Our injuries in the secondary are killing us

[Cray51]

This team is missing its talent in the secondary.  Not having Poyer/Hyde/White for all of or most of the year is hurting our ability to handle top receivers and TEs.

 

Benford is losing guys in zone, and although he is physical he cant stay in man

Jackson doesnt turn his head to the QB, and is holding all over the place

Lewis/Johnson cant take angles to save their lives

 

They caused the first TD, the 4th and 18, and a PI on 3rd and 22 that was a complete lack of awareness.

 

If the Bills can get healthy come playoff time, with White/Poyer/Elam, we have a chance to make a run.  But not with the players on the field right now

[Codyny13]

2 hours ago, Cray51 said:

This team is missing its talent in the secondary.  Not having Poyer/Hyde/White for all of or most of the year is hurting our ability to handle top receivers and TEs.

 

Benford is losing guys in zone, and although he is physical he cant stay in man

Jackson doesnt turn his head to the QB, and is holding all over the place

Lewis/Johnson cant take angles to save their lives

 

They caused the first TD, the 4th and 18, and a PI on 3rd and 22 that was a complete lack of awareness.

 

If the Bills can get healthy come playoff time, with White/Poyer/Elam, we have a chance to make a run.  But not with the players on the field right now

An actual post w/ insight. Agreed. The defense is trying to hold it together w/ an extreme deficit of talent in the defensive backfield. When we don’t get consistent pressure against better teams w elite passing talent, we look like we’re lacking. Fans lose that we’re starting rookies, and backups and still holding it together. Not too many teams are going to look the same when theyre missing 3 former all pros.

[Goin Breakdown]

I'm telling Dad on you.....

[Simon]

Right now they're a bunch of babes in the woods out there running around.

They desperately need some of that veteran leadership back on the field.

[SectionC3]

2 hours ago, Cray51 said:

This team is missing its talent in the secondary.  Not having Poyer/Hyde/White for all of or most of the year is hurting our ability to handle top receivers and TEs.

 

Benford is losing guys in zone, and although he is physical he cant stay in man

Jackson doesnt turn his head to the QB, and is holding all over the place

Lewis/Johnson cant take angles to save their lives

 

They caused the first TD, the 4th and 18, and a PI on 3rd and 22 that was a complete lack of awareness.

 

If the Bills can get healthy come playoff time, with White/Poyer/Elam, we have a chance to make a run.  But not with the players on the field right now

Yes.  This.  Lewis was terrible today.  It’s a huge issue. 

[MPT]

Did Dean Marlowe even play today? The only reason to trade for him would be for these exact situations where we're missing multiple defensive backs. 

[Buffalo Super Fan]

100% this team misses Poyer, Hyde and White badly in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

[JDubya76]

The water is definitely getting a little too deep for the kids. I do think a healthy Elam would have made a difference. Possibly try him in man with help and zone on the other side. Who knows anymore.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

The entire D is much different with Poyer back there. That said, these young guys did okay for like 80% of the game. Recall we were up 27-10, and outside of that first drive, had held Jefferson in check.

 

then, in a very complimentary way, the wheels came off the entire team. 
 

If the O didn’t go 3 and out a bunch, I suspect the last quarter would have looked a lot different. 

[Marvin]

3 hours ago, Cray51 said:

This team is missing its talent in the secondary.  Not having Poyer/Hyde/White for all of or most of the year is hurting our ability to handle top receivers and TEs.

 

Benford is losing guys in zone, and although he is physical he cant stay in man

Jackson doesnt turn his head to the QB, and is holding all over the place

Lewis/Johnson cant take angles to save their lives

 

They caused the first TD, the 4th and 18, and a PI on 3rd and 22 that was a complete lack of awareness.

 

If the Bills can get healthy come playoff time, with White/Poyer/Elam, we have a chance to make a run.  But not with the players on the field right now

Thank you for starting this thread.  A nice, sane analysis.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 hours ago, Cray51 said:

This team is missing its talent in the secondary.  Not having Poyer/Hyde/White for all of or most of the year is hurting our ability to handle top receivers and TEs.

