Has NFL Given Any Explanation Why Flag Was Picked Up?

[Ned Flanders]

1 hour ago, Zag20 said:

The PI with 18 seconds left was very impactful as it stopped the clock and gave them an extra down. That was one of those hooking the waist plays, but hardly impactful to the receiver. If that flag isn’t thrown, it’s second and goal, click running and they patriots get 2 plays before having to kick the FG to tie.

This too, the clock would still be running and Jones would have to down the ball...might not have been able to get two plays off at that point.

[TC in St. Louis]

6 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

I just watched the play on the All-22. At the time that the pass was released, the center was precisely 1 yard downfield. He was 3 yards downfield by the time Stevenson caught Mac's floater. I think that, like usual, Belichick's teams get the details right.

That's not correct.  I have photo screenshot of the play, and he's a between 1 and 2 yards (while running) and the ball is still in Jones' hand.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, MJS said:

Most games are close in the NFL. Yes, ideally you don't want the game to come down to a bad call, but often it does.

 

You seem offended that fans want to discuss one of the negative aspects of that game, which was a poor call by the refs. Everyone is in agreement that the Bills sucked and played poorly, but that doesn't mean we can't also discuss a specific play that was at least curious from the refs.

 

We all get it. There are bad calls. You don't want to be in a position where that impacts your ability to win. Yada yada. We aren't children. We understand.

That is not the topic of this thread. Everyone understands this. The question was about a specific call from the refs.

 

Clearly you don't understand.   Officiating mistakes.......the vast majority of which are missed calls with a few bad calls or flags picked up etc.. mixed in.........are made on literally every play.  

 

You have to suspend disbelief and just roll with it and attack the next play.   It sucks but it's also that human element that makes the game compelling.     Sometimes it's non-malicious simp officiating that actually makes the games more competitive instead of blowouts.   We see that all the time.  But this is the reality and it does not behoove the NFL to change anything whatsoever.   You are welcome to have these discussions and the NFL loves it when you do.   It makes you feel more part of the team by sharing the feeling of being wronged.

 

But if you can isolate one bad call that you think cost you the game then that game was probably not decisively won by either side.   The only solution is to dominate.   Fortune favors the bold in most cases so teams that dominate most often usually win SB's.   The Bills have largely done that by having the highest point differential in the league over the past few seasons but are an exception because they have laid some eggs in their biggest games during the playoffs.

[BarleyNY]

17 minutes ago, TC in St. Louis said:

That's not correct.  I have photo screenshot of the play, and he's a between 1 and 2 yards (while running) and the ball is still in Jones' hand.

 

I watched it on All 22. Two NE OLmen got about 3 yards downfield and both returned to the LOS. One was the LT who was not engaged with a defensive player (he was trying to do so but missed). Neither had any impact on the play at all. I’m sorry, but this is about as weak of a complaint as it gets. We got calls too. The roughing penalty Allen drew by flopping was far more egregious and had a much bigger impact on the outcome. The refs weren’t great, but they weren’t why we lost. 

[Marcus Aurelius]

4 hours ago, st pete gogolak said:

Not saying it determined outcome of game or Bills played well enough to win. Just curious if NFL said anything about the call.

And I'm pretty sure Pete Gogolak was the first soccer style kicker in the AFL/ NFL. How about in  division I college Football?

[dave mcbride]

18 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Clearly you don't understand.   Officiating mistakes.......the vast majority of which are missed calls with a few bad calls or flags picked up etc.. mixed in.........are made on literally every play.  

 

You have to suspend disbelief and just roll with it and attack the next play.   It sucks but it's also that human element that makes the game compelling.     Sometimes it's non-malicious simp officiating that actually makes the games more competitive instead of blowouts.   We see that all the time.  But this is the reality and it does not behoove the NFL to change anything whatsoever.   You are welcome to have these discussions and the NFL loves it when you do.   It makes you feel more part of the team by sharing the feeling of being wronged.

 

But if you can isolate one bad call that you think cost you the game then that game was probably not decisively won by either side.   The only solution is to dominate.   Fortune favors the bold in most cases so teams that dominate most often usually win SB's.   The Bills have largely done that by having the highest point differential in the league over the past few seasons but are an exception because they have laid some eggs in their biggest games during the playoffs.

