Breaking News: Doctor that cleared Tua in concussion protocol is fired...

[ColoradoBills]

5 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

nope. we all saw him staggering.  we all saw his head hit the turf. c'mon.  This was malpractice and I'm not a fan of the lawsuits , generally.  We all make mistakes. But this was egregious.

 

I totally agree.  I meant we have to wait and see if any official penalties are given to Miami.

They can't put it all on the UNC, he has no power.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

After the clarification above re the protocol, it’s clear to me that the Union had the power to can the UNC, But likely has no say about the dolphins doctor. 
 

While the team doctor is the one to ultimately blame, it is probably on the dolphins to fire him— which I am guessing is coming next. 

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

3 hours ago, vincec said:

If this is going to be credible at all, then the NFLPA needs to explain the mistakes that they claim he made.

 

They don’t actually have to prove anything to dismiss him. They can do that even if he made no mistakes at all.

The NFLPA and the league have contracts with these independent neurologists. They most likely have to be able to demonstrate cause to unilaterally terminate the contract.  If they can't demonstrate cause for termination or have a specific "employment at will" clause in the contract, this could end up in court with the neurologist claiming a breach of contract.  Being the cynic that I am, I suppose they could always pay off the neurologist to go away quietly.  I don't believe we will ever know the real story.

[ganesh]

4 hours ago, Malazan said:

DeMaurice Smith is a moron. He fires this guy which gives a perfect scapegoat for the league and Dolphins. He should have been attacking the protocol and the team.

The Doctor was part of the team.  The question is did the Dr. say yes based on pressure from the coach ?

[Malazan]

13 minutes ago, ganesh said:

The Doctor was part of the team.  The question is did the Dr. say yes based on pressure from the coach ?

 

The guy that was fired was not part of the team. He was the independent doctor (approved by the league and NFLPA). The NFLPA can not fire the team doctor. 

 

2 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

you think Smith is done? This is more than likely just step one.

 

2 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

Oh, I'm sure he is. He doesn't have the power to fire team doctors like he did the UNC. I'm sure this is just Step 1. I'd be shocked if the Team Doctor survives this and the Dolphins don't face consequences. As minimal as Offense 1 violation punishment is.

 

Did I say he was 'done'? I said he gave the NFL and Dolphins a scapegoat. Also, given his track record of always losing to the league.. does it matter if he's not done? 

 

1 hour ago, ToGoGo said:

Hahahahahahahahahahahahha. 

 

Nobody is a moron. If you have no ethics, this is the perfect move. 

 

What else would the NFL do if they had no ethics? 

 

What are you even talking about? DeMaurice Smith works for the NFLPA, not the NFL. 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Malazan

[Cheektowaga Chad]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

It's sad that this needs to be a "rule"

 

I understand that every player is always going to want to play, that's why you have coaches/doctors/gms to make that choice for the player.

 

This is the job of the coach to make sure he doesn't go back in. His job is to make the tough decision, to make the unpopular choice, to take the heat off his player  

[UKBillFan]

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I totally agree.  I meant we have to wait and see if any official penalties are given to Miami.

They can't put it all on the UNC, he has no power.

 

Doubt it. The Dolphins and McDaniel are the golden children of this early season. I think the NFL will try to pin it on the consultant and sweep the rest under the carpet.

[Warcodered]

1 hour ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

After the clarification above re the protocol, it’s clear to me that the Union had the power to can the UNC, But likely has no say about the dolphins doctor. 
 

While the team doctor is the one to ultimately blame, it is probably on the dolphins to fire him— which I am guessing is coming next. 

I mean they haven't admitted doing any of the things they've been punished with so far this year I don't think.

[Rat-boy]

2 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Nah this is about player safety.  Id rather incompentent people just get fired and lose their license while the team gets heavily fined and loses draft picks for the next two years because I dont think they have any this year.  It should be heavy because this is the second time they failed to follow protocol.

 

They are simps.  They still will think its a witch hunt.  They dont give two ***** about player safety.

Agree - plus I am sure there are a subset of them that “know” they are right and that any evidence that contradicts their viewpoint is coming from a source that is not trustworthy. Welcome to today’s world, and pass the beer nuts.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Rat-boy

[KHAN]

3 hours ago, UKBillFan said:

 

Everyone watching that game knew Tua had concussion. It did not need a medical professional to say otherwise; McDaniel could have stepped in and said Tua would not return.

I may be naive, but I wholeheartedly believe if Sean had seen Josh get up and stumble like that, HE would have made the decision not to let Josh return.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Hate him all you want, but Jalen is right:

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34703211/worry-player-safety-not-my-socks

[ExiledInIllinois]

1 minute ago, KHAN said:

I may be naive, but I wholeheartedly believe if Sean had seen Josh get up and stumble like that, HE would have made the decision not to let Josh return.

