Shakir, Harty, Shurfield

[Matt_In_NH]

Looking at snap counts.   Sherfield 150, Shakir 118, Harty 102.....the mix seems odd to me given expectations.   Shakir has out snapped the other two for 3 straight weeks, is that because the staff likes what they see in him or they don't like what they see in the others?   Like most of you, I expected Harty to have more of an impact and I think that s the big surprise here.  We should see a different mix with Knox and Morris out, more 11 is coming.   I would like to see Harty get a few of Gabe's snaps maybe.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Looking at snap counts.   Sherfield 150, Shakir 118, Harty 102.....the mix seems odd to me given expectations.   Shakir has out snapped the other two for 3 straight weeks, is that because the staff likes what they see in him or they don't like what they see in the others?   Like most of you, I expected Harty to have more of an impact and I think that s the big surprise here.  We should see a different mix with Knox and Morris out, more 11 is coming.   I would like to see Harty get a few of Gabe's snaps maybe.

 

Harty they really only seem to want to use in the gimmick role. He runs the bubble screen, swing pass, and the odd outside hitch but that seems to be all. I am sure they have sent him deep once or twice but I don't recall them offhand and I don't think he has been targeted deep. 

 

Sherfield is their next man up outside. And he blocks. so that is probably why his count is higher. Shakir slowly but surely has earnt himself more time after a disappointing summer. I think he stands to be the biggest beneficiary of a move to more 11 personnel. 

[SydneyBillsFan]

Harty is on, what, 4m per year? Averaging around 15 snaps a game. Not good enough.

 

Sherfield was getting rave reviews in training camp. What happened?

 

Shakir appears to be on an upward trajectory and, from a cap POV, runs on the smell of an oily rag. He can hold his head up high.

[Donuts and Doritos]

As much as I'd like to see these guys start getting some of Gabe's snaps, TB has bigger physical CBs per Joe Marino, which might favor Gabe's size this week. 

[CSBill]

All three are on the back of the milk carton I used this morning for breakfast.

[Matt_In_NH]

For reference Gabe has 393 and Diggs 386.   I am not a Gabe hater but I think I would be ok if his number was 100 less and those were given to the others at least to see how that goes.

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Harty they really only seem to want to use in the gimmick role. He runs the bubble screen, swing pass, and the odd outside hitch but that seems to be all. I am sure they have sent him deep once or twice but I don't recall them offhand and I don't think he has been targeted deep. 

 

Sherfield is their next man up outside. And he blocks. so that is probably why his count is higher. Shakir slowly but surely has earnt himself more time after a disappointing summer. I think he stands to be the biggest beneficiary of a move to more 11 personnel. 

We see him less than we saw McKenzie but pay him 3X, it seems odd.

[BuffaloBillyG]

5 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

For reference Gabe has 393 and Diggs 386.   I am not a Gabe hater but I think I would be ok if his number was 100 less and those were given to the others at least to see how that goes.

We see him less than we saw McKenzie but pay him 3X, it seems odd.

Here's the disconnect on that between fan and coach. You want snaps given to other players. However, coaching would do that if other guys earned  them. That's a big difference.

 

Can you honestly say Sherfield or Harty have earned anything? Shakir seemingly has in the coaches eyes as his snap count has been on a steady uptick. 

 

Another issue for Harty and Sherfield seems to be their usage on certain looks. I don't have the numbers on hand but when Harty plays it's a high percentage of the time it's a pass play. Sherfield has a higher percentage of runs. It tips the offense's hand a bit. Shakir is showing to be a capable blocker as well as pass catcher so he adds versatility. 

 

That's why Gabe seen the highest snap count. He is a balanced WR that can be in for pass and run plays. 

[Drew21PA]

I just feel of these wr group was with KC, Philly or the rams - they would be unstoppable

 

is it Josh ir is it Dorsey?

 

really feel with the weapons we have we should easily put up points and not have to worry about the defense 

 

let’s be honest yes New England scored 29

 

i get it

 

bht I’d we executed on offense they would have been more desperate on their play calls and mac Jones would have made massive mistakes as usual 

 

BUT the more I look at it they got a Rythem because of the offense 

[Matt_In_NH]

17 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Here's the disconnect on that between fan and coach. You want snaps given to other players. However, coaching would do that if other guys earned  them. That's a big difference.

