AJ Epenesa - Position Fit

[ngbills]

It is going to be a while before we see the new players hit the field. My biggest concern with AJ is his quickness and athleticism. Given that I would not be surprised to see him bumped inside more often than on the edge. End of the day it is about what he does on the field but for comparison purposes his times fit the DT mold more than DE. 

 

40 time

Epenesa: 5.04

Oliver: 4.73

Star: 5.41

H Phillips: 5.21

Taylor: 5.07

Murphy: 4.86

Addison: 4.70

Hughes: 4.65

Jefferson: 4.95

 

3 Cone

Epenesa: 7.34

Oliver: 7.15

Star: 7.66

H Phillips: 7.28

Taylor: 7.58

Murphy: 6.78

Addison: 6.96

Hughes: 6.99

Jefferson: 7.95 (must have slipped)

 

20 yd shuttle

Epenesa: 4.46

Oliver: 4.22

Star: 4.65

H Phillips: 4.50

Taylor: 4.59

Murphy: 4.20

Addison: 4.28

Jefferson: 4.95

Hughes: 4.15

Jefferson: 4.37

[hondo in seattle]

Interesting work.  Probably should be in the Epenesa thread.  

[Don Otreply]

It has been said that most thought his pro day would produce faster times, but was cancelled due to C-19, that and the game day tape is more indicative of performance than the combine, so, I’m going with DE/Edge, with additional use inside relevant to the opponent and down. 
 

Go Bills!!!

[nucci]

DL

[TigerJ]

I think Epenesa and Jefferson will spend more of their time on the left side of the line and inside second.  Addison will rotate in mostly for Hughes.  Murphy may be lucky to hold on to a job, or he may get traded.  Epenesa's game is not about speed and bend.  Rather it is about leverage, power and balance.  I suspect in the pros, he won't be any more than a single digit sack guy, but if he's good versus the run, that may be enough.

[mjt328]

I would suggest watching the Cover 1 film session on him.

 

 

Pass rushing isn't just about speed.  Edge rushers can also win with leverage, great hand usage, and recognition.

And while AJ Epenesa isn't the fastest athlete, he is absolutely exceptional with everything else.

 

Based on tape alone, most had Epenesa slated as a Top 15 draft pick.  If he had killed the Combine drills, he would have almost certainly jumped into the Top 10.  

Despite him not posting great numbers, most still saw him as a 1st Round prospect.  We got a steal and he should still outperform most of the other guys picked last weekend.

 

[DFT]

I remember the same thing happening to Calais Campbell...  AJ will be fine.  

[DJB]

42 minutes ago, nucci said:

DL

[freddyjj]

He is a LDE on base D, Early downs and will play the strong side.  His job will be to hold the edge vs the run.  Shaq showed he could do it, Murphy...not so much.  On obvious passing downs McD and Frasier can now build a pass rush with Addison and Hughes outside and any combination of Jefferson/Epenesa and Oliver inside.  Alot like the Giants DLine in 2007.

[MJS]

Instead of listening to the media and looking up combine numbers, go watch him play. He's a dang good pass rusher. Hest also good against the run. He has excellent technique and strategy as a pass rusher. He uses his hands perhaps better than any prospect I have seen before. He has excellent power and is quick off the line.

[WhoTom]

1 hour ago, nucci said:

DL

 

I don't know, man - we really need a punter.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

17 minutes ago, MJS said:

Instead of listening to the media and looking up combine numbers, go watch him play. He's a dang good pass rusher. Hest also good against the run. He has excellent technique and strategy as a pass rusher. He uses his hands perhaps better than any prospect I have seen before. He has excellent power and is quick off the line.

I wouldn’t say he is quick off the line but he is very calculating and has no wasted movement. I would rate his athletic ability for a DE as slightly above average and at DT good. One of the quickest players off the snap was Meatball and Epenesa will have to put some serious work in to get to that level.

[JoPoy88]

From what I’ve read about him what he lacks in pure quickness is offset by his strength, arm length, and technique. He can get the job done in his own way. Personally, I could give a flip how he does it, and 40 times for defensive ends mean nothing to me as far as predicting how they’ll perform in their jobs.

