Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes are worth infinite draft capital.

[Chaos]

Allen and Mahomes are not replaceable.  I can't imagine any package of draft picks (not even the next 10 years 1st and seconds) that would pry either off of their teams. Does anyone think anyone could anyone could acquire either for any package of draft picks? 

[Warcodered]

Yeah no rational organization trades away a franchise QB.

[H2o]

[Airseven]

Why?

[Chaos]

3 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Yeah no rational organization trades away a franchise QB.

These guys are beyond the franchise QB level.  For example, I think the Chargers would trade Hebert for a four firsts and four seconds (and I don't think anyone would offer that). And he is clearly a franchise QB. 

[Bills2022]

2 minutes ago, Chaos said:

These guys are beyond the franchise QB level.  For example, I think the Chargers would trade Hebert for a four firsts and four seconds (and I don't think anyone would offer that). And he is clearly a franchise QB. 

 

No they wouldn't.  

 

[Southern_Bills]

5 minutes ago, Chaos said:

These guys are beyond the franchise QB level.  For example, I think the Chargers would trade Hebert for a four firsts and four seconds (and I don't think anyone would offer that). And he is clearly a franchise QB. 

 

He may not be Allen or Mahomes but he's better than most. "Franchise QBs" like Wilson get traded, not Herbert.

[Coach Tuesday]

Ok

[RobbRiddicksTDLeap]

8 minutes ago, Bills2022 said:

 

No they wouldn't.  

 

8 of the Top 60 in the next 4 drafts? For Herbert, absolutely. 
 

I get what OP is saying. What Allen and Mahomes bring, is immeasurable. However, over these contracts that they both have; if neither win anymore rings, they could be had for much less than the afore mentioned Herbert Deal. I’m not trying to suggest that Allen won’t win a ring.

However.

 

4 years ago, NO ONE would have called Russel Wilson to the Broncos for some picks. No one. Things change fast in this league. Jerry Glanville said it best “i lose this game, I’ll be baggin’ groceries”. Win now, or try somewhere else. 
 

Edited October 16, 2022 by RobbRiddicksTDLeap

[Warcodered]

13 minutes ago, Chaos said:

These guys are beyond the franchise QB level.  For example, I think the Chargers would trade Hebert for a four firsts and four seconds (and I don't think anyone would offer that). And he is clearly a franchise QB. 

And they'd be idiots for doing that.

[Bills2022]

2 minutes ago, RobbRiddicksTDLeap said:

8 of the Top 60 in the next 4 drafts? For Herbert, absolutely. 
 

I get what OP is saying. What Allen and Mahomes bring, is immeasurable. However, over these contracts that they both have; if neither win anymore rings, they could be had for much less than the afore mentioned Herbert Deal. I’m not trying to suggest that Allen won’t win a ring.

However.

 

4 years ago, NO ONE would have called Russel Wilson to the Broncos for some picks. No one. Things change fast in this league. Jerry Glanville said it best “i lose this game, I’ll be baggin’ groceries”. Win now, or try somewhere else. 
 

 

No way.  That guy is a top 5 quarterback in the NFL and he is young.  You forget with 8 of the Top 60 picks in the next 4 drafts they are going to only pick 1 quarterback and the odds of that guy being as good as Herbert are about zero.  

 

[Virgil]

I believe Lamar is being held back greatly by Roman.  So I'm really curious to see how his contract pans out.  If Baltimore truly refuses to give him the guaranteed money (not saying they should or shouldn't),  it will be a trade and contract unlike anything we've seen.  I think it'll make the Watson exchange and sign look like a drop in the bucket

[Beck Water]

30 minutes ago, Virgil said:

I believe Lamar is being held back greatly by Roman.  So I'm really curious to see how his contract pans out.  If Baltimore truly refuses to give him the guaranteed money (not saying they should or shouldn't),  it will be a trade and contract unlike anything we've seen.  I think it'll make the Watson exchange and sign look like a drop in the bucket

 

Interesting that you see it that way.  I see Roman as providing the perfect system that works to Lamar's talents.  I'm not saying there aren't other systems that Lamar could excel in, but I think there are definitely some that would not suit.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Herbert is a very confusing player. He doesn't use his legs enough. He's probably the best thrower of the football between he, Allen and Mahomes. But Allen and Mahomes separate themselves with what they do with their legs both scrambling behind the line of scrimmage and running for first downs.