One would only hope.  People forget, or didn't see it... Tua's hands did the same thing on Sunday as they did on Thursday.   He was just sitting up and the symptoms got lost in the Dolphins blinding obsession for beating the Bills for the first time in 4 years.  Dolphins management would have turned him into a vegetable for that win on Sunday.

 

Look at his hands on Sunday:

 

Something is definitely not right with the Dolphins organization... Going back to the Flores lawsuit too.

 

Karma is a MuthaPh**ker... Sadly, Tua the pawn.

 

They can have their ill-gotten win.  I simply don't wanna win like this. 

[Scott7975]

7 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Hate him all you want, but Jalen is right:

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34703211/worry-player-safety-not-my-socks

 

Yeah I dont like him.  Totally agree with is statement though.  I tried to post it earlier but for whatever reason I could not get the link to work.

[Captain Hindsight]

27 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Hate him all you want, but Jalen is right:

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34703211/worry-player-safety-not-my-socks

I’ve never had an issue with Jalen. He’s a passionate dude and a good player. I just don’t trust his player evals 

[boyst]

3 hours ago, Logic said:

I wonder what all the indignant, righteous Dolphins fans who've spent the past few days calling this a witch hunt and saying everything was done by the book are thinking right about now.

I have an idea but can't post it. I really pissed some folks off talking about Miami already. 😁😁😁

[ToGoGo]

1 hour ago, Malazan said:

What are you even talking about? DeMaurice Smith works for the NFLPA, not the NFL. 

 

And what's the NFLPA? At the very top. Pure love and goodness? 

 

I hate to ruin your fantasy. Smith works for Goodell and the owners. There's some free will there, but when push comes to shove they all have the same boss. NFL is a sham. 

[Malazan]

40 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

And what's the NFLPA? At the very top. Pure love and goodness? 

 

I hate to ruin your fantasy. Smith works for Goodell and the owners. There's some free will there, but when push comes to shove they all have the same boss. NFL is a sham. 

 

Right.

 

[Warcodered]

1 hour ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Hate him all you want, but Jalen is right:

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34703211/worry-player-safety-not-my-socks

Is he? He says they should be talking about player safety instead of his socks and then proceeds to talk about his ***** socks.

[ExiledInIllinois]

1 minute ago, Warcodered said:

Is he? He says they should be talking about player safety instead of his socks and then proceeds to talk about his ***** socks.

I really think he doesn't want to talk about his socks or knee pads. He doesn't want to bring it up, IMO... But they keep fining him for ticky-tacky stuff and blow off the big stuff, so it gets brought up.

 

I don't get the vibe he was being an attentionwhore about his socks.  It just needed to be stated.

[Warcodered]

7 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

I really think he doesn't want to talk about his socks or knee pads. He doesn't want to bring it up, IMO... But they keep fining him for ticky-tacky stuff and blow off the big stuff, so it gets brought up.

 

I don't get the vibe he was being an attentionwhore about his socks.  It just needed to be stated.

He was asked about Tua and player safety and steered the conversation to his fines for the uniform violation he's not changing and even explicitly saying he won't change.

[Motorin']

3 hours ago, Florida Bills Fanatic said:

The NFLPA and the league have contracts with these independent neurologists. They most likely have to be able to demonstrate cause to unilaterally terminate the contract.  If they can't demonstrate cause for termination or have a specific "employment at will" clause in the contract, this could end up in court with the neurologist claiming a breach of contract.  Being the cynic that I am, I suppose they could always pay off the neurologist to go away quietly.  I don't believe we will ever know the real story.

 

I think there's a greater likelyhood of this neurologist losing his license to practice medicine than winning a wrongful termination law suit. 

 

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

31 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

He was asked about Tua and player safety and steered the conversation to his fines for the uniform violation he's not changing and even explicitly saying he won't change.

Yeah... But it's relevant. Shows how misguided League is with real safety. 

[kkim0904]

He or she should revoked from practicing medicine.

[Warcodered]

7 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Yeah... But it's relevant. Shows how misguided League is with real safety. 

Then why did he bring it up?

[Joe Ferguson forever]

"According to the NFL's concussion protocols, a team's unaffiliated neurotrauma consultant is required to be "a physician who is impartial and independent from any Club, is board certified in neurology, emergency medicine, physical medicine and rehabilitation, or any primary care CAQ [certificates of added qualification] sports medicine certified physician or board eligible or board certified in neurological surgery, and has documented competence and experience in the treatment of acute head injuries."

