Diggs interview eludes to issue...

[Xwnyer]

I would first like to see us get to LOS z with more than 8 seconds on play clock.  Gives little time to read and call a different play.  Josh needs to be faster in his progression peak at primary and quickly at secondary take the secondary if available if not look back at primary.   He seems to be locking on and the pressure he is getting prevents his slow progression reads.

[BuffaloBillyG]

10 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

That's a little alarming.  Brady would take over.  His track record in the two years that he was the OC in Carolina is low-end.  

 

 

I'm not anxious to see what a Joe Brady called offense would look like. I'm terrified of what a Mike Shula called offense would look like. Neither are inspiring.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

8 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Yeah.

 

As I've said...........this offseason Beane addressed some specific areas where they were inefficient offensively in 2022 with role players designed to fix those situational weaknesses.........for example, Harris and Murray are both incredibly efficient at scoring from inside the 3 and the Bills struggled running near the goal line so the Bills wanted those specific players.

 

And they also drafted a TE in round 1 and have gone from very rarely using 12 personnel in 2022 to using it frequently.  

 

What this means?   They are substituting a lot.

 

Which allows the defense time to substitute and matchup to the Bills personnel and execute the game plan they drew up..........and then it also takes plays much deeper into the play clock and makes them a much more deliberate, time consuming offense.

 

It has had the seemingly unforeseen effect of leading to the Bills having longer drives but less of them.   Therefore less scoring chances.........which benefits lesser opponents like the Giants and Patriots.

 

The simplest solution for the Bills was to build an offense that had 11 players they could keep on the field for 8-10 straight plays if need be.........play uptempo and limit defensive substitutions and keep opponents on their heels.   

 

 

Great Post! I've not heard this anywhere else and it makes so much sense.

[Thurman#1]

12 hours ago, Hebert19 said:

He went on about hurry up and what that does.  But it's the detail he goes into that's telling.  

 

He said hurry up allows josh to see what's there and adjust.  Recognize and change.   Eluding to we are operating too slow.  Or play is getting in too slow.  

 

We have been working down to single digits way more than in Josh's career on play clock.   

 

This gives the defense time to adjust to personnel but not us to adjust at the line.  May explain josh missing easy reads.  

 

Could dorsey be in his ear until 15 seconds like mcvay?   

 

Listen to interview.  This is what it sounds like diggs was getting at.  He needs more time at the line and less in huddle. 

 

 

Politeness requires a link.

 

Diggs has done a million interviews over the years, and google doesn't know them apart. Nor do we if we haven't heard the interview.

 

And many times over the years people have said, "Player X said Y," and when you read the interview, he didn't say Y at all, he said A or B or C. Many many many times. If we get the link we can see what he said and his own words.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Thurman#1

[BCAS Baritone]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Yeah.

 

As I've said...........this offseason Beane addressed some specific areas where they were inefficient offensively in 2022 with role players designed to fix those situational weaknesses.........for example, Harris and Murray are both incredibly efficient at scoring from inside the 3 and the Bills struggled running near the goal line so the Bills wanted those specific players.

 

And they also drafted a TE in round 1 and have gone from very rarely using 12 personnel in 2022 to using it frequently.  

 

What this means?   They are substituting a lot.

 

Which allows the defense time to substitute and matchup to the Bills personnel and execute the game plan they drew up..........and then it also takes plays much deeper into the play clock and makes them a much more deliberate, time consuming offense.

 

It has had the seemingly unforeseen effect of leading to the Bills having longer drives but less of them.   Therefore less scoring chances.........which benefits lesser opponents like the Giants and Patriots.

 

The simplest solution for the Bills was to build an offense that had 11 players they could keep on the field for 8-10 straight plays if need be.........play uptempo and limit defensive substitutions and keep opponents on their heels.   

