Ruben Brown on Mitch Morse: “It Might Be It For Him” & Carwell Gardner is “Severely Suffering”

[Phil The Thrill]

Ruben Brown was the guest on the Jerry Sullivan Show this morning.  Wow he is a smart and articulate player.  A very interesting interview, for sure.

 

Surprisingly, Ruben said that after 4 concussions Mitch Morse it’s a scary situation and “the bad news is, this might be it for him.”

 

He said that after the 4th concussion the NFL nothing to play around with and likened it to boxing where the more times you get knocked out, the easier it is for it to reoccur.  He said “after you’ve been knocked out for the 3rd or 4th time, you might want to consider doing something else.

 

He also said that Mitch probably had more than the 4 concussions that were documented and surprisingly in Ruben’s day they were not concerned with concussions.  He said to his knowledge he has zero concussion, which probably means he’s had thousands. 

 

When discussing physical ailments from

an NFL career Ruben brings up Carwell Gardner and says he is “severely suffering” and you can tell that Carwel has suffered some sort of trauma (might not just be concussions) from his physical, high impact blocking style.  He encouraged fans to reach out to him with well wishes.

 

It’s a good 20 minute interview and you can hear it below:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-jerry-sullivan-show/id1442870374#episodeGuid=6349533

Edited August 16, 2019 by Phil The Thrill

[GunnerBill]

The reality is that it might be. It feels like he is going to have one more go but if following this comeback he gets one more concussion this year I think he will walk away from the game. I hope it doesn't happen and sad for him and Buffalo if it does but at some point you have to put your long term health first.

[Phil The Thrill]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

The reality is that it might be. It feels like he is going to have one more go but if following this comeback he gets one more concussion this year I think he will walk away from the game. I hope it doesn't happen and sad for him and Buffalo if it does but at some point you have to put your long term health first.

 

It has to be a major disappointment for the Bills if that happens. I’m thinking that they’d still be on the hook for the huge guaranteed money for his contract

[RoyBatty is alive]

Ruben was always a smart and solid player.  On Mitch that is just the reality.

  

Carwell Gardner was the one that had to be restrained from going into the Dolphins locker room to go after Bryan Cox, a Bills fan favorite.

[BillsVet]

They had a major need at center, knew about Morse's concussion history, and still went forward with the contract.  (Cue someone to say Beane didn't know he'd get another concussion). 

 

People here talk about Beane's management of the cap and how he maneuvered the team into a solid position after Whaley.  Yet, he's the guy who signed players like Star to a bloated contract, gave a thrice concussed Morse a big contract, and traded for Benjamin who flamed out fast.  He may not be as bad as Dugout Doug 2013-2016, but he's showing signs his command of personnel and dollars isn't as great as advertised.

 

For McBeane's sake, they'd better be a 10 or more win team this year.  Because not doing so is going to shine a bigger spotlight onto the whiffs in free agency.

 

 

[unbillievable]

If Morse decides he's done, I hope he retires and not just stays on the injured list taking up a roster spot/cap money.

The worst thing to happen to the team would be another InCognito situation.

 

I know players would rather get cut than retire to keep the guaranteed cash, Morse would be a complete %$#@ to do it now, when he's never played for the Bills.

[BuffaloBill]

Carwell Gardner is a tough story. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

4 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

 

It has to be a major disappointment for the Bills if that happens. I’m thinking that they’d still be on the hook for the huge guaranteed money for his contract

 

From a cap perspective yes - but from a cash perspective i think they have insurance for things like this.  Someone here probably knows more than I do.

 

20.4 was guaranteed.  He got about 11 of it this year.  If he were on IR this year, and retired next year we would be on the hook for the remainder of the signing bonus, and 2 mil of his 2020 salary that was guaranteed at signing.  Assuming they do it like they did with wood, they'll figure out if they want to eat it in 2020 or spread it through 2021.  At that size (9 million) we'd probably spread it over 2 years.  

[unbillievable]

1 minute ago, BillsVet said:

They had a major need at center, knew about Morse's concussion history, and still went forward with the contract.  (Cue someone to say Beane didn't know he'd get another concussion). 

