How did Zay Jones/Foster’s lack of production impact Daboll’s offense

[Jerry Jabber]

Going into the season, it seemed (on paper)that the Bills had four good WR’s in Brown, Beasley, Zay Jones and Foster. Jones was shipped out to Oakland due to his poor play and Foster has been invisible this season (except for his catch last week). So far, the only receivers producing consistently are Brown and Beasley as McKenzie, Roberts and Foster have been used as Gadget/situational awareness and have had minimal impact (along with a good share of drops). If Jones and Foster has been producing this year for the Bills as they did last year (Fosters second half of the season last year to be precise), how much more effective would the offense be? While I haven’t been impressed with Daboll’s play calling this season, I would tend to believe if the Bills offseason plan had worked out to fruition with having four good WR’s, the offense would be scoring more points and have longer time of possession. Should the Bills give Daboll another season, assuming the Bills make more upgrades to the  WR group in the offseason? 

[mikemac2001]

We need a true number one WR 

 

it’s been clear from the start of the year and it hurts the overall offense 

[NewEra]

7 minutes ago, mikemac2001 said:

We need a true number one WR 

 

it’s been clear from the start of the year and it hurts the overall offense 

Disagree.

 

we need better QB play

 

yes, we need another good WR.  I don’t believe we NEED the mystical “true #1 WR”

Edited November 15, 2019 by NewEra

[Nuncha]

Their lack of production didn't change the fact Cueboll doesn't commit to running the ball or using his best running back enough.

[Ramza86]

There will be nothing wrong with Foster once Allen gets his deep ball confidence back.

[T master]

Can't answer that question just yet . Dabol is a homer from the Buffalo area so i'm rooting for him & i hope he gets this figured out but that being said they say the second year for a player there should be a huge jump for them & to this point in some instances it seems as though Dabol has held Josh back a bit .

 

I think getting something for Zay was a good thing i believe his 1 really good college season was a fluke & that's what his draft was based on & i although i hoped he would be a better player for the Bills i never really took him as they did for what ever reason .

 

I think the talent is on the team to make them better than what they have shown to this point but due to 2 things Allen's lack of experience & Dabol's knee jerk reactions at times to abandon certain things like the run game against the Browns & not utilizing Allen's athleticism with in the scheme has hurt this offense .

 

Dabol is trying to make the Pats offense work here which maybe certain pieces of that O is good but the talent here is totally different & the scheme should be built to excentuate the strength's of the personal on it . More roll out's for Josh or boot leg's what ever you want to call them & even more planned QB runs like they are doing in the Ravens scheme .

 

If Dabol doesn't pull off getting a better showing on the field & they decide to get rid of him i for one hope they give the OC position to Dorsey to keep some familiarity to the system & maybe he can keep the progression of not only Josh's career moving forward but his too !! 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Seems to me they were able to get to Josh’s long ball.  
 

Not dropping them at s another topic all together.  

[yungmack]

Problem seems more Allen than Daboll or the receivers.

[Jerry Jabber]

1 hour ago, T master said:

Can't answer that question just yet . Dabol is a homer from the Buffalo area so i'm rooting for him & i hope he gets this figured out but that being said they say the second year for a player there should be a huge jump for them & to this point in some instances it seems as though Dabol has held Josh back a bit .

 

I think getting something for Zay was a good thing i believe his 1 really good college season was a fluke & that's what his draft was based on & i although i hoped he would be a better player for the Bills i never really took him as they did for what ever reason .

 

I think the talent is on the team to make them better than what they have shown to this point but due to 2 things Allen's lack of experience & Dabol's knee jerk reactions at times to abandon certain things like the run game against the Browns & not utilizing Allen's athleticism with in the scheme has hurt this offense .

 

Dabol is trying to make the Pats offense work here which maybe certain pieces of that O is good but the talent here is totally different & the scheme should be built to excentuate the strength's of the personal on it . More roll out's for Josh or boot leg's what ever you want to call them & even more planned QB runs like they are doing in the Ravens scheme .

 

If Dabol doesn't pull off getting a better showing on the field & they decide to get rid of him i for one hope they give the OC position to Dorsey to keep some familiarity to the system & maybe he can keep the progression of not only Josh's career moving forward but his too !! 

