Seriously, how complicated is our offense

[Scott7975]

Is our offense that complicated that a 5 year vet cant get some plays?  This is one thing I dont like about our coaches.  They dont trust anyone to play football and have to coddle everyone.

 

 

Teams around the league had players make plays after only being on the team for like 4 days.  Not our team though.  Our team needs rookies to get close to the end of their rookie contract before they see the field unless out of necessity.  Our team wont have Hines ready until next year.  

[LeGOATski]

1 hour ago, Process said:

Hines won't be on the team next year. We are not paying a punt returner $5M.

 

Regarding this year, we aren't using him because of our coaches typical stubbornness that you pointed out and also because we had zero need for him, and the trade made no sense considering the offense we run.

I agree it's weird it takes so long for new players to contribute, but Hines definitely fits the offense as a speedy pass catching back. It definitely made sense. I assume they'll be trying to adjust his contract, or else it's him and Cook as the starting running backs next year, probably with a draft pick.

[Buffalo Junction]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

Is our offense that complicated that a 5 year vet cant get some plays?  This is one thing I dont like about our coaches.  They dont trust anyone to play football and have to coddle everyone.

 

 

Teams around the league had players make plays after only being on the team for like 4 days.  Not our team though.  Our team needs rookies to get close to the end of their rookie contract before they see the field unless out of necessity.  Our team wont have Hines ready until next year.  

IDK, but there have certainly been points in games this year where it looks like guys who’ve been on the team don’t know their assignments.

[Scott7975]

16 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

I agree it's weird it takes so long for new players to contribute, but Hines definitely fits the offense as a speedy pass catching back. It definitely made sense. I assume they'll be trying to adjust his contract, or else it's him and Cook as the starting running backs next year, probably with a draft pick.

 

Oh yeah, Im not saying he dont fit.  What I am getting at is it shouldnt be this complicated to work him into the offense. They spend the off season looking for a pass catching back.  They got Cook in the draft.  Rarely use him.  They get Hines and after two weeks havent really used him.  Meanwhile other teams made trades and those players have made plays for their teams 4 days later.

 

I really dont believe we have dummies for players.  I also dont believe that our system is so complex that a rookie running back after rookie camp, training camp, and 9 weeks into the season... and a vet running back dont understand it enough to be involved outside of just a few plays.  It just doesnt make sense.  The other thing of note is they also spent the off season trying to pick up another good TE.  So it seemed as if TE would be a point of emphasis in our offense as well as pass catching back.  We have a TE that made a lot of good plays last season but hardly any this season.  So now two points of emphasis for our offense in the off season are not utilized hardly ever thus far.

 

These are the types of things that make me think Dorsey isnt doing good enough job.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Scott7975

[LeGOATski]

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Oh yeah, Im not saying he dont fit.  What I am getting at is it shouldnt be this complicated to work him into the offense. They spend the off season looking for a pass catching back.  They got Cook in the draft.  Rarely use him.  They get Hines and after two weeks havent really used him.  Meanwhile other teams made trades and those players have made plays for their teams 4 days later.

 

I really dont believe we have dummies for players.  I also dont believe that our system is so complex that a rookie running back and a vet running back dont understand it enough to be involved outside of just a few plays.  It just doesnt make sense.  The other thing of note is they also spent the off season trying to pick up another good TE.  So it seemed as if TE would be a point of emphasis in our offense as well as pass catching back.  We have a TE that made a lot of good plays last season but hardly any this season.  So now two points of emphasis for our offense in the off season are not utilized hardly ever thus far.

 

These are the types of things that make me think Dorsey isnt doing good enough job.

With the lack of threats at WR behind Diggs, it made sense that Knox would be used more. It's puzzling. Getting an explosive player like Hines involved shouldn't be a big ask, either. I think the Bills need these guys to step up now and Dorsey has to get creative in using them.

[Scott7975]

11 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

IDK, but there have certainly been points in games this year where it looks like guys who’ve been on the team don’t know their assignments.

 

True there does seem to be miscomunications here and there but when I hear Peterson say that he knew what play we were running and where Josh was going to go with the ball just based off our formation... it leads me to believe our O is not that complex.  The dude spent less than a week watching Bills film and can say that.

