Grading the Pegulas Thus Far

[ProcessAccepted]

1 hour ago, nucci said:

A little bit? They should get a much lower grade for that mess.....failing grade for the Sabres......having said that....looks like they finally hired good GMs for both teams and are focusing on front office  and league issues

 

I was just understating for effect. That really was a cluster ?

[dpberr]

B+

PROS:  Team remains in Buffalo and they have invested real money into the business.  Team is well run financially.  Put the right people in place to end the playoff drought.  Isn't caving to NFL demands for a new stadium.  Team appears to have a direction.  Supports the players.  (No rush to judgement on McCoy's issues, Zay Jones, Incognito)

 

CONS:  On the job training as an NFL owner was probably responsible for both Marrone and Ryan debacles, setting Whaley up for failure (not trusting him to do the job) and keeping Brandon around for too long (trusting him too much).  

Edited September 6, 2018 by dpberr

[Kirby Jackson]

C’s for me

 

I love that they aren’t afraid to spend. That includes facilities, amenities, players, coaches, etc... That is the single most important thing that an owner can do, enable those underneath them to do what needs to be done. 

 

The negative part is that I don’t believe they really know what they are doing. They’ve bungled multiple hires (Murray, Bylsma, Ryan). They are still learning on the job but I don’t believe them to be the savviest of business people. That has been corroborated by multiple people that they have had dealings with. They were affectionately refereed to as “the Clampets” during the Harbor Center project.

 

The important thing is that they have money though. If they hire the right people and enable them to do their job they will be good owners. The best owners in sports (think Peter Holt in San Antonio or the Rooney’s in Pittsburgh) stay in the background. 

[nucci]

8 minutes ago, ProcessAccepted said:

 

I was just understating for effect. That really was a cluster ?

got it

[May Day 10]

C for the Bills.  Its "incomplete" at this point.  It all pivots on Beane and McDermott.  If they succeed (Im willing to give them a few more years and I am optimistic), then the Pegulas will score high.  If the thing blows up.... Pegulas get an F for constantly rejecting experience in running the team.  Their apparent desire to be directly involved frightens me.

 

 

 

F for the Sabres.  Im primarily a Sabres fan, and they have chronically made poor decisions since the moment they purchased the team.  I can detail each step of the way, but I have done so many times.  This season was rock-bottom once again.  The 2nd worst season I have witnessed in 35 years of watching (and understanding) hockey.... only slightly better than the Reinhart-tank season.  They were extremely fortunate to land the lottery because it about-faced everyone's attitudes about the team/franchise.  Again, like the Bills above, they have rejected any experience in running the team in exchange for their own close involvement.  Flying by the seat of their pants.  The arena experience is as stale and boring as it ever has been.   The bottom line is, from 2011-2018 the Sabres are in the darkest days of their franchise (on the ice) and it is not even close.  The team was coming off a Division Championship season in 2010, followed by a mad rush to claim the last playoff spot in 2011.  

Edited September 6, 2018 by May Day 10

[Bills Fan in Beantown]

Totally a results driven business but the results are different for fans and the bottom line for the teams.  They both have products that keep us at the table.  When New England performs like the Bills the stadium will be empty like it was before Parcels went there.  We keep coming, regardless.  Does it say more about us than it does about the owners, I don't know.  

 

Either way, this thread just makes me think of the Ryans and pisses me off.  

[SoTier]

25 minutes ago, billsfan_34 said:

Just because the drought is over means nothing. The biggest mistake they have made was allowing Russ Brandon to stay on, and then letting him run the Sabres as well. It was a colossal failure. The next huge whiff was hiring Loud Mouth Rex Ryan. I think we are all grateful to the Pegulas for saving the team. I am hopeful they have learned from their mistakes and have it right this time. 

