Training Camp practice 8/1

[JDubya76]

31 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

In the MattvsMatt Puntapalooza, Buscaglia says Araiza won the day, his 2nd straight practice win. The results after 8 punts:
 

Haack

Avg yards: 43.1

Hang time: 4.46

 

Araiza

Avg yards: 48.4

Hang time: 4.39

Yeah but Thad Brown said his completion percentage is almost as bad as Allen’s. He keeps track of those things, he meticulous. 

[chongli]

6 hours ago, stevewin said:

Add in that the roster on the Bills website isn't in printable form, and it's next to impossible to see your phone  in the sun.

 

 

Tip: screenshot the roster at home on your computer, then paste and save it in a photo editing program like IrFanView (free and easy to use), then print this.

[BADOLBILZ]

20 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

He also had one of the best days of his career as a captain and a leader of men.

His insistence on keeping his chin up and continuing to grind on a gawdawful day inspired everybody around him and imo was the only reason the Bills managed to steal that game.

 

 

 

Agree........but that's not the discussion point.

 

The offense wasn't good that day............Allen just played RB1 rushing the ball 15 times because the OL couldn't pass block and Allen and the receivers couldn't move the ball.    Similar struggle versus Carolina but versus Atlanta Allen didn't stay in the pocket and get sacked 4x.     Jets game finale was no dandy either.    That's the game where Gabe Davis authored his 3 catches on 14 targets masterpiece.  

 

The offense was focused and sharp in the second half versus Tampa and the second NE game...........but like too much of the season they didn't bring their A game consistently on offense down the stretch.  

 

They were much more consistent on defense during the season.

 

 

[Doc Brown]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Love the Von Miller signing but Star, Murphy, Butler, Jefferson, Addison........that's about $100M prioritized on mediocrity.    

 

For all of that investment in the DL they haven't had a double digit sacker in McD's 5 seasons here.........the longest such streak for the Bills since sacks became an official stat.

Agreed as starting in 2017 we've finished in order 29th, 25th, 6th, 15th, and 12th in sacks.  Not good enough for how much money they invested in it.  It's not that surprising we've never had a double digit sack guy though considering how often they rotate.  I wonder if Epenesa or Basham don't take a step forward they just line up Von out there for 80% of the snaps like he's used too.  Especially down the stretch and in the playoffs if we get that far.

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah...........the offense almost cost Buffalo a W that day.

 

Josh Allen had one of the worst days of his career passing the ball........... 11-26 for 120 yards 0 TD's and 3 interceptions.

 

There is a misconception that the offense was great after the first half in Tampa............the Carolina and Atlanta games were actually offensive struggles despite the score.

 

 

The Bills won that game by 2 TD's.  It was a snowy/windy day which clearly impacted the passing game.  Allen did rush the ball 15 times for 81 yards and 2 TD's.

 

 

[Albany,n.y.]

1 hour ago, eSJayDee said:

Is that really winning?  I'd say winning is having decisively better hang time & slightly better yardage.  Failing that to have even a slight edge, you've gotta be better in both metrics.

If they're close you go with the one on a multi-year rookie contract over the one who will be a free agent at the end of the season.  It's going to be tough for Haack to make the team.  

 

https://overthecap.com/player/matt-araiza/10225

 

https://overthecap.com/player/matt-haack/6094

Edited August 2, 2022 by Albany,n.y.

[Fan in Chicago]

1 hour ago, That's No Moon said:

 

 

It's unpopular to say it, I know it, I just won't be surprised if they struggle again.  Particularly early in the season. There are still a LOT of things to work out and the schedule does them no favors this year.

Yep, agreed esp due to the uncertainty around the OL. The best we can expect is for Brown to be back fully healthy and Dawkins' personal problems behind him. Then we can at least field the best possible unit we can. 

Contrary to popular belief, the D may have to win a couple of the games in the first half of the season. Or again depend on magician Allen

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

5 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

In Carolina, Gettleman drafted more players (1) who had a 10 sack season than have Beane/McD here (0).

