Bills' mishandling of the CB position

[Manther]

6 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

This is exactly why I can see them drafting CB in round 1 of the draft....or Edge rusher, or LB. 

 

Im sure they will be looking at value considering we will be picking so far down, but it wouldn't surprise me at all to see defense get the nod in round 1.

IMHO I think there is minimal chance getting a CB in round one.  15%.  If it was my choice I would say zero.

[Mr. WEO]

 Maybe the walking boot will keep Wallace out of the Burn Unit.

[billsfan89]

4 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

The NFL should really make week 17 a week in which every player on the roster is active. There's no reason not to, and these week 17 games involving teams locked into playoff slots have been a problem for a long time. 

His injury had nothing to do with his small frame. It was a freak leg injury on a non-contact play.

 

The NFL roster size should be expanded to 57 and the amount you dress should be 53. Teams are so thin in general even if they were able to dress everyone. I don't see why a few extra backups and a few extra active people would hurt. This would allow players to come back from injury slower. I also think the NFL should have a "disabled list" where you can put guys on it for 4,6, and 8 weeks and then call up a PS player to replace them for that amount of time or sign a guy off the street. 

 

It would allow teams not have to force to carry and rush back hurt players because they need the bodies. The current IR designated for return tag isn't that great it puts guys out for far too long. You could limit the amount of slots you are able to use but there needs to be a complete overhaul of the NFL's injury system. 

[Success]

We have more depth on this team, at basically every position, than we've had since the '90's.  If something has been mishandled, I missed it.

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

We're good! We have two shut down corners with McKenzie out there. Heck, the Jets didn't even try to throw at him.

[mjt328]

We only have 44 active players on the roster for game day.  It's absolutely impossible to sit EVERY SINGLE STARTER.  Even if you believe our entire bench could play 100% of snaps and special teams, that still leaves 3 starters that need to play.

 

Every player you add, requires another to be released.  So you are suggesting that we SHOULD have signed an extra CB (let's say EJ Gaines or Captain Munnerlyn) to ensure that we can sit Levi Wallace for the meaningless Week 17 game.  Then who do you release?

 

Release an offensive lineman on the back-end of the roster, and that means you need to push more starters at THAT POSITION into the starting lineup on Week 17.  You are simply trading the risk with Wallace for the risk with Dawkins/Spaine/Morse/Feliciano/Ford.  Release a linebacker, and you may be forced to play Matt Milano or Tremaine Edmunds the entire game.  Etc., etc.  I think you get the idea.

 

In my opinion, the only questionable move was starting Josh Allen.  He was in a no-win situation, playing with backup receivers.

 

30 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

The NFL roster size should be expanded to 57 and the amount you dress should be 53. Teams are so thin in general even if they were able to dress everyone. I don't see why a few extra backups and a few extra active people would hurt. This would allow players to come back from injury slower. I also think the NFL should have a "disabled list" where you can put guys on it for 4,6, and 8 weeks and then call up a PS player to replace them for that amount of time or sign a guy off the street. 

 

It would allow teams not have to force to carry and rush back hurt players because they need the bodies. The current IR designated for return tag isn't that great it puts guys out for far too long. You could limit the amount of slots you are able to use but there needs to be a complete overhaul of the NFL's injury system. 

 

Agree 100%.

 

[FeelingOnYouboty]

I really want us to look at Kristian Fulton, Shaun Wade or Jeff Gladney in the 1st round this year 

[billsfan_34]

7 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Mckenzie obviously.

I figured Duke Williams in the corner spot, in a pinch

[Freddie's Dead]

Um, no.  The DBs have been a strength of the team all season long.  You can't sit everyone with only 53 on the roster and 46 active on game day.  There's a reason Marlowe is the 9th string corner.  But I'm confident enough in McBeane that Marlowe is the best 9th string corner available to the Bills (although watching Bodork every week makes me throw up in my mouth a little at that).  The roster is what it is, and we have to live with it now.

[LABILLBACKER]

We have to assume Wallace will be out. That leaves Taron or Kevin covering Stills/Fuller. 

 

YIKES

Sorry,  I don't feel as warm and fuzzy as some of you do with the Johnson's holding down the fort. They are both small and mediocre tacklers.

[Motorin']

The Bills have 10 Defensive backs on the 53 man roster. They play a lot of zone, and the safeties have cb responsibilities.  I think you're overstating your case. 

[HOUSE]

Most people are un aware that Ed Oliver can play defensive line & corner

I see no worries...

[John from Riverside]

10 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

The point is there should have been someone else on the roster to play corner. Most teams have backups at that position. The Bills kept six safeties instead -- four backups for two starting safeties, and only one backup for three starting corners.

Yeah. It's hard to believe that people saw McKenzie out there yesterday and still feel we're in a just fine position depth-wise. I mean, there's all the evidence you need.

