Memo to Beane, Dorsey - What the Bills need to do to perfect the offense. (With Poll)

[Chaos]

To : Beane, Dorsey

All is well in Buffalo.  Team is on a roll, and I expect them to be solid winners over the Dolphins on Sunday. 

Everything is relative however and the the offense is not yet perfect.   Here is our collective polled wisdom on what your priority needs to be to perfect the offense. 

Please execute on this advice by the time we get back from London. Thank you. 

Inspired by this thread. Just added to collect the polling data. https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/249644-the-bills-biggest-problem-on-offense-remains-unchanged/

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Chaos

[gobills404]

I think a team that runs 12p as it’s base offense should figure out how to actually get some meaningful production from their TEs. Knox and Kincaid are on pace for less than 700 yards COMBINED. It’s pathetic.

[BuffaloBillyG]

How does getting Spencer Brown a vasectomy help this offense?

[Chaos]

28 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

How does getting Spencer Brown a vasectomy help this offense?

Are you suggesting the more aggressive step of gelding?

[Matt_In_NH]

This offense sucks, its not fixable

[ngbills]

Combo of things. The more fixable things would related to scheme, play-calling, personnel usage, etc. The would be nice ones are replacing Brown, adding a better #2 WR. 

[MJS]

Use play action more. Use more pre-snap movement.

3 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Combo of things. The more fixable things would related to scheme, play-calling, personnel usage, etc. The would be nice ones are replacing Brown, adding a better #2 WR. 

What about the scheme would you fix? What play calling? What personnel changes would you make? Just curious.

[RyanC883]

all of the above, so I chose other.  Otherwise, I'd go with Brown.  Fixing the OL will enable TEs to run routes, providing additional dimensions to the offense.  

49 minutes ago, gobills404 said:

I think a team that runs 12p as it’s base offense should figure out how to actually get some meaningful production from their TEs. Knox and Kincaid are on pace for less than 700 yards COMBINED. It’s pathetic.

 

have to help Brown.  I also would like to seem them more involved.  

[MPL]

Improving the RT spot would definitely help, but neutering Spencer Brown seems a little extreme... 

[KDIGGZ]

Fire Dorsey. The offense is so predictable it's a joke. The other team knows Gabe Davis runs 2 routes, they know Harty is running a reverse, they are now learning Kincaid only catches 3 yard passes. That stupid draw play to Cook where Josh runs to the side to hand him the ball is like wtf. If I'm a LB as soon as he does that I'm crashing on the RB because they never fake it out of that look.

 

I dream of having a good OC but it might be too late. Josh already has his bad habits and they are of the mindset that they will take the good with the bad so let's have an OC that let's him play outside of structure and do whatever he wants. The top OC's would never give up that kind of control.

[DC Greg]

I'd start by saying the offense is improving and still very good overall, imo. I wish they'd focus on using their first round weapon they traded up for more as the season goes on. I'd really like to see them focusing on more plays where Kincaid is Josh's first read rather than second or third. All these plays drawn up for Harty could be chances to get the ball in the hands of someone I believe has already shown much more receiving playmaking ability.

[Chaos]

7 minutes ago, MPL said:

Improving the RT spot would definitely help, but neutering Spencer Brown seems a little extreme... 

Sometimes motivation is key. "Spencer, if things don't pick up, we are going to have to fix you"

[ngbills]

13 minutes ago, MJS said:

Use play action more. Use more pre-snap movement.

What about the scheme would you fix? What play calling? What personnel changes would you make? Just curious.

I definitely would go under center more and run play action. Even start under center and then send the back in motion and have Josh drop back to the shotgun. Just mix it up more and become less predictable. Guys in motion and mixing up the formations.

I would love to see more slants and crosses (with Josh rolling out). Add in combo/pick routes to get the ball out quick. I am not a fan of so many of our plays being long intricate routes or long stop routes. The screens or swing routes need to drop way down the list. I also want to see them spread the field more, both pre snap and in the routes. The Bills have so many routes with multiple guys in the same areas - I dont get it. Also routes with only one option should get pushed way down the list. 

I think they can have Cook and Murray in the backfield at the same time. Add in some Cook and Kincaid in the backfield. They need another threat behind Diggs. I dont think teams are scared of anyone else out there. So I would spread the field more have Diggs moving around to help get him open use more Sherfield/Knox/Kincaid in the seam with Diggs running the slant. Switch that up with Diggs running the out behind the guy running seam or post/corner. Not sure what to do with Harty, maybe he can be effective vs man running cross routes or going deep. The short stuff to him is pointless. Well thats a ramble. 

[Don Otreply]

Imo, better use of existing personnel / play calling is the key going forward, not that a better WR2 or RT would hurt, but at this point in the season, who’s available to upgrade those spots…, 

[gobills404]

34 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

have to help Brown.  I also would like to seem them more involved.  

