Zach Moss needs to be the lead back

[gobills404]

10 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

That’s cute how about just use a little bit of common sense and take one long run out of motors stats and see what they look like give me Mosses Consistent production pass protection and receiving ability any day

If you remove singletary's longest run (46 yards) and moss' longest run (10 yards) singletary still has a higher yards per carry.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

25 minutes ago, Fan boy '92 said:

You sound familiar. Were you head of Rex Ryan's analytics department?

The YPC stats are a little misleading. I think you posted them above, but I can’t find that post for some reason. I do think Motor has looked better at times than last year, and his long TD shouldn’t be “discounted” (though it obviously inflated his YPC). But Moss’s use in short yardage situations probably depresses his YPC.  So, I think the stats don’t tell the whole story. 
 

I guess my main point is that Moss has really moved ahead here in the last two games, and I think if he were given the lion’s share of the snaps, the productivity from the position would probably be better and more consistent. 

[LABILLBACKER]

Moss is just flat out a more complete back. Better runner, blocker and pass catcher. Devin's first 2 games looked promising but he took a step back against WFT. I think its Zach's job to lose. We absolutely have to have the capacity to throw to our RB.

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, 34-78-83 said:

Round and Round we go! 🤪

 

Both guys have specific skill sets that work for this team differently on a game by game basis. It's a committee approach. The team seems fully content with that. Likely, barring injury or the fumble doghouse, we'll see each of them leading different games in touches.

Yes, but there's a tactical advantage to having your best running back threat on the field on first down.   That's the down when you can attack the whole field, so that's when you want your best running back out there.   Regardless of how the touches vary from week to week, you want the opponent to have to plan for the guy as a threat on most of the offense's plays.  Singletary's been okay, but Moss seems more consistently to find opportunities for an 8-15 yard gain.  I'd start Moss and force the opponent to plan for his brand of explosiveness.  

[LeGOATski]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Yes, but there's a tactical advantage to having your best running back threat on the field on first down.   That's the down when you can attack the whole field, so that's when you want your best running back out there.   Regardless of how the touches vary from week to week, you want the opponent to have to plan for the guy as a threat on most of the offense's plays.  Singletary's been okay, but Moss seems more consistently to find opportunities for an 8-15 yard gain.  I'd start Moss and force the opponent to plan for his brand of explosiveness.  

Outside of week 1 when Moss was scratched, teams have had to plan for both since last year. It doesn't make a difference who starts.

[Fan boy '92]

8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Yes, but there's a tactical advantage to having your best running back threat on the field on first down.   That's the down when you can attack the whole field, so that's when you want your best running back out there.   Regardless of how the touches vary from week to week, you want the opponent to have to plan for the guy as a threat on most of the offense's plays.  Singletary's been okay, but Moss seems more consistently to find opportunities for an 8-15 yard gain.  I'd start Moss and force the opponent to plan for his brand of explosiveness.  

Right, there is an advantage to having your best back on the field on first down and I'm not ready to hand the keys to a back with a four ypc and 25 yard career long run.

[MJS]

Just play the hot hand. Some weeks it will be Singletary. It's a committee backfield. It doesn't matter who you list first.

 

[Putin]

2 hours ago, Niagara Dude said:

Sorry but Devin is a backup or even third string RB,  Moss should be the starter and should some great receiving skills that Devin does not have

You can also add a better blocker to that as well 

[LeGOATski]

Next I'll be told that Motor is a "net negative"

[Shaw66]

8 minutes ago, Fan boy '92 said:

Right, there is an advantage to having your best back on the field on first down and I'm not ready to hand the keys to a back with a four ypc and 25 yard career long run.

I got it.  All I'm saying is I like what I've seen from Moss better.   I get that others could see it another way.  I'm not saying Daboll is a fool not to be giving Moss more touches.   He's not the clear and obvious winner in the competition to be the start.   I just think he'd be a better choice.  