This irks me.  Are there not enough board certified neurologists or neurosurgeons available and willing to participate in NFL cities?   They would be the most qualified to make a judgement.  one can be board eligible and actually have failed the boards more than once.

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by redtail hawk

[ExiledInIllinois]

1 hour ago, Warcodered said:

Then why did he bring it up?

To show how misguided the League is.  IMO, he didn't come off as trying to seek attention.

1 hour ago, kkim0904 said:

He or she should revoked from practicing medicine.

And the Bills should be awarded the 19-14 win! 😆 🤣 😂  

 

 

😏 

Edited October 2, 2022 by ExiledInIllinois

[Rochesterfan]

8 hours ago, Florida Bills Fanatic said:

The NFLPA and the league have contracts with these independent neurologists. They most likely have to be able to demonstrate cause to unilaterally terminate the contract.  If they can't demonstrate cause for termination or have a specific "employment at will" clause in the contract, this could end up in court with the neurologist claiming a breach of contract.  Being the cynic that I am, I suppose they could always pay off the neurologist to go away quietly.  I don't believe we will ever know the real story.

 

Also written into the contract is that the NFL and NFLPA can each fire one UNC for any reason without consulting the other side.  
 

The NFLPA fired this UNC under this rule.  Then stated their were multiple “mistakes” without having presented any mistakes.

 

I do not think the UNC has any say as it is in the contract, but if the NFLPA starts making a big deal about him screwing up - my guess is they get sued for potentially impacting his career - especially if as is claimed they followed the protocol and Tua was cleared by the team doctor.

 

My guess is this is Smith and the NFLPA trying to at least make a show of doing something because he loses to the NFL all the time - it really has little to do with the UNC that evaluates these guys on a rare and random basis.

 

 

 

 

[Rochesterfan]

5 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

I think there's a greater likelyhood of this neurologist losing his license to practice medicine than winning a wrongful termination law suit. 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, kkim0904 said:

He or she should revoked from practicing medicine.

 

This is crazy at this point - the guy has not even been shown to have done anything wrong within the protocol.  The NFLPA fired him as is their right within the CBA without giving cause or reason.

 

Unless you were in the locker room - we have no idea what he said or did as the UNC.  He should have examined Tua and then gave his opinion on if he thought he was concussed or not based upon his cognitive ability.  If Tua passed his cognitive ability compared to his baseline and the team doctor tells him that Tua is not showing any signs of mental difficulties - there is little the UNC can do.

 

Concussions are mis-diagnosed all of the time because it is not a clear cut test to determine.  It is best caught by people administering the test that have a more familiar knowledge of the player to see if there are mental changes and that is why the testing is done in conjunction with the team doctor.  The UNC can grade the results of the questions, but the team doctor must grade the mental changes.

 

Based upon what has been pulled from the agreement - both the UNC and the team doctor must consult and then it is the team doctor that makes the call.  The current protocol also allows for a situation like this to occur - where the player complains about back or ankle pain and passes all mental testing and they can blame the instability on something other than concussions.

 

For the entire process to work - the 3 individuals (UNC, team doctor, and player) must be honest and truthful throughout - we have no idea which of these broke down, but the UNC does not at this time deserve to lose his medical license or career over something that he has not been shown to have done incorrectly.

 

The bigger fault to me lies with the team doctor and the head coach, but the NFLPA has no jurisdiction there so they did the only thing they could do - create a scapegoat and fire the UNC without providing reasoning or evidence that he did anything wrong at this point.  
 

I could agree if they show that he thought he was concussed and then purposely said he was fine to allow him to play, but that has not been shown at this point.

 

 

[eball]

Totally pathetic.  Easy cop out for McDaniel:  “the doctor cleared him so what was I supposed to do?”  What a joke.

 

The players should see right through this charade.  The question is whether they care.

 

[GunnerBill]

I would still consider myself shocked if the reality here is that the UNC had failed to make a proper examination. But equally as I respect that only that one UNC knows what happened in the treatment room I respect that only the NFLPA know what has since emerged in the interviews. 

 

I would be surprised if they have terminated him without cause (because if they have that is a potential employment dispute waiting to happen that will cost them a few bucks) but equally reading between the lines of the statement they seem to be saying "we don't care what the concussion test showed, the UNC should not have let a player showing motor functionality issues go back on the field."

 

Personally I would say that comes back to the loophole in the protocol and, the positive news, is that loophole is now being closed. 

[Buddo]

It could well be because the full ‘protocol’ wasn’t followed correctly. 
 

Iirc Tua went straight to the locker room, and again iirc, he should have had his first assessment on the sidelines.

