Front office incompetence is going to ruin Darnold just like Rosen

[BurpleBull]

1 hour ago, CorkScrewHill said:

Jets dysfunction makes 2 games a year easier to win as the Bills continue to improve. I am pretty confidant that Bill Belichick has been very interested in the dysfunction of the Bills since he got to New England and has used it to his advantage. It would be wonderful to be on the other end of that with teams going forward.

 

I'm pretty sure the Pats have been more about holding themselves to a high standard and playing up to that standard year in and year out; that's all I care about with the Bills moving forward, follow that model, and things should fall in place regardless of what's going on outside of the organization.

 

 

[BuffaloBillies]

8 hours ago, syhuang said:

Darnold is the worst QB against blitz. On the side note, look who is the fifth worst.

 

 

 

Brady turns into a little girl against the Blitz and throws a 3 yard intentional grounding pass (which never gets called) instead of trying to make a play despite a hit coming. Wuss

 

[buffaloboyinATL]

20 minutes ago, BuffaloBillies said:

 

Brady turns into a little girl against the Blitz and throws a 3 yard intentional grounding pass (which never gets called) instead of trying to make a play despite a hit coming. Wuss

 

That’s how Marino was towards the end of his career to. Seemed like he’d rather throw a pick than get hit.  

[Bangarang]

2 hours ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Do you really believe that Rosen has not had success because of front office incompetence ?

He’s been placed on two of the worst teams and in the case of the Cardinals, a poorly coached one as well. Even if you don’t like him as a prospect or as a person you’d have to agree that he’s been set up to fail from the beginning

[hemma]

9 hours ago, GETTOTHE50 said:

Keep signing linemen. On both sides of the ball, and get Derrick Henry plz. 

 

I agree 100%. 

Been thinking for awhile we need that hammer.

[billsfan_34]

9 hours ago, GETTOTHE50 said:

Keep signing linemen. On both sides of the ball, and get Derrick Henry plz. 

I am down with Derrick Henry! 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Jets got to get their o-line fixed. But they'll probably do something dumb like back up the brinks truck to sign Cooper. 

 

The thing that would scare me the most about Darnold if I were a Jets fan is how terrible he is when under serious pressure. Throwing balls up for grabs off his back foot. Even if or when the Jets get a good o-line they will still have games where they get pressured by great defenses. What will Sam do?

[nucci]

7 hours ago, BurpleBull said:

Uhhh, who cares?

we do...it's the NFL and our division rival....it's why we're here

[JESSEFEFFER]

10 hours ago, whatdrought said:

I hope Darnold is a slow bust who takes years of that franchises time only to end up being a scrub.

 

Lets hope we can make an SAT analogy question of them.  Darnold, Rosen and Mayfield are to 2018 as Blackledge, Eason and O'Brien are to 1983.  

[aristocrat]

It’s crazy how the offense this year is completely different from last year. Does gase have the smarts and the available guys to do that? 

[JESSEFEFFER]

9 hours ago, syhuang said:

Darnold is the worst QB against blitz. On the side note, look who is the fifth worst.

 

 

 

I do not respect this list much.  Did the protection hold up or fail?  Did it involve a stunt and did the protection block it?  Last year's o-line was worthless against a line stunt.  Did the blitz result in a sack, sack/fumble or a throwaway?  The NFL passer rating only accounts for the latter outcome which is better than the prior  two which are not accounted for.  Did the QB break the pocket and run for a score or first down?   This time great outcomes that are not accounted for in the passer rating formula.

 

Passer rating ignores some of the best and worst outcomes that actually translate into winning football games.

[Thurman#1]

7 hours ago, Charles Romes said:

People are now giving the front office credit for properly bringing Josh along. In fact Allen against all odds carried the front office.  He was good enough to salvage something from the 2018 season which by all rights should have ruined him. They surrounded him with a receiving corps that included Kelvin Benjamin as a number one, no offensive line, and no quarterback room until half the season was over. 

