Bills opening stadium discussions with NYS and Erie County

[nucci]

2 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

yep. You said it. They would have to expand to major league size right? from 20k seats to 45 k seats. There you have it. Do you know the cost of doing that? The difference I am trying to tell you is It would already be set up size wise for MLB. Thats all I am saying. Was Location and not big market place part of it or even most of it? Yes.. But seating had a role. 

ok, but the reason we didn't get a team was not because of the stadium. It was because Rich backed out when he found out the cost was $95M

[BillStime]

Why spend a billion dollars on a new stadium in Orchard Park?  Our market is North. Bring the stadium closer to Southern Ontario - and downtown fits the bill.

 

We need to use mass transit and commuter rail that connects in Buffalo. We will never get money for a new/renovated stadium in OP AND mass transit.

 

Have you ever been to a game in Seattle?  The stadium is aligned with a very cool mixed use neighborhood (hotels, restaurants, condos, offices, retail) that lead right into the heart of the city.  Game days are SO MUCH fun - bar hopping, partying and seeing tons of people everywhere.

 

Buffalo will adjust... and the Pegula's need a multi-function use stadium to keep revenue coming in to stay competitive in the NFL; hence, its not a bad idea to couple the stadium with convention space - Buffalo "needs" a new one.

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The "build new convention centers" call form some reason won't die.  This topic has been put to rest countless times, one would think.  This country is flooded with convention space.  Buffalo has plenty  (and isn't fully booked).  

 

Pegula can pay for whatever stadium he can image.  Let's leave the state's taxpayers out of this.

 

Personally, I agree. And it would be smartest for Pegula to fund it all himself, and then he'd be able to CONTROL it all himself. But I dont think that will happen either.

 

It's not just the Convention Center aspect of it. It's being able to use the building outside of Bills games in any manner.

 

If they build a new stadium downtown, and it is an enclosed building, there is no reason the MAC Football Championship shouldnt be moved there. Ditch Ford Field. Could probably get another Bowl game there too.

[LabattBlue]

Short but good read of the proposed Lancaster Domed Stadium(Ed Cottrell) from the 1960's, it never getting built at that location(current stadium built instead in OP), and the subsequent lawsuit by Cottrell.  

 

The area of Lancaster where the stadium was to be built is now filled with endless subdivisions of houses and patio homes.

 

Over the years, I knew some of the story, but never knew this would have been the 2nd domed stadium after the Astrodome, built in the world.

 

http://ampoleagle.com/when-it-comes-to-a-new-stadium-we-should-learn-from-the-past-p8386-208.htm

Edited March 31, 2021 by BTB

[SectionC3]

49 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

yep. You said it. They would have to expand to major league size right? from 20k seats to 45 k seats. There you have it. Do you know the cost of doing that? The difference I am trying to tell you is It would already be set up size wise for MLB. Thats all I am saying. Was Location and not big market place part of it or even most of it? Yes.. But seating had a role. 

Not really.  That’s what the third deck is for.  The issue with MLB is that our market can’t support a franchise.  

[May Day 10]

Pilot Field was originally designed, ready to remove the green roof and put in another deck and also expand the right field bleachers into more and permanent seating.

 

Buffalo was a finalist, along with Denver, Washington DC, and (Orlando/Miami/St Petersburg) (it was a no secret 1 of the teams was going to be put in a Florida location, it was just a matter of which one.

 

Right around the time that the Finalists were announced, I believe Rich publicly stated reservations about the cost of doing business as an MLB team including the $95 million expansion fee.  I dont believe the Riches really pursued it down to the wire.

 

It would have been a disaster here anyway and they may have been relocated by now.  Buffalo is/was too small for MLB with how the economics of the league are set.  It would be a dream for me and I would almost certainly be a STH.  The corporate dollars are not there, and the RSN fees would not be anywhere near competitive.  The Riches have enough $ to sustain losses, but they don't really seem to be willing to get their noses dirty (were very silent during Sabres and Bills sales).  

 

I still hold out hope for a miracle of a fortune 500 or 2 downtown with a revival and an MLB team.