 

People here talk about Beane's management of the cap and how he maneuvered the team into a solid position after Whaley.  Yet, he's the guy who signed players like Star to a bloated contract, gave a thrice concussed Morse a big contract, and traded for Benjamin who flamed out fast.  He may not be as bad as Dugout Doug 2013-2016, but he's showing signs his command of personnel and dollars isn't as great as advertised.

 

For McBeane's sake, they'd better be a 10 or more win team this year.  Because not doing so is going to shine a bigger spotlight onto the whiffs in free agency.

 

 

 

Doug Whaley/Nix built a REALLY good roster... with the exception of a quarterback. They don't deserve the hate they get here for that... maybe for Rex, but many people loved that move then too.

It's been said that every GM/Couch will be judged by their choice of quarterback, no matter how well he does everywhere else. I guess it's true.

 

 

[PromoTheRobot]

1 minute ago, dneveu said:

 

From a cap perspective yes - but from a cash perspective i think they have insurance for things like this.  Someone here probably knows more than I do.

 

20.4 was guaranteed.  He got about 11 of it this year.  If he were on IR this year, and retired next year we would be on the hook for the remainder of the signing bonus, and 2 mil of his 2020 salary that was guaranteed at signing.  Assuming they do it like they did with wood, they'll figure out if they want to eat it in 2020 or spread it through 2021.  At that size (9 million) we'd probably spread it over 2 years.  

 

What happens if the Bills cut Morse before the season begins? What's the cap hit then?

[Phil The Thrill]

2 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said:

Carwell Gardner is a tough story. 

 

Have you heard about Carwell?  This is the first I’ve heard he is having issues

[Canadian Bills Fan]

Am I horrible that the first thing I thought after reading this is how our cap space is affected if Morse retires?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, unbillievable said:

 

Doug Whaley/Nix built a REALLY good roster... with the exception of a quarterback. They don't deserve the hate they get here for that... maybe for Rex, but many people loved that move then too.

It's been said that every GM/Couch will be judged by their choice of quarterback, no matter how well he does everywhere else. I guess it's true.

 

 

 

So many vocal whaley guys on here.

 

His roster had a cap of 9 wins, and NO flexibility financially. It was a TERRIBLY built team.

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

What happens if the Bills cut Morse before the season begins? What's the cap hit then?

 

20.4 million. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/mitch-morse-16773/

 

2 minutes ago, unbillievable said:

 

Doug Whaley/Nix built a REALLY good roster... with the exception of a quarterback. They don't deserve the hate they get here for that... maybe for Rex, but many people loved that move then too.

It's been said that every GM/Couch will be judged by their choice of quarterback, no matter how well he does everywhere else. I guess it's true.

 

 

 

They whiffed on QB quite hard.  Also traded 2 firsts for a wide receiver.  Traded a 4th for bryce brown.  The entire 2016 draft.  Not to mention whaley didn't get along with legit any head coach we brought in.  

Edited August 16, 2019 by dneveu

[unbillievable]

Just now, Joe in Winslow said:

 

So many vocal whaley guys on here.

 

His roster had a cap of 9 wins, and NO flexibility financially. It was a TERRIBLY built team.

 

ON paper, Whaley built a really good team... which is what GM's are supposed to do. The couch is supposed to put it together.. the hire of which can be blamed on All parties involved.

The team wasn't in cap hell, they just spent to it.

 

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

I actually thought he would of already hung them up. the risk is so high. ultimately though it is his decision and hope he doesn't suffer another.

 

off the track just some here, but are these new helmet designs supposed to help against concussions?

[brianthomas]

Hindsight is 20/20 but I'm sure we all kinda wish we would've gone after Paradis instead, given what has happened with Morse.

Sure you could say: 'we had no way of knowing this would happen". But at the same time, Morse plays a position that is 1 of the more violent places to play. If someone has a history of concussions there, then theres a relatively decent sized risk that he could get more. The question had to be asked before we signed him: 'what if he gets another one?' I'd think Beane & company would've considered that. Did they just determine we'll deal with it IF it happens?

