantasy teams destroy the sport. It's hard not to root for your guy against the interests of your team. It's great for short term gain, terrible for long-term viability.

 

Once we are past the age of peak football I think that's when things get bad: hold-out, strike, and fans don't care as much = decline and less revenue

 

Peak Hollywood was the 90's. Peak baseball was the 90's too. Basketball and football are still doing well. I think CTE, more players retiring early, and less great QBs might accelerate the decline.

You are underestimating how legalized sports betting will greatly expand further NFL growth.  As gambling on the NFL continues to grow there won't be a peak until all states have it for years.  Also, once gambling availability comes within walking distance of the stadiums, or even in the stadiums themselves, your theory of empty stadiums dies.  Right now there is a sports book in the Meadowlands complex.  You can walk to the Meadowlands race track from your parking spot & they even have shuttle buses to get you there.  That is the future of the NFL: Go to the game, bet the game at either the stadium or a short distance away and root on your bet.  The time of peak football isn't even close to the present.  

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2 hours ago, Buffalo Junction said:

I think this has been a sore subject since the early 90’s when GB pissed off the owners by guaranteeing that Sterling Sharpe the highest WR salary. It was a precedent the league didn’t want to set. Still, I’m surprised that no one has bargained down for a 100% guaranteed contract. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseret.com/platform/amp/1994/9/16/19131074/sharpe-catches-top-pay-as-receiver

 

Cousins has a fully guaranteed contract in Minn, if I'm understanding what you mean.

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10 minutes ago, BigBillsFan said:

 

Short-term fantasy has a strong upside. Fans will watch more games. It's working... for now.

 

This is a long-term disaster. Let's pretend we're playing the Browns and you drafted Chubb and he gashes us for 150 yards. Are you not going to celebrate secretly when he rips an 80 yarder? Of course you will.

 

So what that does is destroy your idea of love of your team. We love teams like we love dogs, we love them not because they're beautiful, but because we feel like they won't betray us and we won't betray them. Destroy that idea and watch fandom die.

 

It's working now because you love a team. Watch a kid who's dad loves the Bills and they want to play on the net more and do fantasy. Do you really think with such divided loyalties your son will care as much? They can't, they are privately celebrating every touchdown against their home team without the deep seated love we have for their team.

As a gambler, I can't agree.  This year in the Bills regular season finale I saw a golden opportunity to bet against the Bills because I knew they were resting their key players.  I bet the Jets on the money line & cashed the bet.  Yes, I was rooting against the Bills 2nd stringers, but it didn't effectively reduce my long term love of the team.  

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