Bills switch to man coverage vs Steelers

[NewEra]

13 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

Not quite a "I know you are, but what am I", but close. Really close. 

Not quite like I give a flying **** what you think

[Jerboski]

They played well the first half 

the Steelers scored on every second half drive… 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

2 hours ago, Dr. Football said:

I’m not sure why they haven’t pursued some speed at corner, especially with all the trouble we had with covering Tyreek Hill!! Big problem as I see it. 

Parrino/Talbot in their last podcast before Labor Day referenced this very point, to say that this regime values sure handed open field tackling/immediate wrap up after catch above a straight line speed metric. If only we could have both?

[machine gun kelly]

I don’t see our defense as crumbling or anything descriptive with only 16 offensive pts. By Pittsburgh.  It’s as simple as offensive plays, play calling, and a terrible line performance against on of the best defensive lines in football.  Allen and company blew it.  The Bills offense didn’t execute.  Our defense looked better than the first half of last year.

 

We avg. 31 pts a game last year.  16 is never going to cut it.

[CSBill]

8 hours ago, Dr. Football said:

We need CBs that can excel at both man and zone!! I think T. White can but the others have a way to go. IMHO 😬

 

Yeah, I'm sure every team in the league says the same thing. Ugh 🤪

[CSBill]

6 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'll try one more time. 

 

The oft-quoted metric is that if a team holds their opponent to less than 20 points, they should generally win.

Let me say that again a little louder for the guys in the back: if a TEAM holds their opponent to less than 20 points, they should generally win.

 

It's a TEAM thing.  The defense doesn't get to sit back and say "hey 23 points?  Well ***** only 16 of 'em were ours, so who the ***** cares if we let the opponent score on every single drive in the 2nd half while the offense needed time to come from behind?  We did OUR job!"  That's not how football works.

 

Not sure anyone was saying that Hap. I think we all understand the total points is what really counts 🙂 - I think? The point of this discussion was the points the Defense gave up, which, if my math is correct, was 16. That is a pretty good day.

 

My general concern about the Defense: It seems the Steelers made adjustments at half-time and figure out how to move the ball. But the Bills Defense did not make any counter moves. Maybe that was the time to go back to the zone coverage. It was obvious to all, because of the short routes and intentional quick release strategy of Big Ben, we weren't going to get much pressure on him, so stay back, keep them in front of you. But having said that, we were one pass interference call and a bobbled ball that fell into the receivers hands away from a win--and in close games, those plays get magnified.

 

Having said that, while not perfect, they still played well. The Defense did their part. It was the Offense and ST that contributed the most to this loss.

 

I'm not worried about our D. It looked improved this weekend.

[Beast]

9 hours ago, Dr. Football said:

We need CBs that can excel at both man and zone!! I think T. White can but the others have a way to go. IMHO 😬

If you are expecting shut down corners across the roster you can wish in one hand and ***** in the other and see which one fills up quicker.

 

You guys and your expectations are straight from Never-Neverland.

 

The Bills have very good corners.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Beast

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

Two time the CBs were beat (long throw to Claypool; TD to Johnson) White and Wallace had perfect position, but the WR just made a great play.

 

Agree. Wallace and White did nothing wrong on those plays. The other guys get paid too. They made great plays on those balls. Wallace got beat and then failed to adjust on the DPI and there was one time Taron got beat in the slot in the 2nd half where he hesitated and let his guy get across his face rather than maintaining his leverage but otherwise I thought our corners played a really good game. 

[vincec]

9 hours ago, Dr. Football said:

We need CBs that can excel at both man and zone!! I think T. White can but the others have a way to go. IMHO 😬

Good man v man CBs come at a premium and there's no way that the Bills could afford two of them and still spend like they do on the DL, while still having some money left over for offense. Their decision is to spend on the DL (which generally has more impact on the game - "it all starts up front"), keep the DBs in zone most of the time and hope that the pressure generated helps the DBs in coverage. Against certain matchups it can be a problem, but overall I think it's a sound strategy.