[Fan in Chicago]

2 hours ago, 34-78-83 said:

Round and Round we go! 🤪

 

Both guys have specific skill sets that work for this team differently on a game by game basis. It's a committee approach. The team seems fully content with that. Likely, barring injury or the fumble doghouse, we'll see each of them leading different games in touches.

My thoughts are in this vein. Which back we use against which opponent and which phase of the game will be according to the pre- and in- game plan. As an example, we would have been much better off against the Steelers if Moss was playing. It seems there was something else going on which caused McD to make him a healthy scratch - perhaps short term pain for long term gain. 

[Fan boy '92]

14 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I got it.  All I'm saying is I like what I've seen from Moss better.   I get that others could see it another way.  I'm not saying Daboll is a fool not to be giving Moss more touches.   He's not the clear and obvious winner in the competition to be the start.   I just think he'd be a better choice.  

Sure, reasonable minds can differ. Let's let it play out over the next few weeks and revisit.

[JohninMinn.]

It's seems fans are in denial of the fact that Singletary is by far the slowest back in the league. He is a liability.

[That's No Moon]

Singletary is great side to side but he's slow so he can't really exploit the space he can make for himself. Yes. I know he had a long TD run. Every single back in the NFL would have scored on that run. I'm talking about play in play out. It doesn't help that his receiving skills are subpar at best and the OC will do things like split him out wide. If I'm the defense I invite you to throw the ball there. Please. Do that. If Daboll is going to run an offense that wants to pass this much you need to have a back on the field that can catch the ball and threaten the defense and Singletary isn't that guy. Moss, for want of someone better, is.

2 minutes ago, JohninMinn. said:

It's seems fans are in denial of the fact that Singletary is by far the slowest back in the league. He is a liability.

One of the quickest side to side and the slowest forward. It's a shame. He makes some nice creases for himself but the acceleration just isn't there to really take advantage of it.

[ganesh]

3 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

In this past game it did feel like Moss was more decisive and was able to get more yards after contact than Devin.

 

He has a more bruising style that I think is a bit more effective when our backs hit that second level of a defense. Devin is a bit more of a finesse RB that can make folks miss if he is given space. It is up to Dabs on how to best align what they bring and use them effectively.

 

 

 

 

He still fumbles the football.   

[Fan boy '92]

20 minutes ago, JohninMinn. said:

It's seems fans are in denial of the fact that Singletary is by far the slowest back in the league. He is a liability.

40 yd dash combine results:

Devin Singletary-4.66

Zach Moss-4.65

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

The YPC stats are a little misleading. I think you posted them above, but I can’t find that post for some reason. I do think Motor has looked better at times than last year, and his long TD shouldn’t be “discounted” (though it obviously inflated his YPC). But Moss’s use in short yardage situations probably depresses his YPC.  So, I think the stats don’t tell the whole story. 
 

I guess my main point is that Moss has really moved ahead here in the last two games, and I think if he were given the lion’s share of the snaps, the productivity from the position would probably be better and more consistent. 

Hard to move people off of their positions once they’re in trenched Moss has looked better And offers more and at one point the bills also thought this when he started taking motors carries last season

 

[WideNine]

26 minutes ago, ganesh said:

He still fumbles the football.   

 

This is true of both our backs I think...

 

Those second and third efforts fighting for extra yards are somewhat dual-edged. 

 

We praise the relentless effort, yet those efforts often come with forced fumbles.

 

 

[Solomon Grundy]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

Just play the hot hand. Some weeks it will be Singletary. It's a committee backfield. It doesn't matter who you list first.

 

Playing the hot hand seems to be something Daboll refuses to do. There's an axiom in the RB community that the more carries they get, the better they become. I'd like to see that with the Bills sometimes

Edited September 28, 2021 by Solomon Grundy

[bobobonators]

4 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

I know Devin has improved from last year, but watching moss and DS on the field, Moss just brings so much more to the table. He hits the hole harder, is a short yardage bruiser, is very good out of the backfield catching the ball, and is a very good blocker.

 

Beyond that, if the Bills go to that read option/RPO stretch action they ran a lot of during the WFT game, Moss is a much more instinctive and decisive runner. Devin was lost out there on those runs, just getting swallowed up looking for a crease. 
 