 

I totally agree on your points about Brandon and Ryan.  I too hope that they learned from their mistakes but I have a niggling suspicion that Beane is a Russ Brandon "money ball" disciple.   The way the Bills have handled the re-signing (or lack of) of the good young vets they've developed hasn't changed a bit from the way they were handled during the Brandon regime, and allowing the HC to dictate to the GM about personnel is exactly what the Bills have done since Russ Brandon took over the football team in 2006.  The same with the draft.  The difference between 2017 (Brandon/Whaley) vs 2018 (Beane/McDermott) in personnel matters is the quality of the talent evaluation and the wheeling dealing.  The underlying philosophy of replacing young vets due for big days with draft picks and lesser FAs continues.

[hondo in seattle]

When I was a college sophomore, my friends would sometimes talk about their 'A' or 'B' averages.  In contrast, I would wryly mention my 'I' average.  I had a bad habit of not turning in my work and/or missing exams and my official grade for several classes my freshman year was "Incomplete" until I made up the missing work.

 

So, in regards to the Bills, I'd give them an "I."  There were some missteps - let's call them "rookie mistakes" - at first.  But they seem to be getting better in their roles as owners.   

 

It can take years to turn around a franchise and I'd like to see more before awarding a grade.

Edited September 6, 2018 by hondo in seattle

[BobChalmers]

2 hours ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

D across the board until either team actually shows results.

 

Huh???

 

Newsflash - longest playoff drought in any major American sports league ends at 17 years - Bills make the Playoffs.

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, Shotgunner said:

A's across the board.

 

They may not have had championships in their short tenure, but they are clearly doing everything they can to succeed. They continue to attempt to put the right people in place, and let them do their job- without getting in the way.

 

Once they find the right people (and maybe they have in some cases), it will eventually work.

 

Drought over, Sabres have probably the NHL's best prospect pool.

 

From another standpoint, their contributions to Buffalo cannot be understated. They are the only type of owners that can undoubtedly fill the shoes of Ralph Wilson, and may turn out to provide more production to boot.

 

Nearly every owner is doing that.  Why does it merit an A?

 

A for the Sabres??  That's nuts.

[gjv001]

Definitely an A. Thanks to the Pegulas, Buffalo has two major league franchises. Let's face it, who else would have bought those two franchises and kept them in a small market venue. They certainly could have added value to their investment by moving both franchises. Even as terrible as the management of both franchises has been, the Pegulas have been willing to invest in all aspects, so as to achieve winning franchises. Football and Hockey fans in Buffalo should thank their lucky star that the Pegulas exist. 

[ricojes]

2 minutes ago, gjv001 said:

Definitely an A. Thanks to the Pegulas, Buffalo has two major league franchises. Let's face it, who else would have bought those two franchises and kept them in a small market venue. They certainly could have added value to their investment by moving both franchises. Even as terrible as the management of both franchises has been, the Pegulas have been willing to invest in all aspects, so as to achieve winning franchises. Football and Hockey fans in Buffalo should thank their lucky star that the Pegulas exist. 

Definitely, but I think that's why the OP stated "Aside from keeping the teams in WNY" grade the Pegula's.  They get an A from me, and just about everyone else, every time if you factor that into the equation...

Edited September 6, 2018 by ricojes

[nucci]

2 minutes ago, gjv001 said:

Definitely an A. Thanks to the Pegulas, Buffalo has two major league franchises. Let's face it, who else would have bought those two franchises and kept them in a small market venue. They certainly could have added value to their investment by moving both franchises. Even as terrible as the management of both franchises has been, the Pegulas have been willing to invest in all aspects, so as to achieve winning franchises. Football and Hockey fans in Buffalo should thank their lucky star that the Pegulas exist. 

The grade is based on what they have done so far....not the fact that they bought both teams...Sabres have been the worst team in hockey since they took over

[mead107]

I gave them anA because they let Gugny be a fan. 

 

Besides they purchased meadcoins from me.  

[gjv001]

1 minute ago, nucci said:

The grade is based on what they have done so far....not the fact that they bought both teams...Sabres have been the worst team in hockey since they took over

I would say buying the Sabres and keeping it in Buffalo is the most important thing they have done so far if I'm a Buffalonian. Yes, I understand the Sabres are not winning now. But for Buffalo Fans, I think they would take a losing Sabre Season over a NO Sabre season.

