Who would you rather have....during his prime....Edmunds or London Fletcher?

[Kiva]

46 minutes ago, Success said:

 

A "terrible" LB?

 

He is one of the top FA's out there right now. Opposing fans have a much higher estimation of him than some here.

 

Dude is weak mentally and it shows on the field. Our d suffered because of his selfishness. 

[Warriorspikes51]

Fletcher

[ganesh]

Neither...Both of them dragged down ball carriers well past the Line of Scrimmage.

1 hour ago, Kiva said:

Dude is weak mentally and it shows on the field. Our d suffered because of his selfishness. 

May be it is the coaching and not putting him in the right position.  Too often we saw him be taken away from the ball carrier.

[John from Riverside]

That’s an interesting question
 

You have to factor in the type of defense that you’re going to play I don’t think that London Fletcher would’ve done as well for what the bills have been doing

 

Edmunds ability to get anywhere on the field extremely underrated. Did he have Fletchers instincts?  No

[Dopey]

7 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Ironically when Fletcher was here he was the whipping boy like Edmunds has been here.  I loved Fletcher, but the irrational nonsense around here was almost the same as Edmunds. As the leader in tackles, all anyone here said over and over was that it didn’t matter, Fletcher made the tackles too far downfield because he sucks so he has to go.  
 

All he did was go on to KEEP being one of the best LBs in the game for a long time.  Bills would go on to have crappier play at LB for a long time.  
 

Posters here were as wrong about Fletcher sucking as they are about Edmunds sucking.  
 

Im totally fine not resigning Edmunds for cap reasons, but he definitely doesn’t suck and he’s been better than the over exaggeration of his detractors around here claim.  
 

I wish him well in his next destination and I have a feeling he’s going to have continued and maybe even greater success elsewhere.  

A huge AMEN to this post. 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Dopey

[PBF81]

4 hours ago, Eastport bills said:

Beane needs his best offseason to keep us in the conversation for SB contender. I don’t know about you, but his FA misses and pedestrian drafts doesn’t give me much confidence. The guy has to bring in some difference makers on both sides of the ball. He passed on Edmunds and he was our best defender. He can get two good players for Edmunds tag money. Let’s see how aggressive he is.

 

Yeah, completely agree.  Then again, what we think doesn't matter.  LOL 

 

As we've seen, Beane says he's not doing much of note in Free Agency.  

 

To prevent the perceptions about him from plummeting, he'll need an A+ Draft.  There's no precedent for that however.  So I guess we'll see, but I'm not sure that there's much reason for hope.  

 

Von Miller was a high-risk/high-reward move that covered his drafting inadequacies, but which we realized the risks on.  I personally don't think he'll play for us beyond next season and he won't be nearly the player he's been.  But the failure of that move has hamstrung us even more than we would have been.  I know that's obvious, just sayin'.  

 

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

8 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

London, dude was underrated and is a victim of fan “group think.”

 

we should have never let him go.

Wow... The irony. Will history repeat itself. 

[In Summary]

For today's game, I can't see Fletcher being better than Edmunds.

[Locomark]

At this point Fletcher. The 18 million dollar question is Edmunds at his potential yet or is it still coming? Either way in today’s NFL he isn’t worth 18 million a year unless he is a dominant perennial all pro in my book. 

[The Wiz]

Let's throw Crowell into this too, that'll be fun!

[PBF81]

6 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

London's rookie year he practically didn't play. His next 5 years he had better numbers than Edmunds. 

 

Fletcher

Ints   6

Sacks  18

TFL   47

 

Edmunds 

Ints  5

Sacks  6.5

TFL  32

....maybe Tremaine continues to grow & develop. But I just never see him being a playmaker LB.  Hopefully he goes to the NFC.

 

Well, OK, perspectives apparently.  I don't feel justified comparing a player at 20, 21, and 22 to one that played in his mid-20s.  