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, vincec said:

Good man v man CBs come at a premium and there's no way that the Bills could afford two of them and still spend like they do on the DL, while still having some money left over for offense. Their decision is to spend on the DL (which generally has more impact on the game - "it all starts up front"), keep the DBs in zone most of the time and hope that the pressure generated helps the DBs in coverage. Against certain matchups it can be a problem, but overall I think it's a sound strategy.

 

The Bills still spend pretty high on their secondary because Hyde and Poyer don't come cheap. You can't have 4 paid studs up there. I'm sure they would have liked to find a #2 corner in the draft but it wasn't a deep corner draft so there were runs on them early. The four round 1 level talents had all gone before the Bills picked at #30, I only had two with 2nd round grades and they were both gone by #44 (and the third to go in round 2 who I had a 2/3 borderline on in Samuel) was gone by #47. Then the round 3 guys went at the top of the round too. So every time based on draft position the Bills would have been reaching down the board for need at corner. Just didn't fall for them. 

[vincec]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The Bills still spend pretty high on their secondary because Hyde and Poyer don't come cheap. You can't have 4 paid studs up there. I'm sure they would have liked to find a #2 corner in the draft but it wasn't a deep corner draft so there were runs on them early. The four round 1 level talents had all gone before the Bills picked at #30, I only had two with 2nd round grades and they were both gone by #44 (and the third to go in round 2 who I had a 2/3 borderline on in Samuel) was gone by #47. Then the round 3 guys went at the top of the round too. So every time based on draft position the Bills would have been reaching down the board for need at corner. Just didn't fall for them. 

If they spend a high pick on a corner and he works out, then he is almost certainly going to walk when his rookie contract is up because they couldn’t afford to keep him. So it would be a rental. I don’t think they see using their high picks in that way.

Edited September 14, 2021 by vincec

[MrSarcasm]

9 hours ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

The Steelers were 18/32 passing for 188 yards and only gave up 16 points. Can you point to specifics about where you think they should improve? 

Yes the should have been 9/32 90 yards and of given up only 9 points 😶

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, vincec said:

If they spend a high pick on a corner and he works out, then he is almost certainly going to walk when his rookie contract is up because they couldn’t afford to keep him. So it would be a rental. I don’t think they see using their high picks in that way.

 

Well, maybe... but Poyer and Hyde will be off the books then and by the time a rookie corner's deal came due after 4 years (or 5 if you went there round 1) then White will be 30 (or 31) and one would imagine his $15m would not be close to the top of the market then if the cap rebounds.... so essentially I think last year it was an option for them and is from here out if the draft falls the right way. I agree before that you don't want to spend a top pick on a guy that just causes you a cap crunch when he and Tre are both in their prime. But I think now you have to be thinking about having a guy who can start as a #2 corner but maybe means you ar enot having to reach for a #1 when Tre gets up there age wise. 

[BigBuff423]

I mentioned this in another thread, but the lack of Pre-Season for Levi Wallace, IMHO, is a missing factor in evaluating his game against the Steelers. Conditioning and game shape, as well as getting back into game speed - processing the Defensive calls and anticipating Offensive plays - takes a little to adjust to as well. I think Levi struggled, in part, due to the fact he had virtually no "game speed" practice in the Pre-Season. That's not absolving him of his responsibility to make smarter plays, for example he's been in the NFL for a few years and he knows when defending against a guy like Claypool you HAVE to get your head around to avoid the DPI, but I also think there's an element of lack of game shape and speed processing. 

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'll try one more time. 

 

The oft-quoted metric is that if a team holds their opponent to less than 20 points, they should generally win.

Let me say that again a little louder for the guys in the back: if a TEAM holds their opponent to less than 20 points, they should generally win.

 

It's a TEAM thing.  The defense doesn't get to sit back and say "hey 23 points?  Well ***** only 16 of 'em were ours, so who the ***** cares if we let the opponent score on every single drive in the 2nd half while the offense needed time to come from behind?  We did OUR job!"  That's not how football works.

