Double dip at receiver?

[The Jokeman]

1 hour ago, GustheDog33 said:

Different game in '85.  it isn't a clean comparison.  Rice and Smith are both all-time greats at their position, but the rules were different then than they are now.  

True the Lions totally messed up taking Aidan Hutchinson over Drake London. 

[ddaryl]

maybe we should try the illusive Triple

 

[Aussie Joe]

5 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Yes, but.. The Draft is simply a crap shoot. Especially with WRs. Ya just never know and they typically take a few years to realize their potential. Could be a bust or could be a Jerry Butler/JD Hill. Imo, a very good WR to play with Josh for a few seasons is best left to a trade or FA signing -Not early Draft picks.

I want the best  WR result possible ….  But Last year their biggest FA signing was McGovern at like $7.5m a year …and their cap is just as tight his year …

 

I don’t see them acquiring a big name WR via trade or FA

Edited January 3 by Aussie Joe

[DJB]

55 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

I would actually be in favor of signing a UFA WR or trading for one, and filling in the defense with draft picks (especially if Beane can do some cap magic to kick the can down the road). We could be picking 24 or later in the draft (if we make it to the divisional round). If you look at the WR taken around there the past few years not a lot have made a huge impact their rookie seasons (assuming the goal is to have improved WR productivity next season):

2023
20: Jaxon Smith-Njigba
21: Quentin Johnston
22: Zay Flowers
23: Jordan Addison
39: Jonathan Mingo

2022
18: Treylon Burks

34: Christian Watson

2021
20: Kadarius Toney
27: Rashod Bateman
34: Elijah Moore

There are zero 1k yard rookie seasons on this list (I guess we'll see after next week, but likely not). JSN, Flowers and Addison have had the best rookie seasons of the bunch and the rest have been nothing special. So a 30% success rate over this smallish sample size. No difference makers were selected 24 or later. I guess if we miss the playoffs or lose in the wild card round, then the chances of getting a real difference maker increases.

The problem is you are using a 3 year snapshot for data….and it a very weak 3 year stretch at that. (2023 is decent I loved Addison the most)

 

Also WR’s in FA cost a boatload. We don’t have the cap space to add an impact guy and we can’t overspend on an average player 

 

We need to take a shot in round 1 on a high end WR and there are 3 of them in this class 

[Rigotz]

The only reason I don't like this is we just invested a 1st round pick on one tight end and are spending $15M on another.

 

You've got Shakir and can probably get a nice vet as a 4th option in the passing game.

 

I'm good with spending another 1st round pick on a WR, but another 2nd round pick might be overkill.

 

WR1 - Diggs

WR2 - 1st round pick

TE1 - Kincaid (1st round)

TE2 - Knox ($15M/yr)

WR3 - Shakir

 

Do we really need to spend another 2nd round pick? Is that more important than o-line and defense at this point?

[GustheDog33]

20 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

True the Lions totally messed up taking Aidan Hutchinson over Drake London. 

Important to note that they took Jameson Williams at 14th overall in that draft.  Hutchinson may have been the best prospect in that draft while London, Olave, Garrett Wilson, Jahan Dotson, Treylon Burkes and Willams were all taken between picks 8 and 18.

 

I would argue the Lions took the best player available (literally) knowing they were going to get one of these top 6 WRs at 14.

 

I also think London is probably thriving if he gets drafted to Detroit because the QB play in ATL has been putrid at best.  Goff isn't elite, but he is good and London would be a factor for the Lions.

 

Edge is an important position, no doubt, but in today's NFL the passing game is the emphasis. 

 

All in all, we can play the game all day long.  I prefer we play to win by blowing the game open and scoring a lot of points.  You prefer to have an edge rusher in the game while the opponent in nursing a 3 point lead hoping they decide to throw a pass.  You can win either way, one just seems easier. 🤷‍♂️

 

[LABILLBACKER]

32 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

The only reason I don't like this is we just invested a 1st round pick on one tight end and are spending $15M on another.

 

You've got Shakir and can probably get a nice vet as a 4th option in the passing game.