 

 

That's nonsense that this "by all rights should have ruined him." Plenty of rookie QBs on rebuilding teams came onto teams without much around them. Think Troy Aikman. Joe Montana. Peyton Manning. Plenty of others. I suppose it might have ruined some players but again, lots of franchise QBs brought in during rebuilds had little talent around them the first year. If the GM brings in guys to fill in after that, plenty of those QBs go on to become franchise guys, if they have it in them in the first place.

 

The Bills used virtually no resources on the offense before that year, except to bring in Allen himself. That was the plan, and it has worked out fine indeed, largely because by skimping on the offense and getting rid of big salaries, they cleared up the cap superbly, allowing them to address the offensive side this year.

 

Anyway, there's every evidence they didn't want Allen to play that year or at least not till the end. But they screwed up (they have admitted this) by not bringing in Derek Anderson when they let McCarron go.

 

Allen has certainly done his part.

 

So has the front office. They have been terrific by all evidence.

[Buddo]

2 hours ago, mannc said:

Or maybe Darnold was never good to begin with...

How was it a “great pre-emptive move” to give away three second round picks in order to chose Darnold, instead of staying where they were and taking Allen?

 

Because it gave them the choice of whichever QB the Browns didn't take. The fact you (and I) believe they made the wrong choice, is irrelevant, what matters is that they gave themselves the most choice they could, short of trading to the #1 pick.

[MDH]

1 hour ago, whatdrought said:

 

I hate these graphics cause they never link to the full list... Where is Allen on this? 

 

 

I don't know where he rates for the entire season but I did see a line at the bottom of NFL network that said the Ravens blitz more than any other team in the league and hold opposing QBs to a passer rating of 65 (or right around there) which is also best in the league.

 

Allen, it said, had a passer rating of over 100 vs. the blitz in his last 7 games.

[whatdrought]

13 minutes ago, MDH said:

 

I don't know where he rates for the entire season but I did see a line at the bottom of NFL network that said the Ravens blitz more than any other team in the league and hold opposing QBs to a passer rating of 65 (or right around there) which is also best in the league.

 

Allen, it said, had a passer rating of over 100 vs. the blitz in his last 7 games.

 

[mannc]

1 hour ago, Buddo said:

 

Because it gave them the choice of whichever QB the Browns didn't take. The fact you (and I) believe they made the wrong choice, is irrelevant, what matters is that they gave themselves the most choice they could, short of trading to the #1 pick.

And they would have been better off sitting at 6 and taking JA.  So it was an arrogant and wrong decision.  They had no idea which of the QBs was going to be best.  You don’t think the Jests could use those 3 second round picks right now?

[CircleTheWagons99]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it always. You can never really trust a USC QB. Most of them don’t pan out. 

[Bing Bong]

Is Darnold really even supposed to be that good though?

[Dont Stop Billeiving]

12 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

https://forums.theganggreen.com/threads/2019-is-over-stick-a-fork-in-us.93232/page-4

 

"A HR to me this offseason would be improving the OL first and then the secondary. This isn't going to be a quick fix. I expect it to take a couple of years before the Jets can be a Super Bowl contender. Fix the OL and that will help Darnold and Bell which will help us become more competitive. Like everyone else I am tired of 4-12, 5-11 type of seasons. If the Bills can turn it around then why can't the Jets."

 

Saw this post on Gang Green, the Jets version of TBD, after the Jets were beat down by the winless Bengals.  This sounds familiar.  The Bills were in the same boat last off season with sub-par O-line play.  Fortunately, Beane made it a priority to address it during the off season and he has turned a team weakness into a strength and that has allowed Allen to continue to develop. Darnold has not been as lucky.  He is getting hammered in the pocket and running for his life seemingly every snap.  He's going to end up just like Josh Rosen.