 

When you're looking up at Gettleman something's dreadfully wrong.  Not saying a guy like Rousseau can't get there, but it's an indictment of the organization's talent evaluation they haven't identified one yet who can do that...especially for a defensive scheme that has to get pressure from the front 4. 

Don't worry. EO is here with his amazing pass rush win rate and defeats rate to save the day.

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

In the MattvsMatt Puntapalooza, Buscaglia says Araiza won the day, his 2nd straight practice win. The results after 8 punts:
 

Haack

Avg yards: 43.1

Hang time: 4.46

 

Araiza

Avg yards: 48.4

Hang time: 4.39

 

It is still the hang time that concerns me. The previous day he won the hang time battle as well and that is what I am looking for from him to win this job. We know he has the stronger leg. If he can't consistently get enough hang then I worry about the impact that will have in the pros. 

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, That's No Moon said:

The offense struggled many times last year and IMO the defense is/was overrated which is why I smh when people discount articles that wonder if the Bills will win 12 games. I get that it isn't what you want to hear but they are playing likely a good portion of this season without Tre White and our corner depth is all unproven, the offensive line is still a weakness and a lot of it is broken and the RT has a back problem, the running game is still a huge question mark, they have a new play caller who has never had that role and nobody knows how that's going to go, etc.

 

People want to act like the offense was a juggernaut because how the season ended but in real life they had big time issues a lot of the time last year. People also want to wave around the #1 defense as though they didn't get absolutely torched by the Chiefs all game long forget about how it ended. If you can't defend for 13 seconds you aren't #1 of anything, I'm sorry. They needed the defense to make one stop to win that game. One. They had 2 chances to get that one stop and they couldn't do it. Not only couldn't they do it they barely slowed KC down. Does Von Miller fix all that? I kinda doubt it.

 

It's unpopular to say it, I know it, I just won't be surprised if they struggle again.  Particularly early in the season. There are still a LOT of things to work out and the schedule does them no favors this year.

 

Tre White is not missing much of the season, if any. He is a possibility for week 1 and he will be on the field by week 4 at the latest unless he has a major setback from where he is now. It is a fairer concern to say that players coming off ACL can play a little tentative when they first return to the field because as much practice as you have there is no substitute for having to explode out of your stance for real. So "will Tre be at his usual all pro level this year?" is a fairer question. But he will be out there for the overwhelming majority of our games. 

 

The offensive line is a much bigger concern to me. Roger Saffold has always been a player I have felt is overrated. He is a below average pass blocker. Ryan Bates had a good 5 or 6 games playing next to Dion, but the real reason for that uptick in line play was Dion getting back to being Dion IMO. Now you are flipping Bates to play next to a tackle who had some rookie struggles and then back surgery (on a 6'7 man)... there is zero guarantee that he backs up his play last year. He may, of course, but it is just not a guarantee. 

 

The Bills will win at least 12 games for sure though. 12 is their absolute floor unless Josh gets hurt. 

[John from Riverside]

8 hours ago, That's No Moon said:

The offense struggled many times last year and IMO the defense is/was overrated which is why I smh when people discount articles that wonder if the Bills will win 12 games. I get that it isn't what you want to hear but they are playing likely a good portion of this season without Tre White and our corner depth is all unproven, the offensive line is still a weakness and a lot of it is broken and the RT has a back problem, the running game is still a huge question mark, they have a new play caller who has never had that role and nobody knows how that's going to go, etc.

 

People want to act like the offense was a juggernaut because how the season ended but in real life they had big time issues a lot of the time last year. People also want to wave around the #1 defense as though they didn't get absolutely torched by the Chiefs all game long forget about how it ended. If you can't defend for 13 seconds you aren't #1 of anything, I'm sorry. They needed the defense to make one stop to win that game. One. They had 2 chances to get that one stop and they couldn't do it. Not only couldn't they do it they barely slowed KC down. Does Von Miller fix all that? I kinda doubt it.

 

It's unpopular to say it, I know it, I just won't be surprised if they struggle again.  Particularly early in the season. There are still a LOT of things to work out and the schedule does them no favors this year.

