Speed: John Brown vs E Sanders

[PrimeTime101]

So my take is different from the OP's view. No matter what, Diggs will draw double team and at times teams has had to put 2 on Beasley cause he gets open so fast underneath. Now you add Sanders who is another superb rout runner.. better then Brown. So if you have elite talent rout running Diggs, then add a Beasley and Sanders out there then that adds another tier of difficulty to defend.

 

Davis goes on the field witch adds a different dynamic because Davis can block, + he can win 50/50 balls and then just for kicks put McKenzie out there who at 26 adds the threat of gimmick plays and has speed to get open fast at the second level..

 

Bottom line unlike last year, teams will have problems manning us... almost impossible and even the best of zone teams are going to struggle cause Josh Allen has learned to pick off zones like a wet dream.. Add all of that and the threat of Josh rolling out or running I feel makes this offense just as dangerous as KC but just different. 

 

To beat all that Josh Allen chose to show the world last week that he adds a 35 yard rope to his arsenal of throws and by the way? has way more trust that the WR's will turn and burn their rout before they even turn around to look at the ball.

 

Stop looking at Sanders as a downgrade people.. Sanders is an upgrade and with his specific abilities... I feel brings this offense to another level... oh and uh yea... I think Josh got better too.. Scary huh? 

 

I would NEVER want to face our offense this season and on top of it all? Motor is looking more like a #1 HB

[Doc Brown]

55 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

Of course, you can't in real life throw away salary, age and roles. But if they could afford him, he'd very very likely make the team. Guys who the Bills cut or don't re-sign tend to be consistently under-rated on the boards, a kind of sour grapes, "who needs him" kind of feeling. Brown was a good receiver. Availability problems last year but hasn't overall been injury-prone. Which of Kumerow, Davis and McKenzie has put up a thousand yard season with Josh Allen throwing to him, or with any other QB for that matter?

That's really before Beane got here though.  Thinking of all the high profile cuts or letting players walk in free agency I can only really think of two players (Wyatt Teller and Logan Thomas - I guess) that has excelled elsewhere.  That includes Watkins, Clay, Shady, Glenn, Dareus, P. Brown, Lawson, Phillips, McCoy, Ragland...I'm sure I've forgetting a few.  Darby's been okay. 

 

I'm not saying Jon Brown can't rebound and be the player he was two seasons ago but that would require him to stay healthy and not lose a step being 31 now as he makes a living off his elite speed.  He had leg issues early in his career due to being diagnosed with a sickle cell trait and I don't know with how much that had to do with his injury problems last year.  Plus, I don't know if it's a great sign that they chose to keep Zay Jones over you.

[Matt_In_NH]

8 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

Anyone concerned that John Brown's ability to keep safeties deep was lost when E Sanders replaced him?   

Anyone have their relative 40 times?    I don't recall Sanders being a burner.   Hope I am wrong..

Concerned we have a great, but less fast WR group, and secondaries will accordingly play tighter to the line of scrimmage.  

Brown was a shell of himself most of the year due to a knee injury.  .  Other teams new that.   The offense seemed to do “ok” sometime with him even in the lineup.  

[RobbRiddick]

What you hope for is that the passing game is all we think it can be early in the season, with Diggs, Sanders, Beasley and Davis giving teams fits, Knox and Breida making their fair share of catches on the side.

 

Then by the time Stevenson is eligible to play again, with coordinators spending so much effort trying to stop the offense they've seen for 8 weeks or so, the rookie can be thrown in on the occasional play to just burn past everyone and cause a new headache.

 

I don't see him making a huge impact on games, maybe the odd return, but just having a guy that Josh can launch it to now and then will help keep defenses honest. Plus we could use him on jet sweeps and a few gadget plays. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by RobbRiddick

[Magox]

11 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

Anyone concerned that John Brown's ability to keep safeties deep was lost when E Sanders replaced him?   