Agree 100% Especially on having Allen roll out more, bootlegs, etc...

1 hour ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

Seems to me they were able to get to Josh’s long ball.  
 

Not dropping them at s another topic all together.  

I think after all the interceptions had earlier on this season, especially in the NE game, Allen is worried about throwing more INT's, which is why he's been overthrowing the ball trying to make sure if the Bills receiver is not able to catch it, neither will the opposing defense.

[Jerry Jabber]

31 minutes ago, yungmack said:

Problem seems more Allen than Daboll or the receivers.

I disagree with that. As T master stated above "Allen's lack of experience & Dabol's knee jerk reactions at times to abandon certain things like the run game against the Browns & not utilizing Allen's athleticism with in the scheme has hurt this offense." Also, outside of Brown and Beasley, the rest of the receivers are barely having any kind of impact, whether that's getting separation from the defenders, dropping balls, etc... Even the top three receivers on the team have had their share of drops as well [Brown, Beasley, Knox] so it's not all on Allen. 

[CircleTheWagons99]

Daboll is trying too hard to push his own agenda, he is not catering the offense to its strengths.  That falls on him and not any of the players.  Allen is young and raw, making him throw the ball soo much when it is obvious he is struggling is just strange to me.  They need to run the ball more to open up the passing game for Allen right now.

Edited November 15, 2019 by CircleTheWagons99

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, yungmack said:

Problem seems more Allen than Daboll or the receivers.

 

I think it's both.  I don't think Foster runs consistent routes in games, which calls into question whether he runs consistent routes between practice and games.

And he doesn't seem able to track the ball.

8 minutes ago, CircleTheWagons99 said:

Daboll is trying too hard to push his own agenda, he is not catering the offense to its strengths.  That falls on him and not any of the players.  Allen is young and raw, making him throw the ball soo much when it is obvious he is struggling is just strange to me.  They need to run the ball more to open up the passing game for Allen right now.

 

It's legit fair that in the abstract, a pass heavy game was the right approach for the Eagles game and for the Browns game, and they did try to stack the box against us a lot.

 

But I 100% agree with you that it's pushing Allen beyond what he's able to deliver for 60 minutes in a game.  I was actually impressed by some aspects of Allen's play in the Browns game.  But he's not there yet where he can carry the team (whether or not he ever will be)

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, yungmack said:

Problem seems more Allen than Daboll or the receivers.

 

Is it?  Both Brown & Beasley are catching a lot of passes.  The drop off is at the 3rd & 4th spot.  Production there has been abysmal.  And last I looked Jones wasn't exactly setting Oakland on fire where rookie late round pick Hunter Renfro is a much more productive WR.

 

BTW, in 3 games in which he was active at Oakland Jones was targeted 9 times and caught 6 for 58 yards and no TD's.

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by CincyBillsFan

[Gugny]

Since getting rid of Zay Jones and all but benching Bob Foster, the offense has been more anemic than ever.

 

Personally, I think it's coincidental.  They neutered Josh Allen during the bye week.

[blacklabel]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think it's both.  I don't think Foster runs consistent routes in games, which calls into question whether he runs consistent routes between practice and games.

And he doesn't seem able to track the ball.

 

It's legit fair that in the abstract, a pass heavy game was the right approach for the Eagles game and for the Browns game, and they did try to stack the box against us a lot.

 

But I 100% agree with you that it's pushing Allen beyond what he's able to deliver for 60 minutes in a game.  I was actually impressed by some aspects of Allen's play in the Browns game.  But he's not there yet where he can carry the team (whether or not he ever will be)

 

Yeah, I thought he made some great throws during that game, consistency has eluded him, though. But also, you'd think Daboll would call a bit of a more balanced game. Called like 20 run plays (including Allen's runs, some which were called, others weren't, but he finished the game with six carries, Gore with five, and Singletary with eight, oh and Pat DiMarco got one) to 41 passing attempts. I get that Cleveland stacked the box but they seemed like they abandoned it too early. And it seems like they've really scaled back on the more creative runs and the pre-snap motions and stuff. 