 

 

You can still do that even with multiple personnel packages - just do it per drive.  I.e. start a drive in 11 and stay there the whole drive, then start a drive in 12 and stay there the whole drive.  Have a Latavius Murray drive and a James Cook drive.  Substitute as little as possible within a drive.  Especially in the first half.  Second half might want to mix and match more since the opposing D worked out their adjustments to what we did in the first half, so in the second half don't do the same thing.

 

[BuffaninSarasota]

12 hours ago, Chaos said:

What is the meme trying to allude too? 

It’s an optical allusion 

[Bookie Man]

Yes we need to mix in hurry up. Doesn't have to be all the time. But it needs to be put in. Been saying this since start of season.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

12 hours ago, Hebert19 said:

He went on about hurry up and what that does.  But it's the detail he goes into that's telling.  

 

He said hurry up allows josh to see what's there and adjust.  Recognize and change.   Eluding to we are operating too slow.  Or play is getting in too slow.  

 

We have been working down to single digits way more than in Josh's career on play clock.   

 

This gives the defense time to adjust to personnel but not us to adjust at the line.  May explain josh missing easy reads.  

 

Could dorsey be in his ear until 15 seconds like mcvay?   

 

Listen to interview.  This is what it sounds like diggs was getting at.  He needs more time at the line and less in huddle. 

 

Also doesn't leave time to set protections, motion players around, deal with crowd noise, etc. 

12 hours ago, Hebert19 said:

He went on about hurry up and what that does.  But it's the detail he goes into that's telling.  

 

He said hurry up allows josh to see what's there and adjust.  Recognize and change.   Eluding to we are operating too slow.  Or play is getting in too slow.  

 

We have been working down to single digits way more than in Josh's career on play clock.   

 

This gives the defense time to adjust to personnel but not us to adjust at the line.  May explain josh missing easy reads.  

 

Could dorsey be in his ear until 15 seconds like mcvay?   

 

Listen to interview.  This is what it sounds like diggs was getting at.  He needs more time at the line and less in huddle. 

 

Also doesn't leave time to set protections, motion players around, deal with crowd noise, etc. 

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, Simon said:

 

They can still do this with just about any set they want, and I agree they probably should be.

 

 

 

 

Yeah they can but I think they are liking their individual play success.    Their EPA per play is very high........the situational plays are working in part because of the players they've brought in........when players aren't making mistakes, that is.   But even when things like James Cooks converting 4 straight second down runs into 1st downs works as planned it's really shortening games which is counterproductive for them as the more explosive offense.

[BillsShredder83]

12 hours ago, BillsfaninCT said:

JA17 quoting my therapist, I'm sure many others who carry burdens, are extremely successful at something even if it's not being a bagillionaire qb but also super low of low, have heard this as well.  this could take a minute for him to figure out, I had therapy for 3 months after breaking and it's not freaking easy.  I'm no JA17 and a peon in comparison but in the little world i exist in it looks very similar and he's acting the same way...

 

he will be better for it overall and i'm glad regardless if it matters that i care at all, that he got some help and i hope everyone here is glad he is getting help but i'm not sure it's understandable unless you know somebody personally or been through it.

 

he has to figure this out for himself, it's good to have great people around you but ultimately it's his head, and only he can overcome it.

been through what?  i feel like i missed something

[BADOLBILZ]

32 minutes ago, BCAS Baritone said:

You can still do that even with multiple personnel packages - just do it per drive.  I.e. start a drive in 11 and stay there the whole drive, then start a drive in 12 and stay there the whole drive.  Have a Latavius Murray drive and a James Cook drive.  Substitute as little as possible within a drive.  Especially in the first half.  Second half might want to mix and match more since the opposing D worked out their adjustments to what we did in the first half, so in the second half don't do the same thing.

 

 

 

Sounds good in theory but they are basically Diggs and The Pipps in the passing game so if the defense can just roll the extra attention to Diggs they will take their chances with nickel personnel stuck on the field and wait for a mistake.    Kincaid was the hope.........but he isn't going to change that getting just 8 yards per reception.    They need a threat opposite Diggs that gets open fast and catches the ball for first down+ yardage.   That's literally why they had to move on from Beasley if nothing else.......his ypc fell sub 10 and started looking more like a RB's production in the pass game.   