1 minute ago, LeGOATski said:

With the lack of threats at WR behind Diggs, it made sense that Knox would be used more. It's puzzling. Getting an explosive player like Hines involved shouldn't be a big ask, either. I think the Bills need these guys to step up now and Dorsey has to get creative in using them.

 

Exactly.

[LeGOATski]

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

Exactly.

I have faith they'll figure it out and the offense will be rolling into the playoffs. That's been the trend the last 2 years. It's arguably just as much on Josh as it is Dorsey.

[Scott7975]

3 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

I have faith they'll figure it out and the offense will be rolling into the playoffs. That's been the trend the last 2 years. It's arguably just as much on Josh as it is Dorsey.

 

Yeah, I think they will figure it out.  I think that Josh will chill on the turnovers too.  It just doesnt make sense that our potentially two most explosive players pretty much ride the bench because they supposedly cant figure out our offense.

[Doc Brown]

It just feels like an offense who is still trying to find out its identity and they're trying too much at once.  From the outside looking in I'd just simplify it for a game.  Make Shakir the primary slot guy and have McKenzie be the gadget guy who takes maybe 25% or so of the snaps in the slot. 

 

As for running backs not named special teams ace Taiwan Jones, I'd only dress Singletary (RB 1A), Hines (RB 1B/punt returner), and Duke Johnson (backup/kick returner).  Make Cook a healthy scratch.  

 

Our offense is still pretty fricken good but inexcusable mental lapses is why we're not 9-0 right now.  Our best game was against Pittsburgh where it was mostly just Diggs, Davis, Shakir, and a split between Singletary and Cook.  Just keep it simple stupid is what I'm getting at.

[John from Riverside]

8 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

It just feels like an offense who is still trying to find out its identity and they're trying too much at once.  From the outside looking in I'd just simplify it for a game.  Make Shakir the primary slot guy and have McKenzie be the gadget guy who takes maybe 25% or so of the snaps in the slot. 

 

As for running backs not named special teams ace Taiwan Jones, I'd only dress Singletary (RB 1A), Hines (RB 1B/punt returner), and Duke Johnson (backup/kick returner).  Make Cook a healthy scratch.  

 

Our offense is still pretty fricken good but inexcusable mental lapses is why we're not 9-0 right now.  Our best game was against Pittsburgh where it was mostly just Diggs, Davis, Shakir, and a split between Singletary and Cook.  Just keep it simple stupid is what I'm getting at.

As much as I want to see James Cook continue to grow because it looks like he’s getting better as the season goes on I agree with you just too many running backs in the room splitting Carrie’s how are any of these guys supposed to develop any rhythm

[Doc Brown]

9 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

As much as I want to see James Cook continue to grow because it looks like he’s getting better as the season goes on I agree with you just too many running backs in the room splitting Carrie’s how are any of these guys supposed to develop any rhythm

I wouldn't be surprised if Cook is a healthy scratch as soon as they feel comfortable with Hines as the 1B back.  We made the move for Hines for this year and we don't have time to develop a rookie on the fly.

[Bubba Gump]

I don't get it either. I mean Christian McCaffery ran for a TD, caught a TD and f'n threw for a TD in his first game with SF. Traded players have impacts and play a lot in their first game with their new team. I sometimes think McD out thinks himself. 

[LeGOATski]

15 minutes ago, Bubba Gump said:

I don't get it either. I mean Christian McCaffery ran for a TD, caught a TD and f'n threw for a TD in his first game with SF. Traded players have impacts and play a lot in their first game with their new team. I sometimes think McD out thinks himself. 

And then there's Jeff Wilson Jr. in Miami, but he also went to a very familiar system. James Robinson in NJ got used right away, although not too impactful.

[BobbyC81]

39 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

As much as I want to see James Cook continue to grow because it looks like he’s getting better as the season goes on I agree with you just too many running backs in the room splitting Carrie’s how are any of these guys supposed to develop any rhythm

 

Jeff Wilson got traded from San Francisco to Miami and ran for over 100 yards this past week.

[Southern_Bills]

13 minutes ago, BobbyC81 said:

 

Jeff Wilson got traded from San Francisco to Miami and ran for over 100 yards this past week.

 

In the name of fairness, Mike McDaniel was the OC in San Francisco last year. He basically went to the same offense he left.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

It’s because we didn’t need him. 