 

From a selfish Bills point of view I hope the Jet's management continues to bring in the shiny toys like Le'veon Bell this off season and continues to neglect the O-line.  It's amazing to me that ordinary fans like the Jet's poster above has more insight on how to build a successful football team than the "experts" in the front office of these football franchises. A flashy RB is nice but the O-Line is the engine of any offense.  If you have no O-line, nothing else really matters.  Investing in a "franchise QB" like Darnold and then not making any moves to shore up the bad O-line in front of him is football GM malpractice.   Looking at these Jets fans in purgatory reminds me how lucky we are to finally have a front office that seems to get it, that has a plan, and is systematically working the plan.  

 

Agree 100%. Think any reasonable person could have seen this coming which says a lot about the Jets former front office. Regardless of what side of the 'pay vs don't pay RBs' debate you are on, shelling out big bucks for Bell never made sense behind that terrible O-line.

 

Going back to the offseason, the top two Centers available were Morse and Matt Paradis (in some order) and most people expected one of them to sign with the Jets given their huge need and cap space. Not sure how Paradis has played in Carolina, but Morse (although slightly overpaid) has been a massive upgrade over Groy who is out of the league. 

 

Our front office has their priorities straight and let's hope our division rivals don't learn their lessons. Go Bills, excited for this game tomorrow!

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Kyler Murray second worst against the blitz.  Told you he was a bust!  Should be on the clearance rack any day now.  ?

[ogham26]

12 hours ago, BillsVet said:

I still remember one Saturday morning in March 2018 when so many TBD'ers went ape-sh** after NYJ sent 3 second rounders to Indianapolis to move up to take Darnold.

 

The demand from a lot of fans that day was Beane "do something" and for some that meant trading from 12 to 2 no matter the cost.  Funny how things play out. 

 

Reminds me of Marv Levy's comment about not listening to the fans because you'll wind up next to them if you do.  

 

 

 

things could have gotten bad tho..this regime wasn't likely to take lamar Jackson and if Denver would have taken allen we would've been shut out.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

To be fair, he hurdled one LB, one time. ☺

 

After which one time, his LB teammates and his coaches led him gently to a seat in the woodshed and said:  "That was Dope.  NEVER do that Again!"

I am also of the opinion that over the course of last season, Shady showed Josh a few moves - at least, he seems to have moved from hurdling guys, to just making them miss.

 

Which is less "Dope" but just as satisfying

[starrymessenger]

Jets have a lot of problems, O-line being just one of them. They can't pressure the quarterback so they draft another DT, Q. Williams, ahead of Josh Allen (the pass rusher). Q winds up just replacing L. Williams, with his talent relegated to run stuffing. There are some good DTs in the next draft. They will likely wind up picking another one lol. Their secondary is in need of an overhaul almost as much as their O-line. I would have no confidence in Gase. Right now it's not looking good for Sam. I see his floor as being another Andy Dalton, with his ceiling as somewhat higher. But his HC is a bug eyed zombie.

Oddly, I actually see Rosen in a better place. Unlike most rotten branches of the Belichick tree, Brian Flores strikes me as someone who might actually be quite good. We will see if they decide to go with Rosen or draft another QB. 

The AFCE has been a boring division for more than a decade now. I wouldn't mind seeing a more competitive landscape TBH. And I suspect it will be.

Edited December 7, 2019 by starrymessenger

[ColoradoBills]

10 hours ago, Charles Romes said:

People are now giving the front office credit for properly bringing Josh along. In fact Allen against all odds carried the front office.  He was good enough to salvage something from the 2018 season which by all rights should have ruined him. They surrounded him with a receiving corps that included Kelvin Benjamin as a number one, no offensive line, and no quarterback room until half the season was over. 

 

While all that is true the way it worked out let's remember the plan was for AJ McCarron to be QB while JA sat and learned for most of the year.

[CincyBillsFan]

10 hours ago, Charles Romes said:

People are now giving the front office credit for properly bringing Josh along. In fact Allen against all odds carried the front office.  He was good enough to salvage something from the 2018 season which by all rights should have ruined him. They surrounded him with a receiving corps that included Kelvin Benjamin as a number one, no offensive line, and no quarterback room until half the season was over. 