[May Day 10]

Where were the Sabres going?  They were rock solid, in zero danger of moving.  Golisano made the team financially viable and locked in the waiting list (which has now been breached).

 

Balsielle (sp) inquired with Golisano about buying the team and Golisano told him to take a hike as the plan would almost certainly be a move to Hamilton. 

 

 

Golisano has a very unfair reputation with Sabres fans IMO.   There were a lot of things to dislike.... Larry Quinn with too much power and full job security, slug uniforms, "1 year contract" revelation that brought carnage in 2006 and later 2007... but HE was the one who stepped up when the team was in REAL peril and there was no owner on the horizon and the team was a shaky investment.  He was committed to Buffalo and re-kindled interest in the team that wasnt seen since the 70s and (very) early 80s.  The team was financially solvent for the first time since the 80s.

Edited September 6, 2018 by May Day 10

[mannc]

Just keep Terry away from the microphone.

[Beerstm]

For me, I can't just ignore the fact that they kept the team in Buffalo.  With that being said, they get an "A".  I'll forever be grateful!  

[atlbillsfan1975]

An a for the Bills. No question asked. I feel they have learned from their past in regards to Whaley and Rex. They have two good young football people in place in Beane and McDermott. Given time i think Beane and McDermott will produce great results.  We could be looking at 10 years of playoff football very soon with a SB appearance and possible win. 

Wake me up when the Sabres are relevant. I am a  total bandwagon fan. Between the Bills, Braves, (Atl) Hawks and UGA i do not have a ton of time for the Sabres. If the Sabres win i am happy for my hometown getting good publicity. 

[nucci]

30 minutes ago, gjv001 said:

I would say buying the Sabres and keeping it in Buffalo is the most important thing they have done so far if I'm a Buffalonian. Yes, I understand the Sabres are not winning now. But for Buffalo Fans, I think they would take a losing Sabre Season over a NO Sabre season.

I get it but not the premise of the thread.

[4_kidd_4]

1 hour ago, BobChalmers said:

 

Huh???

 

Newsflash - longest playoff drought in any major American sports league ends at 17 years - Bills make the Playoffs.

 

 

 

It was certainly fun, but not that impressive.

 

Not ready to claim ‘success’ over needing an abacus and a slide rule to get into the playoffs to get shut down by Jax.

 

Consistency is the key. Control your own destiny, string some winning seasons together, win the division, then I’ll listen.

 

I’m not as easy to please as you, to each their own.

[The_Dude]

Kim’s butt gets an A+. 

 

Terry is doofy as hell. 

[LabattBlue]

3 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

C’s for me

 

I love that they aren’t afraid to spend. That includes facilities, amenities, players, coaches, etc... That is the single most important thing that an owner can do, enable those underneath them to do what needs to be done. 

 

The negative part is that I don’t believe they really know what they are doing. They’ve bungled multiple hires (Murray, Bylsma, Ryan). They are still learning on the job but I don’t believe them to be the savviest of business people. That has been corroborated by multiple people that they have had dealings with. They were affectionately refereed to as “the Clampets” during the Harbor Center project.

 

The important thing is that they have money though. If they hire the right people and enable them to do their job they will be good owners. The best owners in sports (think Peter Holt in San Antonio or the Rooney’s in Pittsburgh) stay in the background. 

Bravo...except i gave them a generous "D" for the Sabres .  PS Two t's in Clampett. 

2 hours ago, gjv001 said:

I would say buying the Sabres and keeping it in Buffalo is the most important thing they have done so far if I'm a Buffalonian. Yes, I understand the Sabres are not winning now. But for Buffalo Fans, I think they would take a losing Sabre Season over a NO Sabre season.

I take it that reading comprehension is not your strong suit?

Edited September 6, 2018 by LabattBlue

[Freddie's Dead]

C and D, because you didn't use +'s or -'s.  I'd give them a C- for the Bills, subjecting us to that flaming !@#$ Rex Ryan, before getting rid of Whaley, and giving us McBeane and playoffs.  As far as the Sabres?  Jesus.  D-.  The only reason it's not an F is because of Eichel.  But playoffs aren't even on the horizon for the Sabres.  Plus they had to fire their guy Russ for chasing tail.  Let's hope they learn from their mistakes, and soon.