[BananaB]

McD is more worried about players making mistakes then putting the guy on the field that can make plays. Hines will be caught up by mid August the way he coddles new additions to the team. 

[CSBill]

6 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Is our offense that complicated that a 5 year vet cant get some plays?  This is one thing I dont like about our coaches.  They dont trust anyone to play football and have to coddle everyone.

 

 

Teams around the league had players make plays after only being on the team for like 4 days.  Not our team though.  Our team needs rookies to get close to the end of their rookie contract before they see the field unless out of necessity.  Our team wont have Hines ready until next year.  

 

I wonder the same thing. Can't you give him specific plays or even special attention in the huddle? Josh to Nyheim: "On this play, you run as fast as you can down the right sidelines and I'll throw it as far as I can, you go catch it. Ready, on three . . ."

[BIGFOOTspaceman]

The offense is pretty vanilla.  There are no creative formations and very little misdirection.  To me it seems like McD and Dorsey want to brutalize the opponent with their execution and talent.  

 

This gets you so only far until there is enough tape on your offense to defend it.  Gotta rememeber....the guys on the other side of the ball are talented too.

[PatsFanNH]

6 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Is our offense that complicated that a 5 year vet cant get some plays?  This is one thing I dont like about our coaches.  They dont trust anyone to play football and have to coddle everyone.

 

 

Teams around the league had players make plays after only being on the team for like 4 days.  Not our team though.  Our team needs rookies to get close to the end of their rookie contract before they see the field unless out of necessity.  Our team wont have Hines ready until next year.  

I saw this for like 20 years! How many veterans came into NE and took either a long time or never ever got it? Heck Ocho Sinco never was able to figure it out.

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

With the lack of threats at WR behind Diggs, it made sense that Knox would be used more. It's puzzling. Getting an explosive player like Hines involved shouldn't be a big ask, either. I think the Bills need these guys to step up now and Dorsey has to get creative in using them.

 

The Davis dissing continues!

 

Where was Hines "explosive"?

[hemma]

I guess Dorsey keeps coming up with game plans (plays) where the newer players are left ‘in the margins’.

Probably gets Beane a little cranky.

[LeGOATski]

8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The Davis dissing continues!

 

Where was Hines "explosive"?

I've loved Davis, honestly. Let's say it's Diggs and him. Knox is still clearly the next best option, but has gotten limited opportunities.

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

With the lack of threats at WR behind Diggs, it made sense that Knox would be used more. It's puzzling. Getting an explosive player like Hines involved shouldn't be a big ask, either. I think the Bills need these guys to step up now and Dorsey has to get creative in using them.

 

On Knox I am absolutely convinced that McDermott and Beane are banging the drum on this point to Dorsey. We have seen them try and design plays for him early in games but then get away from it as the game goes on. I think it is a play calling issue on him specifically. He has had 10 targets in first Quarters this season. Before the two passes on the drive into FG range against the Vikings he was at 10 for the 3rd and 4th Qrtr combined on the season. 

 

It feels to me like every week they are saying "Ken you've got to get Dawson the ball more..." and he goes off and puts two plays for Knox in his scripted first 15 and then forgets all about it. 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

Don’t forget Toney with KC—by game #2 he’s putting up WR2 numbers coming from the Giants. 🙈

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

Hines probably saw tape of our run blocking and the fact that we get zero push and said just keep using Singletary.

[DallasBillsFan1]

The full power of the Buffalo death star has not been fully realized yet.  When all the dots are connected, we will be invincible.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

On Knox I am absolutely convinced that McDermott and Beane are banging the drum on this point to Dorsey. We have seen them try and design plays for him early in games but then get away from it as the game goes on. I think it is a play calling issue on him specifically. He has had 10 targets in first Quarters this season. Before the two passes on the drive into FG range against the Vikings he was at 10 for the 3rd and 4th Qrtr combined on the season. 

 

It feels to me like every week they are saying "Ken you've got to get Dawson the ball more..." and he goes off and puts two plays for Knox in his scripted first 15 and then forgets all about it. 

 

Yep - then he be comes dawson blocks. 

47 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Don’t forget Toney with KC—by game #2 he’s putting up WR2 numbers coming from the Giants. 🙈

 

Yeah, JuJu going out sort of forced their hand and Toney looked fine.  