 

 

 

 

Its a little known story, but apparently before all that, the Riches had dinner with the owner of the SF Giants.  The Giants' owner was bitching about Candlestick Park as well as the weather they had to deal with playing there.   The riches proposed moving or sharing the team in Buffalo and calling them the New York Giants.  There were a few meetings on that but it didnt get too far.

 

 

 

 

[PrimeTime101]

2 hours ago, SectionC3 said:

Not really.  That’s what the third deck is for.  The issue with MLB is that our market can’t support a franchise.  

so a third deck over 100% more 22k more then the rest of the ballpark? no... lol  This was highly suggested and talked about on other forums and not the main op topic here.

2 hours ago, nucci said:

ok, but the reason we didn't get a team was not because of the stadium. It was because Rich backed out when he found out the cost was $95M

this was part of it too. 

[dpberr]

2 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Personally, I agree. And it would be smartest for Pegula to fund it all himself, and then he'd be able to CONTROL it all himself. But I dont think that will happen either.

 

It's not just the Convention Center aspect of it. It's being able to use the building outside of Bills games in any manner.

 

If they build a new stadium downtown, and it is an enclosed building, there is no reason the MAC Football Championship shouldnt be moved there. Ditch Ford Field. Could probably get another Bowl game there too.

You need to fill that venue with "stuff" as many of the 365 days you can to make any money. Sports. Jehovah's witnesses. Concerts. High school graduations. Anything, everything.

[Mr. WEO]

18 hours ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

I don't think they have much choice. I believe the NFL is pushing hard for them to get a more modern stadium. So the question is should the team move or should they get get a new stadium/update the existing?

 

There is no option C. "leave it alone". 

 

So the owner who "saved" the Bills from moving is going to, a handful of years after buying the team and before his first stadium lease is up, credibly threaten to move the team?

 

LOL, I love this place!

 

3 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Personally, I agree. And it would be smartest for Pegula to fund it all himself, and then he'd be able to CONTROL it all himself. But I dont think that will happen either.

 

It's not just the Convention Center aspect of it. It's being able to use the building outside of Bills games in any manner.

 

If they build a new stadium downtown, and it is an enclosed building, there is no reason the MAC Football Championship shouldnt be moved there. Ditch Ford Field. Could probably get another Bowl game there too.

 

Every public entity foolish enough to build a new convention center has gone with the same mantra: "just fill it with events!" And stadiums are rarely used anywhere for a solid schedule of stadium sized events.  Buffalo is not a destination, so there are few convention events to make a dent in the costs of such a center.

 

The Bills announced today that they have "revised" that "study" they did a while ago about the stadium issue, taking COVID economy into consideration.  My guess is that their first plan/money grab was bold enough to get them laughed out of the room these days.

 

Here's the only deal the county (NYS can't afford this nonsense) should listen to:  whatever % ofd the financing the billionaire couple seeks from the public should be paid for in a matching % ownership by the public.  This is the model the NFL should approve of going forward.  It has been known for years that there is no sigbnificant financial benefit for the public financing of stadiums, only cost.  Let the public share in the revenue or pay for it yourselves....

[SoCal Deek]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The "build new convention centers" call form some reason won't die.  This topic has been put to rest countless times, one would think.  This country is flooded with convention space.  Buffalo has plenty  (and isn't fully booked).  

 

Pegula can pay for whatever stadium he can image.  Let's leave the state's taxpayers out of this.

It doesn't have to be one or the other.  For a smaller city like Buffalo, it might be better if the facility could be used for multiple functions.  This doesn't mean the main stadium 'room' would be used for conventions, but you could imagine a facility in which the central concourse, restrooms, snack bars, restaurants could be shared with adjacent Convention-sized spaces.  This would allow the building to be used more than a dozen or so times a year. Flexibility is the key.  And...it could be that the Pegulas would fund it and charge the Convention Committee (or the City) rent to use their facility.  It might be a public/private partnership win:win revenue stream for everyone.