The Buffalo Bills had the seventh ranked offense last year seven out of 32 teams exactly how is that struggling it’s in the top 10

[Lost]

23 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

The Buffalo Bills had the seventh ranked offense last year seven out of 32 teams exactly how is that struggling it’s in the top 10

 

Easy.  There were clearly a lot of games last season where they just weren't clicking.  And most of the time that was due to lack of protection from the OL.    As we see how training camp is progressing, its pretty easy to see that could be a potential problem for us again.   That being said, when the offense is clicking and the OL is healthy and doing their job, no team can stop us.   Our 7th ranked offense came from those 10 or so games where they were playing lights out.  There were 5 or 6 games where it was the defense keeping us alive.  

[TBBills]

8 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

In the MattvsMatt Puntapalooza, Buscaglia says Araiza won the day, his 2nd straight practice win. The results after 8 punts:
 

Haack

Avg yards: 43.1

Hang time: 4.46

 

Araiza

Avg yards: 48.4

Hang time: 4.39

Punt God all day. 5 extra yards average punt

[Coach Tuesday]

3 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said:

Don't worry. EO is here with his amazing pass rush win rate and defeats rate to save the day

Edited August 2, 2022 by Coach Tuesday

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, That's No Moon said:

 

Agreed. Some of these guys need to start panning out. Now. 

 

They absolutely do. Because even if Von has a great year there is no "high floor, low ceiling" overpaid vet like Mario Addison to play the other side. Greg needs to take a step forward from a solid but not spectacular rookie year, Boogie and AJE need to show they can play in this league. 

[Son of a K-Gun]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is still the hang time that concerns me. The previous day he won the hang time battle as well and that is what I am looking for from him to win this job. We know he has the stronger leg. If he can't consistently get enough hang then I worry about the impact that will have in the pros. 

The hang time delta is just 7 one hundredths of a second…stupid question, but isn’t that essentially a wash?  

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Son of a K-Gun said:

The hang time delta is just 7 one hundredths of a second…stupid question, but isn’t that essentially a wash?  

 

The league leaders normally average around 4.8 seconds. A near half a second difference matters in terms of the chance it gives your coverage team. 

[BADOLBILZ]

8 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

The Bills won that game by 2 TD's.  It was a snowy/windy day which clearly impacted the passing game.  Allen did rush the ball 15 times for 81 yards and 2 TD's.

 

 

 

We must have been at different games..........the weather at the one in Orchard Park wasn't 11-26 passing for 120 yards 0 TD's and 3 interceptions bad.

 

The Bills had an easy schedule and they just played down to competition and had flat performances far too often............MOSTLY on offense.

 

When they had bad days on defense there was a reason.........a strong offensive opponent..........their bad days on offense were pretty random........the worst being the 6 point debacle in Jacksonville against the worst team in the sport.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, BADOLBILZ said:

 

We must have been at different games..........the weather at the one in Orchard Park wasn't 11-26 passing for 120 yards 0 TD's and 3 interceptions bad.

 

The Bills had an easy schedule and they just played down to competition and had flat performances far too often............MOSTLY on offense.

 

When they had bad days on defense there was a reason.........a strong offensive opponent..........their bad days on offense were pretty random........the worst being the 6 point debacle in Jacksonville against the worst team in the sport.

 

 

....and to add to that, most of their "bad days on offense" started up front. The majority of those games they just couldn't pass protect at all. 

[NewEra]

The offense goes as the OL goes.  If the OL is average, the offense should be great.  If the OL is injured and jax-like, we’ll be sad and doomed.  After a week of training camp news, we better hope the starters come back healthy and stay that way.  The backups are getting destroyed on the reg 

[Simon]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

....and to add to that, most of their "bad days on offense" started up front. The majority of those games they just couldn't pass protect at all. 

 

I would suggest that most of those offensive "valleys" were followed by McDermott yanking hard on Daboll's leash and the Bills offense quickly recovering the following week with a more traditional approach.

That's not something I would put down to coincidence.