Regardless its bad for Morse, bad for us & our Bills. Hopefully he pulls thru but if he doesnt, I hope this is a learning experience for Beane & he won't go after players with this particular injury history in the future, at such a crucial position on the most physical part of the field.

[unbillievable]

5 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

20.4 million. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/mitch-morse-16773/

 

 

They whiffed on QB quite hard.  Also traded 2 firsts for a wide receiver.  Traded a 4th for bryce brown.  The entire 2016 draft.  Not to mention whaley didn't get along with legit any head coach we brought in.  

 

The quarterback whiff (at a time when there seemed to be a lack of good ones coming out) is what everyone focuses on under Whaley.

The trades for Watkins, brown, etc added to a loaded roster. There wasn't a need to add much more; especially late round picks.

 

Whaley's team had a lot of talent, everywhere. But his one mistake was not finding a quarterback... and that is all that mattered.

 

[MJS]

Bunch of useless speculation. Completely silly to be guessing about Morse and his situation. He could go on and play another 10 years, or he could be done tomorrow. Nobody knows anything.

[That's No Moon]

Wonder what helmet he's using these days.  I saw a presentation by Vicis. Those are pretty impressive in terms of energy dissipation.  If my kid played football he'd wear one of those. 

[brianthomas]

Just now, MJS said:

Bunch of useless speculation. Completely silly to be guessing about Morse and his situation. He could go on and play another 10 years, or he could be done tomorrow. Nobody knows anything.

I hear ya but can't that be said about everything said here? About Allen becoming a good QB? About how our team will do this year? Everything that takes place on a message board, other than sharing info from team sources or the media is speculation. None of us know anything about anything. If we'll win tonight vs Carolina, if we'll make the playoffs. But yet we still talk about it

[billsfan1959]

29 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

The reality is that it might be. It feels like he is going to have one more go but if following this comeback he gets one more concussion this year I think he will walk away from the game. I hope it doesn't happen and sad for him and Buffalo if it does but at some point you have to put your long term health first.

I wouldn't blame him if he walked away now and certainly if he sustained another concussion. Being around and healthy, long term, for your family and those that love you is worth more than your career. I understand that more and more the older I get.

[unbillievable]

2 minutes ago, MJS said:

Bunch of useless speculation. Completely silly to be guessing about Morse and his situation. He could go on and play another 10 years, or he could be done tomorrow. Nobody knows anything.

 

We can talk about silly stuff or be productive at work...

...

[ddaryl]

25 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

 

It has to be a major disappointment for the Bills if that happens. I’m thinking that they’d still be on the hook for the huge guaranteed money for his contract

 

 

Here is some info if Morse has to retire.

 

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/pittsburgh-steelers-nfl-features-news-blog-long-form/2016/3/5/11158958/nfl-101-how-cuts-retirements-and-trades-affect-the-salary-cap

 

 

Quote

 

Retirements

Teams can end a contract at any time, but so can players. In a player's case, though, the only way they can do this is by retiring. In the end, though, the math looks pretty much the same as if the player had been cut -- and the June 1 rule applies here, too.

For instance, if our player from the example above had retired instead of being cut, his money would account the same way as if he had been cut by the team. If he files his retirement paperwork on or after June 1, the money counts as if he was cut on or after June 1.

Just like anything else in the NFL, though, there is a "but" for this rule, too: if the player retires with time remaining on his contract, then chooses to come back into the league later, he is not a free agent. Contracts apply, in most cases, to accrued seasons, not calendar years. If the player doesn't play, he doesn't accrue a season. Therefore, his return to the field would put him back under the control of the same team, unless that team chooses to cut him. This rule is part of the reason why Barry Sanders chose to retire: the Lions refused to cut him, and he decided he'd rather stop playing altogether than play another season for Detroit. Conversely, Brett Favre retired, and then the team chose to cut him while he was retired. He was then able to return to the league later as a free agent.

Okay, there are actually two "buts" for retirements. When a player retires, the team has the option to pursue the return of a portion of the signing bonus equal to the unplayed portions of the contract, and that money is no longer counted against the salary cap. This is typically done through an arbitrator. This is known as the "Barry Sanders Rule" because this is exactly how the situation played out in his case, as he was required to pay back a portion of his bonus. The difference between now and then is there was no precedent when Sanders played; now, it's explicitly written into the CBA to allow for this arbitration

 

 

[Beast]

Ruben Brown likes to hear himself talk without knowing what the ***** he is saying.