[Augie]

7 hours ago, Gugny said:

I gave them a C because of the Ryan Bros., Barnum and Bailey Circus they created.

 

It seems they've learned from it; time will tell.

 

They were newbies who made a mistake but quickly realized it and cleaned it up. I actually give them credit for quickly sucking it up and moving on. I always thought in business that sometimes you come out better by making mistakes, if you do an amazing job of accepting it, owning it and correcting it. 

 

 

Ohh! And they still play in WNY! They get almost a decade of grace just for that! 

Edited September 6, 2018 by Augie

[Dopey]

2 B's.

They took over 2 franchises that were a hot mess. Bills grade would be an A, if not for the Rex debacle.

Patience with the Sabres hasn't waned yet...yet.

[RochesterRob]

1 hour ago, Augie said:

 

They were newbies who made a mistake but quickly realized it and cleaned it up. I actually give them credit for quickly sucking it up and moving on. I always thought in business that sometimes you come out better by making mistakes, if you do an amazing job of accepting it, owning it and correcting it. 

 

 

Ohh! And they still play in WNY! They get almost a decade of grace just for that! 

  None of the keyboard geniuses here make mistakes.  They were born all knowing and all powerful.

[StrikeParry]

8 hours ago, Chris66 said:

Its hard to compare the 2 sports. Hockey you go to the bottom and almost guarateed your going to get a good if not great player. 

Key word “almost.” They got to pick a so-called generational player in Eichel a few years ago and they still stink. Let’s hope Dahlin isn’t a repeat.

[May Day 10]

1 hour ago, RochesterRob said:

  None of the keyboard geniuses here make mistakes.  They were born all knowing and all powerful.

 

If i bought a team... during the purchase process i would be scouring the football world and assembling a management team to right the ship and guide the transition and build from the top down

 

Coming in unprepared and sticking with russ/whaley is inexcusable.  Especially after burning their hand on the stove the same way with the sabres

 

I would be comfortable admitting i dont know anything and tell management ill be there to accept the lombardi trophy.  Not 'scouting' quarterbacks 

 

[Rigotz]

If you gave them a C or below, shame on you.

They kept the F*ing team in Buffalo, single handedly.

They're opening up their pockets for the city of Buffalo and by all accounts, made a good recent hire of McDermott and Beane.

It really bothers me how ungrateful you people are.

[swnybillsfan]

i voted for "B" in both cases. it seems they went for splash over substance, and oldschool over new to begin in both organizations. but then they seemed to go a bit younger, with a more focused direction in both cases, so there is hope. 

[RochesterRob]

58 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

 

If i bought a team... during the purchase process i would be scouring the football world and assembling a management team to right the ship and guide the transition and build from the top down

 

Coming in unprepared and sticking with russ/whaley is inexcusable.  Especially after burning their hand on the stove the same way with the sabres

 

I would be comfortable admitting i dont know anything and tell management ill be there to accept the lombardi trophy.  Not 'scouting' quarterbacks 

 

  How does anyone know what the Pegula's did and did not do?  You are assuming that the people that you asked would jump on the first plane to Buffalo just because you asked.  Experts are also people in that they may have loyalties to other organizations or other persons affiliated with other teams.  Some like Bill Parcells are just plain jerks who get off on sticking it to others.  Assembling a management team I have a feeling is easier said than done.  Going with Russ/Doug may have been the only option the Pegula's had at the time.  

[Coach Tuesday]

Hired two rookie GMs and paid the price.  Fired them both and hired... two more rookie GMs.  They are killing me.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Rigotz said:

If you gave them a C or below, shame on you.

They kept the F*ing team in Buffalo, single handedly.

They're opening up their pockets for the city of Buffalo and by all accounts, made a good recent hire of McDermott and Beane.

It really bothers me how ungrateful you people are.