 

Can you honestly say Sherfield or Harty have earned anything? Shakir seemingly has in the coaches eyes as his snap count has been on a steady uptick. 

 

Another issue for Harty and Sherfield seems to be their usage on certain looks. I don't have the numbers on hand but when Harty plays it's a high percentage of the time it's a pass play. Sherfield has a higher percentage of runs. It tips the offense's hand a bit. Shakir is showing to be a capable blocker as well as pass catcher so he adds versatility. 

 

That's why Gabe seen the highest snap count. He is a balanced WR that can be in for pass and run plays. 

 

You can search my posts, you will not find a lot second guessing the coaching, I dont want everyone fired all the time nor want every player that had a good fantasy year signed etc.   I will also say the point of this is discussion amongst fans, if you are not interested in questioning discussing what happens with the team and what might some other options be so be that is an option.    I take exception to the bolded, do any of us have access to what the staff does on all the players and know who has "earned" playing time and whatnot, no.  However, when it comes to catching the ball, we have a lot of evidence over several years that shows Gabe catches a very small percentage of his targets as compared to everyone else on the team.  That is partly due to longer routes run and partly due to dropping the football and partly due to lack of separation.   So I would turn that around and ask you has Gabe earned the right to play nearly 100% of the snaps based on what you have seen?  The staff loves his work ethic, they love his blocking (that matters) but like Joe Marino said "Gabe has shown us what he is over the last 3 plus years and for a receiver, he has limitations".  

[Matt_In_NH]

39 minutes ago, Drew21PA said:

I just feel of these wr group was with KC, Philly or the rams - they would be unstoppable

 

is it Josh ir is it Dorsey?

 

really feel with the weapons we have we should easily put up points and not have to worry about the defense 

 

let’s be honest yes New England scored 29

 

i get it

 

bht I’d we executed on offense they would have been more desperate on their play calls and mac Jones would have made massive mistakes as usual 

 

BUT the more I look at it they got a Rythem because of the offense 

 

The bills have scored 198 points, Chiefs 178 and Eagles 186.  They have all struggled at times, the Bills for three straight weeks and their total is misleading this year but point is they all struggle at times.   The Eagles have a better second WR than the Bills.  I dont agree with those other teams, they would be unstoppable.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Matt_In_NH

[BuffaloBillyG]

12 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

 

You can search my posts, you will not find a lot second guessing the coaching, I dont want everyone fired all the time nor want every player that had a good fantasy year signed etc.   I will also say the point of this is discussion amongst fans, if you are not interested in questioning discussing what happens with the team and what might some other options be so be that is an option.    I take exception to the bolded, do any of us have access to what the staff does on all the players and know who has "earned" playing time and whatnot, no.  However, when it comes to catching the ball, we have a lot of evidence over several years that shows Gabe catches a very small percentage of his targets as compared to everyone else on the team.  That is partly due to longer routes run and partly due to dropping the football and partly due to lack of separation.   So I would turn that around and ask you has Gabe earned the right to play nearly 100% of the snaps based on what you have seen?  The staff loves his work ethic, they love his blocking (that matters) but like Joe Marino said "Gabe has shown us what he is over the last 3 plus years and for a receiver, he has limitations".  

The italicized portion of this is gibberish. If you aren't into having others opposed to your personal train of thought and second guess what you're thinking or offer a different point of view an internet message board may not be for you. 

 

As far as the part I've bolded I will do what you didn't and offer a direct response. Yes, Gabe Davis has earned the position he is in. The proof of that comes from not only his ability to be an all around WR on Sunday, but the work and leadership he's put in Monday through Saturday that you and I don't get to see. You see 1/7ths of a work week and draw conclusions.  Could he be upgraded on as a WR? Of course. He does have flaws and his ability to be consistent has always been an issue. He's not untouchable by any means...but different doesn't mean better.

 

What you still haven't answered is what Sherfield and Harty have done to push those snaps away from Davis. That was the original point. 

[BananaB]

55 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Here's the disconnect on that between fan and coach. You want snaps given to other players. However, coaching would do that if other guys earned  them. That's a big difference.

 

Can you honestly say Sherfield or Harty have earned anything? Shakir seemingly has in the coaches eyes as his snap count has been on a steady uptick. 

 

Another issue for Harty and Sherfield seems to be their usage on certain looks. I don't have the numbers on hand but when Harty plays it's a high percentage of the time it's a pass play. Sherfield has a higher percentage of runs. It tips the offense's hand a bit. Shakir is showing to be a capable blocker as well as pass catcher so he adds versatility. 

