Receiver competition with two games left

[CSBill]

5 hours ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

Am I crazy for wanting Duke on the team over Zay? Duke looks like he has way better hands for contested catches over the middle. 

 

 

I like Zay Jones, but based on what we've seen in two games, I would have to agree.

[DuckyBoys]

Tough to figure what they are thinking.  Given John Brown's past inability to stay healthy I would assume Foster sticks.  Nobody else has that type speed. 

My best guess:

Brown

Beasley

Roberts

Foster

Jones

Williams

 

[Shaw66]

34 minutes ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

 

I wasn't referring to you, actually.  I'm a big fan of your posts.  I should have quoted others.  My bad.  That being said, I think Foster is an absolute lock.  For an UDFA to have contributed as much as he did last year, and then to all of a sudden just throw him to the curb... doesn't make sense to me.

Well, we're on the outside, so we don't really know.  Maybe Foster is a lock so they don't need to see him.  But as I said above, this is about team building.  McBeane have to be thinking simultaneously about what makes the team better in September, in December and in 2020.  

 

If they have someone on board who isn't as valuable as Foster now, but likely will be as valuable as Foster in December, then the team may be better off trading Foster now for a pick in 2020.  And "as valuable as Foster" doesn't mean that he has the same characteristics as Foster - he could be valuable in different ways.  

 

The point is that right now the Bills seem to have 7 or 8 receiving assets with some current and some future value.  The question is how to manage those to have the most value from all of them over time.  That probably means trading someone.   Trading a receiver today may mean the Bills have a better backup safety next year without materially reducing the strength of the receiving corps. 

 

It's like the Eagles trading Bradford or the Chiefs tradio Alex Smith.  So even though Foster was a starter and looked liked like a comer doesn't mean he won't be dealt. 

[{::'KayCeeS::}]

11 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, we're on the outside, so we don't really know.  Maybe Foster is a lock so they don't need to see him.  But as I said above, this is about team building.  McBeane have to be thinking simultaneously about what makes the team better in September, in December and in 2020.  

 

If they have someone on board who isn't as valuable as Foster now, but likely will be as valuable as Foster in December, then the team may be better off trading Foster now for a pick in 2020.  And "as valuable as Foster" doesn't mean that he has the same characteristics as Foster - he could be valuable in different ways.  

 

The point is that right now the Bills seem to have 7 or 8 receiving assets with some current and some future value.  The question is how to manage those to have the most value from all of them over time.  That probably means trading someone.   Trading a receiver today may mean the Bills have a better backup safety next year without materially reducing the strength of the receiving corps. 

 

It's like the Eagles trading Bradford or the Chiefs tradio Alex Smith.  So even though Foster was a starter and looked liked like a comer doesn't mean he won't be dealt. 

 

A very well articulated point.  Still, Foster is a lock.  Because he doesn't have the value of Bradford or Alex Smith.

Edited August 18, 2019 by {::'KayCeeS::}

[PlayoffsPlease]

6 hours ago, HOUSE said:

With Tyree Jackson on the field it is impossible to judge any WR playing in the 2nd half,something needs to change here

They do have practices. 

[Shaw66]

7 minutes ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

 

A very well articulated point.  Still, Foster is a lock.  Because he doesn't have the value of Bradford or Alex Smith.

No he doesn't have the same value.  But there is some receivee on the Bills roster right now who probably will be on another team's roster week one.  The Bills can cut that guy or get a fifth, sixth or seventh for him.  Why not get the pick?   The question is who?  Foster, Jones and Williams are the most likely answers. 

[PlayoffsPlease]

Obvously gettting a future pick beats simply cutting a guy, but how often does a teams 8th best WR get traded for a pick? Don't other teams just wait for cuts? 

 

[Magox]

Barring any trades

 

Brown

Beasley

Zay Jones

Foster

Robert's

 

Are all locks

 

Foster's on the field performance last year cannot be ignored and if he were to be cut this would be the first move of Beanes that I have seen that I'd question.  I just dont think that will happen.

 

Zay was Allen's top target last year, is a process guy and has good rapport with Allen.  If he isnt traded he wont be cut.

 

I had Ray Ray ahead of Duke last week, not any more.  Duke is turning it up and my guess is he will get some time with the 1's over this week and lots with the 2's to see whether or not of he is beginning to blossom.  With that said McKenzie has shown he can produce when it counts and he has more special teams value than Duke.  So he definitely has the edge.  But Duke is a physical receiver who can block and high point it and that is something the Bills like.

 

 

[Shaw66]

24 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

Obvously gettting a future pick beats simply cutting a guy, but how often does a teams 8th best WR get traded for a pick? Don't other teams just wait for cuts? 