 

Benford is losing guys in zone, and although he is physical he cant stay in man

Jackson doesnt turn his head to the QB, and is holding all over the place

Lewis/Johnson cant take angles to save their lives

 

They caused the first TD, the 4th and 18, and a PI on 3rd and 22 that was a complete lack of awareness.

 

If the Bills can get healthy come playoff time, with White/Poyer/Elam, we have a chance to make a run.  But not with the players on the field right now

These guys are 6th and 7th Rounders and undrafted players. 

[Big Turk]

4 hours ago, Cray51 said:

This team is missing its talent in the secondary.  Not having Poyer/Hyde/White for all of or most of the year is hurting our ability to handle top receivers and TEs.

 

Benford is losing guys in zone, and although he is physical he cant stay in man

Jackson doesnt turn his head to the QB, and is holding all over the place

Lewis/Johnson cant take angles to save their lives

 

They caused the first TD, the 4th and 18, and a PI on 3rd and 22 that was a complete lack of awareness.

 

If the Bills can get healthy come playoff time, with White/Poyer/Elam, we have a chance to make a run.  But not with the players on the field right now

 

They absolutely could make a run with who is on the field now. The offense simply needs to stop turning the ball over in the RZ. That's it.

 

It's not that hard. Wasn't too long ago Allen set an NFL record for most RZ snaps to start a career without an INT.

 

He needs to go back to that mindset.

 

They are facing some adversity. They need to overcome it.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Big Turk

[Reks Ryan]

1 hour ago, MPT said:

Did Dean Marlowe even play today? The only reason to trade for him would be for these exact situations where we're missing multiple defensive backs. 

I really don’t understand why Dean Marlowe and Tre White didn’t play today.  Bills desperately need some experienced secondary players

[US Egg]

Jefferson is an absolute phenom. Julio Jones prime level.

 

He does a number on pretty much all those opposite him.

[BUFFALOTONE]

What is the actual injury to Poyer besides a swollen elbow that’s twice the size apparently? 

[BillsFanForever19]

Last year, not having Tre White killed our chances of getting to the Super Bowl. IMO, with a healthy White - it wouldn't have come down to 13 seconds and OT wouldn't have happened.

 

Eventually we'll get him back, but now Hyde is gone. It would be a struggle without him. But without Hyde AND Poyer? And still not having White back. And Elam hurt? It's just way too much to overcome. Especially when we're playing Justin Jefferson with Adam Thielen and T.J. Hockenson.

 

In a vacuum, it's easy to say "it's all on Josh - we still could have won that game". But with at least a couple of those guys in there, there's no way Justin Jefferson goes off for 193 yards.

Edited November 14, 2022 by BillsFanForever19

[uticaclub]

While I saw the secondary make mistakes, I also no pressure again for most of the game. Cousins had all-day back there, even if we did have our starting backfield, I don't know if it would have made a difference.

 

This team is broken and needs some sort change.

[JerseyBills]

I actually disagree.

 

7 points came off an 81 yard run

 

7 came from Allen fumble. So a depleted secondary would be responsible for 19 points. 

 

And Cousins had some great throws into phenomenal coverage. The Jefferson TD and 4th and 18 come to mind.

I was more disappointed with zero pass rush. 

 

Ultimately it's turnovers though. We had 4. Limit turnovers and we'll be handling teams. But it will be great to get Poyer White and Elam back. As well as Groot

[LABILLBACKER]

Injuries all over this team are killing us. Linebackers, cornerbacks, safeties, Dlineman,  OL, wrs, Qb......

[entropyrules]

13 hours ago, Cray51 said:

This team is missing its talent in the secondary.  Not having Poyer/Hyde/White for all of or most of the year is hurting our ability to handle top receivers and TEs.

 

Benford is losing guys in zone, and although he is physical he cant stay in man

Jackson doesnt turn his head to the QB, and is holding all over the place

Lewis/Johnson cant take angles to save their lives

 

They caused the first TD, the 4th and 18, and a PI on 3rd and 22 that was a complete lack of awareness.