 

That's why Gabe seen the highest snap count. He is a balanced WR that can be in for pass and run plays. 

I can honestly say a decrease in Gabes snaps has  been earned. Hard to say about the other guys because lack of opportunities, but Gabes snaps do not match his play. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, Matt_In_NH said:

For reference Gabe has 393 and Diggs 386.   I am not a Gabe hater but I think I would be ok if his number was 100 less and those were given to the others at least to see how that goes.

We see him less than we saw McKenzie but pay him 3X, it seems odd.

he made two nfl players look silly with that juke Sunday. I’d like to see him more involved 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

he made two nfl players look silly with that juke Sunday. I’d like to see him more involved 

Same agility he showed on the sidelines in the Dolphins game. 
 

Both catches he’s lined up in the slot at LT and runs a simple flat underneath.

 

I don’t know that it would take a lot of effort to design a couple of plays for him a game. 
 

We’re 40% done with the season now, so not sure how he gets a steady diet of 2-3 catches per game on 19 snaps. 
 

I keep saying it, but we saw this last year with Hines. 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Straight Hucklebuck

[BuffaloBillyG]

13 minutes ago, BananaB said:

I can honestly say a decrease in Gabes snaps has  been earned. Hard to say about the other guys because lack of opportunities, but Gabes snaps do not match his play. 

He's increased his catch percentage so far this year (51% last year to 68% this year) and  scored TDs in 4 straight games. Hard to say he's earned a demotion. 

 

If there was someone nipping at his heals and showing out, sure let's see what we have there. But there really isn't. Shakir would be the closest IMO, but he's seeing more snaps already. 

[Gunsgoodtime]

1 minute ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

He's increased his catch percentage so far this year (51% last year to 68% this year) and  scored TDs in 4 straight games. Hard to say he's earned a demotion. 

 

If there was someone nipping at his heals and showing out, sure let's see what we have there. But there really isn't. Shakir would be the closest IMO, but he's seeing more snaps already. 

That's the problem, all 3 of those guys are just bottom end starters.  Have to do better

[Freddie's Dead]

We replaced McKittrick with Sharty, a more expensive, less effective option.  Sherfield is even less effective, if that's possible. Then there's Shakir. To paraphrase the great David Bowie, ShShShShShiddy....

Edited October 25, 2023 by Freddie's Dead

[strive_for_five_guy]

1 minute ago, Gunsgoodtime said:

That's the problem, all 3 of those guys are just bottom end starters.  Have to do better

All together, don’t they form the WR tandem known as Sharty, though?

[DrDawkinstein]

All of them are more talented than what our Offensive scheme and play calling is showing. There are less talented guys showing out all over the NFL because their teams simply give them chances. You dont have to have 5 All Pros in your WR room to score points.

 

 

1 hour ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Here's the disconnect on that between fan and coach. You want snaps given to other players. However, coaching would do that if other guys earned  them. That's a big difference.

 

 

This would usually be a fair point, but I have serious questions about our coaches' systems and requirements for determining who has "earned" snaps.

 

Seems to be a recurring problem where talented players cant seem to find the field when held up to McD's "standards".

 

So either he thinks Beane isnt signing the right guys, or he is incapable of coaching the best out of players. (hint: I dont think it's on Beane)

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by DrDawkinstein

[BuffaloBillyG]

56 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 would usually be a fair point, but I have serious questions about our coaches' systems and requirements for determining who has "earned" snaps.

 

Seems to be a recurring problem where talented players cant seem to find the field when held up to McD's "standards".

 

So either he thinks Beane isn't signing the right guys, or he is incapable of coaching the best out of players. (hint: I dont think it's on Beane)

 

 

This raises a few questions in my mind and a few thoughts. 

 

1. Are our systems too complicated to begin with? Both on offense and defense. It seems like newer players have issues grasping the playbook here more than I've ever seen in my life.

 

2. Are new players held to the same standards that those that have been in the system are? Feels like not. 

 

Take Dorian Williams for example. Been benched for making mistakes. Elam benched for making mistakes. But flip that around and I've never seen Davis or Knox benched for drops.  Last year Cook fumbles non his first carry and spend most of the year in a limited role. 