Anyone have their relative 40 times?    I don't recall Sanders being a burner.   Hope I am wrong..

Concerned we have a great, but less fast WR group, and secondaries will accordingly play tighter to the line of scrimmage.  

 

I think you should change your TBD name.

[JMF2006]

Sanders is faster in and out of breaks Brown in a straight line.

 

I think Sanders is a better all around receiver and will have less drops on contested balls.

The Bills still have plenty of guys who can take the top off,Davis,Mack,and Diggs can all do it as well as the rookie Stephenson.

[Mr. WEO]

5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Money matters aside, as well as age and where people are in the arcs of their careers, and roles in terms of who's a slot guy and who's not, all of that aside ... based only on talent, of course Brown would make this roster.

 

He's better than Kumerow and McKenzie. Maybe even Davis, though that's harder to say.

 

Of course, you can't in real life throw away salary, age and roles. But if they could afford him, he'd very very likely make the team. Guys who the Bills cut or don't re-sign tend to be consistently under-rated on the boards, a kind of sour grapes, "who needs him" kind of feeling. Brown was a good receiver. Availability problems last year but hasn't overall been injury-prone. Which of Kumerow, Davis and McKenzie has put up a thousand yard season with Josh Allen throwing to him, or with any other QB for that matter?

 

 

 

Possible, but unlikely. Certainly nothing we've seen so far.

 

The Bills' own depth chart lists Davis behind Sanders.

 

https://www.buffalobills.com/team/depth-chart

 

 

 

 

This is obviously a silly question.

 

Based only on talent, the entire Bills organization feels that Brown is not better than the guys they have on the team right now.  If they thought otherwise and agreed with you, they could pick him up for pennies right now.

[716er]

Can’t find the stat at the moment, but last year I believe Beasley had the most passes thrown to him (Bills only) 20+ yards downfield.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

5 hours ago, Putin said:

Davis had some amazing catches but I have to disagree about that he rarely drops a ball , actually his drop rate was higher then Knox 

according to whom? I see

2019, 20% on 50 targets 
2020, 9.1% on 44 targets

2020 4.8% on 62 targets 

 

 

[dave mcbride]

9 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Lack of speed won’t be anymore of an issue than it was last year. Sanders is better than Brown at getting separation. 

I forgot who posted the graph/stats, but Diggs, Beasley, and Sanders were ranked 1, 2, and 3 in average separation last year. This offense is predicated on windows to throw to, not jump balls, so he’s a perfect fit for the offense. There is a reason Beane has been chasing Sanders for a couple of years. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by dave mcbride

[cwater10]

9 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

I may be not remember the article correctly then. It was something about the Bills wanting him. Wish I could find it again but I can’t. 

fwiw...  https://www.syracuse.com/buffalo-bills/2020/04/buffalo-bills-were-pursuing-emmanuel-sanders-30-minutes-before-stefon-diggs-trade.html

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

11 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I forgot hpwho posted the graph/stats, but Diggs, Beasley, and Sanders were ranked 1, 2, and 3 in average separation last year. This offense is predicated on windows to throw to, not jump balls, so he’s a perfect fit for the offense. There is a reason Beane has been chasing Sanders for a couple of years. 

Brown not being able to separate killed the offense in kc. They doubled other two thus no one was open. Separation is everything with this offense and joshs arm. Any of these wrs can spring themselves if they start working underneath and pull coverage down. 
 

gabe was hobbled and useless 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Patrick Duffy]

8 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Brown not being able to separate killed the offense in kc. They doubled other two thus no one was open. Separation is everything with this offense and joshs arm. Any of these wrs can spring themselves if they start working underneath and pull coverage down. 

Well I wouldn't say that "killed" the offense. As we know there were a few issues that played a part in the offense struggling. Mainly injuries to basically the entire WR group.  Add OL got blown up quite a bit.