The stats from last game bear this out, with Moss having 13/60 (plus 30 rec yards), and Singletary with 11/26. 
 

I think we need both guys, but I would like to see the split be more like 80/20, than 50/50.

Eh im not sure. To me theyre very interchangeable. Neither is clearly better nor worse than the other. I think that’ll show itself to be true as they continue to flip-flop their success from week to week. 

[Special K]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

He still fumbles the football.   

 

Singletary has fumbled the ball ball more times than Moss this year....lucky for DS, all his fumbles went out of bounds, but he still fumbled the ball.

 

1 hour ago, MJS said:

Just play the hot hand. Some weeks it will be Singletary. It's a committee backfield. It doesn't matter who you list first.

 

 

I’m sure it matters to them who starts. It also sends a bad message to the locker room if you aren’t starting the player who is playing the best at the position.

[Nelius]

I agree that Moss has been the better back, but I'm not sure I'd change anything. Maybe I'd like to see them go with the hot hand a bit more which would likely be Moss, but we're 5th in the NFL in rushing right now so I think things are working. I also prefer our approach to Minnesota's, who is #4 in rushing, and just runs Dalvin Cook into the ground every year. 

[Thurman#1]

6 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

Zach Moss needs to be the lead back

 

 

Not really feeling this. Certainly not at anywhere near the 80/20 ratio you're suggesting. 

 

I'd expect somewhere between 40/60 and 60/40 depending on what situations arrive.

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, Special K said:

 

Singletary has fumbled the ball ball more times than Moss this year....lucky for DS, all his fumbles went out of bounds, but he still fumbled the ball.

 

 

I’m sure it matters to them who starts. It also sends a bad message to the locker room if you aren’t starting the player who is playing the best at the position.

 

 

It may matter to Moss and Singletary, but I greatly doubt it matters to the coaches. If it did they'd pick a guy and stick with him.

 

And it doesn't send any kind of bad message, because the coaches feel, and doubtless communicate, that they are playing these guys for game-specific advantages in who they start. This isn't going to piss anybody off or send bad messages, the idea's ridiculous. It's not like the Bills are doing something wild here by going back and forth. It's S.O.P. these days on many teams. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Yes, but there's a tactical advantage to having your best running back threat on the field on first down.   That's the down when you can attack the whole field, so that's when you want your best running back out there.   Regardless of how the touches vary from week to week, you want the opponent to have to plan for the guy as a threat on most of the offense's plays.  Singletary's been okay, but Moss seems more consistently to find opportunities for an 8-15 yard gain.  I'd start Moss and force the opponent to plan for his brand of explosiveness.  

 

 

Why not force the opponent to prepare for both ... to not know? The way we have it now, they already have to prepare for Moss's brand of explosiveness. But they also have to prepare for Singletary's brand of explosiveness. 

 

As for your argument that Moss more consistently finds 8 - 15 yard opportunities, I'd argue that's recency bias and the unfair decision to try to gerrymander out the longer runs of both guys. Here are all of the gains for both of them of over eight yards. (I went play-by-play, and I could have missed one ... please feel free to check my work).

 

SINGLETARY eight or more yard carries  (35 rushes for 180 yards)

Pitt 10:35 1st Q 8 yards

Pitt 8:35 4th Q 15 yards

Pitt 7:46 4th Q 25 yards

Mia 12:33 1stQ 46 yards

Mia 1:15 2nd Q 8 yards

 

MOSS eight or more yard carries  (21 rushes for 86 yards)

Mia 5:16 1st Q 10 yards

Wash 14:59 2nd Q 8 yards

Wash 0:45 3rd Q 9 yards

Wash 5:21 4th Q 8 yards

 

They appear to be pretty similar with Moss getting slightly more eight-yarders per carry, but the difference probably being statistically insignificant. But Singletary appears to get more longer higher-impact plays.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

7 hours ago, balln said:

garbage time run against PIT late.