 

That's the point. You don't trade your 8th best receiver.  You trade your fifth best receiver fora pick because your 6th and Th best receivers are good enough now and have good potential.  You have to give up something to get something.  

 

As other people have said, how important, really, is your fifth best receiver?  If your starters are, say, Beasley, Brown and Jones, and Roberts is locked, how important is Foster?  Or if Foster is your starter, how important is Jones?  If you can get a pick for one of them, and if you like McKenzie and Williams, why not pick up the pick?

12 minutes ago, Magox said:

Barring any trades

 

Brown

Beasley

Zay Jones

Foster

Robert's

 

Are all locks

 

Foster's on the field performance last year cannot be ignored and if he were to be cut this would be the first move of Beanes that I have seen that I'd question.  I just dont think that will happen.

 

Zay was Allen's top target last year, is a process guy and has good rapport with Allen.  If he isnt traded he wont be cut.

 

I had Ray Ray ahead of Duke last week, not any more.  Duke is turning it up and my guess is he will get some time with the 1's over this week and lots with the 2's to see whether or not of he is beginning to blossom.  With that said McKenzie has shown he can produce when it counts and he has more special teams value than Duke.  So he definitely has the edge.  But Duke is a physical receiver who can block and high point it and that is something the Bills like.

 

 

What you have to look for is a trade, not a cut.  I agree Foster and Jones aren't likely to get cut.  I think its possible one of them gets traded. 

[PlayoffsPlease]

4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

That's the point. You don't trade your 8th best receiver.  You trade your fifth best receiver fora pick because your 6th and Th best receivers are good enough now and have good potential.  You have to give up something to get something.  

 

As other people have said, how important, really, is your fifth best receiver?  If your starters are, say, Beasley, Brown and Jones, and Roberts is locked, how important is Foster?  Or if Foster is your starter, how important is Jones?  If you can get a pick for one of them, and if you like McKenzie and Williams, why not pick up the pick?

What you have to look for is a trade, not a cut.  I agree Foster and Jones aren't likely to get cut.  I think its possible one of them gets traded. 

How many teams trade for another teams fifth best receiver.  Real question. Not just trying to argue.  It seems more theoretical than real. 

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, Rocky Landing said:

I think a lot of folks here consider it a given that there will be six WRs. I don't believe this is the case. Beane had mentioned on more than one occasion the possibility of only carrying five. I also think that we could carry four TEs, and four RBs, which would make a five WR scenario almost certain. And, at that point, I think the competition if far less settled. Brown, Beasley, Roberts, Jones, Foster would be the conventional wisdom, but I could certainly see Jones, or Foster losing out to some of the other guys fighting for a spot.

 

I remember him saying that but I still believe 6 is the number.  

I can also see where after cuts one of the bubble guys will be available for the PS.

[purple haze]

7 hours ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

Am I crazy for wanting Duke on the team over Zay? Duke looks like he has way better hands for contested catches over the middle. 

 

Yeah, you're crazy.  I understand folks feeling like Zay is underwhelming when considering his draft position, but he's a decent player who has made plays in games that count.  Duke has three catches in two pre-season games.  And where has he been the rest of camp?   Don't be a victim of regency bias.  I'd keep McKenzie over Duke.  McKenzie has made plays in games that count and he's made plays in the pre-season games and in camp consistently too.

 

Bills don't need a tall WR.  They need good WR's whatever size it comes in.

Edited August 18, 2019 by purple haze

[Mrbojanglezs]

22 minutes ago, purple haze said:

Yeah, you're crazy.  I understand folks feeling like Zay is underwhelming when considering his draft position, but he's a decent player who has made plays in games that count.  Duke has three catches in two pre-season games.  And where has he been the rest of camp?   Don't be a victim of regency bias.  I'd keep McKenzie over Duke.  McKenzie has made plays in games that count and he's made plays in the pre-season games and in camp consistently too.

 

Bills don't need a tall WR.  They need good WR's whatever size it comes in.

 

My reason for wanting Duke isn't because of his height. It is that he is physical, goes up and gets the ball, and seems to have very good hands. 

 

Zay underwhelms in all those departments. 

[{::'KayCeeS::}]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

No he doesn't have the same value.  But there is some receivee on the Bills roster right now who probably will be on another team's roster week one.  The Bills can cut that guy or get a fifth, sixth or seventh for him.  Why not get the pick?   The question is who?  Foster, Jones and Williams are the most likely answers. 

 

I think you overestimate the value of the WR's.