 

I agree with you 100% here.  They messed up with Allen big time last season and the fact he survived is probably the biggest indication that he will be a special QB.

 

I like both McD and Bean and think they're doing a great overall job.  But with Allen they couldn't have screwed up more if they were trying. 

 

*  First they clearly intended to sit him for the 2018 season but didn't create a QB room that would allow that to happen.

 

*  Second, they gave Allen precious few first team reps during training camp & the preseason games and yet because they completely messed up the QB room Allen was starting in week 2! 

 

*  Third, their original QB room was a joke if the idea was to develop a young QB.  They had a 2nd year QB with some of the worst performances by a QB in the modern era and they traded away their veteran QB after the last preseason game.  So there was NO ONE there during the first few games to help Allen as he transitioned into the starter.

 

*  The offensive talent around Allen was abysmal - every bit as bad as what Arizona surrounded Rosen with.  As I recall, Benjamin dropped at least 2 Allen TD passes in the short time they played together.  And the only thing good about last years O-line was that it enabled us to see how dangerous Allen was running for his life.

 

Now to give Bean & McD credit they got things under control fast and provided Allen with a much better situation in the 2nd half of the season.  But anyone who claims Allen had it "easy" out of the gate in Buffalo is flat out wrong.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

While all that is true the way it worked out let's remember the plan was for AJ McCarron to be QB while JA sat and learned for most of the year.

 

But I think that was his point - the plan to have McCarron start while Allen developed obviously wasn't well thought out. 

 

All's well that ends well but we should be even more impressed with what Allen had to overcome.  As good as our management/coaching has been, and IMO they've been very good, they messed up a bit here.

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

While all that is true the way it worked out let's remember the plan was for AJ McCarron to be QB while JA sat and learned for most of the year.

 

What I don't understand is why the FO thought AJ McCarron/Nate Peterman as QB with no OL and Kelvin Benjamin as a #1 was a good plan.

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

That's nonsense that this "by all rights should have ruined him." Plenty of rookie QBs on rebuilding teams came onto teams without much around them. Think Troy Aikman. Joe Montana. Peyton Manning. Plenty of others. I suppose it might have ruined some players but again, lots of franchise QBs brought in during rebuilds had little talent around them the first year. If the GM brings in guys to fill in after that, plenty of those QBs go on to become franchise guys, if they have it in them in the first place.

 

The Bills used virtually no resources on the offense before that year, except to bring in Allen himself. That was the plan, and it has worked out fine indeed, largely because by skimping on the offense and getting rid of big salaries, they cleared up the cap superbly, allowing them to address the offensive side this year.

 

Anyway, there's every evidence they didn't want Allen to play that year or at least not till the end. But they screwed up (they have admitted this) by not bringing in Derek Anderson when they let McCarron go.

 

Allen has certainly done his part.

 

So has the front office. They have been terrific by all evidence.

 

And this is why I've been on the Allen train from the start.  He had to overcome a bad situation that management placed him in and he did. 

 

Now the question is whether Darnold can do the same.  I think he can based on what I've seen to date but it's comforting to know our guy already has.

 

 

 

 

[Rampage]

The Jets haven't had a good GM for as long as I remember. Had Rex Ryan had a QB I feel like the history of this division would have played out differently over the last decade. Miami has been a mess just as long but haven't had anything going for them.

[BuffaloBill963]

6 hours ago, Gigs said:

I've been saying this since before that draft, that Darnold is as good as he will ever be. He doesnt have a high ceiling, but he also doesnt have a low floor; he is what he is. 

I don’t watch the Jets much—what’s the lowdown on Darnold? What’s he doing well and not so we’ll at this point? 

[ColoradoBills]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

What I don't understand is why the FO thought AJ McCarron/Nate Peterman as QB with no OL and Kelvin Benjamin as a #1 was a good plan.

 

I don't think it was a good plan for the 2018 season when it came to the offense.

