Receiver competition with two games left

[CSBill]

5 hours ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

Am I crazy for wanting Duke on the team over Zay? Duke looks like he has way better hands for contested catches over the middle. 

 

 

I like Zay Jones, but based on what we've seen in two games, I would have to agree.

[DuckyBoys]

Tough to figure what they are thinking.  Given John Brown's past inability to stay healthy I would assume Foster sticks.  Nobody else has that type speed. 

My best guess:

Brown

Beasley

Roberts

Foster

Jones

Williams

 

[Shaw66]

34 minutes ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

 

I wasn't referring to you, actually.  I'm a big fan of your posts.  I should have quoted others.  My bad.  That being said, I think Foster is an absolute lock.  For an UDFA to have contributed as much as he did last year, and then to all of a sudden just throw him to the curb... doesn't make sense to me.

Well, we're on the outside, so we don't really know.  Maybe Foster is a lock so they don't need to see him.  But as I said above, this is about team building.  McBeane have to be thinking simultaneously about what makes the team better in September, in December and in 2020.  

 

If they have someone on board who isn't as valuable as Foster now, but likely will be as valuable as Foster in December, then the team may be better off trading Foster now for a pick in 2020.  And "as valuable as Foster" doesn't mean that he has the same characteristics as Foster - he could be valuable in different ways.  

 

The point is that right now the Bills seem to have 7 or 8 receiving assets with some current and some future value.  The question is how to manage those to have the most value from all of them over time.  That probably means trading someone.   Trading a receiver today may mean the Bills have a better backup safety next year without materially reducing the strength of the receiving corps. 

 

It's like the Eagles trading Bradford or the Chiefs tradio Alex Smith.  So even though Foster was a starter and looked liked like a comer doesn't mean he won't be dealt. 

[{::'KayCeeS::}]

11 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, we're on the outside, so we don't really know.  Maybe Foster is a lock so they don't need to see him.  But as I said above, this is about team building.  McBeane have to be thinking simultaneously about what makes the team better in September, in December and in 2020.  

 

If they have someone on board who isn't as valuable as Foster now, but likely will be as valuable as Foster in December, then the team may be better off trading Foster now for a pick in 2020.  And "as valuable as Foster" doesn't mean that he has the same characteristics as Foster - he could be valuable in different ways.  

 

The point is that right now the Bills seem to have 7 or 8 receiving assets with some current and some future value.  The question is how to manage those to have the most value from all of them over time.  That probably means trading someone.   Trading a receiver today may mean the Bills have a better backup safety next year without materially reducing the strength of the receiving corps. 

 

It's like the Eagles trading Bradford or the Chiefs tradio Alex Smith.  So even though Foster was a starter and looked liked like a comer doesn't mean he won't be dealt. 

 

A very well articulated point.  Still, Foster is a lock.  Because he doesn't have the value of Bradford or Alex Smith.

Edited August 18, 2019 by {::'KayCeeS::}

[PlayoffsPlease]

6 hours ago, HOUSE said:

With Tyree Jackson on the field it is impossible to judge any WR playing in the 2nd half,something needs to change here

They do have practices. 

[Shaw66]

7 minutes ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

 

A very well articulated point.  Still, Foster is a lock.  Because he doesn't have the value of Bradford or Alex Smith.

No he doesn't have the same value.  But there is some receivee on the Bills roster right now who probably will be on another team's roster week one.  The Bills can cut that guy or get a fifth, sixth or seventh for him.  Why not get the pick?   The question is who?  Foster, Jones and Williams are the most likely answers. 

[PlayoffsPlease]

Obvously gettting a future pick beats simply cutting a guy, but how often does a teams 8th best WR get traded for a pick? Don't other teams just wait for cuts? 

 

[Magox]

Barring any trades

 

Brown

Beasley

Zay Jones

Foster

Robert's

 

Are all locks

 

Foster's on the field performance last year cannot be ignored and if he were to be cut this would be the first move of Beanes that I have seen that I'd question.  I just dont think that will happen.

 

Zay was Allen's top target last year, is a process guy and has good rapport with Allen.  If he isnt traded he wont be cut.

 

I had Ray Ray ahead of Duke last week, not any more.  Duke is turning it up and my guess is he will get some time with the 1's over this week and lots with the 2's to see whether or not of he is beginning to blossom.  With that said McKenzie has shown he can produce when it counts and he has more special teams value than Duke.  So he definitely has the edge.  But Duke is a physical receiver who can block and high point it and that is something the Bills like.