 

And of course the defense KC was playing....(with the amount of holding to Bills WR), Yes had to throw that out there also lol

Edited September 3, 2021 by Sheneneh Jenkins

[Jobot]

I'm assuming the original poster is an 8 year old, or could have some kind of alcohol abuse problem, so be nice guys.

[Mat68]

Sanders route running will be more effective vs man than Browns speed.  Against good man coverage Brown couldn't separate his entire time with Buffalo.  Sanders has done that his entire career.  Daboll can scheme deep shots.  Having someone take the load off Diggs underneath opens him up for more deeper routes.  

[HankBulloughMellencamp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSjhZlTzEos

 

Anyone unsure of what Sanders still has in the tank should watch this excellent Cover 1 piece ... #1 will be the #2a & a huge upgrade over the oft-injured John Brown.

Not sure how DCs could possibly cover Diggs, Sanders, Beasley and Gabe. An impossibilium.

[Patrick Duffy]

9 minutes ago, HankBulloughMellencamp said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSjhZlTzEos

 

Anyone unsure of what Sanders still has in the tank should watch this excellent Cover 1 piece ... #1 will be the #2a & a huge upgrade over the oft-injured John Brown.

Not sure how DCs could possibly cover Diggs, Sanders, Beasley and Gabe. An impossibilium.

Yeah I can't wait to see it. Also if the running game improves along with it, going to be a scary situation for opposing defenses.

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

That's really before Beane got here though.  Thinking of all the high profile cuts or letting players walk in free agency I can only really think of two players (Wyatt Teller and Logan Thomas - I guess) that has excelled elsewhere.  That includes Watkins, Clay, Shady, Glenn, Dareus, P. Brown, Lawson, Phillips, McCoy, Ragland...I'm sure I've forgetting a few.  Darby's been okay. 

 

I'm not saying Jon Brown can't rebound and be the player he was two seasons ago but that would require him to stay healthy and not lose a step being 31 now as he makes a living off his elite speed.  He had leg issues early in his career due to being diagnosed with a sickle cell trait and I don't know with how much that had to do with his injury problems last year.  Plus, I don't know if it's a great sign that they chose to keep Zay Jones over you.

 

 

Well, first, I didn't say people were excelling all over the place. I said that when the Bills let people go, Bills fans underestimate them. It's true, there's nearly always sour grapes.

 

Probably the best example is Stephon Gilmore. If you listened to Bills fans, you'd think the guy sucked, was soft, and on and on. Actually, he's been terrific. And there have been a bunch of cuts  and guys who signed elsewhere who have had very nice careers elsewhere, including several guys you listed. You talked about Darby, Watkins and Preston Brown and all have been solid to very good elsewhere. Robert Woods has been excellent.

 

NOT attacking Beane/McDermott here at all. They've been terrific, making smart call after smart call. A few mistakes but overall have been really great decision-makers. And they have to factor in finances into their picks, but most of the sour grapes is of the "he wasn't any good anyway" type rather than the far more reasonable, "we couldn't really afford him under the circumstances" variety.

 

But they've had to cut / let go several good players, and Bills fandom overall has instantly responded with sour grapes. Not that it's only in Buffalo. It's a human glitch.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Thurman#1

[ColoradoBills]

2 hours ago, HankBulloughMellencamp said:

Not sure how DCs could possibly cover Diggs, Sanders, Beasley and Gabe. An impossibilium.

 

Add McKenzie or Kumerow in 5WR sets (which I expect to see some every game).

Last season Bills were 6 of 6 in 5 WR wide.  Maybe, just maybe this is why the TE won't be that important this year.

[Doc Brown]

9 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Well, first, I didn't say people were excelling all over the place. I said that when the Bills let people go, Bills fans underestimate them. It's true, there's nearly always sour grapes.

 

Probably the best example is Stephon Gilmore. If you listened to Bills fans, you'd think the guy sucked, was soft, and on and on. Actually, he's been terrific. And there have been a bunch of cuts  and guys who signed elsewhere who have had very nice careers elsewhere, including several guys you listed. You talked about Darby, Watkins and Preston Brown and all have been solid to very good elsewhere. Robert Woods has been excellent.

