Meanwhile at Dolphins camp...

[That's No Moon]

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Vegas sets their lines to get people to bet.   

Vegas sets their lines to try to get 50% of the action on either side of the bet so they end up winning no matter what happens.  That's generally why the lines move, trying to off-set bets they've taken, not because they necessarily think the team has gotten better or worse.  If it's 4.5 people have to be POUNDING the under which makes the over a decent play, especially if it drops any more.

[Steptide]

1 hour ago, Boca BIlls said:

Of course you would b.c you wouldn't care if it came with only 6 wins.

Bad teams? He had chances to "Win and you're in" and he INTed his way out of those games.

Ya, once with the jets. Bengals were not good when he was with them, bills were not good, Houston was not good, titans were not good, Tampa was not good, and I highly doubt the Dolphins will be any good 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

It's the difference between being the 18th and 45th highest completion% of all time. 24 YPG is the difference between being the 26th and 46th YPG QB.

 

Helps me understand where you're coming from, but looking at "all time" - including many years when the passing game was quite different and more limited - I think is magnifying the difference you see.

 

Let's look at last year, when completion % 60.1 vs 62.8 would be the difference between 21st and 28.  Is 21 better than 28?  Sure.  Similar with YPG - 232.2 would slot in as 19th vs 208 at 24th. 

 

Is one higher, sure.  Would I want to construct an argument that one is "statistically superior" personally, no - no I would not.  They're both below average.

 

YMMV

[LSHMEAB]

I'll put it this way. AT HOME, I'd rather face Tannehill than even Matt Moore. He was better in Miami, but still not a QB I ever "feared." He's not a gamechanger and he definitely struggles in cold weather. Not a fan.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Helps me understand where you're coming from, but looking at "all time" - including many years when the passing game was quite different and more limited - I think is magnifying the difference you see.

 

Let's look at last year, when completion % 60.1 vs 62.8 would be the difference between 21st and 28.  Is 21 better than 28?  Sure.  Similar with YPG - 232.2 would slot in as 19th vs 208 at 24th. 

 

Is one higher, sure.  Would I want to construct an argument that one is "statistically superior" personally, no - no I would not.  They're both below average.

 

YMMV

 

If you're having a hard time with 'statistically superior', how about just 'better' then.

 

Tannehill has better stats, across the board, than Fitzpatrick career-wise. Better comp%, better YPA, better YPG, better rating, better TD/INT, better ANY/A. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

If you're having a hard time with 'statistically superior', how about just 'better' then.

Tannehill has better stats, across the board, than Fitzpatrick career-wise. Better comp%, better YPA, better YPG, better rating, better TD/INT, better ANY/A. 

 

Sure.  My point is I think it's a "distinction without a difference", not particularly meaningful

[GoBills808]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Sure.  My point is I think it's a "distinction without a difference", not particularly meaningful

Fair. But the evidence, even if it doesn't hit your threshold of meaningfulness, is still all pointed one way. The original argument was which QB was better, and I see zero evidence to say Fitzpatrick.

[White Linen]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Yes, I weigh the most recent more than RT’s last “good” season 4 years ago.  

 

We’ll agree to disagree.  I know what Fitz is.  But his best is a lot more scary than RT’s.  There were very few qbs I feared the Bills going against less than Tannehill.  

 

I think we have a right to laugh at them for them both.  

[Ol Dirty B]

35 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 

I should have said it's not a meaningful debate. Tannehill is statistically superior in every category. 

 

Why are you guys arguing so hard over which ***** stinks more?

 

They both don't get it done as a starter. I'm glad it's not the Bills problem.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

Why are you guys arguing so hard over which ***** stinks more?

 

They both don't get it done as a starter. I'm glad it's not the Bills problem.

Don’t tell me how to argue!

[Ol Dirty B]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Don’t tell me how to argue!

 

Fair enough lol. It just sounds like a bad miami sports talk show, fitz vs tannehill.

 

Right now they're debating fitz or rosen, which sounds like a no brainer to me. You see what you got in Rosen and if he sucks enough hopefully you'll draft 1.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

Fair enough lol. It just sounds like a bad miami sports talk show, fitz vs tannehill.