Edited March 31, 2021 by SoCal Deek

[Mr. WEO]

16 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

It doesn't have to be one or the other.  For a smaller city like Buffalo, it might be better if the facility could be used for multiple functions.  This doesn't mean the main stadium 'room' would be used for conventions, but you could imagine a facility in which the central concourse, restrooms, snack bars, restaurants could be shared with adjacent Convention-sized spaces.  This would allow the building to be used more than a dozen or so times a year. Flexibility is the key.  And...it could be that the Pegulas would fund it and charge the Convention Committee (or the City) rent to use their facility.  It might be a public/private partnership win:win revenue stream for everyone.

 

 

There already is an under utilized Buffalo Convention Center.  Plus such a "flexible" venue being used another couple dozen times a year is the definition of a financial disaster.

 

The country has a glut of convention square footage--much of it in far more attractive conventioning cities than Buffalo---and much of int lays empty for the vast majority of the year.  Convention centers are one of the worst investments of public money ever conceived.

 

This gets mentioned every time a "downtown stadium" is discussed.  It's committing one boondoggle (public financing of a stadium) and then compounding it infinitely into a completely predictable financial unforced error.

 

Pegula can just "drill another well", right?  Let him do so and build a nice new stadium if he wants one.  Unlike the County and State--he has the money to do it (or the access to funds needed).

Edited March 31, 2021 by Mr. WEO

[Malazan]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

So the owner who "saved" the Bills from moving is going to, a handful of years after buying the team and before his first stadium lease is up, credibly threaten to move the team?

 

LOL, I love this place!

 

Why are you such a dimbulb? What did your parents do to you? 

 

We're all really tired of having to explain simple concepts to you while you run around here claiming to be smrt. 

[Southern_Bills]

Before we get started, I'm not a resident of Buffalo and the few games I catch in Buffalo tickets prices don't greatly effect me.

 

Is it worth it to you guys to take on the extra taxes and increased prices for the stadium? Or is it pretty much the NFL wants something done so you may as well go all out if you have to go halfway at a minimum?

 

Again I have no dog in the fight so my opinion really doesn't matter, I'm just curious.  I live in South Alabama so the taxes in Buffalo will definitely not effect me lol.

[scuba guy]

5 hours ago, teef said:

you're preaching to the choir.   i also live in monroe county, (i think we're the second in the state), the family has a place in sackets harbor, and i have a building in ontario county.  it's gross.  soon i'll be paying tax on 3 places in NY.  

 

i was more just wondering why your taxes went up so much.  i just assumed you they were adjusted to your purchase price.  

Purchase price was the other guy from Buffalo not me but taxes are gross in ny

[Mr. WEO]

20 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

Why are you such a dimbulb? What did your parents do to you? 

 

We're all really tired of having to explain simple concepts to you while you run around here claiming to be smrt. 

 

So you think it's possible he would even threaten to move the team under any circumstance?

 

What my parents did for me is bring me into a world where I can enjoy the printed thoughts of people such as yourself.  I am eternally grateful to them for this!

 

And where did I claim to be "smart". lol

[Steptide]

20 hours ago, Logic said:

If they're going to build a new stadium, I hope it stays in Orchard Park.

I can't remember which team's new stadium it was (Pittsburgh? Houston?), but they just built it on what used to be the parking lot of the old stadium, and turned the site of the old stadium into the new parking lot.

I'm all for whatever it takes to keep the Bills in Buffalo long term, but game days sure would lose a lot of their charm and what makes them special if the stadium left Orchard Park for downtown Buffalo. Having been to away games in city centers, I can say that the Bills game day experience is much, much, MUCH more fun and unique and special. 

Keep the Bills in Orchard Park.

I'm down with this. The NFL just wants a new sexy stadium to look good on TV, while bills fans want the game day experience. I think you could get the best of both worlds doing it this way

[purple haze]

9 hours ago, May Day 10 said:

I would prefer renovating the current stadium.  I love the sightlines and I believe the NFL experience there is truly unique and it is a draw for fans of other teams.  We have history there.  I like the elements.  I love Bills games, they are hopefully going to remain competitive and game experience will be that much better.  I am proud of what we have and every year that is preserved it will be more and more special and more of an attraction.