 

As for receivers, I think John Brown has played really well. There's also something to be said about the smaller receivers this team has in that it forces Allen to be as accurate as he can with his ball placement since these guys have a smaller catch radius (although Brown is pretty good at extending to make the catch), however, I really think Allen would benefit from a Mike Evans-type of receiver. A guy with size that can go up and get it and has a large catch radius and can bring in throws that don't have the greatest placement, which happens with Allen a few times a game. I know a lot of people want Duke to be that guy but I don't know if that's gonna happen. I'm not someone who believes a team absolutely needs a #1 WR. In the grand scheme of things, they aren't real high on the priority list for a lot of teams. Julio Jones, OBJ, Evans, AJ Green, Hopkins, etc. those guys are all great but none of them are leading their teams to a championship and it's extremely rare that any team is just a receiver away from getting over the hump and contending. That said, it's certainly a big help to have a guy like that who you can count on and go to often. I'm hoping in the off-season that Beane brings in some offensive playmakers, they need it. 

[Big Turk]

I think Allen's lack of ability to complete deep ball has played more of a role in all of this...teams are more willing to creep us closer to the LOS because they aren't afraid of Allen throwing over the top because they know he is going to airmail the ball 10 yards over their head...

 

What's the point of a WB that can throw it 80 yards of he throws it 60 yards where the receiver is at 50 yards?

 

If i was Allen i would spend all offseason throwing deep balls to players simulating game action...if he has to pay people to come out and practice then that is what he needs to do...its inexcusable for a starting QB to be that bad at completing deep passes as Allen is

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

51 minutes ago, CircleTheWagons99 said:

Daboll is trying too hard to push his own agenda, he is not catering the offense to its strengths.  That falls on him and not any of the players.  Allen is young and raw, making him throw the ball soo much when it is obvious he is struggling is just strange to me.  They need to run the ball more to open up the passing game for Allen right now.

 

Now our coaches have "agendas,"  like they are some covert agents, here to infiltrate the organization. Reasonable minds can disagree on the best way to develop Allen - protect him or trial by fire. In any event, having a philosophy that doesn't comport with your belief does not mean he has an "agenda." 

[Tcali]

3 hours ago, NewEra said:

Disagree.

 

we need better QB play

 

yes, we need another good WR.  I don’t believe we NEED the mystical “true #1 WR”

true. WR is not the problem.JA is.

[BringBackOrton]

29 minutes ago, Gugny said:

Since getting rid of Zay Jones and all but benching Bob Foster, the offense has been more anemic than ever.

 

Personally, I think it's coincidental.  They neutered Josh Allen during the bye week.

Eh, I think Joshua Tree put some really bad play and tendencies on film vs the Pats and has been trying to dig himself out of it since then. It’s no coincidence we have seen a TON of Cover 1 and Cover Zero since that game. 

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, mikemac2001 said:

We need a true number one WR 

 

it’s been clear from the start of the year and it hurts the overall offense 

We haven't had a true #1 since Moulds....

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

2 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

We haven't had a true #1 since Moulds....

I thought some saw watkins as a # 1? well, when he wasn't sidelined with an injury.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

19 minutes ago, Tcali said:

true. WR is not the problem.JA is.

 

Really, would any of our guys be a #1 on other teams?

 

[colin]

allen has definitely missed guys or thrown the odd bad ball.  seems to be regressing and to not have the same wide open ability he showed last year.   

 

NE smashed us by confusing allen, overwhelming our blockers, and then knocking allen out.  we still rushed for a good clip w frank gore barely moving that game tho.

 

I have two problems with Dabol.  1:  he chooses not to run the ball, rather than have it shut down.  nothing will help a raw qb as much as that

2:  he really tries to put a square peg into a round hole.  Him rushing gore umpteen times on 3rd/4th and short for nothing, having our barely qualified for an NFL roster WRs running around failing to beat DBs, and having our raw inconsistent QB trying to be tom brady behind our good run and not so good pass blocking line.

 

allen obviously needs to grow up and make the plays that are out there for him, but there is even less evidence that dabol knows what he is doing.

 

i really want him to figure it out and balance the O, but i don't see how anyone can look at this offense and say he's put them in the best position to win.

 

 

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Really, would any of our guys be a #1 on other teams?