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I would suggest that most of those offensive "valleys" were followed by McDermott yanking hard on Daboll's leash and the Bills offense quickly recovering the following week with a more traditional approach.

That's not something I would put down to coincidence.

 

I disagree. It was overwhelmingly Oline related. There were games, especially while Dion was struggling early in the year, where it resembled the 2018 shambles. 

[Son of a K-Gun]

17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The league leaders normally average around 4.8 seconds. A near half a second difference matters in terms of the chance it gives your coverage team. 

Oh ya, completely understood that half a second is a big difference, but Haack was only 7/100’s better yesterday, not 5/10’s.

My kids are competitive swimmers, a sport that is measured to the one hundredth of a second…I can tell you how difficult to see the difference between 7/100’s of a second.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Son of a K-Gun said:

Oh ya, completely understood that half a second is a big difference, but Haack was only 7/100’s better yesterday, not 5/10’s.

My kids are competitive swimmers, a sport that is measured to the one hundredth of a second…I can tell you how difficult to see the difference between 7/100’s of a second.

 

There is no world in which I want Haack to be our punter again. I didn't want it last year. So my question is less Araiza vs Haack so much as it is him vs the league. I said before the draft, before he was a Bill, before the "holding competition" was even a thing... my concern having watched a few videos of him was hang time. I believe that is why he slipped to "third punter off the board" in the draft. Line drive style punts in the NFL really hurt you. 

[finn]

I've never punted in a game, but I'm surprised that a guy with such a strong leg can't get as much hang time as he wants. Isn't it just a matter of changing his trajectory a bit? I'm sure it's not easy, but it's not like he has a whole lot of other things to work on, besides holding. 

[ddaryl]

Just now, finn said:

I've never punted in a game, but I'm surprised that a guy with such a strong leg can't get as much hang time as he wants. Isn't it just a matter of changing his trajectory a bit? I'm sure it's not easy, but it's not like he has a whole lot of other things to work on, besides holding. 

It is a bit perplexing... 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, finn said:

I've never punted in a game, but I'm surprised that a guy with such a strong leg can't get as much hang time as he wants. Isn't it just a matter of changing his trajectory a bit? I'm sure it's not easy, but it's not like he has a whole lot of other things to work on, besides holding. 

 

It is a technique thing for sure. It is about contact points. I'm sure the Bills are working hard on it with him, because he is going to win the job. 

[Ya Digg?]

2 minutes ago, finn said:

I've never punted in a game, but I'm surprised that a guy with such a strong leg can't get as much hang time as he wants. Isn't it just a matter of changing his trajectory a bit? I'm sure it's not easy, but it's not like he has a whole lot of other things to work on, besides holding. 

 

1 minute ago, ddaryl said:

It is a bit perplexing... 

 

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

It is a technique thing for sure. It is about contact points. I'm sure the Bills are working hard on it with him, because he is going to win the job. 

Which is why you take the rookie with the considerably stronger leg. A good coach can teach technique, you can’t teach 60-70 yard punts 

[ddaryl]

6 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

 

 

Which is why you take the rookie with the considerably stronger leg. A good coach can teach technique, you can’t teach 60-70 yard punts 

It still is perplexing why his strong distance can't be quickly turned into longer hang time. To me it seems as simple as where the point of contact is. Foot meets football low you get more of a distance/low hang time punt. Foot meets the foot ball higher up and you lose some distance but gain hang time

I'm not a punter, well I did punt duties the one season I played organized football (age 12), so maybe there is more to it but it almost seems to me that's the difference between distance and hangtime. From there its all about leg strength.

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by ddaryl

[stevewin]

9 hours ago, chongli said:

 

Tip: screenshot the roster at home on your computer, then paste and save it in a photo editing program like IrFanView (free and easy to use), then print this.

Yeah rather than going through all the trouble of manipulating screen shots (especially with all the space and ridiculous font used on the website roster page) would prob be more efficient to just make your own doc.  The point is it would be an easy/obvious thing for them to at least provide a printable pdf as part of the camp information

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

....and to add to that, most of their "bad days on offense" started up front. The majority of those games they just couldn't pass protect at all. 