Even McDermott at his postgame press conference, when asked about the defense, was all "when you take away the blocked punt they only gave up 16 points." And as you know he's not a guy into excuse-making or fudging numbers.

 

When you're discussing the DEFENSE, not the TEAM but just the defense, it's perfectly logical to filter out non-defense points allowed. It's like when you want to know how accurate a quarterback is, adjusted completion percentage that filters out drops is more accurate and useful than raw comp%.

[SCBills]

I thought the defense looked much improved. 
 

-Run defense was fantastic 

 

-Pass rush was evident in the first half.  Second half they made adjustments, got the ball out quicker and Ben just made a really nice move in the pocket to escape, step up, and find Freiermuth for a big gain. 
 

-Even though they moved the ball on us in the 2nd half, we held to FG’s, even with some tough officiating breaks.   It took a circus catch on a well defensed ball from Diontae Johnson to get them a TD. 
 

Just like I won’t make giant assumptions on our offense, given the Steelers seem to be a bad matchup, I also can’t go crazy for our defense given the Steelers have playmakers but that OL should’ve been a major weak spot for them Week 1.  
 

I did really like what I saw from Milano and Edmunds though.  They stood out to me. Huge for us if Edmunds finds himself this year.  

[First Round Bust]

from todays BN - grades - 3.0 for the secondary - the run D was the best grade 4/0

 

The Steelers targeted Tre’Davious White four times. He gave up two catches for 32 yards. They targeted Levi Wallace 10 times. He gave up four catches for 25 yards and a TD, plus two penalties for another 31 yards. That’s 56 total yards allowed, not a bad total. But when the Steelers desperately needed to make a play, Wallace is who they attacked. The tackling by the secondary was excellent. Taron Johnson had a key third-down pass breakup vs. JuJu Smith-Schuster and an end-zone breakup vs. Eric Ebron. The Bills stayed in the nickel defense every play of the game. Jordan Poyer had six tackles, including a sack. He was sent to rush the passer four times.

Just now, First Round Bust said:

from todays BN - grades - 3.0 for the secondary - the run D was the best grade 4/0

 

The Steelers targeted Tre’Davious White four times. He gave up two catches for 32 yards. They targeted Levi Wallace 10 times. He gave up four catches for 25 yards and a TD, plus two penalties for another 31 yards. That’s 56 total yards allowed, not a bad total. But when the Steelers desperately needed to make a play, Wallace is who they attacked. The tackling by the secondary was excellent. Taron Johnson had a key third-down pass breakup vs. JuJu Smith-Schuster and an end-zone breakup vs. Eric Ebron. The Bills stayed in the nickel defense every play of the game. Jordan Poyer had six tackles, including a sack. He was sent to rush the passer four times.

Note - Bills played man 58% of the time which was a change - so the CBs were exposed 1:1 more than you may have known-expected

[Livinginthepast]

The defense over all was good but failed on some crucial plays in this game to get it done. But this tends to happen when any defense is on the field too often and under pressure. I just wish that on the PI calls that Levi would have just turned his head. His body positioning wasnt bad and had he turned his head he would have had the INT. I cant understand how this isnt instinctive or trained into him by now.

[Jobot]

I look at this flip as more telling towards the confidence shift in our D-line.

[Jerome007]

DBs played well enough. Some of you guys expect perfection? 

 

The DL, except Oliver, was MIA though. Steelers are a very good team.... but not on OL unless these rookies are gems we didn't know about.

 

Speaking of DBs, I still think White's INT should NOT have been reversed by a ghost penalty. A huge game changer right there.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, CSBill said:

Not sure anyone was saying that Hap. I think we all understand the total points is what really counts 🙂 - I think? The point of this discussion was the points the Defense gave up, which, if my math is correct, was 16. That is a pretty good day.

 

Fair.  What I'm seeing/reacting to is basically:

-The defense only gave up 16 points, that's low enough we should expect to win

My response is for win expectation (which comes back to statistics), you look at TOTAL POINTS.  Hypothetically, if the defense has a splendid day and gives up 0 points but ST gives up 23 points on blocked punts and KO/punt returns - you don't expect to win.