 

As to the differences, Fletcher also had much much more of an entire defense around him.  Kelsay, Schobel, Pat Williams, Kyle Williams, Adams in front of him.  In my book that makes an enormous difference.  He also played in a 4-3 with A, two LBs beside him, not like Fletcher having to cover the entire backfield, and some of those LBs included Spikes, Crowell, and Posey.  

 

Put Edmonds on those teams and Fletcher on these and that's a huge part of the difference.  

 

We'll see, and we'll know if for no other reason he plays much better elsewhere.  A lot of it is McD as well  

 

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Edmunds and its not even close. Never loved either player but Fletcher is in the top 3 all time overrated Bills. 

[Governor]

3 hours ago, ganesh said:

Neither...Both of them dragged down ball carriers well past the Line of Scrimmage.

May be it is the coaching and not putting him in the right position.  Too often we saw him be taken away from the ball carrier.

Yup. Fletcher was also victimized pretty often before he came to Buffalo. His deficiencies were targeted just like Edmunds.
 

My vote is neither.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Governor

[transplantbillsfan]

Edmunds obviously.

 

He still hasn't reached his prime.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

15 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

London, dude was underrated and is a victim of fan “group think.”

 

we should have never let him go.

Exactly. I remember when fans said most his tackles were “5-10 yards down the field.” Bills fan didn’t know what they had. Just like Antoine Winfield and Pat Williams. He went on to the Redskins and had 7 more great seasons playing until he was 38 never slowing down. One of the most cerebral MLBs of all time and it’s why he was able to be effective so late in his career on top of being undersized. It’s honestly a travesty that he’s not in the HOF. I feel like he was just as good as Zach Thomas who just got elected. 14 seasons with 100+ tackles. Insane. 

Edited March 12, 2023 by ChronicAndKnuckles

[sirebors]

Von Miller / Chris Spielman / Bryce Paup

[SoMAn]

Edmunds and his value as a Bills’ LB is polarizing.

Serious question with no agenda- what games did Edmunds miss that were impacted negatively by his absence? 

I don’t know the answer but am sure some of you do.  
I’m aware that AJ Klein and others have filled his role occasionally, but don’t recall a highly measurable drop off in defensive production.  Was there? 

Here’s another way to ask the original question: would you rather have Edmunds or a carbon copy of Milano playing along side Milano? 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, SoMAn said:

Edmunds and his value as a Bills’ LB is polarizing.

Serious question with no agenda- what games did Edmunds miss that were impacted negatively by his absence? 

I don’t know the answer but am sure some of you do.  
I’m aware that AJ Klein and others have filled his role occasionally, but don’t recall a highly measurable drop off in defensive production.  Was there? 

Here’s another way to ask the original question: would you rather have Edmunds or a carbon copy of Milano playing along side Milano? 

People point to the second half of the Minnesota game. Klein wasn't on the roster then. 

 

[YodaMan79]

Not only would I take Fletcher with the Bills, but I'd also take the version of him that was with team I shall not name, for fear being cancelled.  He was a very impressive sideline to sideline player.  Amazing that he came from D3.  

 

Edit: I had no idea he was a second team all-pro twice in his later years.  Also, looking at his FF, INTs and PD...he made impactful plays, with an occasional sack.  

Edited March 12, 2023 by YodaMan79

[Sherlock Holmes]

Luke Kuechly

[TheWeatherMan]

19 hours ago, teef said:

John ***** DiGiorgio. 

Tie between him and Kelsay 

[BearNorth]

If you are talking Middle Linebackers, and teams with great records, + wins in the playoffs your options are:

 

1964-5 - Harry Jacobs

1981 [3-4] Jim Haslett, Shane Nelson

1988 [3-4] Shane Conlan, Ray Bentley

1990-92 [3-4] Shane Conlan, Carlton Bailey

1993 [3-4] Mark Maddox, Marvcus Patton

1995 [3-4] Marlo Perry, 'biscuit [age 30 last year with Bills]

2020-2022 [4-3] Edmunds

 

Not exactly a position of strength over the years for this franchise

 

[Thurman#1]

20 hours ago, TC in St. Louis said:

Just wondering.  If everybody played with the passion of London Fletcher, this would be a different game.  