[Chandler#81]

eludes? Eludes?? ELUDES???

🤦‍♂️

[Thurman#1]

26 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Sounds good in theory but they are basically Diggs and The Pipps in the passing game so if the defense can just roll the extra attention to Diggs they will take their chances with nickel personnel stuck on the field and wait for a mistake.    Kincaid was the hope.........but he isn't going to change that getting just 8 yards per reception.    They need a threat opposite Diggs that gets open fast and catches the ball for first down+ yardage.   That's literally why they had to move on from Beasley if nothing else.......his ypc fell sub 10 and started looking more like a RB's production in the pass game.   

 

 

 

His name is Kincaid.

 

And yes he is going to change that getting just 8 yards per reception. Most third downs are for less than 8, and those that aren't aren't can be made by slightly longer catches. This might seem amazing, but just about half his catches are for more than his average.

 

Mind blown, right?

 

And no, that's not why they had to move on from Beasley. Beasley stopped being able to beat man-to-man. 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

His name is Kincaid.

 

And yes he is going to change that getting just 8 yards per reception. Most third downs are for less than 8, and those that aren't aren't can be made by slightly longer catches. This might seem amazing, but just about half his catches are for more than his average.

 

Mind blown, right?

 

And no, that's not why they had to move on from Beasley. Beasley stopped being able to beat man-to-man. 

 

 

 

Nobody gets 7.7 yards on an individual catch the way the NFL computes it..........so yeah, no sh!t that his average consists of greater and lesser amounts than that. 🙄

 

7.7 yards per reception would be bad for a RB,   let alone someone who actually starts almost every route at the LOS like a WR or TE.

 

So like I said, that's not getting teams off of Diggs and it's not going to be a lot of "1 play first down pass" sequences that alleviate the issue of needing long drives to score.

 

And yes.........the reason Beasley stopped being productive was because he stopped getting those 2-3 extra yards per reception that he got at his peak in 2020.    He was still getting open and catching the ball even last year.   But he stopped the getting yards after the catch in 2021.   YAC yards have been a focus of the team thereafter.

[Utah John]

14 hours ago, VaMilBill said:

Hopefully this pats game was our 2021 bucs game. Perhaps and awakening? I hope so. 
 

I know not all seasons run linear 

I haven't gone back to check, but I don't remember that we'd lost half our defense to injuries when we played that game. Nor did that game follow two stinkers including another game we should never have lost.    But yes I hope we turn it around and at least get into the playoffs this year.  

[Bangarang]

So basically the issue is Dorsey? Got it. 

[PBF81]

31 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

And yes.........the reason Beasley stopped being productive was because he stopped getting those 2-3 extra yards per reception that he got at his peak in 2020.    He was still getting open and catching the ball even last year.   But he stopped the getting yards after the catch in 2021.   YAC yards have been a focus of the team thereafter.

 

Good catch!  

 

NPI     

 

 

[Thurman#1]

40 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Nobody gets 7.7 yards on an individual catch the way the NFL computes it..........so yeah, no sh!t that his average consists of greater and lesser amounts than that. 🙄

 

7.7 yards per reception would be bad for a RB,   let alone someone who actually starts almost every route at the LOS like a WR or TE.

 

So like I said, that's not getting teams off of Diggs and it's not going to be a lot of "1 play first down pass" sequences that alleviate the issue of needing long drives to score.

 

And yes.........the reason Beasley stopped being productive was because he stopped getting those 2-3 extra yards per reception that he got at his peak in 2020.    He was still getting open and catching the ball even last year.   But he stopped the getting yards after the catch in 2021.   YAC yards have been a focus of the team thereafter.

 

 

Um, yeah, the fact that you didn't seem to understand that an average is just an average is what I was pointing out. Sorry I didn't put it in a way you would understand.

 

Oh, and you're right that nobody gets 7.7 per catch in the stats. Completely irrelevant, but definitely correct.