 

Yep, John Brown has played extremely well. He would be a WR upgrade for several NFL teams.

[CaptnCoke11]

4 hours ago, mikemac2001 said:

We need a true number one WR 

 

it’s been clear from the start of the year and it hurts the overall offense 

I don’t think they necessarily need a true number 1.  Only a few teams are lucky enough to have one of them.  Another WR like Brown would be just fine as well.  Just need a legit threat on the outside opposite Brown.  

Edited November 15, 2019 by CaptnCoke11

[DuckyBoys]

They need a starting caliber 2nd outside receiver.  Also would be nice if there were more short check down type options available to beat the blitz  No idea why were not seeing Beasley a ton more on 3rd down against lbers

[4BillsintheBurgh]

5 hours ago, mikemac2001 said:

We need a true number one WR 

 

it’s been clear from the start of the year and it hurts the overall offense 

Couldn't agree more. Josh needs that security blanket at this point of his development. John brown is not that guy, and adding a wr better and larger than brown will round out the wr group nicely.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

I just posted this in another thread 

 

He's completing 64.4% of passes traveling 10-20 yards, which is good for seventh in the NFL this season."

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 hours ago, CircleTheWagons99 said:

Daboll is trying too hard to push his own agenda, he is not catering the offense to its strengths.  That falls on him and not any of the players.  Allen is young and raw, making him throw the ball soo much when it is obvious he is struggling is just strange to me.  They need to run the ball more to open up the passing game for Allen right now.

 

 

....a fair and accurate assessment.......he does not have enough experience ala his one year stops as OC to have "his own agenda"......you devise based on your personnel strengths IMO........of course an OC is NOT going to turn around a fledgling offense in ONE year...BUT....if a guy shows promise, creativity and command of offensive play calling, don't you retain him or did I miss something?........

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

8 hours ago, mikemac2001 said:

We need a true number one WR 

 

it’s been clear from the start of the year and it hurts the overall offense 

 

I think another experienced strong #2 like Brown would also be fine and much cheaper.

 

7 hours ago, T master said:

Can't answer that question just yet . Dabol is a homer from the Buffalo area so i'm rooting for him & i hope he gets this figured out but that being said they say the second year for a player there should be a huge jump for them & to this point in some instances it seems as though Dabol has held Josh back a bit .

 

I think getting something for Zay was a good thing i believe his 1 really good college season was a fluke & that's what his draft was based on & i although i hoped he would be a better player for the Bills i never really took him as they did for what ever reason .

 

I think the talent is on the team to make them better than what they have shown to this point but due to 2 things Allen's lack of experience & Dabol's knee jerk reactions at times to abandon certain things like the run game against the Browns & not utilizing Allen's athleticism with in the scheme has hurt this offense .

 

Dabol is trying to make the Pats offense work here which maybe certain pieces of that O is good but the talent here is totally different & the scheme should be built to excentuate the strength's of the personal on it . More roll out's for Josh or boot leg's what ever you want to call them & even more planned QB runs like they are doing in the Ravens scheme .

 

If Dabol doesn't pull off getting a better showing on the field & they decide to get rid of him i for one hope they give the OC position to Dorsey to keep some familiarity to the system & maybe he can keep the progression of not only Josh's career moving forward but his too !! 

 

Haven't paid any attention to the Raiders, has Zay been playing or doing anything out there?

[Ayjent]

50 minutes ago, 4BillsintheBurgh said:

Couldn't agree more. Josh needs that security blanket at this point of his development. John brown is not that guy, and adding a wr better and larger than brown will round out the wr group nicely.

The dropoff at WR from Beasley and Brown has been huge.

 

Roberts and McKenzie are just not good WRs unless you utilize them in bubble screens and very short routes that tries to utilize them in space.  You can really see how bad they are at running routes if you watch the all 22 - sometimes they slow down not realizing that they are being targeted, misjudge the ball while it is in flight, or just don't run crisp routes.  Daboll is being very un-Patriot like in not utilizing them at what they are best at.  Last year they used McKenzie the way they should have in the passing game - this year the only thing of note he does is run the shuttle pass sweep.