We both know why the old adage is true;  “the game is won and lost in the trenches”…

[Don Otreply]

Frankly a fair bit of our O line issues were not just on the players but on our o line coach and the OC inability to use and scheme available personal to there advantage,  the same goes for the Defense, A lack of scheme flexibility shined several times last season on both sides of the ball, jmo. 

[SCBills]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah...........the offense almost cost Buffalo a W that day.

 

Josh Allen had one of the worst days of his career passing the ball........... 11-26 for 120 yards 0 TD's and 3 interceptions.

 

There is a misconception that the offense was great after the first half in Tampa............the Carolina and Atlanta games were actually offensive struggles despite the score.

 

 

 

I don't dispute that at all .. We didn't really get the Offense moving until Josh Allen went unleashed and starting doing everything.

 

My point being, Matt Ryan is probably in the Top 5 of QB's we faced last year, and he was surprisingly good for a warm weather/dome QB in a bad weather game, on a bad team, where their biggest weapon in Kyle Pitts went down.  I know he's from Boston College, but that was over a decade ago.  We had no business giving up 20-something points to them if he doesn't inexplicably slide at the 1/2 yard line and then taunt Poyer. 

 

Our Defense was lights out against mediocre to bad/young QB's, but was nowhere near resembling a #1 Defense when we played Brady/Mahomes pt 2 and two power run teams with Henry/Taylor. 

 

Someone pointed out that the Pats were statistically one of the better offenses we faced last year, but does anyone truly believe that?..   Mac Jones, born and raised in the South, melted down when the weather started to turn.  We got him 3x in that stretch.  

 

I believe the addition of Von, Jones, Settle, Phillips, Elam and the growth of Rousseau, Basham and Epenesa truly makes this a #1 Defense... but last year, they were elite in name only.  

[Beck Water]

https://theathletic.com/3468292/2022/08/01/bills-camp-observations-ed-oliver/?source=emp_shared_article

 

Link to Joe B's Athletic article.

 

On Brandin Bryant:

Quote

With Settle out and with the emphasis on third-and-long situations, defensive tackle Brandin Bryant had his best day of training camp by far. Bryant mostly attacked the Case Keenum-led offense and dominated one series.

Through the first three plays, Bryant had two definite would-be sacks and was breathing down Keenum’s neck on the other play, which might have been a sack in a normal circumstance. On that potential sack, Keenum dumped a pass off to running back James Cook a little after Bryant arrived. The next time Bryant was on the field against Keenum, he worked into the backfield for another sack. He could not be stopped in a six-play stretch. And his camp has been more than just a great day Monday.

 

Rookie Shakir had a rough day:

Quote

Shakir worked in as a punt returner while punters Matt Haack and Matt Araiza were going through their reps, and Shakir muffed one punt and bobbled a couple of others. From there, in team drills, one Keenum pass went through Shakir’s hands and was picked off by the defense. Shakir added another drop to the day, but this one deflected into the air and left tackle Dion Dawkins ran under it for a comical catch. Shakir’s final opportunity in team drills came on a quick throw from Allen that cornerback Dane Jackson helped break up, but Shakir got both hands on the pass. While that one wasn’t a classic drop, it’s one you’d like to see the receiver come down with in a contested situation.

 

Offensive line remains offensive with frightening apparitions like Bobby Hart at guard:

Quote

A trend at Bills camp this summer has been that many of their reserve offensive tackles have worked inside at guard to help block for Allen, and veteran Bobby Hart is the latest to do so. Hart worked in at left guard for Rodger Saffold, who has yet to practice this camp because of injured ribs. Hart’s day was a bit up and down. He put together a couple of great reps against Oliver during one-on-ones but struggled a bit more in pass blocking in team drills.

The Bills also worked in veteran Greg Van Roten at left guard as they continue to assess their offensive line depth. They might need to do some more tinkering because second-year player Tommy Doyle suffered a late-practice injury. Doyle was at right guard for injured presumed starter Ryan Bates. Bates has missed the last four practices with unspecified muscle soreness.