 

I'm good with spending another 1st round pick on a WR, but another 2nd round pick might be overkill.

 

WR1 - Diggs

WR2 - 1st round pick

TE1 - Kincaid (1st round)

TE2 - Knox ($15M/yr)

WR3 - Shakir

 

Do we really need to spend another 2nd round pick? Is that more important than o-line and defense at this point?

As long as we at least try and target Odunze/ Coleman in the first, then go ahead and draft a safety in the 2nd.  And yes with all the qbs that might go early, Odunze could fall to 12-18.  

[Chicken Boo]

 

I love this highlight reel because it shows you everything.  Natural hands catcher, fluid and runs the full route tree.  

 

6'3" 190lbs 4.3 speed

 

Reminds me of Chad Johnson.  Hopefully he's there at #32 😉

[Koufax]

17 hours ago, whorlnut said:

Disagree. What if BPA is a QB?  What if it’s a CB three years in a row?  It’s a flawed system. You identify areas of need and then take BPA based on that board. 

 

Yes, there are two factors that have to be considered for Best Player Available, and keep it from being an absolute:

1) Weighting "Best" to positional importance. This should be part of defining "Best" a 99 RG is not worth as much as a 97 LT. a 95 RB is not worth as much as a 92 DE. This should be pretty clear, but bears mentioning.

 

2) Understanding multi-year depth, especially at non-rotational positions. But if the best player available is clearly a QB, your three options are take him (bad idea), take someone not as good a player (what I am suggesting you try NOT to do), or trade down out of the pick.

 

3) Don't pretend your rankings are absolute and precise.  Definitely try to rank Trevor Lawrence higher than Zach Wilson, and probably try to rank Micah Parsons higher than Jaycee Horn, but it is okay if you rank Ja'Marr Chase, (5) Patrick Surtain (9) and Micah Parsons (12) the same, and use other factors to decide who you pick.

But if you pick Caleb Farley or Greg Newsome over Micah Parsons because you "need" a CB, even if you don't think they are as good players, that is a mistake that if you (as we hope you did) think Micah Parsons is higher ranked.

Getting great football players on to your team and having them contribute to a five year window is more key than the perception of a single year need and reaching on inferior players just to watch your needs change.

 

 

[Aussie Joe]

1 hour ago, Rigotz said:

The only reason I don't like this is we just invested a 1st round pick on one tight end and are spending $15M on another.

 

You've got Shakir and can probably get a nice vet as a 4th option in the passing game.

 

I'm good with spending another 1st round pick on a WR, but another 2nd round pick might be overkill.

 

WR1 - Diggs

WR2 - 1st round pick

TE1 - Kincaid (1st round)

TE2 - Knox ($15M/yr)

WR3 - Shakir

 

Do we really need to spend another 2nd round pick? Is that more important than o-line and defense at this point?

They are likey to only be bringing Diggs and Shakir back … so they require some decent WR pieces next year from somewhere… if they get value for the picks then I don’t have a problem with the double dip … big if though.

 

Knox has got one year left given his contract and then I expect  they will be trading him …

 

 

Edited January 3 by Aussie Joe

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, DJB said:

The problem is you are using a 3 year snapshot for data….and it a very weak 3 year stretch at that. (2023 is decent I loved Addison the most)

 

Also WR’s in FA cost a boatload. We don’t have the cap space to add an impact guy and we can’t overspend on an average player 

 

We need to take a shot in round 1 on a high end WR and there are 3 of them in this class 

You were the one who used the term “recent”-  I guess this is what you do

1 hour ago, GustheDog33 said:

Important to note that they took Jameson Williams at 14th overall in that draft.  Hutchinson may have been the best prospect in that draft while London, Olave, Garrett Wilson, Jahan Dotson, Treylon Burkes and Willams were all taken between picks 8 and 18.

 

I would argue the Lions took the best player available (literally) knowing they were going to get one of these top 6 WRs at 14.

 

I also think London is probably thriving if he gets drafted to Detroit because the QB play in ATL has been putrid at best.  Goff isn't elite, but he is good and London would be a factor for the Lions.

 

Edge is an important position, no doubt, but in today's NFL the passing game is the emphasis. 