[MJS]

23 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

I wouldn’t say he is quick off the line but he is very calculating and has no wasted movement. I would rate his athletic ability for a DE as slightly above average and at DT good. One of the quickest players off the snap was Meatball and Epenesa will have to put some serious work in to get to that level.

Well yeah, he's a rookie and has only had like 13 starts in college, so there's areas to his game that he needs to improve. Jumping the snap is something that comes with experience and film study.

 

I just disagree with everyone saying he isn't fast or athletic. If your defensive end is running for 40 yards in a straight line, that means you just gave up a TD. I don't put stock in combine numbers except for certain skill positions, and even then you have to primarily judge them by what they put on tape.

[JaCrispy]

#57 is my new favorite player...it’s gonna be so refreshing to watch a “throwback”, like him, play...?

[Paup 1995MVP]

Is Star really THAT slow?  Good god.  That is awful.  Was he walking?

[ngbills]

1 hour ago, DFT said:

I remember the same thing happening to Calais Campbell...  AJ will be fine.  

I was going to say in my OP that maybe he can be a Calais Campbell type. Wanted to include other names so was looking for other edge/DE guys with slow times and did not find too many...

56 minutes ago, MJS said:

Instead of listening to the media and looking up combine numbers, go watch him play. He's a dang good pass rusher. Hest also good against the run. He has excellent technique and strategy as a pass rusher. He uses his hands perhaps better than any prospect I have seen before. He has excellent power and is quick off the line.

Not that simple. Lots of guys with good tape dont have the speed or other qualities to excel in the NFL game.

[msw2112]

1 hour ago, DFT said:

I remember the same thing happening to Calais Campbell...  AJ will be fine.  

 

I think that Terrell Suggs also fell in the draft due to his more limited athleticism.  Some guys don't test well but are just great football players.  Let's hope AJ is one of those guys.  Other guys are great athletes and/or put up great combine numbers, but are not necessarily great football players.  Bills FB Jamie Mueller from the Super Bowl teams was one of those guys.  Mueller was a decent football player and a good guy to have on the roster, but he was not a standout on the field, despite stellar combine numbers.  His career stat are in the graphic below.  (My apologies - I can't figure out how to make the image larger, but if you click on it, it expands.)

 

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by msw2112

[ngbills]

2 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

 

I think that Terrell Suggs also fell in the draft due to his more limited athleticism.  Some guys don't test well but are just great football players.  Let's hope AJ is one of those guys.  Other guys are great athletes and/or put up great combine numbers, but are not necessarily great football players.  Bills FB Jamie Mueller from the Super Bowl teams was one of those guys.  Mueller was a decent football player and a good guy to have on the roster, but he was not a standout on the field, despite stellar combine numbers.  

 

 

Suggs ran a 4.8 - that is not bad. But for a top 5 pick on a edge guy you want a 4.6-4.7.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

I just saw a McDermott interview and he said can play out side and inside. 

[DFT]

1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I just saw a McDermott interview and he said can play out side and inside. 

He’ll be a really good stunt option IMO.

[BillsVet]

Three drills do not nearly form the basis for comparison for a given player's best position.  I'll give you one that isn't the whole story - Ed Oliver plays at (we're told) 285-290 on a 6''0-1 frame.  Epenesa is 6'4-5 and has been listed around 275-280.  Body composition notwithstanding, just comparing height/weight/speed is not telling anyone much of anything. 

 

Epenesa looks most like a 40 front LDE and was, in all likelihood, drafted to play there.  After all, they signed 2 DT's this off-season, drafted Oliver last year, already had Phillips and Star from the year before.

 

Let's not overthink this.  Especially because he's not going to be a 1 technique if he played inside and could (underscore could) bump inside to rush as a 3 tech.  Does that push out Oliver on passing downs?  I'd hope not considering Oliver's a top 10 pick.  Which situations does Epenesa move in? 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

14 minutes ago, DFT said:

He’ll be a really good stunt option IMO.

massive wing span and power stood out to me. I think he’ll be solid to very good.
 

stunting in general with Ed him... yeah might be good 

[MJS]

43 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

 

I think that Terrell Suggs also fell in the draft due to his more limited athleticism.  Some guys don't test well but are just great football players.  Let's hope AJ is one of those guys.  Other guys are great athletes and/or put up great combine numbers, but are not necessarily great football players.  Bills FB Jamie Mueller from the Super Bowl teams was one of those guys.  Mueller was a decent football player and a good guy to have on the roster, but he was not a standout on the field, despite stellar combine numbers.  His career stat are in the graphic below.  (My apologies - I can't figure out how to make the image larger, but if you click on it, it expands.)

