Im convinced its coaching (Chiefs showing how to handle Bengals)

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

It doesn't make sense. 

 

The idea is to force the QB to throw to a WR in front of the sticks, and then the defense rallies to the ballcatcher and makes a tackle before the receiver crosses the first down yardline.

 

Everything has to go right, including not missing the tackle, not letting the receiver fall forward, not slipping, not anything. 

 

Best case scenario is it forces 4th and 1, which they probably go for (and get) anyway.

Bad call.

 

crazy thing is they held them to a FG anyways. 

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, Patrick Duffy said:

 

100% agreed regarding Frazier. Speaking for myself, I'm one of those that wanted him gone after the 13 seconds embarrassment and now when looking at yet another poor defensive playoff performance I just don't see a justified scenario in him staying at this point. 

 

As for Dorsey, it's some posters saying "it's his 1st year at OC and feel he should improve in 2nd year", I'm not in that particular crowd myself. The stats people can throw those numbers around all they want, but there's a bit more to the picture. I didn't see very much from Dorsey (particular back half of the season) that gave me any confidence that it will be better next year.

 

In any event, at the very least Frazier should be done imo

You are so correct here. It's almost like waiting for a slow failure to happen again. 

[Billever76]

20 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

Not totally sure about that one. I remember his HC in college complaining because Allen wasn’t throwing to the intended receiver. Allen’s response was something like “Brett Favre throws TDs, coach.” For all we know Dorsey is encouraging Allen to take the short stuff, but Josh isn’t doing it. Since none of us are in these meetings we can only speculate either way. 

We have gave Allen a 26th ranked oline and no wr2 opposite diggs.....look at burrow oline last night?...as bad as that oline has been made out to be it still finished better than Bills oline and Allen doesn't have a Higgins and boyd opposite diggs lol....we have a problem and it's BC the Defense has taken too much from the offense

5 minutes ago, Since1981 said:

AGREE! Coaches

O: Pat could barely freakin walk and KC took it (without key WR)

D :  KC DBs right on the line with WR 

 

sad. Dorsey just walked Allen into backyard off schedule stuff. Frazier bend D. 

At the end of the day all that falls on the Boss.....wonder who that is?..do you know who runs this ship?

[Chaos]

Specific coaching question.  Do the Bills seem more predictable than other teams? More importantly is there any statistical way to measure predictability? 

[Nextmanup]

6 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Specific coaching question.  Do the Bills seem more predictable than other teams? More importantly is there any statistical way to measure predictability? 

On defense we run the same scheme something like 80 or 90% of the time...you can look that up.

 

There have been several comments made by opposing players this year, on offense and defense, saying "We knew just what they were going to do and they did it.  We studied it all week on film."

 

 

[Brand J]

1 hour ago, Billever76 said:

We have gave Allen a 26th ranked oline and no wr2 opposite diggs.....look at burrow oline last night?...as bad as that oline has been made out to be it still finished better than Bills oline and Allen doesn't have a Higgins and boyd opposite diggs lol....we have a problem and it's BC the Defense has taken too much from the offense

At the end of the day all that falls on the Boss.....wonder who that is?..do you know who runs this ship?

What does that have to do with Allen not taking what’s available? Or the speculation he isn’t being coached to do so?

[Pirate Angel]

21 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Dont want to get a ban for comparing our team to the teams playing in the GDT so I am putting it here.  Im totally convinced its coaching.  KC its killing that Oline.  Their players arent better than ours.  Jones is a beast but really nobodies outside of that.  The difference is how they actually play the receivers tight and not 10 yards off and back up at the snap.  Burrow cant throw quick because it aint there for free.

 

Same story on offense. Allen may not be Mahomes but he is elite.  Their offensive design and coaching is second to none.  I feel like Dorsey is just backyard football.  A lot of people say "Josh wont take the underneath stuff."  I believe he would if he was coached to and the plays were designed to.  

Yeah Andy Reids are hard to find if there was another one available we would probably consider it. 