The offensive line has struggled to block for Allen, which may also speak to a depth problem. As the summer continues and veterans get released around the league, it may be something to monitor.

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Beck Water

[Fan in Chicago]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I disagree. It was overwhelmingly Oline related. There were games, especially while Dion was struggling early in the year, where it resembled the 2018 shambles. 

Going by memory here - yes, the OL wasnt great and much was masked by Allen's ability to step away from pressure, take off and complete passes while scrambling.

But there were several games where the play calling wasnt doing any favors to the OL or to Allen. The pass-run ratio was too high and the passing plays were quite predictable. It seemed that Daboll came into games with a pre-determined plan and scripted plays but did not adjust in-game when that was not working. And we dont even know how many times Allen may have covered up for poor play calling. 

So, I disagree with the "overwhelmingly OLine related" comment.  

[Shaw66]

Some of you were in a discussion yesterday or earlier today about the fact that the Bills didn't really dominate games last year.   Some complained that, despite investment in the Dline, there weren't enough sacks.  Others said the offense sputtered often.   

 

I read those comments and had two opposite reactions.  One is that pretty much all the comments were true.  The Bills had poor games last year, weak halves, and various positions, particularly oline and dline were ongoing problems.  

 

The opposite reaction is that what several of you were complaining about was simply the reality of the NFL.   It's not often that we're going to see a team go 15-2 or better, and even 14-3 is an accomplishment.   With rare exceptions, the best teams in the league have weaknesses, struggle in some games, come out flat and lose, whatever.   For years, for example, the Pats would start something like 3-4 or 4-3 and look ugly, and many of us, including me, would say the long-awaited decline of the Pats was here, only to have the Pats win the AFCE, get to the championship, often at home, and go to the Super Bowl.  There are ugly matchups on teams' schedules.   Go back and look at the Bills' regular season games in the Super Bowl era - they were up and down all year.  It's tough to win in the NFL.

 

Moreover, the reality of the draft and the salary cap is that all teams are weak at some positions.  It simply isn't possible to have quality talent at 22 positions.  Beyond that, the reality of managing a roster is that every GM makes mistakes on some players.  In hindsight, we can say it's poor talent evaluation, and that's certainly possible, but examples of poor talent evaluation are all over the league.   How about the teams that didn't draft Gabriel Davis.   Some pretty poor talent evaluation there, some might say.   But the reality is that it's hard to know which guys coming out of college are going to mature into quality players at their positions, particularly because what's asked of players at positions in the NFL keeps evolving.    

 

Managing a roster is messy and difficult, and you're probably doing a good job if you get it right on 70% of the players.   Coaching a team through a season is messy and difficult, and you're probably doing a good job if you win 70% of your games.   The real question is how do you get from 70% to 80%, and it's too simplistic to say "be better at acquiring Dline talent."

[John from Riverside]

3 hours ago, Lost said:

 

Easy.  There were clearly a lot of games last season where they just weren't clicking.  And most of the time that was due to lack of protection from the OL.    As we see how training camp is progressing, its pretty easy to see that could be a potential problem for us again.   That being said, when the offense is clicking and the OL is healthy and doing their job, no team can stop us.   Our 7th ranked offense came from those 10 or so games where they were playing lights out.  There were 5 or 6 games where it was the defense keeping us alive.  

Now hold the phone here are we comparing ourselves to the rest of the league last year or just in fans feelings of how we should have been doing?

[BillsVet]

9 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said:

Don't worry. EO is here with his amazing pass rush win rate and defeats rate to save the day.

 

Maybe when Oliver starts getting more than 60% of the snaps he'll approach that.  Maybe. 

 

This is another reason why McD's defensive scheme needs an overhaul because he invests high picks and UFA dollars into Dlinemen who are not on the field upwards of 40-50% of the snaps.   And that's his vision of defense, the 8-9 man DL rotation, which he'll never evaluate nor adapt.  So you get a top 10 pick at DT who in his seasons starting has a 54% and 58% snap count rate. 

[Warcodered]

Different angle from before.

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Warcodered