 

I think you have to separate keeping the Bills in Buffalo from everything else. Thar should be taken as read. 

[May Day 10]

13 hours ago, RochesterRob said:

  How does anyone know what the Pegula's did and did not do?  You are assuming that the people that you asked would jump on the first plane to Buffalo just because you asked.  Experts are also people in that they may have loyalties to other organizations or other persons affiliated with other teams.  Some like Bill Parcells are just plain jerks who get off on sticking it to others.  Assembling a management team I have a feeling is easier said than done.  Going with Russ/Doug may have been the only option the Pegula's had at the time.  

 

I do not know what they did.  However, with both teams, they came in without help.  It showed with the Sabres as they retained the management... then decided to change it only when it was absolutely boiling over with fans in a series of half-measures.  They got rid of Ruff a month into a shortened season, after a lockout, when a new coach could have had a year and a half to prepare.  Then, the following season, they got rid of Regier in November, a month into a season again and brought in a completely inexperienced LaFontaine (based on a chance meeting) and a fly by the seat of the pants coach in Nolan.  Then months later hired an inexperienced young GM who ran the team into a tree, squandering a staggering amount of organization assets...... The Pegulas again, hired a first-time GM, who, before winning the lottery, made the team worse.  Through 7 years owning the Sabres, the Pegulas have not brought in any sort of experience or help at a management level.  I have witnessed a string of awful decisions that plague the franchise, often times embarrassing.  They have been stuck at the very bottom of the NHL for going on 5 years now.  They are paying so much money to people who aren't actively working or playing for them.    They have also kept the front office pretty much consistent, tons of nepotism that dates back pre-Pegula, and the franchise from an off-ice perspective really needs refreshing.   I thought Ted Black was doing a decent job.  You also have other hi-jinks like LaFontaine's "resignation", the situation around Russ Brandon, the unfair dismissal of Ted Nolan, etc.  

 

The Sabres have been a disaster and deserve an F. 

 

The Bills, is more incomplete.  We will see how this works out.  It has been a similar path as the Sabres, with trying to make it work with failed management, hitting a tree, and at this point Beane/McDermott = LaFontaine/Murray.  Maybe (hopefully) it will work out and the Bills will be primed in the next few years for perennial contention.  It is also possible it creates a dumpster fire and sets them back 5 years like Murray did.  Then at that point, the Pegulas will need to choose to either get help, or try their hand again at the full interview process and choosing a young executive, who doesnt mind owners helping scout players.

 

Terry Pegula said last Summer that he didnt want anyone else in control but he and his wife, and he really regrets handing some degree of control of the Sabres to a team president.  My fear is that owning Sports teams is a mid-life crisis vehicle and these teams are merely a motorcycle substitute.... toys to play with and entertain a man who can afford anything. 

 

 

With that said, I DO like the Pegulas.  I love the stability of the teams and resources available, as well as the downtown improvements.  They are likeable people, easy to get behind.   Someday, they are bound to strike the correct note with a coach/GM combo.  I'm about out of patience though with the Sabres (although with the Bills I am willing to wait a few more years before contention).

[Coach Tuesday]

22 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

With that said, I DO like the Pegulas.  I love the stability of the teams and resources available, as well as the downtown improvements.  They are likeable people, easy to get behind.   Someday, they are bound to strike the correct note with a coach/GM combo.  I'm about out of patience though with the Sabres (although with the Bills I am willing to wait a few more years before contention).

 

Well said - though your tune has changed somewhat re: the Bills, you seem to be getting more skeptical of what Beane and McD bring to the table.  Which I agree with - Beane has shown very little ability to scout pro personnel to date, and his roster-building decisions are mind-boggling to me.  But you really hit at the core issue, which is that the Pegulas continue to hire unproven executives to "run" their teams, which executives keep running those teams right into the ground.  They have some kind of ingrained allergy to bringing in experienced team presidents and GMs, and it's the reason their teams suck so badly.  It might be different if the Pegulas themselves had experience running sports teams, but they don't - yet they refuse to hand the reigns over to folks who actually know what they're doing.