Although I believe Beane and McDermott didn't either.  They only had so much resources and chose to spend a lot of it on D.

They spent a lot of capital on just getting JA and the few other moves were complete misses.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

22 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I agree with you 100% here.  They messed up with Allen big time last season and the fact he survived is probably the biggest indication that he will be a special QB.

I like both McD and Bean and think they're doing a great overall job.  But with Allen they couldn't have screwed up more if they were trying. 

*  First they clearly intended to sit him for the 2018 season but didn't create a QB room that would allow that to happen.

*  Second, they gave Allen precious few first team reps during training camp & the preseason games and yet because they completely messed up the QB room Allen was starting in week 2! 

*  Third, their original QB room was a joke if the idea was to develop a young QB.  They had a 2nd year QB with some of the worst performances by a QB in the modern era and they traded away their veteran QB after the last preseason game.  So there was NO ONE there during the first few games to help Allen as he transitioned into the starter.

*  The offensive talent around Allen was abysmal - every bit as bad as what Arizona surrounded Rosen with.  As I recall, Benjamin dropped at least 2 Allen TD passes in the short time they played together.  And the only thing good about last years O-line was that it enabled us to see how dangerous Allen was running for his life.

 

I agree completely, with the (minor) caveat that I think Rosen had better offensive talent in AZ.  The Ghost of Larry Fitzgerald >> Kelvin Benjamin,  Christian Kirk > Zay Jones, The Ghost of Jermaine Gresham >> Charles Clay, David Johnson 940 yds, 3.6 ypc Lesean McCoy 514 yds, 3.2 ypc; Mike Iupati and Andre Smith can actually play OL which is more than I can say for Vlad Ducasse and Jordan Mills.

 

Which actually strengthens your point.

 

I do think Allen having to play as he did last season did give him some bad habits he had to spend the first part of this season working away from.

 

Quote

Now to give Bean & McD credit they got things under control fast and provided Allen with a much better situation in the 2nd half of the season.  But anyone who claims Allen had it "easy" out of the gate in Buffalo is flat out wrong.

 

Has anyone claimed this?

 

Quote

But I think that was his point - the plan to have McCarron start while Allen developed obviously wasn't well thought out. 

 

All's well that ends well but we should be even more impressed with what Allen had to overcome.  As good as our management/coaching has been, and IMO they've been very good, they messed up a bit here.

 

I think they messed up A Lot, not A Bit.  But it may have worked out for the best - Allen got a hard lesson in how different the NFL is from anything he knew, and how much he'd have to put in if he wanted to succeed here.

 

7 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

I don't think it was a good plan for the 2018 season when it came to the offense.

Although I believe Beane and McDermott didn't either.  They only had so much resources and chose to spend a lot of it on D.

They spent a lot of capital on just getting JA and the few other moves were complete misses.

 

The concerning thing to me is that they did make moves and expend resources on offense, it's just all the moves they made were misses.

 

The only ameliorating factor I can find is that perhaps Beane made a strategic decision that they should be "All In", every resource they had, devoted to scouting QB and defense and making the best decisions they could there, so they really didn't put a lot of hosses on scouting WR, OL etc. 

 

They seem to have made much better decisions this off season, so they must be able to do it if they try.

[CincyBillsFan]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Has anyone claimed this?

 

 

Not today, but during Allen's rookie year some of the "wrong Josh" folks kept saying that Allen had a better situation then Rosen! 

 

 

[Logic]

I agree with the notion that the terrible Jets front office and coaching staff will do their level best to destroy Sam Darnold. Gase, in particular, will be a toxic influence on him. Just look at how good Ryan Tannehil has been ever since he got out from under Gase.

I do NOT agree, however, that Darnold will ultimately end up being a bust. I think he's going to be a good player in this league for a long time, despite the Jets' best efforts to ruin him. I expect Allen vs Darnold to be prominent matchup in the AFC East for years to come. 

[ColoradoBills]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The concerning thing to me is that they did make moves and expend resources on offense, it's just all the moves they made were misses.