 

That said, he's viewed as having potential to be in the class of Allen and Mahomes (he'll never get there if he continues to refuse to use his legs) and for that reason I don't see the Chargers trading him for any deal involving only draft picks.

[Rigotz]

I don’t think it’s accurate to say they’re worth an infinite amount of draft picks. There’s just no price a team can likely pay for either of them.

 

For example, if one team could offer 32 first round draft picks, literally any QB you want in the draft, plus every other first rounder… it would be close. Or, if you don’t like that, double it.

 

So, not infinite, just not attainable.

[uninja]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

Interesting that you see it that way.  I see Roman as providing the perfect system that works to Lamar's talents.  I'm not saying there aren't other systems that Lamar could excel in, but I think there are definitely some that would not suit.

The problem with Roman is his play calling gets stale and he isn’t the greatest at creating and calling good pass plays. Best run game coordinator in the league, bar none, though. 
 

It’s the same ***** when he was in SF. Run game was always amazing. The rest? Eh…

Edited October 16, 2022 by uninja

[Andy1]

You’re right. They both are not replaceable. And the Chiefs are the only team that wouldn’t trade for Allen and the Bills are the only team that wouldn’t trade for Mahomes. We are both good with our guy.

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, Virgil said:

I believe Lamar is being held back greatly by Roman.  So I'm really curious to see how his contract pans out.  If Baltimore truly refuses to give him the guaranteed money (not saying they should or shouldn't),  it will be a trade and contract unlike anything we've seen.  I think it'll make the Watson exchange and sign look like a drop in the bucket

 

He isnt.  There isnt another coordinator that could get the most out of Lamar like they have.  Lamar isnt a pocket passer.  Its time to stop trying to blame that on Roman.

[Virgil]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

Interesting that you see it that way.  I see Roman as providing the perfect system that works to Lamar's talents.  I'm not saying there aren't other systems that Lamar could excel in, but I think there are definitely some that would not suit.

I think that was true his first 3 years, but Lamar has evolved to be able to handle more.  Unfortunately, as we all know too well, Roman has a low ceiling 

[Scott7975]

54 minutes ago, Virgil said:

I think that was true his first 3 years, but Lamar has evolved to be able to handle more.  Unfortunately, as we all know too well, Roman has a low ceiling 

 

His passing has stayed the same or declined every season.  He hasnt evolved at all.  Its just a fairy tale for people who want to believe.

[JoPoy88]

3 hours ago, Chaos said:

Allen and Mahomes are not replaceable.  I can't imagine any package of draft picks (not even the next 10 years 1st and seconds) that would pry either off of their teams. Does anyone think anyone could anyone could acquire either for any package of draft picks? 

stating the obvious here a little, but yes of course that’s right.

[gobills1212]

Bordem ends in this nonsense

[Dan Darragh]

4 hours ago, Chaos said:

Allen and Mahomes are not replaceable.  I can't imagine any package of draft picks (not even the next 10 years 1st and seconds) that would pry either off of their teams. Does anyone think anyone could anyone could acquire either for any package of draft picks? 

Thank you for this post.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

His passing has stayed the same or declined every season.  He hasnt evolved at all.  Its just a fairy tale for people who want to believe.

 

I don't agree with that. I do agree with your earlier statement that he isn't a guy you can just sit in the pocket and win with. You have to get him on the move, you have to have tailored route combinations and you have to be multiple in your running game. 

 

But there are areas of improvement in Lamar's game. I think his patience is noticeably improved. There are plays he makes now that he would already have bailed on even in his MVP year. And he has improved his upper body throwing mechanics which is noticeably resulting in more velocity on his downfield throws. 