 

All in all, we can play the game all day long.  I prefer we play to win by blowing the game open and scoring a lot of points.  You prefer to have an edge rusher in the game while the opponent in nursing a 3 point lead hoping they decide to throw a pass.  You can win either way, one just seems easier. 🤷‍♂️

 

Is it though? The 2 best teams in the league are built on sacking the QB and running the football.  
 

pass rush is equally as important.  If you don’t have a great pass rusher, you won’t be winning the Super Bowl imo.  The chiefs won the SB with JuJu as WR1

[BillsFanForever19]

9 hours ago, BBFL said:

 

 

 

Disagree with the Jefferson part. You could tell by watching LSU games that he was as talented, if not more so, then the guys who were drafted from that program before him: 

Landry, Beckham, Bowe just to name a few. 
 

On the other hand if, as a spectator, you feel Chase was going to be special then Justin is in that same boat. 

 

If you say that you knew Justin Jefferson was going to become the type of player he became, be as good as he was that quickly Pre-Draft, and be a better option than Stefon Diggs immediately - you're lying. 

 

All draft prospects, I don't care who they are, are a projection. Some of the most talented bust. Some of the lower ranked prospects become HOF'ers. They're all a crap chute until they produce. Stefon Diggs was a sure thing.

 

Only through hindsight can anyone question going with Stefon Diggs over the 5th WR left on the board in the Draft. Even if you or Beane liked JJ Pre-Draft, there was no way to tell if he'd be the WR left on the board at that point.

Edited January 3 by BillsFanForever19

[The Cincinnati Kid]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

You were the one who used the term “recent”-  I guess this is what you do

Is it though? The 2 best teams in the league are built on sacking the QB and running the football.  
 

pass rush is equally as important.  If you don’t have a great pass rusher, you won’t be winning the Super Bowl imo.  The chiefs won the SB with JuJu as WR1

Bateman, Flowers, Beckham and Likely (Andrews replacement) running around catching balls from Lamar who is probably going to win MVP. Then you have Aiyuk, Kittle, Samuel, and McCaffery catching passes from Purdy who is probably a Top 5 MVP vote-getter. 
 

We need another dynamic WR or 2 to make plays with Stef and Kincaid. Shakir is fine but we can be better.
 

I agree that the pass rush is important, but not as important as scoring points. You aren’t rushing the passer if you aren’t scoring points because they’re running the ball and the clock. If we are winning games by lots of points we’ll have the 10+ sack guy because there will more and more opportunities to sack the QB. As far as OL is concerned, I would be drafting these players in rounds 3-7. There are plenty of examples of lineman excelling from those rounds in the NFL. There are for WRs, too, like Diggs, but I think they’re fewer and farther between. Give me consensus top-tier playmaker prospects and let the OL coach mold the OL. 

[Chandler#81]

3 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

I want the best  WR result possible ….  But Last year their biggest FA signing was McGovern at like $7.5m a year …and their cap is just as tight his year …

 

I don’t see them acquiring a big name WR via trade or FA

Ya never know. We rarely trade Draft picks except when added and replaced in a trade. Without question, it’s a real need that requires off season addressing.  I’m just not in favor of another Zay Jones..

[NewEra]

14 minutes ago, The Cincinnati Kid said:

Bateman, Flowers, Beckham and Likely (Andrews replacement) running around catching balls from Lamar who is probably going to win MVP. Then you have Aiyuk, Kittle, Samuel, and McCaffery catching passes from Purdy who is probably a Top 5 MVP vote-getter. 
 

We need another dynamic WR or 2 to make plays with Stef and Kincaid. Shakir is fine but we can be better.
 

I agree that the pass rush is important, but not as important as scoring points. You aren’t rushing the passer if you aren’t scoring points because they’re running the ball and the clock. If we are winning games by lots of points we’ll have the 10+ sack guy because there will more and more opportunities to sack the QB. As far as OL is concerned, I would be drafting these players in rounds 3-7. There are plenty of examples of lineman excelling from those rounds in the NFL. There are for WRs, too, like Diggs, but I think they’re fewer and farther between. Give me consensus top-tier playmaker prospects and let the OL coach mold the OL. 