 

The only ameliorating factor I can find is that perhaps Beane made a strategic decision that they should be "All In", every resource they had, devoted to scouting QB and defense and making the best decisions they could there, so they really didn't put a lot of hosses on scouting WR, OL etc. 

 

They seem to have made much better decisions this off season, so they must be able to do it if they try.

 

I believe it to be so.

The other speculation on my part was the Castillo liked Bodine, Newhouse and Ducasse and convinced McD he could put together

an acceptable OL for Shady to run behind.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 minutes ago, BuffaloBill963 said:

I don’t watch the Jets much—what’s the lowdown on Darnold? What’s he doing well and not so we’ll at this point? 

 

I didn't see the recent loss against Cincy. 

 

Darnold has had three bad games - one terrible horrible no-good, very bad day against NE, a follow-on poor outing against Jax, and his opening game against us. 

 

The rest of the time, I thought he's played OK for where he is and what he has.  He's leaving passing yards on the field but so does Allen sometimes.  He hasn't thrown too many picks except in the NE and Jax bad games.  Fumbles a bit too much - mostly recovered, but still needs improvement.  Bell hasn't been able to make up for the lack of passing productivity and Darnold isn't a threat to do so.

 

 

11 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Not today, but during Allen's rookie year some of the "wrong Josh" folks kept saying that Allen had a better situation then Rosen!

 

OK, well, they were wrong!

[C.Biscuit97]

1) still not giving up on Rosen.  His situations have been criminal.  I hope a real franchise gets him and tries to develop him.

 

2) situation absolutely matters.  I think Darnold would be really successful here as well.  I underestimated how terrible of a leader Gase is.  Even though the Bills were an absolute disaster with their offensive decisions for Allen’s rookie, they have done a really good judge this year.  I can’t believe I’m saying this but Buffalo is a good situation for a qb right now.

[Dr.Sack]

Darnold will be the Marino to Allen’s Kelly. Darnold will be a good QB. 

[Doc]

Rosen is toast.  The Dols had every reason to play him and opted not to and that should speak volumes.

 

As for the Jets, good luck getting FA's.

[Troll Toll]

14 hours ago, BillsVet said:

I still remember one Saturday morning in March 2018 when so many TBD'ers went ape-sh** after NYJ sent 3 second rounders to Indianapolis to move up to take Darnold.

 

The demand from a lot of fans that day was Beane "do something" and for some that meant trading from 12 to 2 no matter the cost.  Funny how things play out. 

 

Reminds me of Marv Levy's comment about not listening to the fans because you'll wind up next to them if you do.  

 

 

To keep things in perspective, at the time we didn’t think the Giants were dumb enough to draft a RB at 2. The Jets trade made it seem like the the top 3 QBs would be gone in picks 1, 2, and 3 and we were going to miss out on a QB despite all of our “draft capital”. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

I believe it to be so.

The other speculation on my part was the Castillo liked Bodine, Newhouse and Ducasse and convinced McD he could put together

an acceptable OL for Shady to run behind.

 

Castillo brought Ducasse with him from Baltimore, IIRC.  Don't know about the other two.  They could have had Pouncey instead of Bodine

They would have had to pay him more - but it would surely have been a better investment than $3.5M for a couple weeks of Corey Coleman.

OTOH, Pouncey is out on IR with a neck injury now and who knows when/if he'll be back

44 minutes ago, Doc said:

Rosen is toast.  The Dols had every reason to play him and opted not to and that should speak volumes.

As for the Jets, good luck getting FA's.

 

Ha!  I think it speaks volumes but the volumes it speaks is to just what Fitzpatrick has still got "going on".

Fitzmagic is real, and part of it is charisma.  Part of it is football intelligence, and from the sound of it, Rosen had less of that then he thought he did. ?

 

Jordan Palmer, who was beat out by Fitzy in Cincy despite having the "in" of being the starter's blood relative, said "he is one of the hardest guys to compete against in a locker room - because he's so LIKEABLE"