Question on PSL's

[Stroke 17]

So anybody familiar with PSL's and how they work. For instance, I have had seasons for 45 years, will pay the PSL fee in 4 years and I will be 70 at that time. Fair enough.

 

I see where it is a one time fee for life, doing the math a younger fan would have many more years as a season ticket holder than us older fans. 

For any familiar with PSL's what happens to my seat/ticket when I die or can't go as I age.

 

I guess it could work for younger fans also' what happens when life changes and season tix are not feasible.

 

[Warcodered]

 

 

said you could sell your license to someone else so I'd imagine you could transfer it to someone else if you wanted to.

[eee1776]

I live in Charlotte, NC where I think this whole mess started. I have friends that either sold there PSL's and made a profit. Or sold theme for even money. PSL's; in my opinion it holds the seat license holder hostage. The only benefit is to the Owners of Football teams, a cheap way to pay them back for building a stadium. Basically, it's the same benefit you have now at High Mark without having to buy a seat for the privilege of buying your game tickets. Wait until you seat the cost of good seats. Watch a panther game, it's all corporate seating.

Anyway, it just my opinion. 

[Mc1320]

Basically, it’s like a stock - you buy the PSL, then the tickets each season.  If you no longer want to hold the PSL, there will be a marketplace run buy the Bills where you can sell the license to someone else.  Depending on the demand, you can either make money or lose money.

 

I live in Baltimore and if you got in on the initial sale of the PSL’s for the Ravens Stadium you would have made a decent return on your PSLs at this point.

[ExiledInIllinois]

47 minutes ago, Mc1320 said:

Basically, it’s like a stock - you buy the PSL, then the tickets each season.  If you no longer want to hold the PSL, there will be a marketplace run buy the Bills where you can sell the license to someone else.  Depending on the demand, you can either make money or lose money.

 

I live in Baltimore and if you got in on the initial sale of the PSL’s for the Ravens Stadium you would have made a decent return on your PSLs at this point.

Like a pyramid scheme. 

[shane nelson]

I live in NJ and have Giants seat to crave my FB addiction.  PSL's are only for Giant games with first dibs on concerts, i assume that all PSL will be the same.  They allowed you 3 years to pay for the PSL, so not a huge check at one time.  I did some research and PSL have been. a decent rate for return, however Metlife is way to big and the Giants suck so there is no aftermarket.  The fact that new stadium is go to be 60,000 is a blessing for PSL owners.  And its Buffalo  

[ProcessTruster]

Guess I need to get to more games in the next 4 years... that's the Bills window anyway.  

Erie County can choke on the 15 event per year, big albatross , after that.     

 

Still not buying that a tiny market like WNY benefits from a $1.4+B stadium ,relative to the cost.   For example, I don't see the NFL banging on Green Bay to build something new.   How is it that Green Bay gets away with it, but WNY needs to cave in to the NFL to the detriment of the average fan, the county and the state? 

[BarleyNY]

Purchase of a PSL allows and obligates the season ticket holder to purchase season tickets every year.  You won’t be able to purchase them without one.  Also won’t be able to decline purchase of your season tickets without selling or losing your PSL.  This last point is an important one.  If the team goes on a bad run and there is low demand for PSLs and season tickets, then the PSL holders would have a tough decision.  The choices would be to: 1) continue to buy season tickets they might not want, 2) sell their PSLs at a loss or 3) if there is no PSL market walk away and allow their PSLs to revert back to the team.  In the last instance the team could sell those seats as single game tickets until demand picked back up.  At that time the team could resell the PSLs and pocket that money.

[atlbillsfan1975]

6 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Like a pyramid scheme. 

How?

[Heavy Kevi]

6 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Like a pyramid scheme. 

 

Not really.

 

Pyramid schemes require constant "growth" of the lower levels of the pyramid, and the money flows upward from any new recruits. It fails when (undoubtedly) it runs out of "victims" with new money to pour in.

 

This is supply and demand. There is a fixed number of seats (static supply), and over the years as demand ebbs and flows, the psl can gain or lose value. Not a true "supply and demand" where manufacturers (or opec) can manipulate pricing with supply, but really not anything like a pyramid scheme.