 

Right now they're debating fitz or rosen, which sounds like a no brainer to me. You see what you got in Rosen and if he sucks enough hopefully you'll draft 1.

 

Fitz shall seduce them off the sensible path.  Wait and see.

[Teddy KGB]

3 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

4.5.  I know Cutler and Tannehill are huge losses ? but this talk about how terrible the Fins are is going overboard.  

 

Name one skill position player on the Dolphins ???

 

They are terrible.     Save that money.  

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

Notice how Flores is only dumping Irish Oline coaches?  What's up with that? ?

[billspro]

5 hours ago, aristocrat said:

Phins reporter says Rosen hasn’t looked good 

 

Not surprised, he is in a horrible situation. Very few QBs would overcome that imo. 

[TigerJ]

The Fins replaced Flaherty with Dave Gugliemo.  Gugliemo has had some impressive stints as an O-line coach and some not so impressive.  He's in his third stint with Miami, having also coached with the Giants, Patriots and last season with a very good Colts offensive line.  

Edited July 30, 2019 by TigerJ

[billsgpr88]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

 

If you're having a hard time with 'statistically superior', how about just 'better' then.

 

Tannehill has better stats, across the board, than Fitzpatrick career-wise. Better comp%, better YPA, better YPG, better rating, better TD/INT, better ANY/A. 

 

I've been following this debate and felt compelled to chime in. IMO, Fitzpatrick is far more dangerous a qb to face, without question.

 

Citing statistics is a misleading way to assess a qb's value; sure, the big ones such as TDs and INTs matter, but completion percentage and yards are not necessarily indicative of a qb's ability to pull out a win. 

 

For years, Tannehill's bread and butter was dumping off the ball to Jarvis Landry and relying on his YAC. When it's third and long and a qb dumps off the ball off for a 5 yard gain, it helps his completion percentage and yards, but doesn't get the team any closer to winning the game ( remember Tyrod or post concussion Trent?). 

 

I haven't followed Tannehill much beyond Bills games, but I think we all know what we saw out there: a QB with no mobility, and no killer instinct to go for the big play when their team needs one. And without that a QB doesn't stand a chance of sustaining a winning record in the league. Fitz, for all of his flaws, does have that instinct to go for it; sometimes it works out, often it doesn't, but at least you gotta chance with him.

 

As a Bills fan, I will sincerely miss seeing Tannehill on the schedule twice a year 

[YoloinOhio]

4 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

 

I don’t know I see a Dalton type Career for Darnold. I guess though that could be classified as Solid 

He seems like a nice kid but he was so bad his sr year at usc. Turnover machine and displayed zero leadership. I didn’t see every game but the ones i did see were painful 

[Buffalo716]

9 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

He seems like a nice kid but he was so bad his sr year at usc. Turnover machine and displayed zero leadership. I didn’t see every game but the ones i did see were painful 

Darnold only stayed thru his RS sophomore season at USC

[YoloinOhio]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

Darnold only stayed thru his RS sophomore season at USC

Right, his jr year (academic) at usc 

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Right, his jr year (academic) at usc 

He's got talent but makes way to many mental mistakes and doesn't have the cannon to compensate for it

[MrEpsYtown]

I sat in on a clinic with Flaherty a couple of years ago. Nice guy and all but really wasn't super impressed with his knowledge and process etc. But he has a super bowl ring and I'm on my couch. He's like Danny Crossman, one of these mediocre coaches who hangs around and keeps getting jobs. Best of luck to him, but Dolphins probably made the right move for them. 

[GoBills808]

45 minutes ago, billsgpr88 said:

 

I've been following this debate and felt compelled to chime in. IMO, Fitzpatrick is far more dangerous a qb to face, without question.

 

Citing statistics is a misleading way to assess a qb's value; sure, the big ones such as TDs and INTs matter, but completion percentage and yards are not necessarily indicative of a qb's ability to pull out a win. 