[Santana]

Honestly it doesn't matter how long it takes RB's to get acquainted in this offense because the Bills don't know how to use them regardless. We've been watching this for like 3 or 4yrs now. 

[Tommy Callahan]

Like madden when somebody jumps out on you running the same plays, then you adapt and they are shot cause they cannot adapt and only have like 4 plays they know how to run.

 

 

[Buffalo Junction]

6 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

True there does seem to be miscomunications here and there but when I hear Peterson say that he knew what play we were running and where Josh was going to go with the ball just based off our formation... it leads me to believe our O is not that complex.  The dude spent less than a week watching Bills film and can say that.

I have the sneaking suspicion that the offense is simultaneously too simple and too complex. It’s as though the play design, pre-snap structure & motion is too simple, which makes everything post snap (reads, option routes, etc) more complex. Couple that with the lack of a dominant run game and teams are able to sit on routes and in zones waiting for Allen to make mistakes. We also have the issue of Knox and the RBs chipping frequently which keeps them from going into motion and/ getting into their routes early.
 

If the RB runs a wheel route or motions outside on that OT INT then Peterson is forced to stay in his zone. Instead it’s a chip and release, Peterson can roam, Allen has to hold the ball, and Davis has to make a choice of whether or not to flatten his route… All the complexity happens post snap because the defense didn’t have to think pre-snap. 

[msw2112]

I think that folks are overreacting to our use or non-use of Hines.  We did not trade a boatload of high round picks for the guy.  We traded a seldom-used backup RB and a late-to-mid round draft pick.  Hines was not a starter in Indy and he's not a starter in Buffalo.  He's a puzzle piece and a weapon that they will use here and there.  He's been used in the return game quite a bit and he's gotten a few snaps on offense.

 

The Bills did not have trouble moving the ball or scoring points on Sunday.  The issue was mistakes and turnovers killing drives.  Giving Hines more snaps probably wouldn't have changed this.

 

The fact that we don't use ANY of our RBs that much is really the issue, not how much or little we use Hines.

[Thurman#1]

9 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Is our offense that complicated that a 5 year vet cant get some plays?  This is one thing I dont like about our coaches.  They dont trust anyone to play football and have to coddle everyone.

 

 

Teams around the league had players make plays after only being on the team for like 4 days.  Not our team though.  Our team needs rookies to get close to the end of their rookie contract before they see the field unless out of necessity.  Our team wont have Hines ready until next year.  

 

 

The purpose of an offense or part of an offense is not to be easy for a new guy to pick up.

 

It's to work well.

 

As we're the #1 offense and the #2 scoring offense, ours does. 

 

If it's easy, that's great. But not necessary. Because other teams do something does not mean that we need to do it.

 

The Erhardt Perkins system for catching passes is what we were running last I knew. And it is indeed complex. "It was developed to maximize efficiency in cold weather."

 

https://baltimoresportsandlife.com/erhardt-perkins-system-part-2/

 

Gee, I wonder why we use it.

 

Don't know offhand whether Hines has used it before.

 

But you don't bring in a guy because you want him to be useful his first two weeks. You want him useful long term. If he can do it his first two weeks, that's a nice bonus. But simply not important in the long run.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

10 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Is our offense that complicated that a 5 year vet cant get some plays?  This is one thing I dont like about our coaches.  They dont trust anyone to play football and have to coddle everyone.

 

 

Teams around the league had players make plays after only being on the team for like 4 days.  Not our team though.  Our team needs rookies to get close to the end of their rookie contract before they see the field unless out of necessity.  Our team wont have Hines ready until next year.  

Not that your point is wrong…but someone like Jeff Wilson moved to an extremely similar system in Miami which makes the whole process much easier.  

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

32 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

The purpose of an offense or part of an offense is not to be easy for a new guy to pick up.

 

It's to work well.

 

As we're the #1 offense and the #2 scoring offense, ours does. 

 

If it's easy, that's great. But not necessary. Because other teams do something does not mean that we need to do it.

 

The Erhardt Perkins system for catching passes is what we were running last I knew. And it is indeed complex. "It was developed to maximize efficiency in cold weather."