 

Then this:

4 hours ago, CSBill said:

Having said that, while not perfect, they still played well. The Defense did their part. It was the Offense and ST that contributed the most to this loss.

 

I would agree that the offense and ST contributed that most to the loss.  That said, no, the defense did not do "their part".  They played very very well in the first half.  In the second half, as you allude to with your comments on lack of adjustments, they didn't force a single punt.  The Steelers scored on every single drive.

 

That's not good enough second half defense.  Especially after the Bills scored a field goal, "their part" was to get a stop so the Steelers had to give us the ball back.

A defense that can't do that is not doing their part.

 

And that was the story of our early-season and at times rest of season D last year.  Superior bordering on elite in the first half, unable to get stops in the 2nd half.

 

Flip it around - if the offense fails to score on every single drive in one half of football, but then scores 23 points in the second half and we lose 30-23 do think people would be saying "the Offense did their part, they played well enough, when we score 23 points we should expect to win?

 

I Think Not.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

Even McDermott at his postgame press conference, when asked about the defense, was all "when you take away the blocked punt they only gave up 16 points." And as you know he's not a guy into excuse-making or fudging numbers.

 

When you're discussing the DEFENSE, not the TEAM but just the defense, it's perfectly logical to filter out non-defense points allowed. It's like when you want to know how accurate a quarterback is, adjusted completion percentage that filters out drops is more accurate and useful than raw comp%.

 

I think we're taking McDermott's remarks a bit out of context.  He said "I thought the defense gave us a chance" (which is true) and "Obviously, when the QB can stand in on 3rd down and convert, it's not good enough".  Pitts converted on 4 of 12 3rd downs - they were all in the 2nd half.

 

I'm gonna duck out after this because why beat the hoss, but the original post I was responding to that started all this said:

13 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

And I say as a general Rule it was a good move. Defense showed did plenty to win this game. 
Anytime, in today’s NFL, you hold an opponent to 250 total Yds and 16 pts you should expect to win that game. 

 

My points are

1) if you're talking statistical expectation to win, it rolls on total points.  Any time you hold the other team to, I think it's less than 20 points, the statistical expectation is in your favor, but that's total points, not "points given up by defense"

2) I'm sorry, but in terms of total performance, not forcing a single COP without a score in the second half is not "plenty to win this game".  Football is 60 minutes, and a shutout for the first half of the game then giving up a score on every possession in the second half is not "plenty to win"

 

11 hours ago, MPT said:

That is how football works though. This isn't basketball or hockey where everyone plays offense and defense. They are completely separate entities. If the defense only gives up 16 points, they did their job well. Obviously it's still a team loss, but you can't say the defense played poorly when they only gave up one touchdown. 

 

I can say the defense didn't play well enough in the second half when the opponent scored on every single possession.   I woudn't say they played poorly, but I will say they didn't do "plenty to win".  I mean, c'mon guys - if the offense failed to score on every single drive of the second half of football while meanwhile the opponent nibbled down the lead and scored on a ST play, would you be saying they did "plenty to win" because they built up a lead in the first half?

 

Really?

 

11 hours ago, MPT said:

Just curious, would you still blame the defense if we lost 6-3? 10-6? Where's the cutoff?

 

As far as numbers, see above.

 

As far as blaming the defense, I probably need to reiterate - Clearly the ST and offense have the larger portion of blame for the loss.  But neither am I saying the defense did enough that we should "expect to win" or that the defense did "plenty to win this game".   To me, you can't purely look at points given up.   You have to look at the drives, as well.

 

if the defense had held on 2 drives in the 2nd half, that would be "the defense did plenty to win this game" in my book (NFL average is ~ 2 punts per half).  If they had held on one drive, the Pitts drive after the blocked punt and our field goal, I would also say they did their part.

[CSBill]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Fair.  What I'm seeing/reacting to is basically:

-The defense only gave up 16 points, that's low enough we should expect to win

My response is for win expectation (which comes back to statistics), you look at TOTAL POINTS.  Hypothetically, if the defense has a splendid day and gives up 0 points but ST gives up 23 points on blocked punts and KO/punt returns - you don't expect to win.

