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RB with speed


BananaB

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I’m watching some old bills game so maybe I’m jaded but the design of our current run game is horrible. I can’t stand this run pass option crap where josh is in the shotgun and the rb is right next to him. I’m watching these bills games where the rb is 7 yards behind the line of scrimmage and kelly is dropping back and then handing off and by that time guys have been moving all over and low and behold there’s actual holes to run through. Thomas was not a fast back either. I think Singletary is good enough to be somewhat elusive and quick enough to hit these holes but we just don’t have any in our scheme. I’m so sick of never having josh under center and just handing off to the back while standing next to josh. 

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1 hour ago, TigerJ said:

I'm not against having a back with speed.  In fact I rather like the idea, but Clyde Edwards-Helaire is a virtual clone of Devin Singletary if your talking physical profile and running style, right down to the fact that they're both slow.  Yet Edwards-Helaire is leading the league in running yards and Devin is chewing out 3.3 yards per carry after a promising rookie year.  The evidence suggests something else is going on.  I'm not really buying Brian Daboll's solution either ("I've got to call better plays.")

 

Maybe I'm wrong but I didn't think they had the same running style. Haven't seen a whole lot of him but it seemed to me that CEH hits the hole a lot faster than Devin. 

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1 hour ago, Houston's #1 Bills Fan said:

Seriously! I mean, why not try him out. I know, you have to keep on the active roster then, but I think he's probably better than Moss at this point. 

He's not allowed to be on the Bills active roster this year due to their use of the exemption when he went on the practice squad.  

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3 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Ford is way more of an athletic freak than had a great college career. He was a 1 year starter

1 year starter at T, 1.5 years at guard I think. He was moved to tackle for senior year to fill a hole in the roster.

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2 hours ago, starrymessenger said:

 

Maybe I'm wrong but I didn't think they had the same running style. Haven't seen a whole lot of him but it seemed to me that CEH hits the hole a lot faster than Devin. 


I’m at the edge of my X’s and O’s here, I’m just a casual fan with no experience coaching or playing, but it seems to me the issue is in the blocking techniques - Daboll prefers misdirection and disguise and I suspect he has the linemen start out running plays with a pass blocking technique so as not to clue the defense that it’s a running play.  I could be wrong about this but the linemen look reactive and upright on a lot of our running plays, almost as if they’re pass blocking.  Would make sense to have running and passing plays look the same for as long as possible to confuse the defense but that seems to me to be the source of the problem.  If that makes sense.

 

Also Zack Moss is terrible.

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14 hours ago, starrymessenger said:

 

Maybe I'm wrong but I didn't think they had the same running style. Haven't seen a whole lot of him but it seemed to me that CEH hits the hole a lot faster than Devin. 

The difference may be CEH has holes to hit.

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1 hour ago, TigerJ said:

The difference may be CEH has holes to hit.

 

I get it but even when the run game was working (eg last year) he was always more a back who relied upon  vision and elusiveness than burst. CEH is not straightline much faster than DS but he has burst and hits the hole fast. Different type of runner is all. Given DS’s game I’m not sure I fully understand the Moss pick. I guess we will see.

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On 10/20/2020 at 8:43 AM, BananaB said:

We need one badly. Our running game ain’t all on the RBs but it’s part of the problem. Even when we do get a solid carry they are normally bought down from the guys behind them not the guys in front. 
 

Singletary got great vision but he’s got no burst to take advantage of it

He has great burst.  He lacks top end speed.

8 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

I think people are slowly realizing this isn’t our year...

Yup at 4-2 with only 10 games to go it's impossible for us to improve It's not like we didn't have a full off-season.  Just real discouraging to be eliminated from playoff contention after six weeks and a 67% win rate.😉

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12 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said:

He has great burst.  He lacks top end speed.

Yup at 4-2 with only 10 games to go it's impossible for us to improve It's not like we didn't have a full off-season.  Just real discouraging to be eliminated from playoff contention after six weeks and a 67% win rate.😉

Oh, don’t get me wrong- we still have a great shot at the division, we are just not title contenders yet imo...still several key pieces needed...that’s what I meant by this is not our year...

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6 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

Oh, don’t get me wrong- we still have a great shot at the division, we are just not title contenders yet imo...still several key pieces needed...that’s what I meant by this is not our year...

Originally I had thought we were in better opt out shape than most teams, but looking back I believe we got hurt close to the worst.  Most teams it's like who is that guy.

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2 minutes ago, OrtonHearsaWho said:

I get the frustration but I really don't think it's because of our backs, although like others here I really would like to see Yeldon active more often and I do not understand why he isn't.  To me it's blocking and maybe more than anything else it is play calling.

What is troublesome is the staff says “everything is earned here” but Ford starts not Spain. Yeldon often a healthy scratch.  Annoying.