 

3. Are Beane and McDermott really on the same page as much as they say? That I don't know. You say is it McDermott's view that Beane isn't getting the right guys...and to that I would say yes. Like him or not, I think we all know McDermott likes physical tough football. And I just don't think Beane has built a team to reflect that on all fronts. Beane seems to like the athletic guys that score big on the RAS. Is that Sean's wheelhouse? I don't think coaching modern fast paced football is a McDermott trait...but it's what Beane seems to build.  I just don't think they have the same vision anymore. 

[Don Otreply]

Our personnel use on offense is a head scratcher frequently, we use available pass catchers as blockers, more frequently than receivers, and all our opponents know who we are going to target on most every pass play. 

[ddaryl]

All these compalints about receivers RBs blocking OL schemes and Josh's struggles all have 1 common denominator

Edited October 25, 2023 by ddaryl

[mrags]

1 hour ago, Freddie's Dead said:

We replaced McKittrick with Sharty, a more expensive, less effective option.  Sherfield is even less effective, if that's possible. Then there's Shakir. To paraphrase the great David Bowie, ShShShShShiddy....

The bigger laugh is that people all around actually thought Harty and Sherfield were going to be some answer. They doing what they’ve always done. Almost absolutely nothing. 

[Solomon Grundy]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Harty they really only seem to want to use in the gimmick role. He runs the bubble screen, swing pass, and the odd outside hitch but that seems to be all. I am sure they have sent him deep once or twice but I don't recall them offhand and I don't think he has been targeted deep. 

 

Sherfield is their next man up outside. And he blocks. so that is probably why his count is higher. Shakir slowly but surely has earnt himself more time after a disappointing summer. I think he stands to be the biggest beneficiary of a move to more 11 personnel. 

Where are the jet sweeps with Harty? 

[Freddie's Dead]

21 minutes ago, mrags said:

The bigger laugh is that people all around actually thought Harty and Sherfield were going to be some answer. They doing what they’ve always done. Almost absolutely nothing. 

But we got rid of McKittrick, so at least the haterz are happy. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Shakir should be getting double the snaps of these other two. He doesn't have elite speed but he seems quick enough to get open in the short underneath zones. He should get numerous targets with Knox out and Kincaid forced to play traditional TE role.

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Harty they really only seem to want to use in the gimmick role. He runs the bubble screen, swing pass, and the odd outside hitch but that seems to be all. I am sure they have sent him deep once or twice but I don't recall them offhand and I don't think he has been targeted deep. 

 

Sherfield is their next man up outside. And he blocks. so that is probably why his count is higher. Shakir slowly but surely has earnt himself more time after a disappointing summer. I think he stands to be the biggest beneficiary of a move to more 11 personnel. 

 

 

Sharty gets 20 yards downfield and he vanishes from radar.   He's too small to be the deep threat some fans wanted.   There was a time from the 70's-90's when you saw an undersized receiver and you knew that guy was running a lot of 9 routes.   But I think Jermaine Lewis was the last 5'7" and under WR to actually be a legit deep threat and that was 20 years ago.   People think DeSean Jackson was small but he was 5'10".   Steve Smith was 5'9" but a great leaper with power and body control.   Influx of big CB's who can run have made the diminuitive deep threat all but extinct.

[Gunsgoodtime]

33 minutes ago, mrags said:

The bigger laugh is that people all around actually thought Harty and Sherfield were going to be some answer. They doing what they’ve always done. Almost absolutely nothing. 

This!  I can't believe the hype from our fan base when we signed Harty and Sherfield, who were both JAGs, just liked they rolled out last year.  I was extremely disappointed in the signings if they were actually our replacements, which they are

[Fleezoid]

[Name only Title] Am I right?

[Airseven]

Oh Beane 😔

[T master]

They brought these guys in to add to the weaponry for Josh & to this point after Sheffield having a really good camp & good preseason has really not been used on game day only sparingly i would like to see him get a few more targets maybe even use him in place of Gabe due to his inconsistency .

 

Harte should be used his speed is something that is another weapon & when he has been targeted he has shown that he can get some YAC yards just not sure if this is a chemistry thing with Josh or what but they need to figure these guys talents into the equation !! 

[Mango]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Harty they really only seem to want to use in the gimmick role. He runs the bubble screen, swing pass, and the odd outside hitch but that seems to be all. I am sure they have sent him deep once or twice but I don't recall them offhand and I don't think he has been targeted deep. 