[Simon Says]

'Handle"? it was a last second FG

[JerseyBills]

5 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

Not having Jones or Miller vs Bengals (or any other top 10 team) was the kiss of death.  Basically took the D line straight back to 2021.   Too light and too slow.   Beane fixed the problem, but the guys couldn't stay on the field. 

 

Just draft well and play it back next year.   I'd like to see how the Bills actually do with the lack of injuries KC and Philly enjoyed this past season.  

Totally agree. I didn't even know Jones was injured til midway through the first.

 

Also Hyde. A rusty Tre , a banged up Poyer. 4/5 of them are all Pros. We'll be fine just need a good draft and some mid tier FA hits like Jones

[PauleeeWalnuts]

21 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Dont want to get a ban for comparing our team to the teams playing in the GDT so I am putting it here.  Im totally convinced its coaching.  KC its killing that Oline.  Their players arent better than ours.  Jones is a beast but really nobodies outside of that.  The difference is how they actually play the receivers tight and not 10 yards off and back up at the snap.  Burrow cant throw quick because it aint there for free.

 

Same story on offense. Allen may not be Mahomes but he is elite.  Their offensive design and coaching is second to none.  I feel like Dorsey is just backyard football.  A lot of people say "Josh wont take the underneath stuff."  I believe he would if he was coached to and the plays were designed to.  

It’s coaching, philosophy, drafting, hitting on FA and playing to your best players strengths. We rarely do any of those right 

[finn]

22 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Allen may not be Mahomes but he is elite.  

Just wanted to ask you about this comment, which I hear more and more on this board. Why do you think Mahomes is better than a guy who is bigger, faster, stronger, and a far better runner--and can make every throw Mahomes can make? Is it the, what, two more interceptions Allen has? I know it's not about clutch play, not with Mahomes ending KC's season last year, as well as this year's game against the Bills, with an interception. Maybe he's equal to Allen, but better?

[OldTimer1960]

21 hours ago, TheBrownBear said:

I agree.  Nice job building a team culture and getting the ship turned around, but I have serious doubts about our coordinators moving forward.  I have very little excitement about 2023 with Dorsey and Frazier running the show.  At least Dorsey is young, so maybe he digs through thousands of hours of film of successful, innovative offenses over the next few months and starts to incorporate that into his system and playcalling.  What you see is what you get with Frazier at this point.

The team was 13-3 with a ton of inuries - particularly the secondary - they lost a home game to a blizzard, they had travel disrupted by another blizzard, had several games where Allen’s elbow wasn’t fully right and had a player literally dead on the field.  
 

I am not saying they are perfect.  I am not saying that they should just stand pat.  I AM saying:

1. They went 13-3 in a very difficult season, in a very difficult division

2. There are other excellent teams in the league, too.  It isn’t hyperbole to say that there were at least 8 teams on their level in terms of talent and some were subjectively more talented.

 

This is a very well run organization, but there are other well run organizations in the league, too.

[Dr. Who]

Just now, finn said:

Just wanted to ask you about this comment, which I hear more and more on this board. Why do you think Mahomes is better than a guy who is bigger, faster, stronger, and a far better runner--and can make every throw Mahomes can make? Is it the, what, two more interceptions Allen has? I know it's not about clutch play, not with Mahomes ending KC's season last year, as well as this year's game against the Bills, with an interception. Maybe he's equal to Allen, but better?

That judgment is probably largely based on post-season success. Let's see what Josh can do with a genuinely solid oline and an innovative offensive mind calling the plays. I think he's every bit as good as Mahomes, though he falls into some bad habits when he is asked to carry the team with a porous oline and decent, but not exceptional weapons (outside of Diggs) at his disposal.

[OldTimer1960]

18 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Totally agree. I didn't even know Jones was injured til midway through the first.

 

Also Hyde. A rusty Tre , a banged up Poyer. 4/5 of them are all Pros. We'll be fine just need a good draft and some mid tier FA hits like Jones

Well, that is really the only real option because they don’t have cap room to bring in any significant FAs.  Mid-tier FAs may be a pipe dream.