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15 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:


I’m at the edge of my X’s and O’s here, I’m just a casual fan with no experience coaching or playing, but it seems to me the issue is in the blocking techniques - Daboll prefers misdirection and disguise and I suspect he has the linemen start out running plays with a pass blocking technique so as not to clue the defense that it’s a running play.  I could be wrong about this but the linemen look reactive and upright on a lot of our running plays, almost as if they’re pass blocking.  Would make sense to have running and passing plays look the same for as long as possible to confuse the defense but that seems to me to be the source of the problem.  If that makes sense.

 

Also Zack Moss is terrible.

Whatever they're doing, the Oline is getting zero push.  I'm also just a casual fan with no playing or coaching experience but with brain like a f@#$ing rocket scientist and penis like burmese python but I don't see open running lanes or holes on TV.  I see defenders in our backfield and log jams at the line of scrimmage even though the Chiefs and Titans were running light boxes.  If Singletary manages to get past the LOS clean I see LBs and defensive backs flying downhill to meet him.  

 

Meanwhile, Clyde Edwards Helaire is running through massive holes, his O lineman are driving our defensive line 2 and 3 yards downfield, and our DBs aren't even in the camera field of view yet. 

Edited by Jauronimo
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By way of FYI, other "slow" 4.6/ 40 yd current starting NFL RBs:    

 

David Montgomery

Josh Jacobs

James Robinson

 

Which argues that a reasonable part of an RBs production can't be parsed as 40 yd time alone. O' Line, O' Scheme, playcalling etc must play a significant part. 

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8 minutes ago, promtbr88 said:

By way of FYI, other "slow" 4.6/ 40 yd current starting NFL RBs:    

 

David Montgomery

Josh Jacobs

James Robinson

 

Which argues that a reasonable part of an RBs production can't be parsed as 40 yd time alone. O' Line, O' Scheme, playcalling etc must play a significant part. 

 

Montgomery and Jacobs have about the same YPC as Motor this year (I have both on my fantasy team so I know lol) but I really think the majority of it is line talent and scheme/play calling.  You obviously need a talented back but I think a good playbook makes players seem a lot more talented that they are, and DEFINITELY vice versa.

 

I look at the Packers and the 49ers as great examples of great schemes and play calling.  They make it very difficult to prepare for them because they've set up their runs and passes to look nearly identical pre-snap whether its personnel, formations or motion (or all three).  Neither team has overwhelmingly great O-lines but make up for that with creative play calling.

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On 10/20/2020 at 6:13 PM, BananaB said:

We need one badly. Our running game ain’t all on the RBs but it’s part of the problem. Even when we do get a solid carry they are normally bought down from the guys behind them not the guys in front. 
 

Singletary got great vision but he’s got no burst to take advantage of it

It is not Singletary.  Whenever he has touched the ball he has done well.  On the flip side,  Moss is very slow to hit the hole.   May be they need to let Moss play a little loose on the outside.

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On 10/20/2020 at 8:43 AM, BananaB said:

We need one badly. Our running game ain’t all on the RBs but it’s part of the problem. Even when we do get a solid carry they are normally bought down from the guys behind them not the guys in front. 
 

Singletary got great vision but he’s got no burst to take advantage of it

That left side was blocking pretty well for Singletary but like you said. The burst wasn't there and the holes closed for him

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On 10/22/2020 at 2:58 PM, LABILLBACKER said:

You're not alone. It's like because we drafted both these guys in the 3rd round we're obligated to play them even if we can see they both have little burst. TJ's lack of playing time is starting to get ridiculous. He's a better receiver than both combined and I'd argue he slightly faster than Devin/Zack. 

He’s got good size too .... seems he was branded after one egregious preseason fumble ..... I don’t get it, especially with the current arrangement being sub par 

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We need to try Moss 7 yards deep once on awhile.  He's a one cut hammer back but Daboll almost always has him right next to josh lined up 4 yards behind the line.

 

Hard to get momentum and power when you're getting the ball at a dead stop right behind your Oline.  Thats OK for Singletary but doesn't fit Moss' style.

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Moss has been too hesitant in hitting what holes are there.  Giving him a longer run up, isn't going to make a difference, imho. He hasn't got the speed of the NFL yet. I would be playing Yeldon instead of him atm, because we need more from our running game, and Yeldon has been more productive. And can catch.

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It's interesting to note all the discontent.  Last year some fans were raving that Singletary was "special."  

 

A lot goes into a running game: scheme, blocking, play-calling, and so on.  But Singletary isn't blameless for his humble season totals: 299 yards; 3.8 ypc.  

 

It's pretty clear that we need a better offensive line.  But I also agree with those who say we need better RBs.

 

On 10/23/2020 at 8:24 AM, OrtonHearsaWho said:

I get the frustration but I really don't think it's because of our backs, although like others here I really would like to see Yeldon active more often and I do not understand why he isn't.  To me it's blocking and maybe more than anything else it is play calling.

 

I don't know if Daboll is bad at scheming up and calling run plays.  But he's not at the Greg Roman level.  

Edited by hondo in seattle
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