Just as importantly, it's kind of an idiotic rule and it had literally zero bearing on the play. The Bills missed 4-5 tackles all on their own.

[ngbills]

Screenshot (1).pdf

[oldmanfan]

It was absurd that they didn’t.  Almost as absurd as the tacking ability of the D on that play.

[st pete gogolak]

I think I’m getting closer to an answer. No, the NFL isn’t going to give an explanation for picking up the flag (“just give it to them”).  One poster speculated that it was a lateral, thus ok for linemen to be downfield.  No, it clearly wasn’t. For what it’s worth, Stephenson was credited with 34 receiving yards, not rushing yards. Another poster, clearly a Pats lover, said it was a perfectly legal play because Belichek is a stickler for details (“ok lineman, go exactly one yard past the line of scrimmage but not an inch more”). Visual evidence refuted this ( lineman was more than a yard downfield).  
 

Again, again, not saying in the least that it cost us the game. We played like total crap.  It is just so unusual to pick up a flag in that situation that it strikes me as bizarre.  If the NFL comes out and says lineman was within a yard of the LOS at the time the pass was thrown, fine.  At least that is the league explanation.  
 

Watched the end of the Colts  Browns game. Two horrible calls at the end, especially the second pass interference ( ball was so uncatchable a fan in the stands had a better chance to catch it). Pick up the flag?  Nope. Costs the Colts the game.

12 minutes ago, Marcus Aurelius said:

And I'm pretty sure Pete Gogolak was the first soccer style kicker in the AFL/ NFL. How about in  division I college Football?

You are correct as far as NFL/AFL. I’m guessing he was first in college as well. Is that correct?

[Low Positive]

Just now, st pete gogolak said:

I think I’m getting closer to an answer. No, the NFL isn’t going to give an explanation for picking up the flag (“just give it to them”).  One poster speculated that it was a lateral, thus ok for linemen to be downfield.  No, it clearly wasn’t. For what it’s worth, Stephenson was credited with 34 receiving yards, not rushing yards. Another poster, clearly a Pats lover, said it was a perfectly legal play because Belichek is a stickler for details (“ok lineman, go exactly one yard past the line of scrimmage but not an inch more”). Visual evidence refuted this ( lineman was more than a yard downfield).  
 

Again, again, not saying in the least that it cost us the game. We played like total crap.  It is just so unusual to pick up a flag in that situation that it strikes me as bizarre.  If the NFL comes out and says lineman was within a yard of the LOS at the time the pass was thrown, fine.  At least that is the league explanation.  
 

Watched the end of the Colts  Browns game. Two horrible calls at the end, especially the second pass interference ( ball was so uncatchable a fan in the stands had a better chance to catch it). Pick up the flag?  Nope. Costs the Colts the game.

I'm a Pats lover because I got a screenshot of the All-22 footage that shows that if he was downfield when Jones released the ball, it was by about a 1/2 yard? I f-ing hate the Patriots, almost as much as I hate the Dolphins. 

 

The ball is already out his Jones' hand here and the center is a yard and a half down field. It's not unreasonable to think that he was just on that line when the ball was thrown.

 

[What a Tuel]

9 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Screenshot (1).pdf 50.21 kB · 4 downloads

 

3 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

I'm a Pats lover because I got a screenshot of the All-22 footage that shows that if he was downfield when Jones released the ball, it was by about a 1/2 yard? I f-ing hate the Patriots, almost as much as I hate the Dolphins. 

 

The ball is already out his Jones' hand here and the center is a yard and a half down field. It's not unreasonable to think that he was just on that line when the ball was thrown.

 

 

All-22 is not a great tool here. There are many shots down the line that aren't high and above, skewing perspective.

Edited October 24, 2023 by What a Tuel

[Low Positive]

2 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

 

The ball is already halfway to Stevenson there. Mac's pass was slow AF. I counted it. It took more than a second to get there. That screenshot is from when it was above Groot's hand. But I cannot continue to argue in the Patriots favor. F them. So I'm gonna let this one go. 

[st pete gogolak]

2 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

 

Hey, FC this looks like a better angle. He’s clearly more than a yard beyond the line of scrimmage at the time the ball is thrown.  And . . .the red threw the flag.  Again why pick it up?  If the flag is t thrown no complaint. Calls missed ALL THE TIME.