 

But no, a lack of YAC is absolutely NOT the reason Beasley stopped being so productive. The idea's dumb, because it's basically untrue. Just check Pro Football Reference. His YAC/Reception was 4.9 in his 2019, 4.3 in 2020 and 3.7 in 2021. That means about a yard per reception difference between his best years here and the year he dropped off so much.

 

The problem was YBC/R (Yards Before Catch Per Reception). That was 6.7 in 2019, 7.5 in 2020 and 4.7 in 2021. 

 

That was where the dropoff was for Beasley. To get him open Josh had to throw sooner and mostly on zone downs, and he became much easier for defenses to predict and defense.

 

Kincaid has had seven games as a pro. He has gotten open against man and zone. He shows every sign of being an excellent possession receiver. In his last two games he averaged 9.5 and 9.4 YPC (and a catch rate of 100%). He's improving weekly. He's getting open. There's no reason to think he won't be that guy.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Thurman#1

[FireChans]

14 hours ago, dma0034 said:

I'm at a point where I believe the Bills live and die by Allen so they might as well let him start calling plays. I think the Bills only hope to salvage the season is to go up tempo and just try and outscore every team.

I have known that we need to outscore teams to win this whole team. 

[Mango]

I’ve been big in Diggs emotions and twitter but this one feels like a total nothing burger. 
 

I think he’s just wanting to move past this game. 

[BADOLBILZ]

30 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

So basically the issue is Dorsey? Got it. 

 

 

The issue with Dorsey is he needs to adapt to his QB being unprepared for what he was hoping for him to do this season.

 

Dorsey is calling the offense more like he has savvy veteran at QB and Allen just isn't at that level in the mental aspect of the game, unfortunately.

 

Running Josh more is a bad idea so I can't get behind that notion but the concept is right.........he would be better off just playing more to his style.......and uptempo and getting more time to read defenses and more chances to score seems to be the best way to utilize his talent.    

 

THAT is where Dorsey needs to get to.   Would be a lot easier if they had that WR2 but that ship might have sailed on this season.

 

A lot of the play calling that people are complaining about is on Allen because of bad pre and post snap decisions.    But, IMO,  Dorsey needs to acknowledge that and adjust to do his job better.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

14 hours ago, dma0034 said:

I'm at a point where I believe the Bills live and die by Allen so they might as well let him start calling plays. I think the Bills only hope to salvage the season is to go up tempo and just try and outscore every team.

This is what they should have done all along though. And they should have constructed the roster that way with lots of talent and explosiveness and depth at WR rather than trying to be perfect at every position on defense. I'm glad you're at that point now but you're about three years too late and Allen-Diggs window is being shut in our faces.

[ProcessTruster]

Diggs needs to realize teams are taking him out of the game with double coverage. 

 

He needs to accept the likely fact that he isn't getting 15 targets per game anymore but he is allowing the others to be single covered mismatches, on balance good for the team.

 

You don't get to be "debbie-diva-throw-me-the-ball dammit" .. when you are doubled the entire game.   

[Low Positive]

3 minutes ago, ProcessTruster said:

Diggs needs to realize teams are taking him out of the game with double coverage. 

 

He needs to accept the likely fact that he isn't getting 15 targets per game anymore but he is allowing the others to be single covered mismatches, on balance good for the team.

 

You don't get to be "debbie-diva-throw-me-the-ball dammit" .. when you are doubled the entire game.   

THis might as well be Diggs

 

[dma0034]

31 minutes ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

This is what they should have done all along though. And they should have constructed the roster that way with lots of talent and explosiveness and depth at WR rather than trying to be perfect at every position on defense. I'm glad you're at that point now but you're about three years too late and Allen-Diggs window is being shut in our faces.

 

I mean the major difference is the Bills defense has been stout the last few years and the beginning lf this year. So when you walk into a game against the Jets or Patriots you could say play it safe: no turnovers, more rushing etc etc. Now? I think you go in saying you live with the turnovers because you can't trust the Defense at all.