 

NOT attacking Beane/McDermott here at all. They've been terrific, making smart call after smart call. A few mistakes but overall have been really great decision-makers. And they have to factor in finances into their picks, but most of the sour grapes is of the "he wasn't any good anyway" type rather than the far more reasonable, "we couldn't really afford him under the circumstances" variety.

 

But they've had to cut / let go several good players, and Bills fandom overall has instantly responded with sour grapes. Not that it's only in Buffalo. It's a human glitch.

I said after Beane got here so I could avoid somebody hitting me with the Gilmore and Woods examples.  LOL.  I agree with your sour grapes point though when it comes to most players.  Especially one's who weren't fan favorites when they were here like Gilmore.  Darby, Watkins, and Brown have been average at best.  Especially the latter two.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

16 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Exactly this.  

 

I don't agree there is no value to the 40-yard dash.

 

This isn't 1972 where you outwork guys with minimal athleticism. There are minimum thresholds now. 

 

Mike Evans at 6'5" running a 4.53 40-yard dash alleviated concerns, whereas Bills message board favorite Malcolm Kelly struggled IN PART because he ran a 4.68-4.75. It's the reason they measure arm length, and when Nick O'Leary checked in with 4.93 speed and 29" arms. 

 

Why do players like Henry Ruggs get drafted before Jerry Jeudy? 

 

How does Jalen Waddle get drafted before DeVonta Smith? 

 

4.27 40's. 

 

The entire league outsmarted themselves on DK Metcalf, 6"3" 230 pounds and 10.3 100-meter speed. 

 

So the threshold is 4.60 speed, and if you're a smaller WR, it needs to be closer to 4.50 speed. 

 

It's not an R-Squared correlation of 1.0, but speed is a factor. 

[Cheektowaga Chad]

Diggs sanders and Beasley are elite route runners, it will be near impossible to cover them one on one. If the defense can't get to allen, he should be able to pick apart any defense

[Thurman#1]

46 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

I said after Beane got here so I could avoid somebody hitting me with the Gilmore and Woods examples.  LOL.  I agree with your sour grapes point though when it comes to most players.  Especially one's who weren't fan favorites when they were here like Gilmore.  Darby, Watkins, and Brown have been average at best.  Especially the latter two.

 

 

Average at best CBs don't get contracts for the 17th highest average in football. And Darby did.

 

Watkins has also collected high contract values, by some smart organizations, including Kansas City.  And this year he's being paid almost as much per year as Emmanuel Sanders, whom nobody is going out of their way to call average.

 

And for the 2nd time, it is YOU, NOT ME, who used the word "excelled." I said they were under-rated by Bills fans. They are. And while I'd certainly agree that Brown hasn't excelled, he's been very solid, and he's still mentioned here almost always negatively.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Mr. WEO]

5 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

I don't agree there is no value to the 40-yard dash.

 

This isn't 1972 where you outwork guys with minimal athleticism. There are minimum thresholds now. 

 

Mike Evans at 6'5" running a 4.53 40-yard dash alleviated concerns, whereas Bills message board favorite Malcolm Kelly struggled IN PART because he ran a 4.68-4.75. It's the reason they measure arm length, and when Nick O'Leary checked in with 4.93 speed and 29" arms. 

 

Why do players like Henry Ruggs get drafted before Jerry Jeudy? 

 

How does Jalen Waddle get drafted before DeVonta Smith? 

 

4.27 40's. 

 

The entire league outsmarted themselves on DK Metcalf, 6"3" 230 pounds and 10.3 100-meter speed. 

 

So the threshold is 4.60 speed, and if you're a smaller WR, it needs to be closer to 4.50 speed. 

 

It's not an R-Squared correlation of 1.0, but speed is a factor. 

We aren’t talking about the draft.  
 