 

Sherfield is their next man up outside. And he blocks. so that is probably why his count is higher. Shakir slowly but surely has earnt himself more time after a disappointing summer. I think he stands to be the biggest beneficiary of a move to more 11 personnel. 

I would like to see Shakir in the slot a lot more. He’s not the biggest or fastest, but he seems to have a knack for finding space. 
 

I’d also like Harty and Shakir to see more diversified action. When Harty is on the field it would be nice to use him outside of his gimmicky plays and make the defense respect the amount of space he can cover in a short time. I thought he flashed with his short area quickness last week. Also much tougher than I thought he’d be as a ball carrier. I’d like to get him some more touches in general.

[LABILLBACKER]

5 hours ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Looking at snap counts.   Sherfield 150, Shakir 118, Harty 102.....the mix seems odd to me given expectations.   Shakir has out snapped the other two for 3 straight weeks, is that because the staff likes what they see in him or they don't like what they see in the others?   Like most of you, I expected Harty to have more of an impact and I think that s the big surprise here.  We should see a different mix with Knox and Morris out, more 11 is coming.   I would like to see Harty get a few of Gabe's snaps maybe.

Just spread 100% of Gabe's snaps to everyone else.  In other words make him a healthy scratch like Elam.

[The Frankish Reich]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Harty they really only seem to want to use in the gimmick role. He runs the bubble screen, swing pass, and the odd outside hitch but that seems to be all. I am sure they have sent him deep once or twice but I don't recall them offhand and I don't think he has been targeted deep. 

He was wide open deep against NE, but Josh seemed to forget that he's 5'6" and not 6'4" ...

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

This raises a few questions in my mind and a few thoughts. 

 

1. Are our systems too complicated to begin with? Both on offense and defense. It seems like newer players have issues grasping the playbook here more than I've ever seen in my life.

 

2. Are new players held to the same standards that those that have been in the system are? Feels like not. 

 

Take Dorian Williams for example. Been benched for making mistakes. Elam benched for making mistakes. But flip that around and I've never seen Davis or Knox benched for drops.  Last year Cook fumbles non his first carry and spend most of the year in a limited role. 

 

3. Are Beane and McDermott really on the same page as much as they say? That I don't know. You say is it McDermott's view that Beane isn't getting the right guys...and to that I would say yes. Like him or not, I think we all know McDermott likes physical tough football. And I just don't think Beane has built a team to reflect that on all fronts. Beane seems to like the athletic guys that score big on the RAS. Is that Sean's wheelhouse? I don't think coaching modern fast paced football is a McDermott trait...but it's what Beane seems to build.  I just don't think they have the same vision anymore. 

Our systems are way too complicated compared to other teams. And because of this it takes way too long for new players to assimilate. And as far as drafting physical football players, McB are clearly not on the same page. We are a finesse team that requires a lead to succeed. This team has not been physical since JA arrived. 

[benderbender]

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

Our personnel use on offense is a head scratcher frequently, we use available pass catchers as blockers, more frequently than receivers, and all our opponents know who we are going to target on most every pass play. 

Pretty sure Knox hurt his wrist staying back to block on pass pro. Like wrecking your Lamborghini trying to move furniture. 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

Our personnel use on offense is a head scratcher frequently, we use available pass catchers as blockers, more frequently than receivers, and all our opponents know who we are going to target on most every pass play. 

I know this is a somewhat different point, but we're seeing that blocking by "skill positions" players is really important. Lots of folks here hate it, but that's something PFF takes into account when they score players - they look at every play and whether the player succeeded in what appears to be his assigned role. Cook whiffing on blocks, some receiver putting in a bad effort on a block on a screen, etc. If our pass catchers aren't blocking effectively on screens and the screen fails, that's on them, not Dorsey.

[Bangarang]

Not only is Harty a terrible punt returner but he’s also a non factor in the passing game. Not sure why BB felt the need to overpay for him. 

[The Frankish Reich]

Just now, Bangarang said:

Not only is Harty a terrible punt returner but he’s also a non factor in the passing game. Not sure why BB felt the need to overpay for him. 

Even weirder because we thought we'd have Hines at the time they signed him. Did Beane rent the Jetski?

[LABILLBACKER]

1 minute ago, Bangarang said:

Not only is Harty a terrible punt returner but he’s also a non factor in the passing game. Not sure why BB felt the need to overpay for him. 

Agree, very bad signing and waste of money. Thanks drunk jetskier....