 

If the Bills can get healthy come playoff time, with White/Poyer/Elam, we have a chance to make a run.  But not with the players on the field right now

also don't forget that after Edmunds went out Cousins was able to have some open throwing lanes on those intermediate range passes..Dodson just doesn't have the speed and wing span that Edmunds has

[SoCal Deek]

Or maybe we could just knock the ball away on 4th and 18????

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, entropyrules said:

also don't forget that after Edmunds went out Cousins was able to have some open throwing lanes on those intermediate range passes..Dodson just doesn't have the speed and wing span that Edmunds has

Agree. I'm just tired of the crap people throwing at Edmunds. He's key in the middle of the field.   Just hoping this ends there BS.

[dave mcbride]

11 hours ago, Simon said:

Right now they're a bunch of babes in the woods out there running around.

They desperately need some of that veteran leadership back on the field.

I was at the game yesterday and I really believe that things went south for the pass defense when Edmunds went down with a groin injury right after breaking up a third down pass just before halftime. He was all over the middle of the field in pass D and was an absolute demon. He was playing extremely fast. Dodson was absolutely horrible in coverage, and it seemed to have the knock-on effect of other secondary players shading in to cover up the loss of edmunds. 

[BADOLBILZ]

21 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I was at the game yesterday and I really believe that things went south for the pass defense when Edmunds went down with a groin injury right after breaking up a third down pass just before halftime. He was all over the middle of the field in pass D and was an absolute demon. He was playing extremely fast. Dodson was absolutely horrible in coverage, and it seemed to have the knock-on effect of other secondary players shading in to cover up the loss of edmunds. 

 

 

I disagree with the "knock-on effect" aspect but it does stand to reason that a guy making league minimum who was no roster lock in summer is going to be a lesser player than the $13M player he is replacing.    I think the coverage issues had a lot more to do with CB1 and both safeties being out at the same time.   Elam not so much.........he and Benford aren't significantly different performers at this point.

 

Cousins didn't carve them up over the middle he was heaving prayers and getting them answered.   Classic case of a team that's playing peak football being fired up about being a huge underdog and then playing out of their minds.    A healthy Edmunds has no bearing on Justin Jefferson putting up 200 yards, IMO.  

 

 If people aren't pleased with the quality of depth they should be critical of the choice to save roster spots for kick coverage players like Matakevich when you kicker can just boom every kick out of the end zone.    The return the Vikings had to midfield basically negated all the seasons gains from kicking short to show off your teamers. 

[ngbills]

We had plenty of time to look for help. We got stubborn by thinking our guys - benford, Elam, Lewis, etc were enough. 

[Blank Stare]

I think other team’s secondaries are killing us more at the moment.

 

 

😭

[cgg716]

Yesterday if there was no Allen, and we were calling QB powers with Keenum, Dorsey would be crucified. Why do so many give the other coaches a pass, for not altering their defense, at all, ever

[stevestojan]

With a healthy Poyer, Hyde, and White we’re 9-0. 

[dave mcbride]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I disagree with the "knock-on effect" aspect but it does stand to reason that a guy making league minimum who was no roster lock in summer is going to be a lesser player than the $13M player he is replacing.    I think the coverage issues had a lot more to do with CB1 and both safeties being out at the same time.   Elam not so much.........he and Benford aren't significantly different performers at this point.

 

Cousins didn't carve them up over the middle he was heaving prayers and getting them answered.   Classic case of a team that's playing peak football being fired up about being a huge underdog and then playing out of their minds.    A healthy Edmunds has no bearing on Justin Jefferson putting up 200 yards, IMO.  

 

 If people aren't pleased with the quality of depth they should be critical of the choice to save roster spots for kick coverage players like Matakevich when you kicker can just boom every kick out of the end zone.    The return the Vikings had to midfield basically negated all the seasons gains from kicking short to show off your teamers. 

I thought this passage from Joe B was interesting:

 

5. The Edmunds difference?

After two weeks of inefficient run defending, the Bills seemed like they had their issues figured out in the first half. With both Matt Milano and Tremaine Edmunds in the lineup, the Vikings managed only 22 yards on six carries from their running backs. They were sound up front, the defensive tackles were winning their matchups on the interior and Edmunds and Milano were significant pieces to those efforts. Edmunds was able to get through the first half before having to sit out the rest of the game due to a groin injury, and you can’t help but wonder if Dalvin Cook’s 81-yard touchdown run would have gone differently had Edmunds been on the field as opposed to Tyrel Dodson.