 

 

 

Or rather, some positions aren't accurately tested for. What does a 40 yard dash have to do with a defensive end? Nothing, really. The tests are limited in what they can actually measure, especially when it comes to certain positions. I mean, they are almost meaningless for offensive linemen and quarterbacks. Almost meaningless for defensive linemen. I'd say they are most meaningful for defensive backs and wide receivers, and even then they don't predict success at all.

19 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

Three drills do not nearly form the basis for comparison for a given player's best position.  I'll give you one that isn't the whole story - Ed Oliver plays at (we're told) 285-290 on a 6''0-1 frame.  Epenesa is 6'4-5 and has been listed around 275-280.  Body composition notwithstanding, just comparing height/weight/speed is not telling anyone much of anything. 

 

Epenesa looks most like a 40 front LDE and was, in all likelihood, drafted to play there.  After all, they signed 2 DT's this off-season, drafted Oliver last year, already had Phillips and Star from the year before.

 

Let's not overthink this.  Especially because he's not going to be a 1 technique if he played inside and could (underscore could) bump inside to rush as a 3 tech.  Does that push out Oliver on passing downs?  I'd hope not considering Oliver's a top 10 pick.  Which situations does Epenesa move in? 

He could move inside on pass rushing downs (3rd and long) and it would be Hughes - Oliver - Epenesa - Addison.

 

But I'd imagine he'd be rushing from the edge a lot too, because he can and he's good at it.

[Motorin']

It's not 40 yards to the QB. And Epenesa looks pretty good at moving the 300 plus pound man between him and the QB out of the way. 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Motorin'

[Sherlock Holmes]

Good God, Oliver is a beast!

[FireChans]

5 tech and slide inside on passing downs.

[Bob in STL]

4 hours ago, ngbills said:

It is going to be a while before we see the new players hit the field. My biggest concern with AJ is his quickness and athleticism. Given that I would not be surprised to see him bumped inside more often than on the edge. End of the day it is about what he does on the field but for comparison purposes his times fit the DT mold more than DE. 

 

40 time

Epenesa: 5.04

Oliver: 4.73

Star: 5.41

H Phillips: 5.21

Taylor: 5.07

Murphy: 4.86

Addison: 4.70

Hughes: 4.65

Jefferson: 4.95

 

3 Cone

Epenesa: 7.34

Oliver: 7.15

Star: 7.66

H Phillips: 7.28

Taylor: 7.58

Murphy: 6.78

Addison: 6.96

Hughes: 6.99

Jefferson: 7.95 (must have slipped)

 

20 yd shuttle

Epenesa: 4.46

Oliver: 4.22

Star: 4.65

H Phillips: 4.50

Taylor: 4.59

Murphy: 4.20

Addison: 4.28

Jefferson: 4.95

Hughes: 4.15

Jefferson: 4.37

Interesting but Beane already said they can use him inside.  He can move and will move if that puts a compelling combination out there. 

I think he can be a very effective DE.  He can play every down, set the edge for the run game, and get to the QB.  Not a classic speed edge guy - an overall defensive end.  
 

Then there is heart, and he shows a lot.  Players that play hard like him tend to have enough game speed, which your straight line sprinting times don’t really show.  

Either way he could prove to be a great pickup.  

Edited May 1, 2020 by Bob in STL

[SoCal Deek]

So if he’s 1/2 of a second slower over 40 yards, that would make him 1/8th of a second slower getting to a opposing QB ten yards behind the line of scrimmage?  Doesn’t sound like much to me.