 

Think about it for a minute: how many sure-fire WR's do we have on our roster?

 

You want to trade them away?

[WideNine]

I think Brown and Beasley are pretty sure bets so I guess you could use the word "lock", after that I think coaches balance what they have seen in camp and scrimmages with an eye to role depth.

 

Brown - speed to stretch the defense you have Foster or Roberts who could fill in a pinch.

Beasley - quick slot receiver and for that role you have Mckenzie or Ray Ray

 

In scenarios above you have the real possibility of losing Foster over Roberts with his dual-role - Foster seems to find himself in the dog house often as well last year and this year and I am not sure what that is about, and we may never know but it is a factor.

 

Ray Ray made a push in camp, but I think McKenzie has shown more in real game scenarios.

 

It is that last role: The taller receiver with some strength who can beat the jam, catch and protect contested passes, and high-point the ball that is the area where it gets interesting with Zay, and Duke primarily having the right build. Out of the two I would not say that Zay has it locked down as Williams has shown plenty of compete and he has played in a league (albeit not the NFL), so it is safe to say he is not some wide-eyed rookie with just a bit a good camp film. They could keep both and Zay has some trade value if the inconsistencies keep cropping up.

 

I also like what I have seen from Nick Easley and Cam has flashed some in camp. Some hard decisions coming up around this crop of WRs and it is a good problem for the Bills to have.

 

As to the TE's I think Sweeney and Knox are locks, and probably Croom sticks as he is familiar with the offense then I am not sure. They still could put Kroft on the reserve PUP list as some insurance down the road and give that gimpy foot more time to heal correctly and he wont count against the roster. Then one more for the active roster. Anyone else would have to clear waivers if they want to stash him on the PS if eligible or they would have to cut him if he is an NFL vet.

 

[Patrick Duffy]

1 hour ago, purple haze said:

Yeah, you're crazy.  I understand folks feeling like Zay is underwhelming when considering his draft position, but he's a decent player who has made plays in games that count.  Duke has three catches in two pre-season games.  And where has he been the rest of camp?   Don't be a victim of regency bias.  I'd keep McKenzie over Duke.  McKenzie has made plays in games that count and he's made plays in the pre-season games and in camp consistently too.

 

Bills don't need a tall WR.  They need good WR's whatever size it comes in.

 

Nah, nobody is crazy for wanting a WR that catches the ball pretty regularly over one that doesn't.

 

Second bolded, yes I agree they need good WR's, but Zay just isn't one. As of yet anyways...

[Wayne Arnold]

3 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

I think a lot of folks here consider it a given that there will be six WRs. I don't believe this is the case. Beane had mentioned on more than one occasion the possibility of only carrying five. I also think that we could carry four TEs, and four RBs, which would make a five WR scenario almost certain. And, at that point, I think the competition if far less settled. Brown, Beasley, Roberts, Jones, Foster would be the conventional wisdom, but I could certainly see Jones, or Foster losing out to some of the other guys fighting for a spot.

 

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I remember him saying that but I still believe 6 is the number.  

I can also see where after cuts one of the bubble guys will be available for the PS.

 

I could easily see the Bills keeping seven receivers on the initial 53 man roster this season. It has become the deepest unit on the team.

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, DuckyBoys said:

Tough to figure what they are thinking.  Given John Brown's past inability to stay healthy I would assume Foster sticks.  Nobody else has that type speed. 

My best guess:

Brown

Beasley

Roberts

Foster

Jones

Williams

 

There is no way McKenzie doesnt make this roster.....he simply does too many things and is versitile

[GoBills808]

They ain't cutting McKittrick

[John from Riverside]

5 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

If Duke makes one more big catch I could see it going:

 

Brown 

Beasley

Zay

Foster

Roberts 
Williams

I just don't see what McCloud and McKenzie offer that you can't find anywhere.

 

 

McCloud no

McKenzie has been flashing last year and all this pre season both on offense AND special teams...you have to have players that actually make plays

Edited August 19, 2019 by John from Riverside

[ColoradoBills]

18 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

 

I could easily see the Bills keeping seven receivers on the initial 53 man roster this season. It has become the deepest unit on the team.

 

Teams usually only want to dress 5.  I could see the possibility of 7 if Roberts didn't look usable but so far he seems OK as a WR.

Then again what McD and Beane are thinking is a mystery to me right now.

[tomur67]

If the game is on the line,  with seconds to go, do you want Allen passing to Zay Jones?  If you're OK with  it, I guess he should be on the roster.