[BobbyC81]

6 hours ago, Mc1320 said:

Basically, it’s like a stock - you buy the PSL, then the tickets each season.  If you no longer want to hold the PSL, there will be a marketplace run buy the Bills where you can sell the license to someone else.  Depending on the demand, you can either make money or lose money.

 

I live in Baltimore and if you got in on the initial sale of the PSL’s for the Ravens Stadium you would have made a decent return on your PSLs at this point.

How about this one?  When the Raiders moved back to Oakland, the agreement was for major renovations to the stadium.  PSLs were sold to pay for them.  Then a couple years ago, they said bye-bye.  Did the people get their money back or given opportunity to continue in Vegas?

[billsfanmiamioh]

13 minutes ago, ProcessTruster said:

Guess I need to get to more games in the next 4 years... that's the Bills window anyway.  

Erie County can choke on the 15 event per year, big albatross , after that.     

 

Still not buying that a tiny market like WNY benefits from a $1.4+B stadium ,relative to the cost.   For example, I don't see the NFL banging on Green Bay to build something new.   How is it that Green Bay gets away with it, but WNY needs to cave in to the NFL to the detriment of the average fan, the county and the state? 

Because Green Bay did a major renovation of their stadium 

[Mr Info]

There is a current PSL with my club seats. I do not recall the % of the ticket for the PSL but it is bundled in the total price I pay.
Unsure if this is the way it will continue to work for the new stadium. 

[ProcessTruster]

22 minutes ago, billsfanmiamioh said:

Because Green Bay did a major renovation of their stadium 

great.  let's do that and skip the PSLs and the burden on the community, who will get very little use out of a new stadium, or the current one for that matter

 

this ain't LA.  Buffalo is not getting an outdoor Super Bowl in February.  An outdoor stadium will be useless 8 months out of the year. 

 

 It all seems negative to me.  Not seeing any positives out of this.   

[stuvian]

The real reason why the NFL won't allow any more teams to operate under the Green Bay model is that as a community owned team, the Packers have to publish their financial details.

 

The NFL doesn't want that level of transparency and is more secretive than the CIA.

 

Take the city of St. Louis' lawsuit against the league for the Rams relocation. The settlement called for disclosure of finances to back up its claims. Instead the NFL just opted to stroke a cheque for over 700 million. 

 

You can still be a season ticket holder without a PSL in some markets albeit in the 300s. If you want to remain a season ticket holder and refuse to hand billionaires your hard earned money, ask your ticket rep about available season ticket seats without a PSL.

[NoSaint]

53 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Purchase of a PSL allows and obligates the season ticket holder to purchase season tickets every year.  You won’t be able to purchase them without one.  Also won’t be able to decline purchase of your season tickets without selling or losing your PSL.  This last point is an important one.  If the team goes on a bad run and there is low demand for PSLs and season tickets, then the PSL holders would have a tough decision.  The choices would be to: 1) continue to buy season tickets they might not want, 2) sell their PSLs at a loss or 3) if there is no PSL market walk away and allow their PSLs to revert back to the team.  In the last instance the team could sell those seats as single game tickets until demand picked back up.  At that time the team could resell the PSLs and pocket that money.

yes, you should only buy a PSL if you are in for good or bad. It is not for fair weather fans.

[BarleyNY]

20 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

yes, you should only buy a PSL if you are in for good or bad. It is not for fair weather fans.

I agree.  But people should also consider the possibility of having to move for work, moving for retirement, possible financial changes, etc.  what’re the odds of life getting in the way 5 or 10 years from now and how big of a financial impact would something like this be?

 

obviously everybody can make their own financial decisions, but it is easy for people to get caught up in the moment of something like this.  

Edited March 29, 2022 by BarleyNY

[vincec]

PSLs are just another way for the super rich to skim money off everyone else. There is zero benefit to fans. They pay more, with new restrictions, for the same thing they’ve been getting up to now. This is so that the owners pay even less for a stadium that benefits them financially almost exclusively.

 

But as has been said, it’s supply and demand. If you want the supply, then you need to bend over.

[GottaRun]

1 hour ago, ProcessTruster said:

great.  let's do that and skip the PSLs and the burden on the community

That train has sailed.

[corta765]

1 hour ago, ProcessTruster said:

Still not buying that a tiny market like WNY benefits from a $1.4+B stadium ,relative to the cost.   For example, I don't see the NFL banging on Green Bay to build something new.   How is it that Green Bay gets away with it, but WNY needs to cave in to the NFL to the detriment of the average fan, the county and the state? 