 

Second choice is an outdoor stadium with more of a roof in an adjacent parking lot in OP.

 

Third choice would be the outdoor stadium with roof downtown.

 

Fourth choice is an indoor stadium but with an open-air feel to it with natural light and a unique setup (that would be downtown no matter what IMO)

 

Last choice would be a Ford Field style sterile indoor where it feels like the games are played in about 80% light and every single game looks the same, devoid of atmosphere.

 

I dont think retractable is a realistic possibility for the cost and the climate. 

I hate watching games at Ford Field.  Looks like a mausoleum.  Low light and sterile.

 

I keep seeing others talk about a roof to attract other events.  There aren't that many

other events to put in a football stadium.  And to add a retractable roof raises the costs

exponentially for all of those who worry about the price tag and its effect on local taxes.  Build a stadium

like Seattle with the overhangs on either side.

Edited April 1, 2021 by purple haze

[purple haze]

5 hours ago, BillStime said:

Why spend a billion dollars on a new stadium in Orchard Park?  Our market is North. Bring the stadium closer to Southern Ontario - and downtown fits the bill.

 

We need to use mass transit and commuter rail that connects in Buffalo. We will never get money for a new/renovated stadium in OP AND mass transit.

 

Have you ever been to a game in Seattle?  The stadium is aligned with a very cool mixed use neighborhood (hotels, restaurants, condos, offices, retail) that lead right into the heart of the city.  Game days are SO MUCH fun - bar hopping, partying and seeing tons of people everywhere.

 

Buffalo will adjust... and the Pegula's need a multi-function use stadium to keep revenue coming in to stay competitive in the NFL; hence, its not a bad idea to couple the stadium with convention space - Buffalo "needs" a new one.

Adjust kicking and screaming.  In past years Buffalo was not known for forward thinking.  Of course a new stadium needs to happen.  Love the stadium, but it's old and to keep putting money into it doesn't really make sense.  Eventually it won't help.  It's already been said that because of the original architecture the concourses can't be expanded.  Folks can always find a place to get fall down drunk, bang in a parking lot and jump through a table.  It doesn't bother me, but there are folks who don't go to games because of it.  My bet is the Bills, as a business entity wants to lose the antics.  Get ready to go downtown in the next several years.

[Nitro]

The Bills and a new stadium has been an issue since Frank Sedita was mayor.  A downtown stadium has its merits.  I live in Indy and Lucas Oil Stadium is used year around in conjunction with the convention center.  I understand the position of those who want it kept in Orchard Park.  Whatever is decided, get it done.  NYS is notorious for foot dragging on WNY projects.

[Nitro]

21 minutes ago, purple haze said:

I hate watching games at Ford Field.  Looks like a mausoleum.  Low light and sterile.

 

I keep seeing others talk about a roof to attract other events.  There aren't that many

other events to put in a football stadium.  And to add a retractable roof raises the costs

exponentially for all of those who worry about the price tag and its effect on local taxes.  Build a stadium

like Seattle with the overhangs on either side.

I disagree. There are plenty events to put in a football stadium specially downtown.  Indy hosts large conventions, NCAA basketball games, concerts, marching band competitions and GEN CON among the numerous uses.  It hinges on having a convention center close by.  Indy downtown has exploded in hotels, restaurants, bars, condos and apartments.  It could be a boon for Buffalo.

[Malazan]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

So you think it's possible he would even threaten to move the team under any circumstance?

 

What my parents did for me is bring me into a world where I can enjoy the printed thoughts of people such as yourself.  I am eternally grateful to them for this!

 

And where did I claim to be "smart". lol

 

I'm not claiming *he* will threaten or want to move the team. All indications are that *he* isn't really interested in building a new stadium or doing the major renovations to the existing one, but if *he* doesn't do something then it eventually won't be up to *him*.

Edited April 1, 2021 by jeremy2020

[Augie]

29 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

I'm not claiming *he* will threaten or want to move the team. All indications are that *he* isn't really interested in building a new stadium or doing the major renovations to the existing one, but if *he* doesn't do something then it eventually won't be up to *him*.