 

There is also something in the protocol, about watching the incident as well. Which we don’t know if it happened.

 

I think a case can be made for termination, if just one of the above, didn’t get done.

[DaggersEOD]

13 hours ago, Malazan said:

 

Tua likely misled the doctors given his own statements on the injury. 

Concussed people do all sorts of odd things. If he did lie and try to get back on the field (of course he did), I bet he doesn’t remember it. The doctors and team were supposed to be there to protect the player from himself. 

[RichRiderBills]

19 minutes ago, Buddo said:

It could well be because the full ‘protocol’ wasn’t followed correctly. 
 

Iirc Tua went straight to the locker room, and again iirc, he should have had his first assessment on the sidelines.

 

There is also something in the protocol, about watching the incident as well. Which we don’t know if it happened.

 

I think a case can be made for termination, if just one of the above, didn’t get done.

 

Shefty read it the other day, something about showing signs of loss of motor reflex at any time following.

[Wayne Cubed]

17 minutes ago, Buddo said:

It could well be because the full ‘protocol’ wasn’t followed correctly. 
 

Iirc Tua went straight to the locker room, and again iirc, he should have had his first assessment on the sidelines.

 

There is also something in the protocol, about watching the incident as well. Which we don’t know if it happened.

 

I think a case can be made for termination, if just one of the above, didn’t get done.

This is where the loophole makes it confusing. According to the protocol, if a “no go” event occurs the player is suppose to leave the field immediately and be escorted to the locker room. You aren’t suppose to be able to come back from a “no go” event except if they can determine if the player had a “gross motor instability” and that was caused by something orthopaedic not neurological.

 

I think the problem there is, if you take them straight to the sideline for the test there’s a better chance diagnosing the concussion. Otherwise you are giving the player time to clear those cobwebs.

 

They also don’t go into details about how they determine it was orthopaedic and not neurological. 

[Ta111]

8 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

 

Shefty read it the other day, something about showing signs of loss of motor reflex at any time following.

Yes, and being wobbly and falling to the ground is a sure sign of loss of motor reflex. Under the rules that should have led to him being removed from the game regardless of any subsequent “examination”.

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

I would still consider myself shocked if the reality here is that the UNC had failed to make a proper examination. But equally as I respect that only that one UNC knows what happened in the treatment room I respect that only the NFLPA know what has since emerged in the interviews. 

 

I would be surprised if they have terminated him without cause (because if they have that is a potential employment dispute waiting to happen that will cost them a few bucks) but equally reading between the lines of the statement they seem to be saying "we don't care what the concussion test showed, the UNC should not have let a player showing motor functionality issues go back on the field."

 

Personally I would say that comes back to the loophole in the protocol and, the positive news, is that loophole is now being closed. 

 

The independent neurologist is a contractor--he/she serves at the pleasure of the NFL and the NFLPA with the understanding that he/she can be fired by either entity without cause.  That is the bargained for concussion protocol as it is. 

7 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

I think there's a greater likelyhood of this neurologist losing his license to practice medicine than winning a wrongful termination law suit. 

 

 

 

There's no chance this will happen.  It's absurd.

10 hours ago, KHAN said:

I may be naive, but I wholeheartedly believe if Sean had seen Josh get up and stumble like that, HE would have made the decision not to let Josh return.

 

no way

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The independent neurologist is a contractor--he/she serves at the pleasure of the NFL and the NFLPA with the understanding that he/she can be fired by either entity without cause.  That is the bargained for concussion protocol as it is. 

 

 

Fair enough. I know you guys have looser employment protections over there than we do over here. If someone has at least 2 years service even on a contractor basis in the UK then you need cause to terminate early. You can't collectively bargain or otherwise contractually seek to get around that.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Replacement team appointed:

[Mr. WEO]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Fair enough. I know you guys have looser employment protections over there than we do over here. If someone has at least 2 years service even on a contractor basis in the UK then you need cause to terminate early. You can't collectively bargain or otherwise contractually seek to get around that.

 

 I meant the bargained for condition is that either/both the NFL and the NFLPA can terminate the neurologist without cause.  The neurologist accepts the job with that understanding and signs with that knowledge his contract with the NFL.   All of these guys are just doing this as a side gig to their actual practice.  They probably get a per diem.

[RichRiderBills]

A lot of folks gas bagging on here, trying to impress everyone and be the expert. 

 

It's pretty simple and reasonable to believe that if the Doc was fired, there is some cause. It's also reasonable to believe that cause was that the protocol was not followed or there was some degree of malpractice or negligence.

 

Essentially we have confirmed what we've been saying here for a week.