 

I swear to god some of you live under a rock and pay zero attention to anything. Few things:

 

-The Packers are owned by the community something the NFL and owners loath which is why it will never happen again. Because of that they can do as they please for fans in a far more friendly way then any other market

-Lambeau went through $415 million in renovations per 2020 cost

-The Packers have invested $65 million in the title town project next door with more funds coming

-If you have seen Lambeau since the renovations its absolutely gorgeous and they did a superb job. They didn't settle for "the average fan", its a football palace and great for fans of all types

-The Ralph was forever limited in expansion/renovation because it was built 30 ft under the surface. To expand the concourse properly would force the Bills out of the stadium for years with a renovation and unless you want to go to UB or Cuse or Penn State then new was the way to go

-The upper deck has a legit safety timeframe before it has major structural issues and by opening the stadium in 2026 they beat the cost of that fix by barely a year assuming nothing structurally faults before then.

-The stadium itself is a nightmare for primetime games to setup something that is brought up regularly and was part of the reason why during the drought years our primetime exposure was so limited regardless of team play

-The stadiums construction also creates an awful wind effect as shown during the Pats game because of how they built. Just by simply moving the stadium 90 degrees in itself will help fans. The fact they plan on enclosing it similar to Tottenhams soccer stadium should create a far better fan atmosphere in terms of wind and comfort. The Ralph has amazing sightlines.. other then that fan wise it gets rough at points when the weather is poor.

-The cost to actually renovate the Ralph is about a billion dollars. Regardless of my feelings on public money in the equation, if you are going to spend a billion you might as well do it properly with a brand new stadium that has the bells and whistles, not just fan wise, but in terms of actual construction and technology so the stadium itself is far more sound

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by corta765

[T master]

2 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

Guess I need to get to more games in the next 4 years... that's the Bills window anyway.  

Erie County can choke on the 15 event per year, big albatross , after that.     

 

Still not buying that a tiny market like WNY benefits from a $1.4+B stadium ,relative to the cost.   For example, I don't see the NFL banging on Green Bay to build something new.   How is it that Green Bay gets away with it, but WNY needs to cave in to the NFL to the detriment of the average fan, the county and the state? 

 

If you have ever been to Green Bay you might understand that place has been completely redone or at least it looks like it has the place is a shrine ! 

[longtimebillsfan]

2 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

Guess I need to get to more games in the next 4 years... that's the Bills window anyway.  

Erie County can choke on the 15 event per year, big albatross , after that.     

 

Still not buying that a tiny market like WNY benefits from a $1.4+B stadium ,relative to the cost.   For example, I don't see the NFL banging on Green Bay to build something new.   How is it that Green Bay gets away with it, but WNY needs to cave in to the NFL to the detriment of the average fan, the county and the state? 

In fairness, Green Bay completed a major stadium a few years ago similar to what Kansas City did.

 

Western New York had the same option, but the study determined that the renovation would add only 20 years to the life of Highmark stadium.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Buffalo really should be community owned...

[Dopey]

Between the 65" TV, blue tooth sound system, furniture and bar I built, I'm in for $5500 for my man cave. I get to choose my neighbor (not some drunk @&#) and the weather is always nice. September and October games on the back deck with my grill and smoker set up. If you have a medical weed card, you get parking preference and we can do the tailgating festivities like beer pong, cornhole etc. No table jumping! This will be the 7th straight season. I do try to make 1 home game. I'm September or October.  Sooo much better, IMO.

[PromoTheRobot]

2 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Buffalo really should be community owned...

 

Can you imagine trying to decide who to draft, hire, sign, trade, etc?

[djp14150]

5 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

Purchase of a PSL allows and obligates the season ticket holder to purchase season tickets every year.  You won’t be able to purchase them without one.  Also won’t be able to decline purchase of your season tickets without selling or losing your PSL.  This last point is an important one.  If the team goes on a bad run and there is low demand for PSLs and season tickets, then the PSL holders would have a tough decision.  The choices would be to: 1) continue to buy season tickets they might not want, 2) sell their PSLs at a loss or 3) if there is no PSL market walk away and allow their PSLs to revert back to the team.  In the last instance the team could sell those seats as single game tickets until demand picked back up.  At that time the team could resell the PSLs and pocket that money.