 

I loved watching him when he was here in St. Louis, and was thrilled he went to our team.  

 

But there's something about Edmunds.  I hope he stays.  I don't care what he gets paid.  

 

 

London Fletcher was really really good. He is still under-appreciated here.

 

He was as good or better at run defense than Edmunds, IMO. But Edmunds is significantly better at pass defense.

 

With the rules today so favoring the pass, I take Edmunds.

 

 

20 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Agreed, it's hardly an apples-to-apples comparison.  

 

Your post actually jars loose some thoughts.  They initially tried to stock a 4-3, but Beane's approach to stocking the LBs is similar to his approach for stocking the OL.  Dumpster-diving and 1-2 year signees.  Having a third non-starting caliber LB in there was also a liability.  I'm assuming that's why they stopped trying that and went with what they're now doing.  

 

What will get very interesting is if Edmunds leaves, a seeming certainty now, is who they bring on.  If it's more dumpster-diving, good luck to us.  

 

 

 

It's only a seeming certainty in the heads of yourself and a few others, most of whom seem desperate for that outcome.

 

What you've got there is wishful thinking. And imprecise thinking. The reality is that it could easily go either way.

 

 

13 hours ago, Kiva said:

Dude is weak mentally and it shows on the field. Our d suffered because of his selfishness. 

 

 

If it showed on the field, he wouldn't be getting the offers he is going to be getting. The argument is simply stupid.

 

There is one place where it shows up, though. I have to admit that. It definitely shows up in the heads of a significant number of Bills fans.

 

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

19 hours ago, Virgil said:

Urlacher made plays.  Edmunds doesn’t. Edmunds lack of big play ability makes him expendable to me.  
 

If our expectations are only for him to not mess up and be functional, then we will never win the Super Bowl.  

 

 

Virgil, if he really didn't make big plays, why do so many GMs want him so bad?

 

Sorry, man, that argument has never made a bit of sense.

 

His big plays aren't as visible or as exciting as some, and many can't get past this. But all you have to know is how very much better the D is when he's out there. There's a reason for that, and the reason is that he's affecting play, particularly in the pass game, all the damn time, making the QB's decisions a lot harder consistently.

 

Go back and look at the Minnesota game. He played the first half and was out for the second. That was the only difference in personnel, but our D looks like two completely different groups, and the one on the field when Edmunds was out was vastly worse.

 

Again, #4 against the pass when he was playing this year, and #27 when he was not. That is a guy who is affecting play a great deal, even if it's not in an obvious, visible way.

[Paup 1995MVP]

5 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Exactly. I remember when fans said most his tackles were “5-10 yards down the field.” Bills fan didn’t know what they had. Just like Antoine Winfield and Pat Williams. He went on to the Redskins and had 7 more great seasons playing until he was 38 never slowing down. One of the most cerebral MLBs of all time and it’s why he was able to be effective so late in his career on top of being undersized. It’s honestly a travesty that he’s not in the HOF. I feel like he was just as good as Zach Thomas who just got elected. 14 seasons with 100+ tackles. Insane. 

Those are some strong numbers for sure for London.  Not sure I would put him in the HOF.  But definitely in the Hall of Very Good.  And he would get some consideration for the HOF.  I thought he was a really good player though.  Brought his best every week.  Was a strong leader.  Got the most out of his game.  

Edmonds played better last year.  But disappeared in the playoffs.  His pass coverage skills are overrated.  He seems to get lost in space, and loses track of guys.  His instincts for the position are marginal.   I am sure someone will offer him a big contract, because of his size and length.  But he is not a very good football player.  Nick Bolton for the Chiefs and Logan Wilson for the Bengals are good football players.  Jordan Poyer and Micah Hyde are good football players. (unfortunately Poyer is beaten up at this point.)  We need more good football players around Josh Allen to contend for a Super Bowl.