Brown ran a 4.34.  He lasted til the 3rd  round.  
 

Hes bounced around the league and now sits at home.  Speed isn’t paramount 

[ehfeuh57]

22 hours ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

Actually he's #2

On depth charts yes

 

In reality I believe its Gabe

[Straight Hucklebuck]

47 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

We aren’t talking about the draft.  
 

Brown ran a 4.34.  He lasted til the 3rd  round.  
 

Hes bounced around the league and now sits at home.  Speed isn’t paramount 

“We aren’t talking about the draft” 

 

- This whole thread was based on a question about Brown’s long speed verses Sanders.

 

”Speed isn’t paramount”

 

- That’s why I said it’s a “factor”

 

Where else do you get a number to indicate speed outside of the Combine measurements (40, 3-cone)?

 

Football people always talk about how timed speed doesn’t matter, it’s all on the tape, but clearly that’s not true and prospects are moved up and down because of it.

 

In this case why was Sanders speed questioned in the OP? Because he’s 34 and there is doubt how long he can consistently separate from DBs. He’s not going to forget how to run routes.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

“We aren’t talking about the draft” 

 

- This whole thread was based on a question about Brown’s long speed verses Sanders.

 

”Speed isn’t paramount”

 

- That’s why I said it’s a “factor”

 

Where else do you get a number to indicate speed outside of the Combine measurements (40, 3-cone)?

 

Football people always talk about how timed speed doesn’t matter, it’s all on the tape, but clearly that’s not true and prospects are moved up and down because of it.

 

In this case why was Sanders speed questioned in the OP? Because he’s 34 and there is doubt how long he can consistently separate from DBs. He’s not going to forget how to run routes.

 

You just cited several players' draft results were the result of their 40 times.  And then you listed minimum 40 times based on height.

 

This thread is actually about 2 dudes past the age of 30 who are not posting meaningful 40 times any more.  It's about which is a better receiver--and Sanders wins hands down.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

12 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

You just cited several players' draft results were the result of their 40 times.  And then you listed minimum 40 times based on height.

 

This thread is actually about 2 dudes past the age of 30 who are not posting meaningful 40 times any more.  It's about which is a better receiver--and Sanders wins hands down.

I took exception to the comment that speed is overrated unless it’s Tyreke Hill speed.

 

Speed does matter in 2021, not just at 4.29 like Hill, but the minimum speed bar is conceivably higher because teams throw more often than ever before, case in point is Hodgins. Had the height, the hands, the college production, but he’s a 4.6 guy who can’t stay healthy and can’t separate. 

 

And the other thing is happening here is our fandom dismisses what came before and favors who is here now. 
 

Brown had 1,000+ yards here as the #1 in 2019, and last year his injuries caught back up to him and his playmaking went belly up.

 

Sanders is on his 4th team in 5-years now, so he’s not in his prime either.

Great route runner yes, established veteran yes, but I think the OP has a valid point to ask about Sanders speed at 34 years old until we see it on the field against starters. 

[Turk71]

11 hours ago, HankBulloughMellencamp said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSjhZlTzEos

 

Anyone unsure of what Sanders still has in the tank should watch this excellent Cover 1 piece ... #1 will be the #2a & a huge upgrade over the oft-injured John Brown.

Not sure how DCs could possibly cover Diggs, Sanders, Beasley and Gabe. An impossibilium.

Thanks, haven't had time to finish it yet but great analysis. The Bills have 3 of the top 5 wrs in the league in efficiency vs zone coverage. Diggs Beasley and Sanders; Thielen and Cooks are the other 2. That's incredible.

[BillsFanForever19]

We didn't have John Brown most of last season. And when we did, we still didn't have his speed because he was never 100% for us. So don't look at it like John Brown v. Emmanuel Sanders. Look at it as last year's WR core + Emmanuel Sanders.

[billsfan_34]

On 9/2/2021 at 7:29 PM, ProcessTruster said:

Anyone concerned that John Brown's ability to keep safeties deep was lost when E Sanders replaced him?   