 

 

[Shaw66]

24 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

Obvously gettting a future pick beats simply cutting a guy, but how often does a teams 8th best WR get traded for a pick? Don't other teams just wait for cuts? 

 

That's the point. You don't trade your 8th best receiver.  You trade your fifth best receiver fora pick because your 6th and Th best receivers are good enough now and have good potential.  You have to give up something to get something.  

 

As other people have said, how important, really, is your fifth best receiver?  If your starters are, say, Beasley, Brown and Jones, and Roberts is locked, how important is Foster?  Or if Foster is your starter, how important is Jones?  If you can get a pick for one of them, and if you like McKenzie and Williams, why not pick up the pick?

12 minutes ago, Magox said:

Barring any trades

 

Brown

Beasley

Zay Jones

Foster

Robert's

 

Are all locks

 

Foster's on the field performance last year cannot be ignored and if he were to be cut this would be the first move of Beanes that I have seen that I'd question.  I just dont think that will happen.

 

Zay was Allen's top target last year, is a process guy and has good rapport with Allen.  If he isnt traded he wont be cut.

 

I had Ray Ray ahead of Duke last week, not any more.  Duke is turning it up and my guess is he will get some time with the 1's over this week and lots with the 2's to see whether or not of he is beginning to blossom.  With that said McKenzie has shown he can produce when it counts and he has more special teams value than Duke.  So he definitely has the edge.  But Duke is a physical receiver who can block and high point it and that is something the Bills like.

 

 

What you have to look for is a trade, not a cut.  I agree Foster and Jones aren't likely to get cut.  I think its possible one of them gets traded. 

[PlayoffsPlease]

4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

That's the point. You don't trade your 8th best receiver.  You trade your fifth best receiver fora pick because your 6th and Th best receivers are good enough now and have good potential.  You have to give up something to get something.  

 

As other people have said, how important, really, is your fifth best receiver?  If your starters are, say, Beasley, Brown and Jones, and Roberts is locked, how important is Foster?  Or if Foster is your starter, how important is Jones?  If you can get a pick for one of them, and if you like McKenzie and Williams, why not pick up the pick?

What you have to look for is a trade, not a cut.  I agree Foster and Jones aren't likely to get cut.  I think its possible one of them gets traded. 

How many teams trade for another teams fifth best receiver.  Real question. Not just trying to argue.  It seems more theoretical than real. 

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, Rocky Landing said:

I think a lot of folks here consider it a given that there will be six WRs. I don't believe this is the case. Beane had mentioned on more than one occasion the possibility of only carrying five. I also think that we could carry four TEs, and four RBs, which would make a five WR scenario almost certain. And, at that point, I think the competition if far less settled. Brown, Beasley, Roberts, Jones, Foster would be the conventional wisdom, but I could certainly see Jones, or Foster losing out to some of the other guys fighting for a spot.

 

I remember him saying that but I still believe 6 is the number.  

I can also see where after cuts one of the bubble guys will be available for the PS.

[purple haze]

7 hours ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

Am I crazy for wanting Duke on the team over Zay? Duke looks like he has way better hands for contested catches over the middle. 

 

Yeah, you're crazy.  I understand folks feeling like Zay is underwhelming when considering his draft position, but he's a decent player who has made plays in games that count.  Duke has three catches in two pre-season games.  And where has he been the rest of camp?   Don't be a victim of regency bias.  I'd keep McKenzie over Duke.  McKenzie has made plays in games that count and he's made plays in the pre-season games and in camp consistently too.

 

Bills don't need a tall WR.  They need good WR's whatever size it comes in.

Edited August 18, 2019 by purple haze

[Mrbojanglezs]

22 minutes ago, purple haze said:

Yeah, you're crazy.  I understand folks feeling like Zay is underwhelming when considering his draft position, but he's a decent player who has made plays in games that count.  Duke has three catches in two pre-season games.  And where has he been the rest of camp?   Don't be a victim of regency bias.  I'd keep McKenzie over Duke.  McKenzie has made plays in games that count and he's made plays in the pre-season games and in camp consistently too.

 

Bills don't need a tall WR.  They need good WR's whatever size it comes in.

 

My reason for wanting Duke isn't because of his height. It is that he is physical, goes up and gets the ball, and seems to have very good hands. 