[Thurman#1]

20 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

He's played 5 full years. Whatever ceiling he has, we've seen it.   Fletcher was a better all around LB with superior instincts. 

 

 

We've seen his ceiling? He's a guy who's gotten better consistently, including a major jump again this year. He's 24 years old. There is zero reason to think we've seen his ceiling.

[Snappysnackcakes]

Shane Conlan over Edmunds. Fletcher over Conlan. 

[Thurman#1]

20 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Ironically when Fletcher was here he was the whipping boy like Edmunds has been here.  I loved Fletcher, but the irrational nonsense around here was almost the same as Edmunds. As the leader in tackles, all anyone here said over and over was that it didn’t matter, Fletcher made the tackles too far downfield because he sucks so he has to go.  
 

All he did was go on to KEEP being one of the best LBs in the game for a long time.  Bills would go on to have crappier play at LB for a long time.  
 

Posters here were as wrong about Fletcher sucking as they are about Edmunds sucking.  
 

Im totally fine not resigning Edmunds for cap reasons, but he definitely doesn’t suck and he’s been better than the over exaggeration of his detractors around here claim.  
 

I wish him well in his next destination and I have a feeling he’s going to have continued and maybe even greater success elsewhere.  

 

 

 

Yes, precisely.

 

 

[Paup 1995MVP]

3 hours ago, SoMAn said:

Edmunds and his value as a Bills’ LB is polarizing.

Serious question with no agenda- what games did Edmunds miss that were impacted negatively by his absence? 

I don’t know the answer but am sure some of you do.  
I’m aware that AJ Klein and others have filled his role occasionally, but don’t recall a highly measurable drop off in defensive production.  Was there? 

Here’s another way to ask the original question: would you rather have Edmunds or a carbon copy of Milano playing along side Milano? 

Thats an interesting question.  I love Milano's game.  I would take another Milano in a heartbeat.  So what how tall Edmunds is.  He can't cover Travis Kelce who is the same size.  

 

And for that matter AJ Klein is way more instinctual on the field then Edmunds is.  He has lasted over 10 years in the league.  He just does not have athleticism that Edmunds has.  

 

I don't hate Edmunds.  He was a lot better last season.  I just would not pay him big money, because he is not a special player is all.  To make big money you should dominate every week.

[Don Otreply]

I’m thinking I’d rather have Bruce Smith in his prime, and the runner up isn’t even close, 

[Thurman#1]

Just now, Paup 1995MVP said:

Thats an interesting question.  I love Milano's game.  I would take another Milano in a heartbeat.  So what how tall Edmunds is.  He can't cover Travis Kelce who is the same size.  

 

And for that matter AJ Klein is way more instinctual on the field then Edmunds is.  He has lasted over 10 years in the league.  He just does not have athleticism that Edmunds has.  

 

I don't hate Edmunds.  He was a lot better last season.  I just would not pay him big money, because he is not a special player is all.  To make big money you should dominate every week.

 

 

AJ Klein isn't half the LB that Edmunds is. Not a third. 

 

And the idea that you should dominate every week to make big money is nonsense. Everyone has bad games. Everyone. Edmunds has very few, but he does have them. Again, everyone does.

 

Believe it or not, the idea that if someone is not a special player you shouldn't pay him big money does not originate with you.

 

And it shows how wrong you are. There are teams dying to pay him money. Because he is special. Perhaps not in the way that you and many want. But that rush to pay him shows precisely that he is special, if you couldn't get that just from the Minnesota game.

2 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

I’m thinking I’d rather have Bruce Smith in his prime, and the runner up isn’t even close, 

 

 

Oh, yes, please. Would anybody not?  I suspect that's why he's not on the ballot.

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

15 hours ago, Success said:

 

A "terrible" LB?