[SJDK]

Here is what I’d like at receiver:

Brown

Beasley

Roberts

Foster

The Duke

McCloud or McKenzie (shifting toward McKenzie he seems more durable/ I remember Ray Ray being injured more than McKenzie)

 

bye bye Zay, it sounds like he worked out a lot in the off season but I just have seen way more negatives in his play than the others have shown.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

 

I think you overestimate the value of the WR's.

 

Think about it for a minute: how many sure-fire WR's do we have on our roster?

 

You want to trade them away?

Maybe I do overestimate them. But suppose you're a Gm and your team is only four deep at receiver.  Suppose you liked Zay in the draft.  Suppose Zay could be your number 2 or your slot guy.   There are people on this board who were saying a month ago that Zay was a lock as the number 2, so why wouldn't some GM want him as a number 2 or 3?  

 

If you're that gm, would you give a fifth or 6th for him?  I don't thin that's far-fetched.  

 

It looks like the Bills have a lot of receiver talent. Why not trade one?  Why not trade Yeldon?  Some team that is weak at rb might want him.  

 

If you're a gm you can wait for cuts, but then you have to compete with other teams.  

 

We will see, but you know Beane likes to deal.  I'm expecting the Bills to trade someone. 

 

 

[NoSaint]

3 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

How many teams trade for another teams fifth best receiver.  Real question. Not just trying to argue.  It seems more theoretical than real. 

Most teams 5/6 through about 8 are pretty interchangeable. That’s like 100 dudes to fill 50 spots and 50 available for free mid season with limited drop off. 

 

It makes for one of the easiest august roster battles for fans to get into annually but also often one of the most meaningless as if you cut a guy that gets signed there tend to be plenty of interchangeable pieces 

[Lurker]

18 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

  Suppose Zay could be your number 2 or your slot guy.   

 

Whoa.   How many NFL teams are that bad????

[Arkady Renko]

It seems like us as fans often get the WR competition wrong.  We focus on preseason performance, but I feel like preseason stats are not a good predictor.  Last year, didn't we think that Brandon Reilly was a shoo-in based on his preseason performance?  They did not even want him on the practice squad.  How many predicted Robert Foster would make it when he rarely made the stat sheet in any pre-season game and was repeatedly dropping passes in training camp?  Certainly the coaches were right to see something in him based on his performance to end the season.    

Edited August 19, 2019 by Arkady Renko

[Rocky Landing]

1 hour ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

 

I could easily see the Bills keeping seven receivers on the initial 53 man roster this season. It has become the deepest unit on the team.

Well, we have Brown who is potentially a legit #1, and we have Beasley who is definitely a legit slot receiver. Then we have Roberts who is a legit kick/punt returner. After that we are deep in average WRs. What good does that really do us to keep so many?

 

I keep reading about how deep we are at RB. But, in all honesty, Shady is a legitimate concern coming off his worst season, and showing less speed, and agility. Gore is 36, and Singletary is a rookie. I would be surprised if we didn't keep four RBs. And, we'll have a minimum of three TEs. Four would not surprise me there, either. Either way, seven WRs seems highly unlikely to me.

[purple haze]

2 hours ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

 

Nah, nobody is crazy for wanting a WR that catches the ball pretty regularly over one that doesn't.

 

Second bolded, yes I agree they need good WR's, but Zay just isn't one. As of yet anyways...

Who are you saying that catches the ball regularly?  Duke?  All of 3 passes you've seen him catch over two pre-season games?  And before that game

all the beat writers didn't even mention him in the competition for the last receiver spot?  Come on now.  Zay ain't great, but he's decent.  Folks on

here acting like the dude hasn't done anything.  Not true.

[Mark Vader]

I think 6 WR's will be kept on the team.

John Brown

Cole Beasley

Zay Jones

Robert Foster

Andre Roberts

Isaiah McKenzie or Duke Williams.

 

Brown & Beasley are locks, not to mention veterans. They will be valuable to the Bills.

I do not see the Bills giving up on Jones & Foster. Jones is frustrating with the drops, but I think McDermott has confidence in him. Foster is only in his second year, and he still has potential to grow.

Roberts is a returner, but the Bills have been using him as a receiver too. Unlike Brandon Tate, it looks as if he will be used more than just as an emergency receiver.

That leaves McKenzie & Williams. McKenzie has shown that he can be reliable. Williams is a big target, and that touchdown grab against the Panthers was a beauty.

[purple haze]

3 hours ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

 

My reason for wanting Duke isn't because of his height. It is that he is physical, goes up and gets the ball, and seems to have very good hands. 

 

Zay underwhelms in all those departments. 