 

That isn't to say there don't remain limitations. He isn't a guy about whom it would be right to say "he can make all the throws" because he can't. He still struggles to throw consistently outside the numbers and the deep outs and corner routes remain almost non-existant. His actual bald numbers outside have improved but they are mainly short outside and are the result of the greater patience I mentioned above because he now works through progressions better and gets to check downs. But his limitations are why you can't just sit him in the pocket and throw 40 odd times a game because you don't have enough passing concepts in the playbook available to you.

 

Greg Roman is an underrated OC. He is one of the best in the league and he does a great job with Lamar tailoring the offense to his strengths and not tying him into a straightjacket. If for example Jackson were to be traded to one of the Shanahan stretch zone schemes - 49ers, Rams, Packers, Dolphins, Jets etc and asked to run that offense where the QB very much has to paint by numbers I think he would look pretty bad. Shanahan himself might make it work because he is the best offensive mind in football but the others who just have the playbook but not Kyle's brain would struggle massively I think. 

 

Greg Roman holding Lamar back is one of the most incorrect narratives that is out there in the current NFL landscape.

[Ray Stonada]

4 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Herbert is a very confusing player. He doesn't use his legs enough. He's probably the best thrower of the football between he, Allen and Mahomes. But Allen and Mahomes separate themselves with what they do with their legs both scrambling behind the line of scrimmage and running for first downs.

 

That said, he's viewed as having potential to be in the class of Allen and Mahomes (he'll never get there if he continues to refuse to use his legs) and for that reason I don't see the Chargers trading him for any deal involving only draft picks.

 

He's not a winner and leader, the way Josh and Mahomes are, mentally. He's more of a solo guy, like Bledsoe was at his peak. He's got a great arm and is a great passer though. Josh and Mahomes are far ahead of them in terms of leading a team to victory.

 

[LeGOATski]

42 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't agree with that. I do agree with your earlier statement that he isn't a guy you can just sit in the pocket and win with. You have to get him on the move, you have to have tailored route combinations and you have to be multiple in your running game. 

 

But there are areas of improvement in Lamar's game. I think his patience is noticeably improved. There are plays he makes now that he would already have bailed on even in his MVP year. And he has improved his upper body throwing mechanics which is noticeably resulting in more velocity on his downfield throws. 

 

That isn't to say there don't remain limitations. He isn't a guy about whom it would be right to say "he can make all the throws" because he can't. He still struggles to throw consistently outside the numbers and the deep outs and corner routes remain almost non-existant. His actual bald numbers outside have improved but they are mainly short outside and are the result of the greater patience I mentioned above because he now works through progressions better and gets to check downs. But his limitations are why you can't just sit him in the pocket and throw 40 odd times a game because you don't have enough passing concepts in the playbook available to you.

 

Greg Roman is an underrated OC. He is one of the best in the league and he does a great job with Lamar tailoring the offense to his strengths and not tying him into a straightjacket. If for example Jackson were to be traded to one of the Shanahan stretch zone schemes - 49ers, Rams, Packers, Dolphins, Jets etc and asked to run that offense where the QB very much has to paint by numbers I think he would look pretty bad. Shanahan himself might make it work because he is the best offensive mind in football but the others who just have the playbook but not Kyle's brain would struggle massively I think. 

 

Greg Roman holding Lamar back is one of the most incorrect narratives that is out there in the current NFL landscape.

There's a reason Roman is always strapped to this type of QB, though. Kaepernick, Tyrod, Lamar.... It feels like Roman has willingly boxed himself in, so I tend to agree with others that say his ability to develop a passer/passing game is limited.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, LeGOATski said:

There's a reason Roman is always strapped to this type of QB, though. Kaepernick, Tyrod, Lamar.... It feels like Roman has willingly boxed himself in, so I tend to agree with others that say his ability to develop a passer/passing game is limited.

 

The reason is that if you have a limited passer who ia mobile you hire Greg Roman and he will get the absolute most out of them. 