[Paup 1995MVP]

9 hours ago, LyndonvilleBill said:

I've said it in the past. Josh seems to play better when he is at the line with 18 seconds or more. Allows him to time to see the D better.  He seems more in control of the O when this happens. Also, when your at 10 or less, the D knows it's getting snapped quickly. No time for Josh or Morse to adjust if needed. Allows the D to T off.

 

I also think Josh is a little better playing it more backyard or offscript. Dorsey’s play calling may be long or too structured. Plus he seems like a control freak. You can't control Josh or Diggs, you gotta just let them be themselves and let them play.

If things continue to spiral downward, I think Diggs will implode and definitely want out after this season.  I don't think he is a McDermott fan.  We still don't know what happened at Mini Camp when he left for a day after talking w McDermott.  

 

I am sure Diggs would love to play for an offensive minded head coach.  I am sure he likes Josh.  But he is a smart guy.  Been in the league for 9 years now.  He knows how offenses work.  You don't think he sees what KC has done w Andy Reid, Mahomes and Kelce.  He is our Kelce.  Josh is our Mahomes.  And the missing piece is.....

[Mango]

2 hours ago, FrenchConnection said:

THis might as well be Diggs

 

This situation sucks. Burrow is clearly injured and Chase is out here whining. I’ve been hard on Diggs about a few incidents, but I think this is waaay worse. 
 

He has a stud QB whose clearly not 100% and he’s kicking him while he’s down. 

[Wayne Arnold]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

The issue with Dorsey is he needs to adapt to his QB being unprepared for what he was hoping for him to do this season.

 

Dorsey is calling the offense more like he has savvy veteran at QB and Allen just isn't at that level in the mental aspect of the game, unfortunately.

 

A lot of the play calling that people are complaining about is on Allen because of bad pre and post snap decisions.    But, IMO,  Dorsey needs to acknowledge that and adjust to do his job better.

 

Why not?

 

I can count 258,000,000 reasons why Allen is the one who needs to adjust and do his job better.

[LyndonvilleBill]

25 minutes ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

If things continue to spiral downward, I think Diggs will implode and definitely want out after this season.  I don't think he is a McDermott fan.  We still don't know what happened at Mini Camp when he left for a day after talking w McDermott.  

 

I am sure Diggs would love to play for an offensive minded head coach.  I am sure he likes Josh.  But he is a smart guy.  Been in the league for 9 years now.  He knows how offenses work.  You don't think he sees what KC has done w Andy Reid, Mahomes and Kelce.  He is our Kelce.  Josh is our Mahomes.  And the missing piece is.....

I don't get into the he said/she said stuff. Whatever people want to believe is on them. I think that whole thing was overblown and a bunch of garbage. OMG, he left for a day!! The world is coming to an end!! LOL!! 

 

Diggs will be fine as long as we start winning again (which will start on Thursday 😉). I don't think he is a Diva like some others do. He's a smart guy and knows how good he is with Allen throwing the ball. 

 

Lastly, It doesn't have to be an offensive minded HC. I think Diggs would be fine with an OC worthy of the job. I've lost faith that Dorsey is that guy. His boring play calls and hand me down playbook is the issue. After 1 1/2 years, you would think there would be some "Original" plays, not plays originally from Daboll...If your going to use Daboll's playbook,  at least use the Good Ones!! 😂

[BillsfaninCT]

5 hours ago, BillsShredder83 said:

been through what?  i feel like i missed something

achievement addiction.  instead of a drug high, you get achievement high.  Based on my experience with achievement addiction, low-positive is a management tool we're taught to cover an expansive range of emotions and to reframe or change our mindsets.  As he said, it also helps to manager heart rate, your ability to think, and stay out of adrenaline clouded reactions.  I am by no means claiming to be a franchise QB with that kind of value but I didn't realize my addictive tendencies could be an issue with achievement.  typically achievement and addiction wouldn't be combined in a sentence and result in therapy but it has helped me tremendously.