You have seen Duke, in the NFL-against NFL competition,  make one catch like that.  That's the reason they should keep him over Zay?  Where was all the

reports of him doing that consistently in practice during camp?  I recall report saying he wasn't standing out at all.  

 

I'm not saying they can't do better than Zay.  I'm saying folks see Duke make one catch and all of a sudden he should be kept.  No.  Do better than Zay,

by drafting better or making a trade for a better WR.

[Patrick Duffy]

1 hour ago, purple haze said:

Who are you saying that catches the ball regularly?  Duke?  All of 3 passes you've seen him catch over two pre-season games?  And before that game

all the beat writers didn't even mention him in the competition for the last receiver spot?  Come on now.  Zay ain't great, but he's decent.  Folks on

here acting like the dude hasn't done anything.  Not true.

 

Yes, Duke has caught everything thrown to him for the most part, alllllll the way in those CFL days. In any event, yeah disagree, to me I think he will bring more to the table than Zay, hands down (no pun intended).

 

CFLor NFL, catching the ball is catching the ball and at least IMO he does it a lot better than Zay

Edited August 19, 2019 by Patrick_Duffy

[LABILLBACKER]

13 hours ago, mrags said:

He had a vet day off. He’s been more than fine with Allen all summer. 

If we keep Dimarco over Wade, Gore, McClpud, McKenzie, Williams, Yarborough, and a half a dozen others... I will vomit 

Keeping Dimarco who serves zero purpose on this team is just insanity. Cutting Wade or one of the te's over DiMarco is foolish. 

[GunnerBill]

In terms if backs and receivers to be honest my thinking hasn't really changed since the start of camp. 

 

Di Marco will make it, plus Shady, Gore and Singletary. 

 

Then the 6 receivers will be Brown, Beasley, Foster, Jones, McKenzie and Roberts. 

[Doc Brown]

6 hours ago, tomur67 said:

If the game is on the line,  with seconds to go, do you want Allen passing to Zay Jones?  If you're OK with  it, I guess he should be on the roster.

Only if he's open.  I'm fine with Jones. 

 

I still think the 6th spot is up in the air between McKenzie, Ray Ray, and the Duke.  Maybe have Barkley play the whole 2nd half in Detroit to give these WR's a chance to make their case.

[ganesh]

18 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Taking 6. And after week two this is what I am thinking

 

Brown

Jones

Foster

Beasley

Roberts 

 

so comes down to size or shiftiness 

Williams - Size

McCloud - Shiftiness 

 

Also could very well keep and Extra WR to start season depending on Kroft

 

Kroft - PUP

Knox

Sweeney

 

so do you cut Lee Smith for an extra WR spot? 

You are ignoring McKenzie who has had a fantastic camp and pre-season and he is the backup to Beasley not McCloud (at the moment).

3 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Keeping Dimarco who serves zero purpose on this team is just insanity. Cutting Wade or one of the te's over DiMarco is foolish. 

Ask the coaches..i think they will tell you differently.  Di Marco is not getting cut

[Teddy KGB]

8 hours ago, purple haze said:

Come on now.  Zay ain't great, but he's decent.  Folks on

here acting like the dude hasn't done anything.  Not true.

 

Decent ?    He drops balls that are routinely caught by 10 year olds in the neighborhood playing 5 on 5 football 

[Tenhigh]

19 hours ago, SCBills said:

Duke was coveted by a lot of teams before he came here.  I doubt he makes the PS, given he was dunking on people in the Panthers game.  

 

I think we have to keep him.  Even if it’s just a fade guy in the end zone, he has attributes our other WRs don’t have.  

 

Coveted by NFL teams? Do you have links? I don't think I remember reading that at all....

[formerlyofCtown]

20 hours ago, DJB said:

 

Personally I have McKenzie ahead of both Duke and Ray Ray. Of the 3 Ray appears 3rd in line for me after Duke and McKenzie.  

 

My guess is we keep 6 WR

 

Brown 

Beasley

Zay

Foster

Roberts 

McKenzie 

This is probably accurate.  We need a WR to fill in for Beasley if/when necessary.

10 hours ago, tomur67 said:

If the game is on the line,  with seconds to go, do you want Allen passing to Zay Jones?  If you're OK with  it, I guess he should be on the roster.

Yes actually I am.

15 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

Coveted by NFL teams? Do you have links? I don't think I remember reading that at all....

There were several teams interested in his services.

[Shaw66]

27 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

Coveted by NFL teams? Do you have links? I don't think I remember reading that at all....

At the time he signed with Buffalo there were reports that several teams wanted him. Why?  Because for the last couple of years he caughtt virtually every ball that came his way.  Like the touchdown the other night.  That's what he does.