Leading the league in defense.  Leading the league in sacks.  Leading the league in turnovers.  Leading the league in rushing.  21st in passing yardage.

 

of course passing is important- it’s just not the only thing that matters.  You can win in the nfl several different ways nowadays…..but I’ll tell you one thing.  If you can’t pressure the QB, you won’t win. 

[The Jokeman]

4 hours ago, GustheDog33 said:

Important to note that they took Jameson Williams at 14th overall in that draft.  Hutchinson may have been the best prospect in that draft while London, Olave, Garrett Wilson, Jahan Dotson, Treylon Burkes and Willams were all taken between picks 8 and 18.

 

I would argue the Lions took the best player available (literally) knowing they were going to get one of these top 6 WRs at 14.

 

I also think London is probably thriving if he gets drafted to Detroit because the QB play in ATL has been putrid at best.  Goff isn't elite, but he is good and London would be a factor for the Lions.

 

Edge is an important position, no doubt, but in today's NFL the passing game is the emphasis. 

 

All in all, we can play the game all day long.  I prefer we play to win by blowing the game open and scoring a lot of points.  You prefer to have an edge rusher in the game while the opponent in nursing a 3 point lead hoping they decide to throw a pass.  You can win either way, one just seems easier. 🤷‍♂️

 

What did Wiliams do this season? We agree to disagree.

[noacls]

21 hours ago, whorlnut said:

I’m honestly not sure how anyone on this board can argue for defense anymore. 

Because there are 2 DE and 1 DT under contract for next year. Plus the chance that Hyde, Poyer, and Tre are probably gone next year. 

[Alphadawg7]

On 1/2/2024 at 3:18 PM, whorlnut said:

I’m really hoping Beane takes a WR in the first round this year and would then like to see another taken in round 2 if they are rated high on our board. We did this with Rousseau and Basham when we needed someone to get after Mahomes. Why can’t we do it again for our franchise qb?  
 

Go hard at the position and give yourself the best shot possible at finding another top receiver. These guys could end up being WR1 and WR2 after Diggs leaves. I love the idea of rookie contracts, with one having the fifth year option. This is a passing league and if we hit on one, that gives Allen Kincaid and the new guy for at least 4 years on rookie deals. If we hit on both, then all the better. 

 

Many of the best WR's in the NFL came outside of round 1...and even many outside round 2.  They do not need to double dip in back to back picks to take 2 guys to fill one spot.  Nacua was a 5th round pick no one had heard of until his week 1 game for example.  

 

We are losing like half our defense though, so no way they take 2 WR's back to back in first and 2nd round.

 

6 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Pass Catchers Under Contract in 2024:

1. Diggs

2.

3. Kincaid

4. Shakir

5. Cook

6. Knox

 

DEs Under Contract in 2024:

1.

2. Rousseau

3.

4. Von Miller

5.

6. Jonathan

 

DTs Under Contract in 2024:

1. Ed Oliver

2.

3.

4.

 

Safeties Returning in 2024:

1.

2.

3.

4. Cam Lewis

5. Hamlin

 

Classic TBD where anyone who asks "dO yOu EvEn WaTcH tHe GaMeS?" shows they have no point. Yeah, I've watched us win numerous games where Gabe Davis had 0 catches for 0 yards.

 

We have no starting DE, we have no rotation. We have no starting 1-Techs, we have no DT rotation. Both Safeties will/should be gone.

 

 

 

 

This.

Edited January 4 by Alphadawg7

[DCOrange]

6 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

I love this highlight reel because it shows you everything.  Natural hands catcher, fluid and runs the full route tree.  

 

6'3" 190lbs 4.3 speed

 

Reminds me of Chad Johnson.  Hopefully he's there at #32 😉

Bo Nix is my first QB to scout this year. At least based on the couple games from last year that I’ve watched thus far, they have a weird offense. Doesn’t really let plays develop long enough to see what all the WRs and Nix can do, but Franklin has definitely stood out. He’s had a few really nice catches where he reaches back and just snatches it easily. 