Brown got help from a TE on a total of 5 passing plays last week. He’s not the issue.

[gonzo1105]

Have the QB continue to play within the system verse trying to have him do it all himself. 

[Lost]

The Dolphins have perfected an offense while having a vulnerable QB and a weakish OL.   The Bills should be studying Mike McDaniel because he is giving a master class on building an offense that centers around the strengths of it's talent while at the same time covering their weaknesses.   Bad OL?  Just get rid of the ball in under 2.5 seconds.   Intelligent QB with limited arm strength?   Run mostly short to mid range timing routes across the middle.  

 

I suspect the Bills will gameplan against the dolphins to try and consume clock and keep their offense off the field.  While that is good to a degree, it kinda just goes back to playing not to lose instead of playing to our strengths and making the other team adapt to us.   We are capable, we witnessed it in the playoffs of 2021 and early 2022.   We have two really good tight ends but we seem content on keeping them near the line of scrimmage just to help block instead of using them as weapons.   

Edited September 27, 2023 by Lost

[gonzo1105]

1 minute ago, Lost said:

The Dolphins have perfected an offense while having a vulnerable QB and a weakish OL.   The Bills should be studying Mike McDaniel because he is giving a master class on building an offense that centers around the strengths of it's talent while at the same time covering their weaknesses.   Bad OL?  Just get rid of the ball in under 2.5 seconds.   Intelligent QB with limited arm strength?   Run mostly short to mid range timing routes across the middle.  

 

Do the Bills have 4 of the fastest players in the NFL right now on offense, because that is the sole reason for their success. Don't have to block anyone when your WR's are immediately open because they can separate. Dont need to have a QB with a cannon arm when the throwing windows are huge.

 

As much as Belichick gets hate, his gameplan is correct. The Dolphins love to throw the ball between the hashes at all levels. Clog the middle of the field and make Tua throw the 12 yard curls, the 9 routes with consistency. 

[Mango]

This is bad poll because the options suck. 

[Rc2catch]

I went with other, I would like to see more importance to the run game. They’ve done it the last couple but it still seems like it’s an after thought.  I just think they’re built as a solid run team right now, solid defense, and the ability to shoot it out if they have to. 
Imo the pieces are here, they’ve had enough pieces for 2-3 years. 

[Einstein's Dog]

16 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Imo, better use of existing personnel / play calling is the key going forward, not that a better WR2 or RT would hurt, but at this point in the season, who’s available to upgrade those spots…, 

Probably a couple of WRs should be available prior to the trade deadline.  

 

The big ones are M Evans as Tampa now starts to destruct.  He's on the last year of his contract and it's no secret that they probably aren't bringing him back.

 

The next big one could be C Kupp.  The Rams have the surprise young WRs that are showing in Kupp's absence.  When Kupp comes back one of those pleasant surprises will be benched.  The Rams might want to start thinking about the future and move Kupp.

[H2o]

There are multiple contributing factors. Dorsey needs to be a bit more creative with his play calling in the passing game, and use pre-snap motion to our benefit. It's been quite vanilla in this regard, and I think it goes back to last season. He needs to be better at scheming up route combinations that actually get people open. We have two good TE's, one drafted in the first round this year because of his receiving prowess. For God's sake, use the man for the same reasons you drafted him. Him and Knox should be mismatches against smaller defenders all game long. Let Knox do what he's done the last three years, and have Kincaid running option routes to find the soft spots in Zone as well as running the seams. At the same time, if Josh continues to take what the defense gives him (as he is completing 72% of his passes) then this will mask some of Dorsey's deficiencies. This is until we get into the Red Zone. Josh also has to STOP throwing the ball into double and triple coverage. At this point it's just stupid. Live to fight another play. Overall, the play calling and utilization of the guys we have has to be better. Spencer Brown still isn't a good NFL RT. He can't handle speed rushers for sure, and finds himself setting up too high against the bull rush at times also. Davis is still meh. One game he may be a lion. The next three he may be a lamb. Shakir deserves more looks in the Slot if we are running three WR sets. Harty has been rather ineffective. Not really sure what's going on with Sherfield, whether it be scheme or on him, but I expected a bit more out of him as well. The running game and Cook have been a welcome surprise this year. Of course that will take away from some of the gaudy passing numbers, but all of us can see this offense still isn't clicking. 

[Chaos]

1 minute ago, Mango said:

This is bad poll because the options suck. 

I guess you are incapable of selecting "something else "and providing a reason. 💩

Edited September 27, 2023 by Chaos

[Mango]

3 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I guess you are incapable of selecting "something else "and providing a reason. 💩

 

I wanted to select bad poll, but the description was listed as "offense is perfect". So I left my reason. 

[GunnerBill]

To "perfect" the offense they need to do all 3. 

 

In terms of the most important and achievable it is red zone playcalling. (Clarification: I mean as in during the season).