 

I'm also not diagnosing or saying Josh has achievement addiction, it's a term that was used in my case and seems relevant to the conversation or whatever is going on shared some similarities.

Edited October 25, 2023 by BillsfaninCT

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Why not?

 

I can count 258,000,000 reasons why Allen is the one who needs to adjust and do his job better.

 

 

Because coaches need adapt to the talent they have.    Those $258M are why Allen can prepare for the season as much or as little as he wants.

[Brand J]

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Because coaches need adapt to the talent they have.    Those $258M are why Allen can prepare for the season as much or as little as he wants.

Im with Wayne on this. You have a 6 year veteran superstar QB who’s not executing the most basic of reads. What can Dorsey do to compensate for that? Call a high percentage of rushes and screen passes? What eventually happens to offensive coordinators who are forced to work with a subpar QB? Allen isn’t subpar, but he’s playing that way at times. Forget about what the money affords him, this is more on him to execute what’s there than it is for Dorsey to cater to a QB who’s not seeing the field well. In the case of the latter, those QBs are usually replaced by those who can. Josh simply needs to play better, but he’s not alone. Everyone needs to elevate their game.

[Simon]

So are you saying that Diggs is .........elusive?

[Freddie's Dead]

3 minutes ago, Simon said:

So are you saying that Diggs is .........elusive?

Elusive and allusive, all at the same time!

[What a Tuel]

7 minutes ago, Simon said:

So are you saying that Diggs is .........elusive?

 

No, he is saying that Diggs is eluding to that fact that Josh is great at alluding defenders but not great at eluding to the next play call.

Edited October 26, 2023 by What a Tuel

[jlgarsh]

On 10/24/2023 at 9:30 PM, PBF81 said:

 

That's a little alarming.  Brady would take over.  His track record in the two years that he was the OC in Carolina is low-end.  

 

 

Not the end of the world. Look at Daboll. His offenses were terrible in Cleveland as OC but he learned from the experience. Plus I don't think he had much to work with in Carolina.

[jlgarsh]

7 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said:

Elusive and allusive, all at the same time!

But is he Illusive? 

 

 

[Scott7975]

7 hours ago, Mango said:

This situation sucks. Burrow is clearly injured and Chase is out here whining. I’ve been hard on Diggs about a few incidents, but I think this is waaay worse. 
 

He has a stud QB whose clearly not 100% and he’s kicking him while he’s down. 

 

To be fair, Chase didn't want Burrow playing at all until he was fully healthy.

[PBF81]

12 minutes ago, jlgarsh said:

Not the end of the world. Look at Daboll. His offenses were terrible in Cleveland as OC but he learned from the experience. Plus I don't think he had much to work with in Carolina.

 

It's quite arguable that he didn't learn from anything, Allen simply became "Allen" and made it seem that way. 

 

His offense in NY is DFL.  It's not simply bad, it's last.  

 

That's not a coincidence that the only two decent offenses he had were two years when Allen came out.  

 

 

[What a Tuel]

6 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

It's quite arguable that he didn't learn from anything, Allen simply became "Allen" and made it seem that way. 

 

His offense in NY is DFL.  It's not simply bad, it's last.  

 

That's not a coincidence that the only two decent offenses he had were two years when Allen came out.  

 

 

 

Careful, next they'll tell you "its bc Daboll has Jones and not Allen. But Dorsey's offense is only at all decent bc of Allen" 

 

I have zero doubt we would be talking about firing Daboll if he had stuck around. In fact I know for sure because for some reason no one remembers the 6-9 loss to the Jaguars, 41-15 loss to the colts, 3 point half against the bucs, and someone flat game against Atlanta in 2021 in which people wanted Daboll gone.

 

Not to mention the Titans and Chiefs losses and 6 field goal game against the Jets in 2020. No one was saying FIRE DABOLL! No not at all 😂

 

The grass is always greener with what we don't have with this fanbase.

Edited October 26, 2023 by What a Tuel