 

without the long td run. his avg was like 2.2 yds per carry

 

It wasn't garbage time. It was a 10 point game with 12 minutes left in the 4th quarter. 

 

Just use both of them. They don't need a lead back.

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, Nelius said:

I agree that Moss has been the better back, but I'm not sure I'd change anything. Maybe I'd like to see them go with the hot hand a bit more which would likely be Moss, but we're 5th in the NFL in rushing right now so I think things are working. I also prefer our approach to Minnesota's, who is #4 in rushing, and just runs Dalvin Cook into the ground every year. 

I like the platoon but asking Moss to get 60% is not unreasonable. He's the better runner and pass catcher. They both fumble equally so that's a wash.

[34-78-83]

11 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Yes, but there's a tactical advantage to having your best running back threat on the field on first down.   That's the down when you can attack the whole field, so that's when you want your best running back out there.   Regardless of how the touches vary from week to week, you want the opponent to have to plan for the guy as a threat on most of the offense's plays.  Singletary's been okay, but Moss seems more consistently to find opportunities for an 8-15 yard gain.  I'd start Moss and force the opponent to plan for his brand of explosiveness.  

1st down where though? Between the 20's that should be Singletary against most opponents as long as we are in 11 or 10 personnel.

[Special K]

9 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

It may matter to Moss and Singletary, but I greatly doubt it matters to the coaches. If it did they'd pick a guy and stick with him.

 

And it doesn't send any kind of bad message, because the coaches feel, and doubtless communicate, that they are playing these guys for game-specific advantages in who they start. This isn't going to piss anybody off or send bad messages, the idea's ridiculous. It's not like the Bills are doing something wild here by going back and forth. It's S.O.P. these days on many teams. 

 

I’m not saying they shouldn’t play both guys, they absolutely should, but being number 1 on the depth chart matters to the players. IMO, Moss is the better back, and should start even if they are going to continue to split carries.

[Alphadawg7]

Devin is better at creating space when none is there as he is a lot shiftier and I think he fits Dabolls system better beause Daboll is terrible at designing run plays with clear holes.  Daboll might be the worst run game OC in the NFL, and one of the worst I have ever seen.  If we ran more from run formations, I wonder who would be the better back, Moss or Devin because Moss does hit the hole hard too.  But given the way we call run plays, I think Devin's ability to be shifty and find the lanes has more consistent value from a running perspective and why he has a higher YPC career average IMO.  

 

Moss on the other hand is better suited for our system than Devin as a receiver out of the back field and also for the tough yards.  So I think they compliment each other well.  

 

But, this is another example of "hot takes"...Devin ran great the first 2 weeks, and McD also said he would go with the hot hand in a game to game scenario.  So just because Moss was more productive this week doesn't all of a sudden wipe out how effective Devin was the previous 2 weeks, including a 45 yard TD run.  Devin was arguably our best offensive player week 1 and then he had another strong game week 2 when our passing offense was still fluttering a bit with another poor showing by the OL week 2.  

 

Personally, I think Devin will function as the "starting RB" all year, and will get his 12+ carries a game with Moss still getting 8-10 carries and probably a little more action in the receiving game than Devin has his hands are more reliable.  Both are going to be good players for us and I still think Devin hits 1000 yards rushing by years end as I think its clear Daboll is at least trying to get the run game more established this year even though he still runs too often from funky formations to really get that ground game consistency. 

[Alphadawg7]

15 hours ago, balln said:

garbage time run against PIT late.

 

without the long td run. his avg was like 2.2 yds per carry

 

Wow what a terrible take.  The drives on Pitt were incredibly important and needed as we still had a shot in that game at that time.  Second, I utterly hate when people say "take away this and then its this".  You can do that with any player in the league and substantially change their stats.  Its such a foolish statement, especially when you don't do that to any of the comparable players.  

 

Bottom line is Devin as a rookie splitting time with Gore was just a few rushes behind the league leader in most carries over 20+ yards, and he only had like 150 carries.  He has a career rushing average near 5 ypc, so this nonsense of wiping out one play to paint a different picture than what his career has shown is utterly ridiculous and has not value what so ever.  