[Unforgiven]

The NFL is entertainment.

[Zag20]

There is so much the league could do to help the bad officiating, but they don’t. For example, it would take about 5 seconds to review roughing the passer calls, like the one where Josh flopped his head back as though he had been hit in it. We all it immediately after the play.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Zag20

[MJS]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Clearly you don't understand.   Officiating mistakes.......the vast majority of which are missed calls with a few bad calls or flags picked up etc.. mixed in.........are made on literally every play.  

 

You have to suspend disbelief and just roll with it and attack the next play.   It sucks but it's also that human element that makes the game compelling.     Sometimes it's non-malicious simp officiating that actually makes the games more competitive instead of blowouts.   We see that all the time.  But this is the reality and it does not behoove the NFL to change anything whatsoever.   You are welcome to have these discussions and the NFL loves it when you do.   It makes you feel more part of the team by sharing the feeling of being wronged.

 

But if you can isolate one bad call that you think cost you the game then that game was probably not decisively won by either side.   The only solution is to dominate.   Fortune favors the bold in most cases so teams that dominate most often usually win SB's.   The Bills have largely done that by having the highest point differential in the league over the past few seasons but are an exception because they have laid some eggs in their biggest games during the playoffs.

Goodness, give it a rest. Do you think you are stating something that people don't already know?

 

Nobody is disputing that. Stop saying the same crap over and over.

 

Fans can still talk about an officiating blunder if they want. They aren't excusing the team for sucking.

[DaggersEOD]

3 hours ago, FrenchConnection said:

I just watched the play on the All-22. At the time that the pass was released, the center was precisely 1 yard downfield. He was 3 yards downfield by the time Stevenson caught Mac's floater. I think that, like usual, Belichick's teams get the details right.

So it’s where they were when the ball is thrown…I guess that’s a more consistent place to enforce.

 

Bah…makes sense but still it really looked bad. Dude was almost at the 1st down marker. 
 

I wish we had innovation and/or crafty experience on our staff…

[TC in St. Louis]

3 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

 

I watched it on All 22. Two NE OLmen got about 3 yards downfield and both returned to the LOS. One was the LT who was not engaged with a defensive player (he was trying to do so but missed). Neither had any impact on the play at all. I’m sorry, but this is about as weak of a complaint as it gets. We got calls too. The roughing penalty Allen drew by flopping was far more egregious and had a much bigger impact on the outcome. The refs weren’t great, but they weren’t why we lost. 

The center started running downfield as soon as he snapped the ball.  He was nearly 2 yards past the line of scrimmage when the ball left the quarterback's hand.  I have it on tape and have watched it several times.  Is that why we lost?  Because they picked up the flag?  Why did they pick up the flag?   That's the question. I read somewhere that they thought it was not a forward pass.  Does anybody think they would risk throwing a backward pass at that point in the game?  No.  It was a forward pass.  It was a penalty, and they should have called the play back.   1st and 15. 

38 minutes ago, Zag20 said:

There is so much the league could do to help the bad officiating, but they don’t. For example, it would take about 5 seconds to review roughing the passer calls, like the one where Josh flopped his head back as though he had been hit in it. We all it immediately after the play.

Maybe they called roughing because the guy took two full strides after Josh threw the ball.  That's avoidable.

2 hours ago, What a Tuel said:

 

 

All-22 is not a great tool here. There are many shots down the line that aren't high and above, skewing perspective.

The center's foot is 3 yards downfield.  That's why they dropped the flag.  Can you not see that?  His left foot is on the 28 yard line.  

[BearNorth]

3 hours ago, Marcus Aurelius said:

And I'm pretty sure Pete Gogolak was the first soccer style kicker in the AFL/ NFL. How about in  division I college Football?

You are correct.  I was in HS, and remember the big buzz about this amazing kicker from Cornell who was a soccer player.  I live in the North Country and apparently he and his family were refugees from Hungary and his father was a medical doctor at the state hospital in Ogdensburg.  Since he kicked at Cornell, he might be the first in D-I as well.

 

I did find this tho - https://ampoleagle.com/bednarski-preceded-gogolak-in-soccerstyle-kicking-p8059-208.htm.  Apparently Texas had a soccer style kicker in 1957.