 

Then this:

 

I would agree that the offense and ST contributed that most to the loss.  That said, no, the defense did not do "their part".  They played very very well in the first half.  In the second half, as you allude to with your comments on lack of adjustments, they didn't force a single punt.  The Steelers scored on every single drive.

 

That's not good enough second half defense.  Especially after the Bills scored a field goal, "their part" was to get a stop so the Steelers had to give us the ball back.

A defense that can't do that is not doing their part.

 

And that was the story of our early-season and at times rest of season D last year.  Superior bordering on elite in the first half, unable to get stops in the 2nd half.

 

Flip it around - if the offense fails to score on every single drive in one half of football, but then scores 23 points in the second half and we lose 30-23 do think people would be saying "the Offense did their part, they played well enough, when we score 23 points we should expect to win?

 

I Think Not.

Okay, I see your point. Good discussion. Hopefully all three phases get better soon. 

[Coach Tuesday]

The Steelers saw what was happening and trusted their young receivers to make contested catches which they did (unlike the Bills’ well-paid veteran receivers).  They also likely knew that the Bills’ corners are lax in their trailing technique and don’t get their heads around, leading to DPI calls.  It worked.  Not saying zone would’ve done better but the Bills just got outplayed and out-coached.

[GoBills808]

Wallace and White can both play man if the situation presents itself, White more competently obviously. The only guy who really struggles in man coverage is Taron Johnson. He doesn’t have the technique to play man, needs zone to keep everything in front of him so he can react, which he does very well.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Wallace and White can both play man if the situation presents itself, White more competently obviously. The only guy who really struggles in man coverage is Taron Johnson. He doesn’t have the technique to play man, needs zone to keep everything in front of him so he can react, which he does very well.

 

The caveat I'll make here is that Wallace doesn't have the speed to play man against a top WR.  He has the mental aspect but he lacks the elite speed and shiftiness.

[dave mcbride]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Fair.  What I'm seeing/reacting to is basically:

-The defense only gave up 16 points, that's low enough we should expect to win

My response is for win expectation (which comes back to statistics), you look at TOTAL POINTS.  Hypothetically, if the defense has a splendid day and gives up 0 points but ST gives up 23 points on blocked punts and KO/punt returns - you don't expect to win.

 

Then this:

 

I would agree that the offense and ST contributed that most to the loss.  That said, no, the defense did not do "their part".  They played very very well in the first half.  In the second half, as you allude to with your comments on lack of adjustments, they didn't force a single punt.  The Steelers scored on every single drive.

 

That's not good enough second half defense.  Especially after the Bills scored a field goal, "their part" was to get a stop so the Steelers had to give us the ball back.

A defense that can't do that is not doing their part.

 

And that was the story of our early-season and at times rest of season D last year.  Superior bordering on elite in the first half, unable to get stops in the 2nd half.

 

Flip it around - if the offense fails to score on every single drive in one half of football, but then scores 23 points in the second half and we lose 30-23 do think people would be saying "the Offense did their part, they played well enough, when we score 23 points we should expect to win?

 

I Think Not.

The way I look at it, the Bills lost the ST battle 7-3. Their first 3 points were ONLY because of ST play. In the non-ST portion of the game, they lost 16-13.  13 points at home for the #2 offense of 2020 speaks very poorly of the offense, but maybe it's just the opponent. They clearly struggle against Pitt, putting up only 19 vs. the Steelers last year (factoring in the pick 6 by Taron Johnson) and 14 the year before (In 2019, they had a pick returned to the 18 and had to settle for three after making no progress; they also started their first TD drive at the Pitt 40 yard line after a shanked punt.) So basically, in their last three games vs. the Steelers, they've averaged 15.3 offensive points per game. Maybe their scheme is just a bad matchup for Pitt??? Maybe Pitt's D is far better than average?