Dodson was on the far side of the rush attempt but got himself caught too close to the line of scrimmage, and he had to weave through traffic to get over to Cook. He then took out Hamlin while trying to get to Cook, but at that point, the runner was already getting into full acceleration. More than just Dodson is at fault for the big play, but Edmunds had been playing at a high level in his previous games and on Sunday. Over the last two weeks, we have seen how the drop-off from Milano and Edmunds to their direct backups impacts the defense, and they got caught for one huge rushing play by the Vikings which helped lead to their demise. Overall, though, it was a much better effort this week in run defending.

 

https://theathletic.com/3879207/2022/11/14/bills-observations-vikings/?source=emp_shared_article

 

[LabattBlue]

Stupid play in the secondary also killing the Bills…

 

Benford with a terrible personal foul in the 4th and an equally bad DPI in OT. 

 

Lewis…”Helping” JJ make the catch on 4th and 18. 

[BullBuchanan]

And what difference would veteran talent have made? We've had the exact same defensive meltdowns for years.

On top of that - Are we going to sit here and act like Jefferson doesn't tear apart everyone? He's had the best start to a career in NFL history for a WR.

Micah Hyde is done. Jordan Poyer might be done. Who knows if Tre White will ever come back again and what he'll look like if he does? Injuries are an excuse, and a bad one. It's the GM's job to fill the roster with NFL caliber players and it's the coach's job to get them ready to play. If you can't win football games because your players aren't good enough or aren't performing to their ceiling - that's not a player problem - it's a front office problem.

[Nextmanup]

We have had health problems with the defensive secondary all season, and until recently, the quality of our sub play was a strong point.  It was better than expected in many ways.

 

So if it's now suddenly the problem, it's a recent problem and maybe it can go back to being OK.

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

6 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

And what difference would veteran talent have made? We've had the exact same defensive meltdowns for years.

On top of that - Are we going to sit here and act like Jefferson doesn't tear apart everyone? He's had the best start to a career in NFL history for a WR.

Micah Hyde is done. Jordan Poyer might be done. Who knows if Tre White will ever come back again and what he'll look like if he does? Injuries are an excuse, and a bad one. It's the GM's job to fill the roster with NFL caliber players and it's the coach's job to get them ready to play. If you can't win football games because your players aren't good enough or aren't performing to their ceiling - that's not a player problem - it's a front office problem.

Well said.

 

And it's certainly not for lack of investment.

 

[BullBuchanan]

5 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Well said.

 

And it's certainly not for lack of investment.

 

that's a hard truth. They loaded up on the D and spent more money on the defensive line than anyone. Yea, they were down Rousseau, but they had Miller and two high #2 picks in Basham and Epenesa. If they chose to fill the reserve spots with 6th round draft picks, that's on them. Maybe they should have re-signed Wallace instead of letting him walk for basically nothing.

[ngbills]

They knew Tre was out until at least midseason. 

 

Still let Levi Wallace walk

Did not sign a single DB in free agency

Signed Rhodes mid season and have not used

Traded for Marlowe and have not used

 

It has been a concern since even before Hyde and Poyer injuries. They are too smart to admit it and do anything than trot out their guys to prove everyone wrong. 

[Low Positive]

1 minute ago, ngbills said:

They knew Tre was out until at least midseason. 

 

Still let Levi Wallace walk

Did not sign a single DB in free agency

Signed Rhodes mid season and have not used

Traded for Marlowe and have not used

 

It has been a concern since even before Hyde and Poyer injuries. They are too smart to admit it and do anything than trot out their guys to prove everyone wrong. 

I agree with all of this except that the Bills let Levi Wallace walk. They matched the Pittsburgh offer and Wallace chose the Steelers due to the color of his underwear. He might have stayed if the Bills had overpaid him, but that would have been an equally bad decision.