 

He is one of the top FA's out there right now. Opposing fans have a much higher estimation of him than some here.

 

That’s easy to do when you don’t watch him week in and week out 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

What you've got there is wishful thinking. And imprecise thinking. The reality is that it could easily go either way.

 

What could go either way, dumpster-diving?

 

Yeah, I suppose there's always that chance that someone tossed a treasure chest full of gold & diamonds.  

 

So from that angle I suppose you're right.  

 

I'll book my airfare & hotel ressies right now.

 

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Virgil, if he really didn't make big plays, why do so many GMs want him so bad?

 

Sorry, man, that argument has never made a bit of sense.

 

His big plays aren't as visible or as exciting as some, and many can't get past this. But all you have to know is how very much better the D is when he's out there. There's a reason for that, and the reason is that he's affecting play, particularly in the pass game, all the damn time, making the QB's decisions a lot harder consistently.

 

Go back and look at the Minnesota game. He played the first half and was out for the second. That was the only difference in personnel, but our D looks like two completely different groups, and the one on the field when Edmunds was out was vastly worse.

 

Again, #4 against the pass when he was playing this year, and #27 when he was not. That is a guy who is affecting play a great deal, even if it's not in an obvious, visible way.

Edmunds played against KC and Cinci and it made no difference.  He is worthless against the run and he is not as important against the pass as you think. 

I'm kind of tired of arguing about him. Hopefully he is gone in a week and we can all move on. Hope we sign Bobby Wagner. 

 

[MarkyMannn]

46 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

I’m thinking I’d rather have Bruce Smith in his prime, and the runner up isn’t even close, 

Yeah Bruce with Cornelius Bennett

Edited March 12, 2023 by MarkyMannn

[T master]

Hands down Fletcher the dude was a tackling machine & should go in the HOF in my mind which well it works in my world and that's all that matters 😂 .

[Bob in STL]

22 hours ago, TC in St. Louis said:

Just wondering.  If everybody played with the passion of London Fletcher, this would be a different game.  

 

I loved watching him when he was here in St. Louis, and was thrilled he went to our team.  

 

But there's something about Edmunds.  I hope he stays.  I don't care what he gets paid.  

Mixing eras is always tricky.
 

Fletcher in his prime was a more impactful player.  However he could not play LB in the Bills defense today as well as Edmunds.  

 

Edmunds will be gone.  Beane will spend either cap room or draft capital that should otherwise go to WR/OL to try to replace him. Most likely whoever we get will fall short of replacing him if we play the same defense. 
 

The Bills have many question marks going into the next seasons. More than they have had in several years. 

[Beast]

22 hours ago, julian said:

Fletcher, I’m not sure there’s a realistic argument to be made for Edmunds in this scenario.

Here’s your realistic argument….

 

London Fletcher couldn’t hold Edmunds jock in pass coverage and today’s game is a hell of a lot more about stopping the pass than it was 20 years ago.

 

Regardless, like Fletcher, Edmunds is about to be a former Buffalo Bill.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Beast

[Bob in STL]

2 hours ago, BearNorth said:

If you are talking Middle Linebackers, and teams with great records, + wins in the playoffs your options are:

 

1964-5 - Harry Jacobs

1981 [3-4] Jim Haslett, Shane Nelson

1988 [3-4] Shane Conlan, Ray Bentley

1990-92 [3-4] Shane Conlan, Carlton Bailey

1993 [3-4] Mark Maddox, Marvcus Patton

1995 [3-4] Marlo Perry, 'biscuit [age 30 last year with Bills]

2020-2022 [4-3] Edmunds

 

Not exactly a position of strength over the years for this franchise

 

What?  Great data even though you skipped Fletcher, after him the cupboard was bare until Edmonds.  
 

Jacobs, Haslett, Nelson, Conlan, Fletcher and Edmonds were all very good. 
 

 

[Punching Bag]

Very hard to judge since we have not seen Edmunds in his Prime yet.