[kota]

The bills were so worried that they would get beat deep like they did alot all season that they let the underneath stuff happen.  This is why the safeties coach got fired.  The bengals seemed to know this and played better chess.  Schemes only get you so far at some point you have to trust your players to make plays.

[LABILLBACKER]

22 hours ago, Steptide said:

I've thought for a while this season that Allen was alot more disciplined under daboll, where as i feel Dorsey kinda let him do what he wanted. Need to get back to the disciplined style of football (to an extent) 

That's exactly what happened. Ken let him do what Josh wanted and it was intoxicating to him. He didn't have Dabs there to show him the value of checkdowns and getting 1st downs. I lost track at how many times it was 3rd & short and we went deep.  It's like "Cocaine Favre" the movie.

[Billever76]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

What does that have to do with Allen not taking what’s available? Or the speculation he isn’t being coached to do so?

Oline has everything to do with it....no qb does well without a good oline in the playoffs...

[C.Biscuit97]

Pat Mahomes is the current goat. Not a great defense, bum ankle, a bunch of number 3 at best wrs (Kelce is a goat as well), and no running game. Every other qb is a level down from him. Allen and Burrow almost got there but still need to level up. 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Pat Mahomes is the current goat. Not a great defense, bum ankle, a bunch of number 3 at best wrs (Kelce is a goat as well), and no running game. Every other qb is a level down from him. Allen and Burrow almost got there but still need to level up. 

Chris Jones doesn't hurt either. Dude is one of the more dominant players.

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Chris Jones doesn't hurt either. Dude is one of the more dominant players.

Oh for sure. That was the difference between their d line pressuring Burrow and ours. Weirdly though, those were his first 2 sacks in 14 postseason games which is wild.  But Jones was huge.

[T master]

23 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Dont want to get a ban for comparing our team to the teams playing in the GDT so I am putting it here.  Im totally convinced its coaching.  KC its killing that Oline.  Their players arent better than ours.  Jones is a beast but really nobodies outside of that.  The difference is how they actually play the receivers tight and not 10 yards off and back up at the snap.  Burrow cant throw quick because it aint there for free.

 

Same story on offense. Allen may not be Mahomes but he is elite.  Their offensive design and coaching is second to none.  I feel like Dorsey is just backyard football.  A lot of people say "Josh wont take the underneath stuff."  I believe he would if he was coached to and the plays were designed to.  

 

So then with the same coaches that we have if the Chiefs traded us even up Chris Jones, for Ed O, and or Pacheco for Motor or some others even trade you think the Bills would still be the same ?

 

Yes i think we can be more aggressive in some of our coaching schemes for sure but i think players and their individual talent has quite a bit to do with it .

 

I think if Jordan Phillips & Poyer were 100% healthy & Von along with Hyde were on the field the bengals game would have been different .

 

I'm not saying your wrong but it's not totally on just the coaches ! So you are advocating firing someone then i take it ?

[jethro_tull]

23 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Dont want to get a ban for comparing our team to the teams playing in the GDT so I am putting it here.  Im totally convinced its coaching.  KC its killing that Oline.  Their players arent better than ours.  Jones is a beast but really nobodies outside of that.  The difference is how they actually play the receivers tight and not 10 yards off and back up at the snap.  Burrow cant throw quick because it aint there for free.

 

Same story on offense. Allen may not be Mahomes but he is elite.  Their offensive design and coaching is second to none.  I feel like Dorsey is just backyard football.  A lot of people say "Josh wont take the underneath stuff."  I believe he would if he was coached to and the plays were designed to.  

coaching is a big part of the team's record but it is more complicated than that.  too many moving parts.  

[Boatdrinks]

45 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Oh for sure. That was the difference between their d line pressuring Burrow and ours. Weirdly though, those were his first 2 sacks in 14 postseason games which is wild.  But Jones was huge.

Was huge , but not the difference in the game imo. 