[BobbyC81]

4 hours ago, TigerJ said:

I think Epenesa and Jefferson will spend more of their time on the left side of the line and inside second.  Addison will rotate in mostly for Hughes.  Murphy may be lucky to hold on to a job, or he may get traded.  Epenesa's game is not about speed and bend.  Rather it is about leverage, power and balance.  I suspect in the pros, he won't be any more than a single digit sack guy, but if he's good versus the run, that may be enough.

Well, for those who like to reference the Combine stats, Murphy did very well.  He was first in the 3 Cone Drill, second in the 20 yd shuttle and  4th out of 9 in the 40 yd time.  His numbers of course are from a few years ago and don’t take into account his age and injury history.

[Buffalo Boy]

6 hours ago, freddyjj said:

He is a LDE on base D, Early downs and will play the strong side.  His job will be to hold the edge vs the run.  Shaq showed he could do it, Murphy...not so much.  On obvious passing downs McD and Frasier can now build a pass rush with Addison and Hughes outside and any combination of Jefferson/Epenesa and Oliver inside.  Alot like the Giants DLine in 2007.

 

[CaptnCoke11]

3 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

So if he’s 1/2 of a second slower over 40 yards, that would make him 1/8th of a second slower getting to a opposing QB ten yards behind the line of scrimmage?  Doesn’t sound like much to me.

But it’s everything to a hater..

[Happy]

6 hours ago, DFT said:

He’ll be a really good stunt option IMO.

 

If Frazier would actually call stunts.  Maybe now he will be more inclined to do so with Epenesa and Jefferson at the edges, at least we can hope.

[Logic]

6 minutes ago, Happy said:

 

If Frazier would actually call stunts.  Maybe now he will be more inclined to do so with Epenesa and Jefferson at the edges, at least we can hope.

 

You’re kidding, right?

[Happy]

26 minutes ago, Logic said:

 

You’re kidding, right?

 

No.  Why would I be?  We are typically vanilla up front.  Frazier gets creative with his disguised coverages in the back field.

[Logic]

27 minutes ago, Happy said:

 

No.  Why would I be?  We are typically vanilla up front.  Frazier gets creative with his disguised coverages in the back field.

 

I disagree with your contention.

 

The Bills defensive line employs plenty of stunts. 

 

Jerry and Kyle, in particular, were a lethal combo in this regard. 

 

[Happy]

9 hours ago, Logic said:

 

I disagree with your contention.

 

The Bills defensive line employs plenty of stunts. 

 

Jerry and Kyle, in particular, were a lethal combo in this regard. 

 

 

By Kyle, you mean Kyle Williams, I assume?  Maybe they stunted more under Jim Schwartz or Wrex.

 

I don't recall them doing much stunting at all last year.  Even in season's past, Leslie Frazier is not the type to be aggressive up front.  I'm wondering if that would be any different if McD, himself, was the DC.  I don't recall what Carolina did as far as the line goes.

 

Anyway, Leslie is fairly conservative regarding what he does with the line.

[Buffaloed in Pa]

I dont think Suggs was the fastest either. He was a beast

[MrSarcasm]

21 hours ago, ngbills said:

It is going to be a while before we see the new players hit the field. My biggest concern with AJ is his quickness and athleticism. Given that I would not be surprised to see him bumped inside more often than on the edge. End of the day it is about what he does on the field but for comparison purposes his times fit the DT mold more than DE. 

 

40 time

Epenesa: 5.04

Oliver: 4.73

Star: 5.41

H Phillips: 5.21

Taylor: 5.07

Murphy: 4.86

Addison: 4.70

Hughes: 4.65

Jefferson: 4.95

 

3 Cone

Epenesa: 7.34

Oliver: 7.15

Star: 7.66

H Phillips: 7.28

Taylor: 7.58

Murphy: 6.78

Addison: 6.96

Hughes: 6.99

Jefferson: 7.95 (must have slipped)

 

20 yd shuttle

Epenesa: 4.46

Oliver: 4.22

Star: 4.65

H Phillips: 4.50

Taylor: 4.59

Murphy: 4.20

Addison: 4.28

Jefferson: 4.95

Hughes: 4.15

Jefferson: 4.37

So Hughes is/was a freak. That's what I got from this. Wow, how did Indy use him poorly enough to trade him? Where would Hughes of ended up in this years draft?

Edited May 2, 2020 by MrSarcasm