Edited October 24, 2023 by BearNorth

[Beast]

I’m pretty sure they picked the flag up because the pass was completed behind the line of scrimmage.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Beast

[Dr.Sack]

Apparently the OL can be up to 1 yard past the LOS at the time of the pass leaves the QB's hand. It looks like the Pats Center was at the 27 yard line. This should be a challengeable play if anything. Being that it occurred under 2 minutes in the half it should be an automatic review. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Dr.Sack

[Livinginthepast]

8 hours ago, JÂy RÛßeÒ said:

Just give it to 'em ring any bells?

 

Honestly that was the first thing I thought of! One of those complete BS NFL moments that is simultaneously offensively dumb and egregiously unfair! The entire group of amateurs that officiated that game should have been fired after that game which cost the Bills a homefield game in the playoffs.

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, TC in St. Louis said:

The center started running downfield as soon as he snapped the ball.  He was nearly 2 yards past the line of scrimmage when the ball left the quarterback's hand.  I have it on tape and have watched it several times.  Is that why we lost?  Because they picked up the flag?  Why did they pick up the flag?   That's the question. I read somewhere that they thought it was not a forward pass.  Does anybody think they would risk throwing a backward pass at that point in the game?  No.  It was a forward pass.  It was a penalty, and they should have called the play back.   1st and 15. 

Any comments on the poor calls and non-calls that went against NE?

[Marcus Aurelius]

54 minutes ago, BearNorth said:

You are correct.  I was in HS, and remember the big buzz about this amazing kicker from Cornell who was a soccer player.  I live in the North Country and apparently he and his family were refugees from Hungary and his father was a medical doctor at the state hospital in Ogdensburg.  Since he kicked at Cornell, he might be the first in D-I as well.

 

I did find this tho - https://ampoleagle.com/bednarski-preceded-gogolak-in-soccerstyle-kicking-p8059-208.htm.  Apparently Texas had a soccer style kicker in 1957.

Cool article. Wow.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

9 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Reminds me of the "Just give it to them" call against the Pats.

 

That has NO relevancy to the play.  Whether he is blocking anyone or not, doesn't make it OK for him to be more than 1 yard downfield.  It's still a penalty even if he is dancing by himself downfield.

Actually it does. According to what I read if he is blocking someone at the LOS and the act of blocking takes him downfield it is not a penalty.

 

Regardless he wasn't blocking anyone and it was and should have been a penalty. 

[Punching Bag]

9 hours ago, Jerome007 said:

THIS!!! I don't get it. There needs to be a league explanation here. If the flag was never thrown, maybe we would not have noticed. But it was thrown, and the replay so clear! The center was at least 5 yards downfield. He wasn't blocking anyone or near anyone tough, so is that the reason? I don't think so... but we need to know!

 

What is this "Bills didn't deserve to win crap"? Both teams played the game, and there are rules in this game. The center didn't impact the play, but rules are rules. If the Cheats go back 5 yards instead of going forward 30 yards, that's a HUGE difference. Bills likely win. 

 

It reminds me of "just give it to them" game.  Someone in press should ask Goodell if this is one of his experiments.

[VaMilBill]

One thing that drives me crazy is that in the playoffs the refs have the booth to assist in all calls. It essentially removed the need for challenges because the refs used quick replays to fix an errant call/ no-call. It actually worked pretty well. On top of all that, it was efficient and didn’t even slow the game down.  
 

I have no idea why they don’t do that in the regular season. 

[Zag20]

56 minutes ago, VaMilBill said:

One thing that drives me crazy is that in the playoffs the refs have the booth to assist in all calls. It essentially removed the need for challenges because the refs used quick replays to fix an errant call/ no-call. It actually worked pretty well. On top of all that, it was efficient and didn’t even slow the game down.  
 

I have no idea why they don’t do that in the regular season. 

Well that would cost them a few thousand dollars per game and they can’t get into their tight revenue margin.

[Richard Noggin]

6 hours ago, TC in St. Louis said:

That's not correct.  I have photo screenshot of the play, and he's a between 1 and 2 yards (while running) and the ball is still in Jones' hand.

 

Why would you NOT share that with an interested crowd of fellow fans?