 

https://baltimoresportsandlife.com/erhardt-perkins-system-part-2/

 

Gee, I wonder why we use it.

 

Don't know offhand whether Hines has used it before.

 

But you don't bring in a guy because you want him to be useful his first two weeks. You want him useful long term. If he can do it his first two weeks, that's a nice bonus. But simply not important in the long run.

This is correct.  Bills use EP system.  Hines comes from Reich's system which is a flavor of the West coast offense.

 

So terminology on even things like how to call a play are completely different.

 

When Josh calls a play, it is like Japanese to Hines so it takes time to understand the new verbiage and the play that Josh is calling.

 

If Hines went to another WC system, he could probably pick it up right away.

[Einstein]

They said during the broadcast that when Hockensen was traded to Minnesota, they put him right in whether he knew the plays or not. They would tell him in the huddle “run to the 30 and turn right”. It’s worked.

[Scott7975]

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The Davis dissing continues!

 

Where was Hines "explosive"?

 

Davis is decent but we need better.  Im not really dissing him but he's not a top receiver.  Hines is very fast and because of that can and has been explosive with the ball.

3 hours ago, DallasBillsFan1 said:

The full power of the Buffalo death star has not been fully realized yet.  When all the dots are connected, we will be invincible.

 

I sure hope so

Edited November 17, 2022 by Scott7975

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, Buffalo Junction said:

I have the sneaking suspicion that the offense is simultaneously too simple and too complex. It’s as though the play design, pre-snap structure & motion is too simple, which makes everything post snap (reads, option routes, etc) more complex. Couple that with the lack of a dominant run game and teams are able to sit on routes and in zones waiting for Allen to make mistakes. We also have the issue of Knox and the RBs chipping frequently which keeps them from going into motion and/ getting into their routes early.
 

If the RB runs a wheel route or motions outside on that OT INT then Peterson is forced to stay in his zone. Instead it’s a chip and release, Peterson can roam, Allen has to hold the ball, and Davis has to make a choice of whether or not to flatten his route… All the complexity happens post snap because the defense didn’t have to think pre-snap. 

 

Yes probably.  I think our formations and play calls are simple.  The complexity part comes post snap where the receivers route changes based on coverage and the QB and receiver both have to read the same thing to know which way the route is run.  I think this is part of where our O might be struggling and this is just my imagination here but Im guessing that defenses know this too and have figured out all our route concepts.  They technically can dictate which route the receiver runs by their own position so they know exactly what a receiver is going to do... making it easier to defend.

[HoofHearted]

2 hours ago, Buffalo Junction said:

If the RB runs a wheel route or motions outside on that OT INT then Peterson is forced to stay in his zone. Instead it’s a chip and release, Peterson can roam, Allen has to hold the ball, and Davis has to make a choice of whether or not to flatten his route… All the complexity happens post snap because the defense didn’t have to think pre-snap. 

This isn't true. Quarters rules have the LB play the wheel of #3. Peterson would have been in the exact same spot regardless of what Singletary did.

16 minutes ago, Einstein said:

They said during the broadcast that when Hockensen was traded to Minnesota, they put him right in whether he knew the plays or not. They would tell him in the huddle “run to the 30 and turn right”. It’s worked.

That's all well and good, but limits you as a play caller. All the choice concepts we have would have to be thrown out the window for instance. RB is a tough spot if they aren't familiar with the offense. You have to learn run schemes and your keys in those, the pass schemes and the option routes incorporated with those, as well as all the protections on top of all the new verbiage. It's a lot of information that has to be known and digested so that these guys can make decisions in a split second.

[Scott7975]

7 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

This isn't true. Quarters rules have the LB play the wheel of #3. Peterson would have been in the exact same spot regardless of what Singletary did.

 

I know we got into it before and sinceraly I appologize for that.  The medication that I take sometimes makes me not myself so I am sorry about that.  I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on our offense. To me it seems like defenses have figured out our concepts as a lot of plays I have been able to look at our guys have pretty sticky coverage.  It also doesnt seem that Dorsey likes to use TE's or pass catching backs very much even though it was a focal point of the off season.  Is this because he isnt using them or more so because our O line is so bad they use them to block more often than they should need to be?  2 of our fastest guys are sitting on the bench.  Is our O really that complex?

Edited November 17, 2022 by Scott7975