 

For years, Tannehill's bread and butter was dumping off the ball to Jarvis Landry and relying on his YAC. When it's third and long and a qb dumps off the ball off for a 5 yard gain, it helps his completion percentage and yards, but doesn't get the team any closer to winning the game ( remember Tyrod or post concussion Trent?). 

 

I haven't followed Tannehill much beyond Bills games, but I think we all know what we saw out there: a QB with no mobility, and no killer instinct to go for the big play when their team needs one. And without that a QB doesn't stand a chance of sustaining a winning record in the league. Fitz, for all of his flaws, does have that instinct to go for it; sometimes it works out, often it doesn't, but at least you gotta chance with him.

 

As a Bills fan, I will sincerely miss seeing Tannehill on the schedule twice a year 

 

Tannehill's teams win at a higher % than do Fitz's. As far as mobility, neither is what I'd call a mobile QB but Tannehill averages more yards per rush.

[JoPar_v2]

6 hours ago, IDBillzFan said:

Ya gotta kinda wonder if something else isn't going on. You spend all this time getting ready for training camp...and you dump your OL coach less than a week in?

 

I don’t think you can call them a “well run” organization at this point. Ross doesn’t seem like a complete a**hat to me, but he is entirely clueless. 

 

Considering they fired Gase, it makes me moist thinking about how the Jets are going to implode this year as well.

[BruceVilanch]

Haven't read all the comments so I apologize if this has already been said, but it takes some stones to realize a mistake this early and correct it. It's much easier to fix a problem in late July than to realize the OL coach doesn't know his stuff in mid november. Regardless I am happy to see the dolphins struggling.

[billsgpr88]

22 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 

Tannehill's teams win at a higher % than do Fitz's. As far as mobility, neither is what I'd call a mobile QB but Tannehill averages more yards per rush.

 

I never said Fitz is a better runner, I just described what I see in Tannehill. Again, you are using statistics in a misleading way, as Fitzpatrick has been on some terrible teams. Dak Prescott has a higher winning % than Aaron Rodgers, does that mean he is a better qb? The point I was trying to make is Tannehill cannot put on a team on his back; there may be some advanced metrics that quantify this, but conventional stats won't show it. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

7 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Remember when we fired our OC after training camp, then should have beaten the Pats in NE on MNF?

Remember when they cut the starting LT the next day

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, billsgpr88 said:

 

I never said Fitz is a better runner, I just described what I see in Tannehill. Again, you are using statistics in a misleading way, as Fitzpatrick has been on some terrible teams. Dak Prescott has a higher winning % than Aaron Rodgers, does that mean he is a better qb? The point I was trying to make is Tannehill cannot put on a team on his back; there may be some advanced metrics that quantify this, but conventional stats won't show it. 

You were the one who talked about winning. 

[BuffaloButt]

Is Miami the worst team in the NFL this year!  Definitely a possibility??!!

Edited July 30, 2019 by BuffaloButt

[fansince88]

11 hours ago, Boca BIlls said:

Going to be some cheap tickets for Miami games

I think the wife and I are going to escape NNY weather and head down to Florida for a 4 or 5 day weekend for our game

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, billsgpr88 said:

 

 

I haven't followed Tannehill much beyond Bills games, but I think we all know what we saw out there: a QB with no mobility, and no killer instinct to go for the big play when their team needs one. And without that a QB doesn't stand a chance of sustaining a winning record in the league. Fitz, for all of his flaws, does have that instinct to go for it; sometimes it works out, often it doesn't, but at least you gotta chance with him.

 

I know I sound slightly deranged on the subject of Ryan Tannehill but I have watched him play around 40 times and my honest assessment is he doesn't play to "win the game" as Herm would say. He was a late convert to QB in college and my honest opinion is that he has never had confidence in his ability to play the position, he is deeply insecure and knows deep down that he sucks and as such he plays each game trying to hide his inability as well as possible. He has zero instinct to go for it because he has zero confidence in his ability to go for it. You have no chance with Ryan Tannehill. No chance. No hope. His numbers tell you he is in that Dalton type bracket but the film tells you different. 