[Punching Bag]

2 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

Wonder what helmet he's using these days.  I saw a presentation by Vicis. Those are pretty impressive in terms of energy dissipation.  If my kid played football he'd wear one of those. 

 

Some of the new helmets have not been green light by NFL/NFLPA and part of that is marketing. 

 

Here is another helmet designed by the designer of ProCap which Mark Kelso wore:

https://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bs-bz-football-helmet-concussions-20180131-story.html

 

Vicis is mentioned in article.

[MJS]

3 minutes ago, brianthomas said:

I hear ya but can't that be said about everything said here? About Allen becoming a good QB? About how our team will do this year? Everything that takes place on a message board, other than sharing info from team sources or the media is speculation. None of us know anything about anything. If we'll win tonight vs Carolina, if we'll make the playoffs. But yet we still talk about it

Sure, but those other things are projections based on at least a little evidence. We have no information about Morse because he is in concussion protocol. All we know is that he appears to have progressed into stage 4, which is a positive sign. And yet people are already blaming Beane for signing him and suggesting that Morse will never play again? Or if he gets another concussion he will have to retire? That's bull. Nobody knows, and in this instance it is useless to speculate about.

[DCofNC]

Yeah, DW wasnt great.  Beane has made some bad ones too, Morse was a really terrible signing it appears. He takes way too many risks on injured players and gives out a lot of guaranteed money to pretty mediocre players.  Last year, McCarron, Murphy, Star, Ivory, Vonte Davis... pretty awful.  Traded McCarron before the year starts, also a horrible move. Murphy was useless, Star got double what he's worth, Ivory they way over paid with no competition and Davis..c'mon man!

 

I hope Morse makes a smart choice, he shouldn't risk his long term health for the game, but ultimately, its his call.

[That's No Moon]

1 minute ago, Limeaid said:

 

Some of the new helmets have not been green light by NFL/NFLPA and part of that is marketing. 

 

Here is another helmet designed by the designer of ProCap which Mark Kelso wore:

https://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bs-bz-football-helmet-concussions-20180131-story.html

The Vicis has. There are NFL guys that wear it including Russell Wilson.

 

I realize it's marketing also but when you drop one helmet on a tile floor and it pings and bounces up like a golf ball and the other thuds and barely bounces at all it leaves a pretty big impression

 

Independent testing puts that helmet as #2 available FWIW.

https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/varsity-football-helmet-ratings.html

 

 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

I wonder if he/doctors said 1 more and his career is done, a move to OG would happen, if that could make any difference.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

7 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Yeah, DW wasnt great.  Beane has made some bad ones too, Morse was a really terrible signing it appears. He takes way too many risks on injured players and gives out a lot of guaranteed money to pretty mediocre players.  Last year, McCarron, Murphy, Star, Ivory, Vonte Davis... pretty awful.  Traded McCarron before the year starts, also a horrible move. Murphy was useless, Star got double what he's worth, Ivory they way over paid with no competition and Davis..c'mon man!

 

I hope Morse makes a smart choice, he shouldn't risk his long term health for the game, but ultimately, its his call.

 

Absurd. Name one cap=crippling contract like Dareus. I'll wait.

 

[TigerJ]

25 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

 

 

off the track just some here, but are these new helmet designs supposed to help against concussions?

I'm sure that's the intent, and just as sure they only provide very limited protection versus the older helmet designs.

[oldmanfan]

Everyone should go read or listen to the interview WGR did with Morse.  He talks about how he went to a clinic in Michigan during the off season for some extensive testing and he passed everything.  So given that it’s certainly worth signing him.  

 

Everyone should read the comments by McD about Lotuleili and how he does what McD needs for his D.

 

Beane is not immune to criticism.  He messed up not bringing in Anderson in earlier last year.  And he admitted such.  Trading picks for Benjamin and Coleman were’t Good moves.  But on the whole he’s doing pretty well.