 

this is the key in the legal spdocument…

 

if yiu win a PSL, do you also have to buy season tickets or can you pass on it for a season.

 

this is subject to NY stsate law

[RyanC883]

5 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

Guess I need to get to more games in the next 4 years... that's the Bills window anyway.  

Erie County can choke on the 15 event per year, big albatross , after that.     

 

Still not buying that a tiny market like WNY benefits from a $1.4+B stadium ,relative to the cost.   For example, I don't see the NFL banging on Green Bay to build something new.   How is it that Green Bay gets away with it, but WNY needs to cave in to the NFL to the detriment of the average fan, the county and the state? 

 

without a dome to hold events year round the PSL really is less value.  Great point about Green Bay, or Bears for that reason.  Yeah they renovated, but so did we. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

24 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Can you imagine trying to decide who to draft, hire, sign, trade, etc?

We're a very opinionated bunch! 😆 

[RyanC883]

4 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

great.  let's do that and skip the PSLs and the burden on the community, who will get very little use out of a new stadium, or the current one for that matter

 

this ain't LA.  Buffalo is not getting an outdoor Super Bowl in February.  An outdoor stadium will be useless 8 months out of the year. 

 

 It all seems negative to me.  Not seeing any positives out of this.   

 

exactly.  there will be increased travel to games because they are inside, wait, nevermind.  The whole thing is ill conceived.  I don’t live in NYS (Pgh) but this stadium will only serve Buffalo at most late April to October for non-football and the rest of the time is used once a week.  

3 hours ago, longtimebillsfan said:

In fairness, Green Bay completed a major stadium a few years ago similar to what Kansas City did.

 

Western New York had the same option, but the study determined that the renovation would add only 20 years to the life of Highmark stadium.

 

that study seems suspect given that Soldier Field is still around.   Wrigley, etc.  

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/psls-not-expected-to-price-fans-out-in-new-bills-stadium
 

PSL's not expected to price fans out in new Bills stadium
 

 

not that it gives a price or something definitive 🙄

 

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

great.  let's do that and skip the PSLs and the burden on the community, who will get very little use out of a new stadium, or the current one for that matter

 

Read the articles.  It's not economically feasible to rebuild the stadium  It would cost nearly as much to rebuild the stadium as to build the new one, the rebuild stadium would have a shorter life span, and it wouldn't be as nice.  

 

The options are build a stadium or lose the team.  Pretty simple.  Sounds like you're prepared to lose the team.  I'm not a New York State taxpayer, so I'm all for a new stadium.   I can see how some state and local taxpayers might feel differently.  

[wjag]

The Permanent Sucker License (PSL) skinny

 

1.  If you fail to buy season tickets EACH season, you must either sell you PSL or surrender it to the BIlls.  The Bills can then resell surrendered PSLs.

2. My friend sold his Baltimore PSL for very little extra return after holding it for 10+ years

3. The closer you get to the field, the higher the PSL cost (of course)

4. They can be transferred in your estate, but see number 1 above

[Shaw66]

12 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

that study seems suspect given that Soldier Field is still around.   Wrigley, etc.  

Soldier field is a brand new stadium.  They kept the facade and built a new stadium inside it.  

 

Wrigley field seats 40,000.   If you want to remove the upper deck at HighMark and have 40,000 for Bills games, sorry, that doesn't meet NFL minimums.  

 

Literally hundreds of smart people have worked for 10 years to find the best solution to a new stadium in Buffalo.   When they all finally agree on a path forward, some people think that they have a better idea.   If there was a better idea, some people would have suggested it before now.  

 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, wjag said:

The Permanent Sucker License (PSL) skinny

 

1.  If you fail to buy season tickets EACH season, you must either sell you PSL or surrender it to the BIlls.  The Bills can then resell surrendered PSLs.

2. My friend sold his Baltimore PSL for very little extra return after holding it for 10+ years

3. The closer you get to the field, the higher the PSL cost (of course)

4. They can be transferred in your estate, but see number 1 above

And the real problem with seat licenses, as you point out, is that they often become worthless.   The Jets forced a lot of people to buy seat licenses, and three years later they were selling season tickets in the same section without requiring a PSL.   So why did those people have buy them?