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, finn said:

Just wanted to ask you about this comment, which I hear more and more on this board. Why do you think Mahomes is better than a guy who is bigger, faster, stronger, and a far better runner--and can make every throw Mahomes can make? Is it the, what, two more interceptions Allen has? I know it's not about clutch play, not with Mahomes ending KC's season last year, as well as this year's game against the Bills, with an interception. Maybe he's equal to Allen, but better?

 

The best way I can answer this is my own personal view...

 

I think that its dumb to try and say "this QB is better" "that QB is better" etc.  I personally put them in tiers and view them as equals.  I think Allen and Mahomes are in the same tier.  They are both elite.  Doesnt matter which one someone thinks is better. 

 

They do things in their own ways and have different styles.  For instance, Mahomes may read the field better and hit those short passes more accurately.  Allen can hit any throw on the field from anywhere on the field and even on the run. 

 

At the end of the day, I think they are so close that it doesnt matter.  Put Allen on that KC team instead of Mahomes and I believe they still go to the SBs.  

 

When I said "Allen may not be Mahomes but..."  I more meant it in the sense that the style of play is different, not that I think Mahomes is better or worse.  They are both elite and likely both going to the HoF someday.

[newcam2012]

2 hours ago, finn said:

Just wanted to ask you about this comment, which I hear more and more on this board. Why do you think Mahomes is better than a guy who is bigger, faster, stronger, and a far better runner--and can make every throw Mahomes can make? Is it the, what, two more interceptions Allen has? I know it's not about clutch play, not with Mahomes ending KC's season last year, as well as this year's game against the Bills, with an interception. Maybe he's equal to Allen, but better?

It's a results orientated league. Rings and Super Bowl appearence count. Mahomes has the ring and has led his team to Super Bowls. Sure its not all him and its avteam sport. However. QBs like Mahomes and Allen will always get the glory. Until Allen gets a ring Mahomes will alwaus be viewed by most as being better. Might not be correct but it's the truth. Mahomes is a winner. What has Allen won? Not even a AFC title game. 

 

Your thinking is in the minority. Physical traits are great but those are the only assets that make QBs great. See Drew B as an example. I'd but Burrow in that category too. 

[Brand J]

1 hour ago, Billever76 said:

Oline has everything to do with it....no qb does well without a good oline in the playoffs...

No one argued that the OL needs to be improved. Of course a QB needs protection. If you’re insinuating that Allen isn’t throwing to the shorter options because his OL isn’t giving him protection, then I disagree. 

[Brand J]

9 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

It's a results orientated league. Rings and Super Bowl appearence count. Mahomes has the ring and has led his team to Super Bowls. Sure its not all him and its avteam sport. However. QBs like Mahomes and Allen will always get the glory. Until Allen gets a ring Mahomes will alwaus be viewed by most as being better. Might not be correct but it's the truth. Mahomes is a winner. What has Allen won? Not even a AFC title game. 

 

Your thinking is in the minority. Physical traits are great but those are the only assets that make QBs great. See Drew B as an example. I'd but Burrow in that category too. 

It’s also consistency. Someone posted Allen’s 3 lowest QBRs from the season and posted Mahomes and Burrows for comparison’s sake. Allen was far behind the other two, meaning when he’s been bad, he's been really bad. Of course it isn’t all on him, doesn’t help when his receivers are dropping passes, or when Saffold is allowing pressure in less than a second, but it is what it is. Allen’s ceiling is as high as any QB in the league, but his floor is lower than the other two and needs to be raised.

[UKBillFan]

3 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

No one argued that the OL needs to be improved. Of course a QB needs protection. If you’re insinuating that Allen isn’t throwing to the shorter options because his OL isn’t giving him protection, then I disagree. 

I think you’re both right in a way. A dodgy O Line shouldn’t mean short routes are missed. Indeed, they should be the go to as they are safer and quicker options. But that’s for pocket passers, who prefer to stay out and throw. Josh is someone who likes to elongate plays, and try and get the best result for the team. He is unusually good at escaping pressure but, by this time, his default is to look deep. He looks towards the end zone rather than short field. If the O Line held up, as it did pre bye, it’d open up more of the field for Josh to exploit.