 

Please just say *it*. Are you saying the NFL can force *him* to do something? I know they can pressure them, but I’m not sure what *they* can force *him* to do. *They* can’t make *him* move or threaten to move.  The Pegulas own the team. They will play along, but at their own time and for their own reasons. 

 

Maybe you are implying *he* will act as though he is forced? Hard to tell from what I read above. 

 

 

.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Augie

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

I'm not claiming *he* will threaten or want to move the team. All indications are that *he* isn't really interested in building a new stadium or doing the major renovations to the existing one, but if *he* doesn't do something then it eventually won't be up to *him*.

 

 

Who will it be up to?

 

[Dkollidas]

I’m not personally set either way. I think either, if done right, could be really cool. But both if done incorrectly, could really have a bad affect in the area as sell

Overall my general belief is that the Bills with help from the State & County  will renovate the current system. They should take a look at what the Chiefs and Packers have done in particular. Put the money into a well thought out renovation, while keeping its character and stay in Orchard Park. 
 

The amount of money it would cost to build a new stadium would involve...

 

1) buying current property and demolishing and setting up for said stadium. 

2) Adding some type of new thruway and/or metro to and from the city to help alleviate traffic (it was already a cluster from a 20K Sabres game, imagine a 60K-80K football game in A November/December snow storm.

 

3) New stadium, new mentality. It will be about corporate boxes and suites, PSL’s, along with a general massive raise in ticket prices. 
 

4) old stadium and property becomes what? A Bills hall of fame? Or does it just die there slowly... 

 

Im sure there’s more I haven’t listed. I just don’t believe it’s fiscally responsible for the team, state, county, tax payers, or ticket holders (which I am not), to build a new stadium downtown. 

 

[Augie]

15 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Who will it be up to?

 

 

I suspect it will come down to a TBD poll, so if you want to be proactive, you could start that now. 

 

 

 

.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Augie

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Nitro said:

The Bills and a new stadium has been an issue since Frank Sedita was mayor.  A downtown stadium has its merits.  I live in Indy and Lucas Oil Stadium is used year around in conjunction with the convention center.  I understand the position of those who want it kept in Orchard Park.  Whatever is decided, get it done.  NYS is notorious for foot dragging on WNY projects.

 

NYS didn't drag its feet blowing money on "The Buffalo Billion".  Total scam.

 

And check out the Lucas Stadium bookings.  After the Final 4, there are 4 non NFL events through next January 10th.  The convention center has  6 events with projected attendance over 4000 through October--and that's with the belief that 7000 will attend "Women of Joy" and 13,500 will be there for "Sweets and Snacks"....  

[beerme1]

16 hours ago, Buffalo03 said:

It annoys me that the NFL keeps pushing for a new stadium or renovations. There is absolutely nothing wrong with our stadium. It is an old stadium but is very well taken care of and still looks great. It's funny, Lambeau Field is older than our stadium, Soldier Field is older than our stadium but the NFL never bugs them about going new

 

Uh, Lambeau had how many hundred million dollars renovation? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Chicago build an entirely new stadium and just kept the original facade or entry hates of the old joint? Like BCBS did with their downtown new old building? Hep me.

 

New stadium will be outdoors like Pittsburgh and in the city. IMO.  

[Malazan]

2 hours ago, Augie said:

 

Please just say *it*. Are you saying the NFL can force *him* to do something? I know they can pressure them, but I’m not sure what *they* can force *him* to do. *They* can’t make *him* move or threaten to move.  The Pegulas own the team. They will play along, but at their own time and for their own reasons. 

 

Maybe you are implying *he* will act as though he is forced? Hard to tell from what I read above. .

 

Completely ignoring that the NFL can actually force a sale under certain conditions...long before it ever got to that point, the Pegulas would sell the team from the pressure of the other owners. Just like they can move your desk to the basement at work and fix the glitch on your paycheck. 

 

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

Who will it be up to?

 

If you can't figure it out, please remain the running the joke of this board then. 

Edited April 1, 2021 by jeremy2020

[Chandler#81]

Dear Santa, I’ve been a good um.. pretty good um.. how are you? 