[Aussie Joe]

2 hours ago, noacls said:

Because there are 2 DE and 1 DT under contract for next year. Plus the chance that Hyde, Poyer, and Tre are probably gone next year. 

Hope you found the  vomit emoticon a reasonable response for politely answering the dudes question 😆

 

[MiracleAtRich1393]

6 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

I love this highlight reel because it shows you everything.  Natural hands catcher, fluid and runs the full route tree.  

 

6'3" 190lbs 4.3 speed

 

Reminds me of Chad Johnson.  Hopefully he's there at #32 😉

If we're organically picking at #32 they could take the next coming of Cody Ford or Boogie Basham in round one for the next decade straight IDGAF

[Milanos Milano]

Jerry Rice’s son is in the draft this year. Brenden Rice. Him and Polk would be good sneaky picks later in the draft. 

[Dr.Sack]

$25 mo to run Mock Draft Sims on PFF seems like $ & time well spent. 

[Capco]

In my current Madden franchise, I drafted 2 WRs with picks 5 (Travis Green) and 11 (Reuben Parkman) in the second round.  

Green:      6'2", 214lbs, 89 SPD, 91 ACC, 89 AGI, 89 JMP, 58 STR, 67 BTK

Parkman:  6'1, 205lbs, 96 SPD, 78 ACC, 92 AGI, 87 JMP, 57 STR, 55 BTK

Green started his rookie year and has held the WR2 position since being drafted.  Parkman took longer to develop, but after three years of training camp drills I was able to get his ACC to 96 and his JMP to 90.  He's set to take the WR1 position next year.

Both were abysmal blockers coming out of college but have really progressed in that area.  Green is probably the more complete receiver and uses his size extremely well on deep balls in particular, but Parkman is incredibly smooth in his routes and electric after the catch. 

Both have been re-signed to 4-year extensions.  I'll probably look to trade Green once he's on the wrong side of 30, but Parkman will likely retire a Bill.  

tl;dr:  drafting WRs back-to-back might seem excessive, but it can really pan out in the right organization.  

[Warriorspikes51]

I want WR in Round 1 AND Round 2

[BBFL]

6 hours ago, Capco said:

In my current Madden franchise, I drafted 2 WRs with picks 5 (Travis Green) and 11 (Reuben Parkman) in the second round.  

Green:      6'2", 214lbs, 89 SPD, 91 ACC, 89 AGI, 89 JMP, 58 STR, 67 BTK

Parkman:  6'1, 205lbs, 96 SPD, 78 ACC, 92 AGI, 87 JMP, 57 STR, 55 BTK

Green started his rookie year and has held the WR2 position since being drafted.  Parkman took longer to develop, but after three years of training camp drills I was able to get his ACC to 96 and his JMP to 90.  He's set to take the WR1 position next year.

Both were abysmal blockers coming out of college but have really progressed in that area.  Green is probably the more complete receiver and uses his size extremely well on deep balls in particular, but Parkman is incredibly smooth in his routes and electric after the catch. 

Both have been re-signed to 4-year extensions.  I'll probably look to trade Green once he's on the wrong side of 30, but Parkman will likely retire a Bill.  

tl;dr:  drafting WRs back-to-back might seem excessive, but it can really pan out in the right organization.  

Back back to Madden 18… Most of multiple year simulations where the Bills weren’t the controlled team Josh never developed into a mid-level QB let alone close to what he is now. 
 

Hopefully they don’t use that video game for their future drafting acumen. 

[The Jokeman]

8 hours ago, Araiza Curse said:

Jerry Rice’s son is in the draft this year. Brenden Rice. Him and Polk would be good sneaky picks later in the draft. 

His son is quick but not sure he's starting caliber. If you want to talk about former player's kids Kris Jenkins' son is an interesting name that could be available as soon as Round 2. 

[Capco]

8 hours ago, BBFL said:

Back back to Madden 18… Most of multiple year simulations where the Bills weren’t the controlled team Josh never developed into a mid-level QB let alone close to what he is now. 
 

Hopefully they don’t use that video game for their future drafting acumen. 