 

Despite your clearly biased opinion, Devin has done a great job the first 2 weeks and one could argue he should have been given even more work in the Steelers game while our passing game was struggling instead of throwing 51 times, he was literally our best player on offense that week while everyone else, literally the entirety of the remaining 10 guys on the field were all struggling.  

 

Moss and Devin compliment each other well and they will both get plenty of touches this year, especially since Daboll seems to be trying to get the run game more established after the week 1 game.  

[Mr. WEO]

Then how will Singletary get his 1000 yards rushing?  This thread makes no sense!!

[BigAl2526]

I posted elsewhere that I think Buffalo should start Moss when they play a team with a good physical defensive line.  I think when Buffalo plays a team with a soso defensive line, they should start Singletary.  That's because Moss seems better and making something out of nothing.  When the offensive line can blow holes in the defensive line, Singletary has more ability to make people miss when he gets into the open field.

[BananaB]

The only thing Singletary has over Moss is he’s a bit shiftier. I’m not even sure that matters when you are comparing slow RBs, I’d rather the guy who’s gonna put his head down and keep trucking forward. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

46 minutes ago, BananaB said:

The only thing Singletary has over Moss is he’s a bit shiftier. I’m not even sure that matters when you are comparing slow RBs, I’d rather the guy who’s gonna put his head down and keep trucking forward. 

 

DS shiftiness can create some significant extra yards in the way he hits the holes.  Moss is far better at turning the chicken s--t our offensive line produces and getting that extra yard or two.  

[berg1029]

On 9/27/2021 at 9:56 PM, LeGOATski said:

He fumbled in the Miami game... 🙄

Devin Singletary:  3 fumbles in 3 games this year

Zach Moss:  1 fumble in 2 years

 

And don't even get me started on the dropped passes

[JoshAllin]

On 9/27/2021 at 7:56 PM, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

I know Devin has improved from last year, but watching moss and DS on the field, Moss just brings so much more to the table. He hits the hole harder, is a short yardage bruiser, is very good out of the backfield catching the ball, and is a very good blocker.

 

Beyond that, if the Bills go to that read option/RPO stretch action they ran a lot of during the WFT game, Moss is a much more instinctive and decisive runner. Devin was lost out there on those runs, just getting swallowed up looking for a crease. 
 

The stats from last game bear this out, with Moss having 13/60 (plus 30 rec yards), and Singletary with 11/26. 
 

I think we need both guys, but I would like to see the split be more like 80/20, than 50/50.

Looked to me washington was more prepared for singletary after his big game the previous week. While moss ran loose. Now teams will be focused in on moss after his big game. I think 50/50 is still good plan or rotate each week 80/20 to keep teams guessing

[TwistofFate]

Aside from Moss' burst, power and balance, the main difference I've noticed is his vision and decision making. It's much faster and more natural than Singletary. 

 

Motor seems to never create. He tries to ram in a hole that's visibly not there. Moss seems to feel the flow of the play and anticipate lanes opening. 

 

Moss definitely needs more action. 

[Apocalypse Nuts]

Interesting (maybe only to me) that there's been so many threads about the OL struggles, esp passing protection, but in reality it all goes hand-in-hand, one would think.  Maybe it's just me and my totally amateur football eyes but when I see Singletary and/or Moss having crappy runs, I usually see a bunch of large guys in Bills uniforms getting pushed back into their way behind the line of scrimmage.  The sucked last year in run-blocking and I don't see a world of improvement so far this year.   And this is exactly why I did not want them to draft a running back in the first or second round this year.  Without major blocking improvement, would not have seen much immediate return on investment no matter who they would have drafted.

[Not at the table Karlos]

On 9/27/2021 at 8:04 PM, berg1029 said:

I love me some devin singletary, but he scares me.  Every time he touches the ball I feel like I'm waiting for him to fumble or drop the pass.  I'd prefer Moss just for ball security reasons alone. 

I don't trust either of them. They both struggle to hold on to the ball.