[UKBillFan]

2 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

It’s also consistency. Someone posted Allen’s 3 lowest QBRs from the season and posted Mahomes and Burrows for comparison’s sake. Allen was far behind the other two, meaning when he’s been bad, he's been really bad. Of course it isn’t all on him, doesn’t help when his receivers are dropping passes, or when Saffold is allowing pressure in less than a second, but it is what it is. Allen’s ceiling is as high as any QB in the league, but his floor is lower than the other two and needs to be raised.

Mahomes’ lowest: 35.6 (vs SEA); 56.0 (vs BUF); 63.2 (vs LVR) - overall regular season average 77.5

Josh’s lowest: 44.7 (at CHI); 49.5 (vs NYJ); 54.2 (at MIA) - overall regular season average 71.4

Burrow’s lowest: 18.7 (at CLE);  24.1 (vs BAL); 32.7 (at BAL) - overall regular season average 58.6

 

Josh did record a rating of 26.0 in the Wildcard round. Mahomes’ lowest to date was 67.2 yesterday; Burrow’s 43.6 vs BAL.

 

I generally agree with your point about ceiling and floor but Josh’s lowest ratings are it massively different to Mahomes and better than Burrow’s.

[FeelingOnYouboty]

We will never win a Super Bowl playing off coverage like the Bills do. 
 

:13 seconds should’ve been enough to learn that lesson and then that horrible Bengals scheme. Meanwhile the Chiefs man up and their piss poor defense show more guts than our supposed top defense. Depressing!

[C.Biscuit97]

28 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

The best way I can answer this is my own personal view...

 

I think that its dumb to try and say "this QB is better" "that QB is better" etc.  I personally put them in tiers and view them as equals.  I think Allen and Mahomes are in the same tier.  They are both elite.  Doesnt matter which one someone thinks is better. 

 

They do things in their own ways and have different styles.  For instance, Mahomes may read the field better and hit those short passes more accurately.  Allen can hit any throw on the field from anywhere on the field and even on the run. 

 

At the end of the day, I think they are so close that it doesnt matter.  Put Allen on that KC team instead of Mahomes and I believe they still go to the SBs.  

 

When I said "Allen may not be Mahomes but..."  I more meant it in the sense that the style of play is different, not that I think Mahomes is better or worse.  They are both elite and likely both going to the HoF someday.

Allen is awesome. So is Burrow. But at this point, if they traded Diggs and Chase, do you think they have a drop off? Because Mahomes had the best year of his career and is going to the SB.  And he has the worst defense out of the third of them. 
 

mahomes is already an all time great and those guys are a notch below. Hopefully, Allen gets there but this year showed there’s a bigger gap than we thought.

[Simon]

2 hours ago, finn said:

Just wanted to ask you about this comment, which I hear more and more on this board. Why do you think Mahomes is better than a guy who is bigger, faster, stronger, and a far better runner--and can make every throw Mahomes can make? Is it the, what, two more interceptions Allen has? I know it's not about clutch play, not with Mahomes ending KC's season last year, as well as this year's game against the Bills, with an interception. Maybe he's equal to Allen, but better?

 

Mahomes sees the whole field better than anybody else in the world right now.

[Brand J]

9 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

Mahomes’ lowest: 35.6 (vs SEA); 56.0 (vs BUF); 63.2 (vs LVR) - overall regular season average 77.5

Josh’s lowest: 44.7 (at CHI); 49.5 (vs NYJ); 54.2 (at MIA) - overall regular season average 71.4

Burrow’s lowest: 18.7 (at CLE);  24.1 (vs BAL); 32.7 (at BAL) - overall regular season average 58.6

 

Josh did record a rating of 26.0 in the Wildcard round. Mahomes’ lowest to date was 67.2 yesterday; Burrow’s 43.6 vs BAL.