 

Bruce Arians always says "no risk it, no biscuit" and Tannehill hasn't seen a single biscuit in the 7 years he started for Miami. You can't win with him. Because when you need someone to take a risk to make a play Ryan Tannehill won't do it. And people presume when I say that I mean he won't throw the deep ball.... but it is more than that. He won't try and fit that ball into that tight window (whether that is 6 yards past the line of scrimmage or 60 yards past the line of scrimmage) even when it is 4th down and the game is on the line. He plays the position scared. It is very Tyrod esque. I actually said to @Kirby Jackson when Tyrod was our Quarterback here that "he is probably a better Quarterback that Fitz but I feel like I know I can never win playing Tyrod's way. The odds on winning Fitz's way are small - because that killer INT is always around the corner - but there might be that day on the big stage where he makes that throw." Tannehill is never doing that. Because he is never taking that throw on. 

 

I don't care what numbers you put up. You cannot play Quarterback in this league playing scared. And that is how Tannehill plays and that is why his numbers are a mirage. You can't win with him. You can't even hope with him. With Fitzpatrick the hope might kill you..... with Tannehill it is the hope that is killed. 

Edited July 30, 2019 by GunnerBill

[eball]

@GunnerBill it's been amusing reading your diatribe on Tannehill in this thread -- you are certainly passionate in your distaste for him as an NFL QB but I have to admit you're spot on.  It's amazing Miami stuck with him for so long.  Fitzy was always more entertaining and at least plays to win -- he just doesn't always have the ability to make it happen.

 

One wonders what direction the Bills franchise would have taken if Buddy Nix was never catfished and they kept Fitz around even after drafting EJ.  It doesn't matter now because I'm really happy with where they're headed, but it's an interesting "what if" to think about.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...look like a testy bunch.......

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

12 hours ago, aristocrat said:

 

Except Tanny Could throw for 4000 yards which tyrod could never do

 

AND come away with a victory.  

[vincec]

6 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Remember when they cut the starting LT the next day

Good times!

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, eball said:

@GunnerBill it's been amusing reading your diatribe on Tannehill in this thread -- you are certainly passionate in your distaste for him as an NFL QB but I have to admit you're spot on.  It's amazing Miami stuck with him for so long.  Fitzy was always more entertaining and at least plays to win -- he just doesn't always have the ability to make it happen.

 

One wonders what direction the Bills franchise would have taken if Buddy Nix was never catfished and they kept Fitz around even after drafting EJ.  It doesn't matter now because I'm really happy with where they're headed, but it's an interesting "what if" to think about.

I actually agree with you here.  Not to go back to the Gailey days but I think the biggest mistake they made was not drafting a qb when we had Fitz.  Every young qb would benefit from having Fitz to learn from.  I think the problem is Fitz is too good of a guy to be a backup and often ends up playing better than the young guy and teams don’t want that headache.  He was better than Winston last year.  

 

But ultimately, his physical limitations hold him back in the long run.  Still better than Tannehill. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

11 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

 

I should have said it's not a meaningful debate. Tannehill is statistically superior in every category. 

Bah!  Fitz pressers rock!  ?

7 hours ago, Jeetz1231 said:

It's much easier to fix a problem in late July than to realize the OL coach doesn't know his stuff in mid november. 

“What?!  We get to field 11 players?!”  ?

[RyanC883]

This thread, including the title, is making my morning.   So much funny stuff in here.  

15 hours ago, scribo said:

Don't forget the Skins.

 

I have them as the worst team in the league.  Dolphins may be close behind.  They are in quasi-rebuild mode.  Seems like they could be stuck there for a while.  Really depends on if the Dolphins D can sustain another year of carrying the team, because the offense looks offensive.  

[PromoTheRobot]

Don't forget, kids. It's still too early to write off Josh Rosen.

 

 

[YoloinOhio]

Tire fire firing an OL coach at this point. And wth is the point of playing Fitz? That accomplishes nothing for them this year. Too good to tank, too bad to take them anywhere, and they won’t know what they have in Rosen. Brilliant.