 

Foster has been inactive and he's definitely not clicking with Allen for whatever reason, but I've seen him misjudge a couple of throws pretty badly.  I like what he did last year, but whatever they had working last year they are not going back to or it just simply isn't working - I don't really know.

 

Williams has played a decent role when he gets a chance - I like his ability to be a big target but for some reason he doesn't get much opportunity - maybe he is just not getting enough separation, but at least he is a threat.  This one is a head scratcher for me, because he is probably the only guy outside of Knox that can win a contested throw, which is especially nice in the redzone.

 

Is Allen to blame for some of this? Sure - if something isn't working everyone is playing a part in it.  But I really think Daboll is the guy that it starts with and you can go from there.  Expecting him to get better may be expecting too much tbh.  He is going to do what he has done in some way and I don't expect him to have an epiphany and morph into an excellent OC over the rest of the season or next, etc.  He's okay - he's not the worst, but they could do better, and they could do worse.

[Thurman#1]

20 hours ago, NewEra said:

Disagree.

 

we need better QB play

 

yes, we need another good WR.  I don’t believe we NEED the mystical “true #1 WR”

 

 

This. Nobody needs a true #1. It sure doesn't hurt in any way to get one, and if we get one, that would be great. But how many recent SB winners have had true #1 WRs?

 

Exactly.

 

In any case, John Brown is playing very very well. He's fine as our #1. Not a "true #1" as the description generally seems to refer to the top 6 or 8 guys in the league. But he's well inside the top 32 WRs.

 

What we need is for a bunch of things to happen. We need the QB to improve. We need the OL to gel. They've been playing together better, but they have a ways to go. And we could use a bit of an upgrade in talent at WR, another RB and maybe another upgrade at wherever they feel it's most need on the OL. I'd expect a lot of that over the offseason.

[4BillsintheBurgh]

3 hours ago, Ayjent said:

The dropoff at WR from Beasley and Brown has been huge.

 

 

In the end, I don't think we need to go 5 wr deep, I don't think JA is at the point in his development where that's a viable option. Take the third down with john brown rrom sunday that everyone was talking about. Allen had one read (brown) instead of trying to find the guy who would come open on the blitz. That's where a better catch radius and someone who be open when covered helps JA be a better qb.

 

As far as super bowl concerns, the only way we get near that level is to turn the ball over like we did a couple years ago. Otherwise we're good but not consistently challenging the top teams until Josh can improve enough to raise the level of our offensive talent with his play. I think the development path we're taking is a good one, hopefully by the end of next year he will start to put all the aspects of his game together.

[Locomark]

22 hours ago, mikemac2001 said:

We need a true number one WR 

 

it’s been clear from the start of the year and it hurts the overall offense 

That is 100% the problem. If Belicheat takes Brown away, what’s left to threaten people in the passing game? That hesitation, while everyone tries to rationalize maybe it could Singletary or Knox, is your answer. 

This team is loaded with role players and needs a stud.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Locomark

[NewEra]

16 minutes ago, Locomark said:

That is 100% the problem. If Belicheat takes Brown away, what’s left to threaten people in the passing game? That hesitation, while everyone tries to rationalize maybe it could Singletary or Knox, is your answer. 

This team is loaded with role players and needs a stud.

This team NEEDS better QB play.  If Allen doesn’t improve from where he currently stands, he’s not the answer.  

 

I’m not a JA hater.  I love the kid and I think he has a chance.......but he’s currently not very good.

[peterpan]

Foster has been injured most of the year.  He was far too good last year to give up on this year. 

[CLTbills]

I don't know what Zay has to do with his refusal to give Singletary the ball more. Also, has the passing offense really changed that much since the Zay trade?

[cd1]

On 11/15/2019 at 10:18 AM, mikemac2001 said:

We need a true number one WR 

 

it’s been clear from the start of the year and it hurts the overall offense 

 

 

Agree!!

 

I have watched a lot more games this year [Game Pass] and see other receivers making incredible catches on a regular basis. Then I re-watch our games and see Allen's passes bounce off the hands of our receivers with alarming frequency. [????]

 

Other QB's benefit greatly from having receivers pull in errant passes. While we have to pray that our guys can hold onto something that hits them on the numbers - FCOL.