Edited September 14, 2021 by dave mcbride

[Coach Tuesday]

I will add (and haven't seen it mentioned) that White's technique on the Claypool sideline catch was basically perfect, especially against a bigger WR.  He stayed at Claypool's hip and timed his jump right, and tried to swim his arm through to punch the ball out - Claypool is just stronger.  The only knock on the play was that Tre maybe should've tried to steer him wider off the release - there was too much space between the receiver and the sideline.  But you can't blame Tre for that play it was just incredible.

[RyanC883]

On 9/13/2021 at 9:46 PM, NewEra said:

The game stats are one thing.  We held them to 0 points at the half.  Not sure how many yards we gave up in the 1st half, but it was low.  Our D player lights out in the 1st half. 
 

then the 2nd half happened.  We didn’t force them to punt once in the 2nd half.  They scored on EVERY possession.  That’s not good defense in the 2nd half.  
 

our Defense wasn’t the reason we lost, but if they played better in the 2nd half, we might’ve won in spite of our OL, play calling  and mediocre QB play.  

 

 bingo.  The D was a tale of two halves.  

[Richard Noggin]

On 9/14/2021 at 6:54 AM, vincec said:

If they spend a high pick on a corner and he works out, then he is almost certainly going to walk when his rookie contract is up because they couldn’t afford to keep him. So it would be a rental. I don’t think they see using their high picks in that way.

But by then one or both of the starting safeties are long gone, and therefore likely cheaper; this could in turn reallocate/redistribute cap space in myriad ways, including re-signing a 3rd or 4th-year drafted CB2 to a big deal. The complication is that CB1 White's deal runs through the 2025 season, which would be a 2022 draftee's 4th season...wherein we face a confluence. Good problem to have.

[DrPJax]

On 9/13/2021 at 9:08 PM, NewEra said:

Specifically, not committing 26 yard PI’s on what was basically a Hail Mary on 3rd down.  

I rarely complain about calls as they tend to even out.  But I rewatched the game and focused on two pass plays. The one where trey was defending and the guy still caught the ball along the right sideline ( clay pool) .  White did not turn his head around ever, Charles Davis mentioned it, but trey had his hand in between claypools trying to pry the ball free yet the guy still made the catch as the ball was not under thrown. No flags !   Then watch Levi on that play where he draws a flag.  Great coverage , ball was slightly under thrown but not like 3-5 yards as the receiver still had a chance to catch or make contact with the ball. In slow mo you actually see Levi look straight up and over his right shoulder as that  arc of the ball coming in and he put his hands up just as the receiver reached up. Levi did not create the contact , and it was slight contact to say the least.  Levi had his hands up and did make contact with the ball. The ref who had the worst view threw the flag.     But looking at the two plays side by side , there was no difference in technique.  Trey did not look back or Locate the ball any more than Levi did.  Claypool just mad an amazing catch.   My point is that Levi actually had great coverage , but got hit with a terrible call imo and was penalized because the throw was poor but actually the receiver had the same chance to catch the ball as claypool did.  That call sealed the game as Pitt got a fg and lead was back to 10.  It’s inconsistent calls like that which influence the outcome of a game that are infuriating.    Watch those two plays together and see what you think.  Could Mcd have challenged that call , I don’t remember the time, but it was a possession changing call really?!  We really never seemed to have many calls go our way that game. Hard to feel like Pitt deserved that win outside of the blocked punt.  

[MJS]

The defense was pretty good. Can't fault them for the loss. A couple calls were BS as well, like the pass interference call that reversed White's INT.

[John from Riverside]

I think the problem with this is that Wallace is not a good man to man defender zone was supposed to be his thing

[BigAl2526]

Tagovailoa is a rhythm passer who tends to throw more short stuff.  I think man coverage is generally going to be more effective versus that kind of QB.  Whether or not Wallace can be effective depends on the receiver.  He's slow, and not particularly strong, so he'll be vulnerable to burners, and also big, physical receivers.  Unfortunately, Miami has both size and speed.  Parker is big, and pretty fast to boot.  Fuller and Waddle are both burners.  Whatever Buffalo does, Wallace is going to need help.