You do realize we were sitting starters yesterday right

Edited December 31, 2019 by John from Riverside

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, mjt328 said:

In my opinion, the only questionable move was starting Josh Allen.  He was in a no-win situation, playing with backup receivers

 

IMO they had a specific script they wanted Josh to execute in a real-game situation with real defenders putting pressure on the OL and "speeding up" his clock.  They had adequate receivers for the purpose, including 3 who play significant snaps in games (Gore, Kroft, McKensie).  They accomplished

[noacls]

1 hour ago, LABILLBACKER said:

We have to assume Wallace will be out. That leaves Taron or Kevin covering Stills/Fuller. 

 

YIKES

Sorry,  I don't feel as warm and fuzzy as some of you do with the Johnson's holding down the fort. They are both small and mediocre tacklers.

Kevin Johnson is 6' 185, since when is that small for a corner? Taron is 5'11" 192, not exactly small for a cb either. 

[Scott7975]

11 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

No, it's not about the freak accident. He shouldn't have been playing in the first place; the rest of the starters were gone by then.

 

If someone gets hurt on Saturday, are you comfortable with Siran Neal or Isaiah McKenzie covering Kenny Stills?

 

Dude, you can't sit everyone.  If he sat then who plays?  Its a numbers game for every team.  The Ravens played their starting corner that just signed a huge contract.  They have to.  Its numbers.

[Scott7975]

10 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

I remain thoroughly puzzled. It's hard for me to believe that any objective observer could look at the situation right now and feel comfortable with the depth at the cornerback position.

 

Every single team has depth issues somewhere.

[Albwan]

Not to be negative, the season ended for me @ NE...I don't see Bills having much 

chance vs Texans one way or the other.

[Augie]

I think when you say the FO should have had a better plan, you should be forced to say what your better plan was. Otherwise, it’s just whining. 

 

I mean, it’s not like we had a sucky defense! I think they did a LOT right. It’s all a matter of trade-offs. 

 

. 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Augie

[Max Fischer]

12 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Right. But if Wallace can't go, we're going to trot out White, Johnson, and Johnson as the starters with no backups other than safeties. Any way you slice it, that is paper thin and an area of concern. If one of White or K. Johnson goes down, who goes to the boundary? If T. Johnson goes down, do we think Neal can keep up with the Texans' playmakers in the slot? It's a huge mismatch and could make a difference in the game, even if a guy only misses a series or two.

On this one, take the “L”, Dude. 

[simpleman]

Do posters on here even bother to read the OP before they comment. He was very clear. The issue was the fact that McBeane failed to have enough depth at CB from the beginning of the season and never had the foresight to correct the problem during the whole season. No other NFL team was foolish enough to willingly put themselves in that vulnerable position by choice. Having to play an offensive player at CB was a very predictable and probable outcome at some point in the season. And it happened. 

 It had nothing to do with who they chose or chose not to play. It has nothing to do with who was inactive or active on the roster. It has everything to do with being prepared. If you have no buffer or margin for error  as a viable option at a critical position on both your roster and on  your PS,  that is fully on McBeane. It is about horrible risk management decisions. Not about who you choose to play in a game from among an available qualified pool of players at that position.

[GunnerBill]

19 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

I mean again, the guy injured himself intercepting a pass, with no contact with anything other than the ball.  I've never seen anything like it.  He's made of glass.

 

Meh. It was freak injury. I don't recall any other injuries since he went into the line up as a starter.

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

9 hours ago, Augie said:

I think when you say the FO should have had a better plan, you should be forced to say what your better plan was. Otherwise, it’s just whining. 

 

I mean, it’s not like we had a sucky defense! I think they did a LOT right. It’s all a matter of trade-offs. 

 

. 

I addressed that early in the thread, although not in the OP:

 

I've noted elsewhere in the thread that the Bills stockpiled safeties -- J. Johnson, Marlowe, Coleman -- who barely played, if at all. Going with so many backups there when there are only two starters, both of which have been very reliable and durable throughout their careers, while leaving CB so thin was very puzzling to me. Throw in the fact that T. Johnson and K. Johnson both had significant injury history, this was always an area of concern. They should have kept Gaines and/or Munnerlyn or some other veteran and let go of one or two of the extra safeties.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, simpleman said:

Do posters on here even bother to read the OP before they comment. He was very clear. The issue was the fact that McBeane failed to have enough depth at CB from the beginning of the season and never had the foresight to correct the problem during the whole season. No other NFL team was foolish enough to willingly put themselves in that vulnerable position by choice. Having to play an offensive player at CB was a very predictable and probable outcome at some point in the season. And it happened. 

 It had nothing to do with who they chose or chose not to play. It has nothing to do with who was inactive or active on the roster. It has everything to do with being prepared. If you have no buffer or margin for error  as a viable option at a critical position on both your roster and on  your PS,  that is fully on McBeane. It is about horrible risk management decisions. Not about who you choose to play in a game from among an available qualified pool of players at that position.