[DieHardFan]

Key question for me is whether the PSLs will be sold to current STHs on a senority basis like the last time they revamped the stadium or will present day greed set aside the best ones for pegula family, friends, and corporate cronies?

[PromoTheRobot]

25 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

exactly.  there will be increased travel to games because they are inside, wait, nevermind.  The whole thing is ill conceived.  I don’t live in NYS (Pgh) but this stadium will only serve Buffalo at most late April to October for non-football and the rest of the time is used once a week.  

 

that study seems suspect given that Soldier Field is still around.   Wrigley, etc.  

 

Soldier field was rebuilt from the ground up. All that is original are the roman columns at the gate. It's only 20 years old.

1 minute ago, DieHardFan said:

Key question for me is whether the PSLs will be sold to current STHs on a senority basis like the last time they revamped the stadium or will present day greed set aside the best ones for pegula family, friends, and corporate cronies?

 

I believe Bills STHers get first crack by seniority. 

[fasteddie]

1 minute ago, DieHardFan said:

Key question for me is whether the PSLs will be sold to current STHs on a senority basis like the last time they revamped the stadium or will present day greed set aside the best ones for pegula family, friends, and corporate cronies?

They have suites set aside for the owners, etc.

[wjag]

11 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

And the real problem with seat licenses, as you point out, is that they often become worthless.   The Jets forced a lot of people to buy seat licenses, and three years later they were selling season tickets in the same section without requiring a PSL.   So why did those people have buy them?

 

Yep..  The only person(s) this hurts is/are the loyal season tickets holders.  The rest of us who catch a game or two, will buy single season games priced based on location and the record of the Bills at the time.  Season ticket holders will be given a choice of comparable seats to what they current hold and given a defined window of time to either accept the new seats, choose new seats (that aren't being held for other ST holders), or pass on the opportunity.  And the loyal season ticket holders will be held to legal extortion by the Bills and NFL.

Edited March 29, 2022 by wjag

[PromoTheRobot]

15 minutes ago, wjag said:

The Permanent Sucker License (PSL) skinny

 

1.  If you fail to buy season tickets EACH season, you must either sell you PSL or surrender it to the BIlls.  The Bills can then resell surrendered PSLs.

2. My friend sold his Baltimore PSL for very little extra return after holding it for 10+ years

3. The closer you get to the field, the higher the PSL cost (of course)

4. They can be transferred in your estate, but see number 1 above

 

You have to think of PSL's as a user's contribution to the cost of construction. I mean if you are a season ticket holder you get more benefit from a new stadium than someone who doesn't.

[Buffalo Boy]

13 hours ago, eee1776 said:

I live in Charlotte, NC where I think this whole mess started. I have friends that either sold there PSL's and made a profit. Or sold theme for even money. PSL's; in my opinion it holds the seat license holder hostage. The only benefit is to the Owners of Football teams, a cheap way to pay them back for building a stadium. Basically, it's the same benefit you have now at High Mark without having to buy a seat for the privilege of buying your game tickets. Wait until you seat the cost of good seats. Watch a panther game, it's all corporate seating.

Anyway, it just my opinion. 

    I also live in Clt, moved here in 98 right when the Panthers started playing in the stadium here.

    I know multiple PSL holders. You have to renew your seasons every year or the PSL is lost. 
    Also, the best time to sell is also the best time to watch . PSL values are analogous to housing values in as much as they are defined by the market conditions. You can sell when your team sucks but you won’t get that much for them.

    I don’t know a single “ Die Hard” Panther’s fan. All the people I know who have PSLs sell most of their tickets during the season. 
   My guess is the price of tickets is about to go through the roof. Joe Six pack is pretty much priced out of the lower bowl and much of the upper bowl here.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Buffalo Boy

[RunninRebel37]

Live in Vegas and a season tix holder for Raiders. PSLs suck - you pay a one time fee over an agreed upon time - typically 4 years - with a percentage down when buying. The hook is, you NEED to buy season tix EVERY YEAR (till eternity) in order to keep your seats. Should you ever decline to buy season tix you lose your seats and aren’t refunded the cost of PSLs. It’s a racket because there’s really no reason to charge people for seats twice (PSL and season tix) but kinda forced people to remain season tix holders. One small benefit is early access tix sales to events at the venue, but also creates a crazy second market for events at said venue.