 

Would I hire Roman to coordinate Allen or Mahomes? No. But I wouldn't hire Sean McVay to coordinate either of those guys either. Working out what style of Quarterback you have and then hiring the right type of coordinator for them is an important decision and being a good OC does not mean you are the right OC for every QB. But if you asked me to rank the offensive minds in the NFL Greg Roman is top 10 / top 12. 

[LeGOATski]

27 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The reason is that if you have a limited passer who ia mobile you hire Greg Roman and he will get the absolute most out of them. 

 

Would I hire Roman to coordinate Allen or Mahomes? No. But I wouldn't hire Sean McVay to coordinate either of those guys either. Working out what style of Quarterback you have and then hiring the right type of coordinator for them is an important decision and being a good OC does not mean you are the right OC for every QB. But if you asked me to rank the offensive minds in the NFL Greg Roman is top 10 / top 12. 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but this seems like a roundabout way of agreeing to what I said. I agree that I would not hire Roman to coordinate the Bills offense with Allen at QB.

 

It seems like Roman's found his niche and he'll have a long career because of that. However, if he had the ambition to become a HC, I imagine he would want to branch out.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but this seems like a roundabout way of agreeing to what I said. I agree that I would not hire Roman to coordinate the Bills offense with Allen at QB.

 

It seems like Roman's found his niche and he'll have a long career because of that. However, if he had the ambition to become a HC, I imagine he would want to branch out.

 

Meh. Every HC who progressed from a coordinator ran a specific scheme. I don't think that is why he hasn't had a HC shot. 

[LeGOATski]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Meh. Every HC who progressed from a coordinator ran a specific scheme. I don't think that is why he hasn't had a HC shot. 

Yeah, I assume he's fine where he is and there will always be his type of QB in the NFL.

[Kirby Jackson]

Of course I would never trade Allen. The Chiefs fans feel the exact same about Mahomes. For the purpose of this thread though, it’s much more interesting to discuss “what a package may look like for either?” There is no reason to have a thread saying “I wouldn’t trade Allen or Mahomes.” Of course no one would but let’s discuss the hypothetical.
 

In my opinion, the package would probably be something like: a young Pro Bowl player, a young mid-tier starter and 4-5 1sts. HYPOTHETICALLY, something like: Isaiah Simmons, Kyler Murray and 4 1sts. Alternatively you could go: Mooney, Fields and 5 1sts (one will obviously be super early). What about Chase, Burrow, 2-3 1sts? You could do Parsons, Dak and 2 1sts? Lastly, you could do something like Bosa, Herbert and 2-3 1sts.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Kirby Jackson

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Of course I would never trade Allen. The Chiefs fans feel the exact same about Mahomes. For the purpose of this thread though, it’s much more interesting to discuss “what a package may look like for either?” There is no reason to have a thread saying “I wouldn’t trade Allen or Mahomes.” Of course no one would but let’s discuss the hypothetical.
 

In my opinion, the package would probably be something like: a young Pro Bowl player, a young mid-tier starter and 4-5 1sts. HYPOTHETICALLY, something like: Isaiah Simmons, Kyler Murray and 4 1sts. Alternatively you could go: Mooney, Fields and 5 1sts (one will obviously be super early). What about Chase, Burrow, 2-3 1sts? You could do Parsons, Dak and 2 1sts? Lastly, you could do something like Bosa, Herbert and 2-3 1sts.

 

You are only allowed to trade three years ahead. So to get four 1sts you'd need a team with an additional 1st in that period. 

 

I would turn Isaiah Simmons (still kinda positionless), Kyler Murray and four 1sts down even in hypothetical land. Herbert, Bosa and Rashawn Slater and 3 firsts is as close as I can get even in hypothetical land. 

 

In the real world he is untradeable for now. You only consider trading guys like Josh in their mid 30s if you think you can land the next guy as a result.

[Tanoros]

7 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

His passing has stayed the same or declined every season.  He hasnt evolved at all.  Its just a fairy tale for people who want to believe.