 

Zay underwhelms in all those departments. 

[{::'KayCeeS::}]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

No he doesn't have the same value.  But there is some receivee on the Bills roster right now who probably will be on another team's roster week one.  The Bills can cut that guy or get a fifth, sixth or seventh for him.  Why not get the pick?   The question is who?  Foster, Jones and Williams are the most likely answers. 

 

I think you overestimate the value of the WR's.

 

Think about it for a minute: how many sure-fire WR's do we have on our roster?

 

You want to trade them away?

[WideNine]

I think Brown and Beasley are pretty sure bets so I guess you could use the word "lock", after that I think coaches balance what they have seen in camp and scrimmages with an eye to role depth.

 

Brown - speed to stretch the defense you have Foster or Roberts who could fill in a pinch.

Beasley - quick slot receiver and for that role you have Mckenzie or Ray Ray

 

In scenarios above you have the real possibility of losing Foster over Roberts with his dual-role - Foster seems to find himself in the dog house often as well last year and this year and I am not sure what that is about, and we may never know but it is a factor.

 

Ray Ray made a push in camp, but I think McKenzie has shown more in real game scenarios.

 

It is that last role: The taller receiver with some strength who can beat the jam, catch and protect contested passes, and high-point the ball that is the area where it gets interesting with Zay, and Duke primarily having the right build. Out of the two I would not say that Zay has it locked down as Williams has shown plenty of compete and he has played in a league (albeit not the NFL), so it is safe to say he is not some wide-eyed rookie with just a bit a good camp film. They could keep both and Zay has some trade value if the inconsistencies keep cropping up.

 

I also like what I have seen from Nick Easley and Cam has flashed some in camp. Some hard decisions coming up around this crop of WRs and it is a good problem for the Bills to have.

 

As to the TE's I think Sweeney and Knox are locks, and probably Croom sticks as he is familiar with the offense then I am not sure. They still could put Kroft on the reserve PUP list as some insurance down the road and give that gimpy foot more time to heal correctly and he wont count against the roster. Then one more for the active roster. Anyone else would have to clear waivers if they want to stash him on the PS if eligible or they would have to cut him if he is an NFL vet.

 

[Patrick Duffy]

1 hour ago, purple haze said:

Yeah, you're crazy.  I understand folks feeling like Zay is underwhelming when considering his draft position, but he's a decent player who has made plays in games that count.  Duke has three catches in two pre-season games.  And where has he been the rest of camp?   Don't be a victim of regency bias.  I'd keep McKenzie over Duke.  McKenzie has made plays in games that count and he's made plays in the pre-season games and in camp consistently too.

 

Bills don't need a tall WR.  They need good WR's whatever size it comes in.

 

Nah, nobody is crazy for wanting a WR that catches the ball pretty regularly over one that doesn't.

 

Second bolded, yes I agree they need good WR's, but Zay just isn't one. As of yet anyways...

[Wayne Arnold]

3 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

I think a lot of folks here consider it a given that there will be six WRs. I don't believe this is the case. Beane had mentioned on more than one occasion the possibility of only carrying five. I also think that we could carry four TEs, and four RBs, which would make a five WR scenario almost certain. And, at that point, I think the competition if far less settled. Brown, Beasley, Roberts, Jones, Foster would be the conventional wisdom, but I could certainly see Jones, or Foster losing out to some of the other guys fighting for a spot.

 

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I remember him saying that but I still believe 6 is the number.  

I can also see where after cuts one of the bubble guys will be available for the PS.

 

I could easily see the Bills keeping seven receivers on the initial 53 man roster this season. It has become the deepest unit on the team.

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, DuckyBoys said:

Tough to figure what they are thinking.  Given John Brown's past inability to stay healthy I would assume Foster sticks.  Nobody else has that type speed. 

My best guess:

Brown

Beasley

Roberts

Foster

Jones

Williams

 

There is no way McKenzie doesnt make this roster.....he simply does too many things and is versitile

[GoBills808]

They ain't cutting McKittrick

[John from Riverside]

5 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

If Duke makes one more big catch I could see it going:

 

Brown 

Beasley

Zay

Foster

Roberts 
Williams

I just don't see what McCloud and McKenzie offer that you can't find anywhere.

 

 

McCloud no

McKenzie has been flashing last year and all this pre season both on offense AND special teams...you have to have players that actually make plays

Edited August 19, 2019 by John from Riverside