 

I'm not optimistic about the Bills, although you're right it's too soon to grade.  I see a roster with one aging playmaker, a bunch of middling vets, and very little young, up-and-coming depth.  I see an offense totally bereft of skilled players and a defense that doesn't look well-constructed to stop the run - something that became a serious concern at the end of last season (not coincidentally after Dareus was shipped out for a song).  And I question whether the fans are really prepared to stomach a 2-4 win season which seems likely at this point - and whether the fans' ire will make its way up to the owner's box, as it inevitably does, creating serious pressure on Beane & Co. to spend big in free agency next year.  As we know, that rarely works out in the long run...

[May Day 10]

23 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Well said - though your tune has changed somewhat re: the Bills, you seem to be getting more skeptical of what Beane and McD bring to the table.  Which I agree with - Beane has shown very little ability to scout pro personnel to date, and his roster-building decisions are mind-boggling to me.  But you really hit at the core issue, which is that the Pegulas continue to hire unproven executives to "run" their teams, which executives keep running those teams right into the ground.  They have some kind of ingrained allergy to bringing in experienced team presidents and GMs, and it's the reason their teams suck so badly.  It might be different if the Pegulas themselves had experience running sports teams, but they don't - yet they refuse to hand the reigns over to folks who actually know what they're doing.

 

I'm not optimistic about the Bills, although you're right it's too soon to grade.  I see a roster with one aging playmaker, a bunch of middling vets, and very little young, up-and-coming depth.  I see an offense totally bereft of skilled players and a defense that doesn't look well-constructed to stop the run - something that became a serious concern at the end of last season (not coincidentally after Dareus was shipped out for a song).  And I question whether the fans are really prepared to stomach a 2-4 win season which seems likely at this point - and whether the fans' ire will make its way up to the owner's box, as it inevitably does, creating serious pressure on Beane & Co. to spend big in free agency next year.  As we know, that rarely works out in the long run...

 

I was more optimistic before recently.  I feel like there are a few warning signs.  Going into the season with only Peterman and Allen seems like a risky move.  Trading McCarron seems like an unnecessary risk.  He seems like a great guy and has been through the grind a handful of times.  Even on the bench, he brings value.  I also dislike trading up to the core.  With a QB it is permissible.  With trading up for a linebacker though.  Although he looked great on the car lot... I dont know.  In the NFL, with all the injuries, career unpredictability, etc., many assets > 1 player.  They also have one of the older NFL rosters.  

 

They have a fairly clean canvas though with all the dead cap money coming off the books.  They have a QB with top-end physical talent.  They have 10 2019 draft picks, including a pick that could very well be a top 3 pick (I'm content with this being a step-back season).  McDermott seems like a very good coach.  He seems very detail-oriented, seems receptable to change for the good of the team.  He also is a great motivator.  Watching him addressing the team makes me want to suit up and run through a wall.  

 

Im still guardedly optimistic

[LABILLBACKER]

A+ for keeping the team in Buffalo 

 

B-  for hiring Rex

 

D  Sabres on a slow cook

[The Wiz]

Grading them is kinda a weird thing to do.  They aren't football people.  They aren't hockey people.  They are business people.  Grading them based on what the teams have done doesn't really reflect anything honestly.  They whiffed on Rex because the people they trusted told them to hire him.  They whiffed on Murray and dancing Dan likely because the people they trusted told them to.

 

They have done great things for Buffalo as a community which I think is fair to grade them on.  Keeping the team in Buffalo is also something that you can grade them on.  Hiring people that they think is a good fit for the team and it not working out is something that every owner has to deal with.  Doesn't make them bad owners, just means they made a mistake.

 

They either learn from it or they keep hiring Jeff FIsher's forever.  That's just my feeling anyways.

[Coach Tuesday]

The Pegulas may be the worst owners in professional sports.  They are lovely people - they have no idea what they're doing, but refuse to listen to outside advice and continue to hire incompetent executives based on their gut feel.  They have worked hard and spent a ton of money and have nothing to show for it in either sport - both of their teams are poorly-run tire fires.