For me personally (eye test that is), I thought Lamar looked better passing last year than the previous years, and this year it looks better than last. Lamar’s throwing has certainly improved from what I’ve seen (but I also don’t watch every Ravens game, but I do watch a lot of condensed games replays). Either way, to me personally, I’ve seen growth in his passing and I think Lamar is here to stay in the NFL, even on a new team. 
 

This year atleast, Roman isn’t doing so good with the run game. Lamar has had some good running, but they can’t get anything going with the rb’s, yet Lamar is still having a great year, and his improved passing is a part of that. 

[starrymessenger]

4 hours ago, Ray Stonada said:

 

He's not a winner and leader, the way Josh and Mahomes are, mentally. He's more of a solo guy, like Bledsoe was at his peak. He's got a great arm and is a great passer though. Josh and Mahomes are far ahead of them in terms of leading a team to victory.

 

Thinking that Herbert was not a leader and a winner is what led Miami to pick Tua ahead of him. That was a mistake. The guy actually is very competitive.

[Charles Romes]

9 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Herbert is a very confusing player. He doesn't use his legs enough. He's probably the best thrower of the football between he, Allen and Mahomes. But Allen and Mahomes separate themselves with what they do with their legs both scrambling behind the line of scrimmage and running for first downs.

 

That said, he's viewed as having potential to be in the class of Allen and Mahomes (he'll never get there if he continues to refuse to use his legs) and for that reason I don't see the Chargers trading him for any deal involving only draft picks.

 
 

it’s possible Herbert is playing the long game and trying to play into his 40s like Brady. 

[DCofNC]

8 hours ago, uninja said:

The problem with Roman is his play calling gets stale and he isn’t the greatest at creating and calling good pass plays. Best run game coordinator in the league, bar none, though. 
 

It’s the same ***** when he was in SF. Run game was always amazing. The rest? Eh…

Look at the QBs he has worked worked with, who got better after he left?

[Kirby Jackson]

56 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You are only allowed to trade three years ahead. So to get four 1sts you'd need a team with an additional 1st in that period. 

 

I would turn Isaiah Simmons (still kinda positionless), Kyler Murray and four 1sts down even in hypothetical land. Herbert, Bosa and Rashawn Slater and 3 firsts is as close as I can get even in hypothetical land. 

 

In the real world he is untradeable for now. You only consider trading guys like Josh in their mid 30s if you think you can land the next guy as a result.

That’s fair and should have clarified that these weren’t even necessarily legal 😂😂. It really shows just how incredible those 2 are. 

[finn]

You'd think NFL teams without a franchise QB would realize that the position is worth any amount of investment. That's why I wanted to throw up when Doug Whaley gave away TWO first-round picks for Sammy Watkins when they didn't have a QB, then panicked the next year and reached for E.J. Manuel. Or, before that, the Bills reached for J.P. Losman instead of trading down so they had the capital for a better QB the following year, when, it turns out, they might have had a shot at Aaron Rogers. 

[MJS]

All it would take is for Allen or Mahomes to start demanding a trade and put up a major stink in the lockerroom, in interviews, etc. Holding out in the offseason. Eventually they would get traded.

 

Obviously, that's not going to happen.

[MJS]

9 hours ago, uninja said:

The problem with Roman is his play calling gets stale and he isn’t the greatest at creating and calling good pass plays. Best run game coordinator in the league, bar none, though. 
 

It’s the same ***** when he was in SF. Run game was always amazing. The rest? Eh…

I hear this argument a lot when his QB's continue to struggle passing the football, but I haven't seen any evidence of these guys improving in other schemes. Tyrod Taylor's best years in the NFL were with Greg Roman. He has absolutely sucked after that. All the other QB's have been the same or worse.

 

In my opinion, Roman has played to the strengths of his QB's and covered up some weaknesses. I don't think he held them back at all. Lamar is developing as a passer more and more. I can't imagine him being a different QB on another team or with another OC.