[Say When...]

now i know this is a sensitive topic and it should be taken seriously but concussion protocol can be initiated regardless of it truly being a concussion or not, there's no irrefutable proof here and it's done as a safety measure and i'm sure quite conservative in nature.  I think this is all talk and speculation and not lending to the actual reality of whats going on.

 

i sit here and read this and can't help but think "What about Keuchly?"  that guy has his own personal Quasimodo; by all accounts he should be drooling down the front of himself by now and yet he keeps trotting himself out there; and i'm not sure his position isn't just as dangerous.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Say When...

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

3 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Absurd. Name one cap=crippling contract like Dareus. I'll wait.

 

 

I genuinely do not understand why people get so upset about small to medium contracts for players that may or may not work out.  He cleared the room, there is nothing wrong with him using it. Its not like any of these contracts are prohibitive in ANY sense. 

19 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

Here is some info if Morse has to retire.

 

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/pittsburgh-steelers-nfl-features-news-blog-long-form/2016/3/5/11158958/nfl-101-how-cuts-retirements-and-trades-affect-the-salary-cap

 

 

 

 

It is crazy to me that if a guy retires the team still has to eat the cap hit. I genuinely do not understand the justification for that. 

[Just Joshin']

Reuben Brown MD?  Does he play one on TV?  Stay at a Holiday Inn?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

I genuinely do not understand why people get so upset about small to medium contracts for players that may or may not work out.  He cleared the room, there is nothing wrong with him using it. Its not like any of these contracts are prohibitive in ANY sense. 

 

Exactly, say the worst case scenario happens and morse hangs it up.

 

What's the dead cap next year? 2 million? And even IF they had to eat 20 this year, they'd still have a boatload of cap left for replacements.

Despite what the upthread poster claims, Doug Whaley was HORRIBLE at cap managment.

 

[DrDawkinstein]

46 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

They had a major need at center, knew about Morse's concussion history, and still went forward with the contract.  (Cue someone to say Beane didn't know he'd get another concussion). 

 

People here talk about Beane's management of the cap and how he maneuvered the team into a solid position after Whaley.  Yet, he's the guy who signed players like Star to a bloated contract, gave a thrice concussed Morse a big contract, and traded for Benjamin who flamed out fast.  He may not be as bad as Dugout Doug 2013-2016, but he's showing signs his command of personnel and dollars isn't as great as advertised.

 

For McBeane's sake, they'd better be a 10 or more win team this year.  Because not doing so is going to shine a bigger spotlight onto the whiffs in free agency.

 

 

 

 

Good to see you never change regardless of who is in the FO or on the field.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

Just now, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Exactly, say the worst case scenario happens and morse hangs it up.

 

What's the dead cap next year? 2 million? And even IF they had to eat 20 this year, they'd still have a boatload of cap left for replacements.

Despite what the upthread poster claims, Doug Whaley was HORRIBLE at cap managment.

 

 

Yeah, it really isn't the end of the world if he retires.  Part of me is hoping that he doesn't feel obligated by the big contract to put himself in real harm. Im speculating obviously. But, still, if there is a serious risk, he should stop now. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

48 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

They had a major need at center, knew about Morse's concussion history, and still went forward with the contract.  (Cue someone to say Beane didn't know he'd get another concussion). 

 

People here talk about Beane's management of the cap and how he maneuvered the team into a solid position after Whaley.  Yet, he's the guy who signed players like Star to a bloated contract, gave a thrice concussed Morse a big contract, and traded for Benjamin who flamed out fast.  He may not be as bad as Dugout Doug 2013-2016, but he's showing signs his command of personnel and dollars isn't as great as advertised.

 

For McBeane's sake, they'd better be a 10 or more win team this year.  Because not doing so is going to shine a bigger spotlight onto the whiffs in free agency.

 

 

 

Who's the bigger fool? The fool himself or the fool who responds to the fool? I'll take a stab at this ridiculousness.

 

Find me one contract with as bad a cap crippling effect on the roster today as Dareus' bloated, no-out whaley special contract.

 

Just one will do. Go ahead.