 

I generally agree with your point about ceiling and floor but Josh’s lowest ratings are it massively different to Mahomes and better than Burrow’s.

Odd because those weren’t the numbers that person had posted! Also odd that Mahomes would have a QBR of 35 vs Seattle with a 106.8 rating and a 68 against LV with a rating of 110. I know QBR takes into account actual game play more than the stats, but I don’t know how they reached those statistics. Perhaps it was rating, not QBR, that person had posted. 
 

EDIT: Burrow had a 96 rating to go with his 18 QBR and Josh had a 46.8 rating to go with his 63.9 QBR, so I’m assuming it was the ratings that were posted. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by JayBaller10

[UKBillFan]

4 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

Odd because those weren’t the numbers that person had posted! Also odd that Mahomes would have a QBR of 35 vs Seattle with a 106.8 rating and a 68 against LV with a rating of 110. I know QBR takes into account actual game play more than the stats, but I don’t know how they reached those statistics. Perhaps it was rating, not QBR, that person had posted. 

Had a quick look at passer rating - there is a greater discrepancy there. But have to bear in mind Josh was playing for the bulk of the season with a bad elbow and Buffalo were one of the top teams, if not top, for dropped catches this year.

Edited January 31, 2023 by UKBillFan

[Brand J]

3 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

Had a quick look at passer rating - there is a greater discrepancy there. But have to bear in mind Josh was playing for the bulk of the season with a bad elbow and Buffalo were one of the top teams, if not top, for dropped catches this year.

The elbow was an issue for sure, but it was halftime of that Packers game where he started to look like a different QB. The game that next week against the Jets was extremely rough long before he injured the elbow. And then the MIN game… nevermind. Anyway, the elbow hindered his arm, but he was still making questionable decisions, pre and post injury. The Packers game is seemingly where it started to derail and he never fully recaptured the magic from earlier in the year IMO. All QBs have drops, but yes, Josh had some brutal ones.

[Since1981]

No joke here. Seriously. 
Can you name 2-3 on field, innovative things Bills have done in the past year?

 

Low % of punts on 4th down?

high % nickel defense?

high % QB rush 800 yds?

 

Anything?

Edited January 31, 2023 by Since1981

[Chaos]

Just now, Since1981 said:

No joke here. Seriously. 
Can you name 2-3 on field, innovative things Bills have done in the past year?

 

Low % of punts on 4th down?

high % nickel defense?

 

Anything?

Dawson Knox hard count was innovative. 

[ArtVandalay]

11 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

 

Never seen this breakdown.  Beyond infuriating and completely inexcusable.  Unreal 

The coaching of this team is so horrible.

 

There's a difference between building a culture, assembling talent and scheme/gameplanning. We severely lack in the latter, so much behind other contenders in the league. 

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Pat Mahomes is the current goat. Not a great defense, bum ankle, a bunch of number 3 at best wrs (Kelce is a goat as well), and no running game. Every other qb is a level down from him. Allen and Burrow almost got there but still need to level up. 

 

His not great defense held the Bengals to 20 points and carried him to victory after he personally made big mistakes on several drives in the 2nd half. His #3 WRs and no running game didn't stop Chad Henne from learning a 98 yard TD drive a week before. Sorry but the support system around him is much better. Allen has to play perfect for the Bills to have a chance against good opponents. Mahomes can leave the game for a quarter or singlehandedly cost his team 3 consecutive drives in the 2nd half and still end up the victor. Not taking anything away from his greatness. But greatness still needs support from time to time.

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by HappyDays

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

It’s also consistency. Someone posted Allen’s 3 lowest QBRs from the season and posted Mahomes and Burrows for comparison’s sake. Allen was far behind the other two, meaning when he’s been bad, he's been really bad. Of course it isn’t all on him, doesn’t help when his receivers are dropping passes, or when Saffold is allowing pressure in less than a second, but it is what it is. Allen’s ceiling is as high as any QB in the league, but his floor is lower than the other two and needs to be raised.

You just answered your previous question to why Mahomes is better in most people's eyes.