 

And as countless people have responded his original summation that the Bills only kept 4 corners is wrong. They kept 5.

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

8 minutes ago, simpleman said:

Do posters on here even bother to read the OP before they comment. He was very clear. The issue was the fact that McBeane failed to have enough depth at CB from the beginning of the season and never had the foresight to correct the problem during the whole season. No other NFL team was foolish enough to willingly put themselves in that vulnerable position by choice. Having to play an offensive player at CB was a very predictable and probable outcome at some point in the season. And it happened. 

 It had nothing to do with who they chose or chose not to play. It has nothing to do with who was inactive or active on the roster. It has everything to do with being prepared. If you have no buffer or margin for error  as a viable option at a critical position on both your roster and on  your PS,  that is fully on McBeane. It is about horrible risk management decisions. Not about who you choose to play in a game from among an available qualified pool of players at that position.

Thanks! Bingo!

[oldmanfan]

They have guys like Neal that can play both.  And if you keep more CBs then you don’t have as many safeties (or other position) and if an injury happens there you could say the same thing the OP tries to say about CB.  being critical just to be critical isn’t warranted.

[mjt328]

1 hour ago, simpleman said:

Do posters on here even bother to read the OP before they comment. He was very clear. The issue was the fact that McBeane failed to have enough depth at CB from the beginning of the season and never had the foresight to correct the problem during the whole season. No other NFL team was foolish enough to willingly put themselves in that vulnerable position by choice. Having to play an offensive player at CB was a very predictable and probable outcome at some point in the season. And it happened. 

 It had nothing to do with who they chose or chose not to play. It has nothing to do with who was inactive or active on the roster. It has everything to do with being prepared. If you have no buffer or margin for error  as a viable option at a critical position on both your roster and on  your PS,  that is fully on McBeane. It is about horrible risk management decisions. Not about who you choose to play in a game from among an available qualified pool of players at that position.

 

Do you bother to read the countless responses?

To create a "buffer" at the cornerback position, you absolutely MUST take away depth at a different position.

 

The NFL allows for 53 roster spots overall, and 46 active slots on game day.

There are 11 starters on offense, 11 on defense, a kicker, a punter and long-snapper.

If you deactivate 7 starters (which they did), that still leaves us only 28 backups available that can play.

You cannot expect 28 guys to handle 100% of offensive, defensive and special teams snaps.  

 

The Bills were comfortable playing out the season with 4 cornerbacks, because they have a safety (Siran Neal) who plays both positions.  It's the same idea behind carrying only 9 offensive linemen, because Spencer Long and Ryan Bates can handle multiple spots.  If we add an extra CB or OL, then we can only carry five WRs during the season.  Or we can only carry three RBs during the season.  The NFL leaves virtually no room for error with roster spots.  Brandon Beane/Sean McDermott went light at CB/OL because they were counting on versatility helping with depth.  But when we hit Week 17, they didn't have the numbers at that position to sit the starters.  They were left with no choice, and as (bad) luck has it - we suffered injuries during the game at CB and OL.

 

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

My primary issue is that they kept six (okay, five depending on your perspective) safeties for two safety spots and only four (five? see above) corners, several of whom had injury histories, for three corner spots. It's unusual around the league and for the Bills, and it led to this situation.

[Doc]

22 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

My primary issue is that they kept six (okay, five depending on your perspective) safeties for two safety spots and only four (five? see above) corners, several of whom had injury histories, for three corner spots. It's unusual around the league and for the Bills, and it led to this situation.

 

Again they had 4 full-time CBs and a CB/S in Neal.  And it wasn't an issue until the last meaningless game because of a freak injury on a wet field.  If most other teams had suffered an injury to their #2 CB, they'd be in deep ***** but the Bills have depth and can sign guys like Gaines, Lewis or Munnerlynn if they're worried. 

[fergie's ire]

That's it.  Bring back Dick back Dick "you can never have too many corners" Jauron.

[Coach Tuesday]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Meh. It was freak injury. I don't recall any other injuries since he went into the line up as a starter.

He injured his shoulder making a tackle against the Eagles.  He’s made of glass.

[Jerome007]

On 12/30/2019 at 9:17 AM, tumaro02 said:

Wow! The Patriots based on your argument have been extremely negligent! The have only "3" CBs listed. Please... you are getting hung up on how a team lists their defensive backs. The Patriots list 10 defensive backs (3 CB, 7 DB). The Bills list 10 defensive backs (4 CB, 6 S). We all know that Siran Neal is the backup slot CB and they have Cam Lewis on the PS. Don't get hung up on labels.

Now that is a legit counterargument. He wasn't calling for McD and Beane's heads! Just mentioning how they took a risk with roster selection at CB. Legit point, but you offer a great counter instead of just mocking the post.