[WideNine]

Hunter Henry also bowled over our defenders in coverage down at the goal line freeing up their receiver for a TD with no OPI called on their very obvious pick play.

 

Murray picks a guy to free Knox and the offensive PI flag was thrown.

 

Neutral zone infraction on Torrence a guard. Diggs getting obviously mugged on his routes. A phantom DPI call on 3rd and long to extend a NE scoring drive...

 

We played bad, but the officiating was horrible all game long.

 

They are not mutually exclusive things, both can be true. In that game, I left feeling we got the short end of the officiating stick.

 

All I ask is that if they are going to call ticky-tacky or phantom penalties on one team they need to call them on the other too.

 

I hate a flag fest, but if the laundry is going to fly call it the same for both sides.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by WideNine

[Breakout Squad]

12 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

No and they need not.

 

If you play poorly for 58 minutes and find yourself in a tight game at the end because of it you have earned the right to have the random officials calls help decide the outcome.

 

And the more angry fans get about it the more bonded to their teams they become.

 

How philosophical 

[Big Turk]

12 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Actually it does. According to what I read if he is blocking someone at the LOS and the act of blocking takes him downfield it is not a penalty.

 

Regardless he wasn't blocking anyone and it was and should have been a penalty. 

 

Yes, if he is blocking someone legally prior to being downfield.  That was not the case...there was nobody for him to block until he got 5 yards downfield.

[uticaclub]

We lose to Giants without the refs bailing us out. This team needs to play better, Mac Jones tore us apart all game.

[TC in St. Louis]

13 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

Any comments on the poor calls and non-calls that went against NE?

Yeah.  Refs suck.  I'm still wondering why they picked up the flag.  

11 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

Why would you NOT share that with an interested crowd of fellow fans?

I don't know how to do that.  It's on my phone.  Tell me how.

[Jerome007]

1 hour ago, uticaclub said:

We lose to Giants without the refs bailing us out. This team needs to play better, Mac Jones tore us apart all game.

Yes. So the Bills would still be 4-3. But with one more division win and one more NFC loss. Anyway, both teams (Giants and Bills) got screwed. My point remains though: a non-call happens. A call made and then reversed without any explanation? More problematic IMO.

[BarleyNY]

16 minutes ago, TC in St. Louis said:

Yeah.  Refs suck.  I'm still wondering why they picked up the flag.  

According to the article I posted that wasn’t the only flag that got picked up. Also there were a multitude of issues with the refs. Just curious why you are harping ad nauseam on just that specific situation. If one was to objectively wonder about the refereeing in the game there’s plenty to discuss. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

Yes, if he is blocking someone legally prior to being downfield.  That was not the case...there was nobody for him to block until he got 5 yards downfield.

That's what i said

[Long Suffering Fan]

58 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

According to the article I posted that wasn’t the only flag that got picked up. Also there were a multitude of issues with the refs. Just curious why you are harping ad nauseam on just that specific situation. If one was to objectively wonder about the refereeing in the game there’s plenty to discuss. 

 

I would guess that he his harping on this because it was so egregious and it happened on the game winning drive?

 

There was all sorts of bad referring in a certain game 6 Stanley Cup OT game against the Dallas Stars. However, I tend to focus on just one thing more than others.

 

In both cases we still could have lost even if the right call was made, but they just were so blatant.

[Punching Bag]

Per Jim Kubiak Buffalo News article "Jim Kubiak: How Patriots' defense duped, disguised and beat Josh Allen and Bills":

Quote

From an analysis standpoint, I felt that it was important to look at this play that was the catalyst on the Patriots game-winning drive. 

The Patriots used motion to the right side of the field and threw a swing route out to Rhamondre Stevenson. Center David Andrews was initially flagged for being illegally downfield. By rule, he is allowed to be downfield no more than 1 yard upon release of the football from the quarterback's hand. The officialspicked up the flag after discussing. Upon review, Andrews was approximately 1-yard down field although Buffalo fans and Patriots fans would surely disagree.

 

[LABILLBACKER]

On 10/24/2023 at 8:29 AM, JÂy RÛßeÒ said:

Just give it to 'em ring any bells?

 

Exactly...the refs knew this was a chance at Beli's 300th..."let's pick this sh it up and see what happens".....