I still use Madden 2005 on the original Xbox because I love the franchise mode and how they did player progression.

This is my 3rd 30-year franchise and at this point I don't even care about the wins.  It's all about developing players and creating an excellent roster year after year.

[Warriorspikes51]

This team could literally be one of the most exciting ever if the Bills find a way to add 2 legit starting rookie WR’s to the offense through the draft.

 

This class is loaded and handfulls of rookie WR’s are making immediate impacts in the NFL these days.

 

I like to imagine an offense in 2024:

 

Diggs

Round 1 WR - Dynamic threat

Shakir

Round 2 WR - Reliable Hands

Edited January 5 by Warriorspikes51

[Solomon Grundy]

10 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

This team could literally be one of the most exciting ever if the Bills find a way to add 2 legit starting rookie WR’s to the offense through the draft.

 

This class is loaded and handfulls of rookie WR’s are making immediate impacts in the NFL these days.

 

I like to imagine an offense in 2024:

 

Diggs

Round 1 WR - Dynamic threat

Shakir

Round 2 WR - Reliable Hands

Sounds like you're describing Xavier Legette and Adonai Mitchell. I could be wrong though 😎

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

This team could literally be one of the most exciting ever if the Bills find a way to add 2 legit starting rookie WR’s to the offense through the draft.

 

This class is loaded and handfulls of rookie WR’s are making immediate impacts in the NFL these days.

 

I like to imagine an offense in 2024:

 

Diggs

Round 1 WR - Dynamic threat

Shakir

Round 2 WR - Reliable Hands

Rd 2 Ladd McConkey -- he's going to be a good one.

[Dan in Owego]

The heck with double dipping this is a  triple dip class, holy cow something for everyone. just got done watching Malachi Corley absurd Deebo type.

 

What a class!!!

3 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

Rd 2 Ladd McConkey -- he's going to be a good one.

Yes he is, gonna be projected for slot, but he can play very well outside. Great routes, hands and speed.

[Dr. Who]

37 minutes ago, Dan in Owego said:

The heck with double dipping this is a  triple dip class, holy cow something for everyone. just got done watching Malachi Corley absurd Deebo type.

 

What a class!!!

Yes he is, gonna be projected for slot, but he can play very well outside. Great routes, hands and speed.

It would be absolutely criminal not to provide Josh Allen with real quality at the wr position from this draft. Too much talent at a premium position not to take advantage by grabbing more than one, and utterly foolish to cheap out by always trying to fill it with mid-round picks or marginal free agents.

[Dan in Owego]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

It would be absolutely criminal not to provide Josh Allen with real quality at the wr position from this draft. Too much talent at a premium position not to take advantage by grabbing more than one, and utterly foolish to cheap out by always trying to fill it with mid-round picks or marginal free agents.

Absolutely agree, and bejeezus there are so many types to pick from! grab as many as we can and don't look back.

[major]

I want Worthy from Texas🤘

[Dan in Owego]

18 minutes ago, major said:

I want Worthy from Texas🤘

Intersted to see how draft process plays out Brian Thomas jr. is a beast, would probably take hime over the two Longhorns.

 

But will be a lot of moving and shaking before April.

[MiracleAtRich1393]

11 hours ago, Dan in Owego said:

Intersted to see how draft process plays out Brian Thomas jr. is a beast, would probably take hime over the two Longhorns.

 

But will be a lot of moving and shaking before April.

[Just in Atlanta]

Rookie WRs take two years to develop generally.

 

Id prefer a veteran.

[Putin]

On 1/2/2024 at 5:39 PM, whorlnut said:

WR - round 1

WR - round 2

S - round 5

S - round 6

 

mcd is a db whisperer that turns safeties and corners into stars. Just need to find the ones with the right traits. 

As long as we draft a LB in the 3rd I’m good with it 

[Special K]

If the Bills did double dip at WR, I would take a hard look at the Xavier’s:

 

Xavier Leggette WR South Carolina...in the mold of DK Metcalf

 

Xavier Worthy WR Texas....slight of frame, but has top-shelf speed...something lacking in the Bills WR room