Edited September 27, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Sherlock Holmes]

Throw to Kincaid on almost every play

[SoonerBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Chaos said:

To : Beane, Dorsey

All is well in Buffalo.  Team is on a roll, and I expect them to be solid winners over the Dolphins on Sunday. 

Everything is relative however and the the offense is not yet perfect.   Here is our collective polled wisdom on what your priority needs to be to perfect the offense. 

Please execute on this advice by the time we get back from London. Thank you. 

Inspired by this thread. Just added to collect the polling data. https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/249644-the-bills-biggest-problem-on-offense-remains-unchanged/

 

 

I put something else, because I feel we aren't doing anything this year barring an injury.  They will go with what they have at this point.

[4merper4mer]

Can you add:

 

Bad poll false choices provided by author

 

as a potential answer to the poll?

[Gobills14094]

run the ball from under center more frequently and from shotgun less figure out why Harty jet sweeps keep blowing up or take them out of the playbook, stop running the ball on every 2nd and long as it's extremely predictable, figure out how to run WR and RB screens more effectively. USE THE EAGLES PUSH ON 4TH AND INCHES

[Fleezoid]

 

I have a question about this 12 personnel thing. Actually a more general question to the numbered personnel terminology.

 

Let's say for example we're at the goal line. And the Bills line up with 1 tight end, their normal compliment of linemen, no RB, but one of our backup linemen lines up at RB. The Fridge thing. Is that 11 personnel or 01 personnel? Seems to me it should be 11 which is contrary to how we use 12 personnel with Kincaid lining up in various spots. 

 

Why is the numbered formation terminology based on the players and not the actual formations? I think if you're in 12 personnel, the tight ends (regardless who is playing the position) should be in tight on the line of scrimmage. What if we put 3 RBs split wide with 1 TE in tight and 1 TE in the backfield? That's 32 personnel implying 3 RBs. and no WRs, when we really have 3 wideouts and 1 RB. Or am I overthinking this whole thing?

[bmur66]

Snip snip

[Chaos]

40 minutes ago, Fleezoid said:

 

I have a question about this 12 personnel thing. Actually a more general question to the numbered personnel terminology.

 

Let's say for example we're at the goal line. And the Bills line up with 1 tight end, their normal compliment of linemen, no RB, but one of our backup linemen lines up at RB. The Fridge thing. Is that 11 personnel or 01 personnel? Seems to me it should be 11 which is contrary to how we use 12 personnel with Kincaid lining up in various spots. 

 

Why is the numbered formation terminology based on the players and not the actual formations? I think if you're in 12 personnel, the tight ends (regardless who is playing the position) should be in tight on the line of scrimmage. What if we put 3 RBs split wide with 1 TE in tight and 1 TE in the backfield? That's 32 personnel implying 3 RBs. and no WRs, when we really have 3 wideouts and 1 RB. Or am I overthinking this whole thing?

I was told there would be no math involved

[Fleezoid]

3 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I was told there would be no math involved

 

Sorry. I got a headache typing that.

[ngbills]

2 hours ago, Sherlock Holmes said:

Throw to Kincaid on almost every play

1st and 10 - 1 yd pass to Kincaid

2nd and 9 - 1 yd pass to Kincaid

3rd and 8 - 1 yd pass to Kincaid

4th and 7 - punt

[TH3]

#2 scoring offense last year ….just scored 38 and 37 points…..FFS

[Chaos]

2 minutes ago, TH3 said:

#2 scoring offense last year ….just scored 38 and 37 points…..FFS

What part of the difference between "All is well" and "Perfect" don't you understand? We are all here to help. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

If you are talking long term then two things need to happen. You let Davis and Dawkins walk this offseason and you replace them with first and second round draft picks.

 

If you are talking about this season then all they need is time. Everyone complained all offseason about the OL. The OL is better with two new players one of which is a rookie. Brown is holding his own.  

They have two new WR, two new RBs, and a new slot/TE/pass catcher in Kincaid. 

Just give Dorsey and company time to figure themselves out.  We don't need them to peak in September. We need them to peak in January. 

 

Also perhaps Dorsey should phone a friend and figure out how to run a basic screen to a RB or TE. 

[Chaos]

11 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Also perhaps Dorsey should phone a friend and figure out how to run a basic screen to a RB or TE. 

Anyone but Daboll. 

[DrDawkinstein]

Fixing the RT spot would have the double benefit of increasing TE production since they would no longer have to stay in and chip, and then that also solves the #2 receiver issue, so I'll go with that one.

 

Although, in lieu of that miracle happening, I am all for keeping the TEs doing what they are doing and staying in to help. It's working. Good on Dorsey for finding that solution, regardless of it limiting TE production.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by DrDawkinstein

[Since1981]

 McClappy thinks MIA O is “revolutionary” and “creative”.  First step is admitting you have a problem…