Anyone have their relative 40 times?    I don't recall Sanders being a burner.   Hope I am wrong..

Concerned we have a great, but less fast WR group, and secondaries will accordingly play tighter to the line of scrimmage.  

Stevenson when back will have his chance to take the top off!

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

On 9/2/2021 at 4:53 PM, ßookie_tech said:

Who puts up better numbers this year, Sanders or Gabe Davis? That is the question. 

 

Davis.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

11 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Watkins has also collected high contract values, by some smart organizations, including Kansas City.  And this year he's being paid almost as much per year as Emmanuel Sanders, whom nobody is going out of their way to call average.

 

Watkins has been paid and continues to be paid based on his potential. That's reasonable considering he was so great in college and even his first couple of seasons in Buffalo were good / promising. But if we look at his actual production since leaving the Bills I don't think it is Bills fans being bias in thinking he has been below average. His four year averages since 2017 suggest he has put up below average production at the position for a starting #1 or #2 WR. 

 

Since 2017 per season averages:

 

Sammy Watkins: 42 receptions 551 yards 4 TD's  45 YPG

 

Emmanuel Sanders: 61 receptions 754 yards 4 TD's 55YPG

 

Going off the 2020 receiving yardage leaders,  Sanders 754 receiving yardage average would rank him #43, or a just slightly above average #2 receiver if we say that the receiver ranked #48 would be exactly your average #2 receiver. Meanwhile for Watkins, his 551 yard average would have him ranked #65 for all WR's. Either not good enough to be a #2 WR or the leagues best #3 WR depending on if one is a half glass full or empty kind of person. 

 

Watkins biggest problem continues to be his health but even when on the field he's only produced 45 ypg to Sanders 55 ypg. Bottom line is Watkins has been a below average receiver due to both injury and performance when healthy when looking at the production of the top 64 WR's. 

 

 

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

10 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I took exception to the comment that speed is overrated unless it’s Tyreke Hill speed.

 

Speed does matter in 2021, not just at 4.29 like Hill, but the minimum speed bar is conceivably higher because teams throw more often than ever before, case in point is Hodgins. Had the height, the hands, the college production, but he’s a 4.6 guy who can’t stay healthy and can’t separate. 

 

And the other thing is happening here is our fandom dismisses what came before and favors who is here now. 
 

Brown had 1,000+ yards here as the #1 in 2019, and last year his injuries caught back up to him and his playmaking went belly up.

 

Sanders is on his 4th team in 5-years now, so he’s not in his prime either.

Great route runner yes, established veteran yes, but I think the OP has a valid point to ask about Sanders speed at 34 years old until we see it on the field against starters. 

 

Brown is 10 years out from his 40 time and he's banged up.   The OP titled this "speed"...and Brown's is long gone.  Sanders doesn't depend on straight line speed for success as a WR.  So, to answer OPs question, Sanders wins.

 

Brown barely got 1000 with in 2019 because Allen's only other option was Beasley.

[CSBill]

My thoughts: Sanders is an upgrade over Brown, a more complete receiver. Maybe not as fast, but quicker and better overall skills. However, I do think Gabe Davis will be the clear #2 by season's end. He just continues to get better, and he has been clutch in his young career. No doubt, Daboll and Allen trust him.

[John from Riverside]

Sanders is basically a lesser version of diggs as far as skillset

 

I will take that

[FLFan]

Sanders, by any measure of WR value and success, is the superior player.  He always has been and will be this year as well. The straight line speed measurements from the distant past are meaningless, even more meaningless than they were at the time as predictors of NFL success.  Sanders is a clear upgrade over Brown, at any stage, but without question at this stage of their respective careers.  

[Putin]

On 9/2/2021 at 6:34 PM, Putin said:

Sanders on this team is a # 5 WR 

I meant to say John Brown 🤦🏼‍♂️