For Xmas this year, I want a downtown, retractable roof dome for the Buffalo Bills. We’ve lived out in the boonies with no championships for a half century now. We’ve become a humorless country hick joke, but the times have changed. We finally have a team built like it’s 1964 all over again so we need to reclaim the city of our birth. It’s beyond time to get relevant with the rest of the cool kids.

 

Scrap the Rich/Ralph/BS/High. It was BORN ‘out to pasture’.

 

Your friend,

C#81

 

P.S. My sister says she doesn’t believe in you, so just bring her coal😉

[Dr.Sack]

Do something 

[BigDingus]

Every year we wait it just gets more expensive. Another round of renovations being half a billion dollars? Teams spent that much a decade ago building entirely new stadiums. 

Also, I laughed at this last line - "As the NFL’s only New York-based franchise, the Bills in 2013 were estimated to generate $20 million annually in state taxes."

I mean, it's not nothing but it's hardly something to point to for why the state should pony up a ton money lol

[Mr. WEO]

7 hours ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

Completely ignoring that the NFL can actually force a sale under certain conditions...long before it ever got to that point, the Pegulas would sell the team from the pressure of the other owners. Just like they can move your desk to the basement at work and fix the glitch on your paycheck. 

 

 

If you can't figure it out, please remain the running the joke of this board then. 

So you really believe that one of the “conditions” under which “The NFL can actually force a sale” of a team is....a stadium isn’t built or renovated? 
 

Speaking of parents, maybe one of yours should review your posts before you click “submit reply”...

[JMF2006]

On 3/31/2021 at 6:27 AM, CSBill said:

My vote: New Dome right beside Hammer's Lot.

 

 

They would probably need to build it on Hammers Lot if they are building it across the street from the current stadium

[SoCal Deek]

What would be wrong with a new, modest, outdoor stadium downtown? Seems like it’d be the perfect compromise and well within the range of economic reality. It’d have less seating capacity, but mostly under cover, and modest but modern amenities. (Heck, Josh Allen’s next contract is going to be close to the same price tag!) Get it done Buffalo! 

[JMF2006]

BTW the last 300m or so bought a coat of black paint and some boulders

 

If your building again or renovating in Orchard Park do you think you could include some sidewalks in the budget  

[Kelsayrundefense]

I'd like to apologize.  I was wrong. A convention center/stadium model makes the most sense.  But not just any convention center.  We need the world's biggest convention center.  A huge ceremony with Guinness book of world records certifying Buffalo as home of the world's largest convention center.  This will certainly drive massive amounts of people/revenue to the city.  It will work similarly as to how the monorail put Brockway, Ogdenville and North Haverbrook on the map.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Kelsayrundefense

[RiotAct]

9 hours ago, Dkollidas said:

 

4) old stadium and property becomes what? A Bills hall of fame? Or does it just die there slowly... 

 

It’ll probably become a Tim Hortons or Delta Sonic...

[JMF2006]

4 hours ago, Kelsayrundefense said:

I'd like to apologize.  I was wrong. A convention center/stadium model makes the most sense.  But not just any convention center.  We need the world's biggest convention center.  A huge ceremony with Guinness book of world records certifying Buffalo as home of the world's largest convention center.  This will certainly drive massive amounts of people/revenue to the city.  It will work similarly as to how the monorail put Brockway, Ogdenville and North Haverbrook on the map.

 

I we  get the mono rail too

 

Cancel the sidewalks  ;.)

Edited April 1, 2021 by JMF2006

[LabattBlue]

11 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

It’ll probably become a Tim Hortons or Delta Sonic...

...or a very expensive OP subdivision($500k and up) with the footprint of the stadium becoming a retention pond with a jogging track around the perimeter.  

[May Day 10]

A renovation to Rich Stadium would be unlike anything that has previously taken place and quite possibly could displace the team for a portion of a season (or more).  Maybe the closest thing was the 1998 renovation when they added the clubs.

 

It would basically be rebuilding a new stadium in-place, much like they did in Chicago, Green Bay, and Kansas City.  The latest thing in 2013 or whatever, was largely cosmetic.