Priority: Develop Allen or Win Ugly?

[danc]

6 hours ago, frostbitmic said:

On a few occasions yesterday I saw Allen calling out a blitzer and blocking assignments, possibly even calling an audible because there was something he was seeing and didn't like. I don't think he did that in his first couple of games and to me that's a sign of development.

I saw that also.  He can learn to call out blitzs, blocking, and read defenses without always having to throw 30-40 passes.  There's lots of ways to learn and develop.

[LSHMEAB]

Can't believe I haven't seen a Herm Edwards meme yet.

 

Sean McDermott may only get one shot as a head coach. He's not going to sacrifice a damn thing for the sake of one player.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

8 hours ago, Bangarang said:

The priority should be to develop Allen. Winning ugly will likely come with it. The problem is that how can you develop a QB when you give him very little to work with?

This ^.  

 

Keep the mistakes to a minimum 

[Alphadawg7]

8 hours ago, DuckyBoys said:

this is why I said yesterdays game was unsatisfying and got crushed for it  #1 priority to me for this year is developing Allen  Not going to happen if they try and hide him with this type of game plan week in week out.

 

Sorry, but this is ridiculous statement.  

 

This board doesnt know one lick about developing a QB in the NFL...not 1% of what is known to develop an NFL QB.  Now all these web GM's are upset about winning and trying to put a game plan around a kid playing on an offense lacking real talent?  What total nonsense.  

 

PS:  THE ONLY TD ANY TEAM SCORED YESTERDAY WAS BY ALLEN.  

 

PPS:  WINNING INSTILLS CONFIDENCE.

 

PPSS:  YOU ONLY PLAY NFL GAMES TO WIN.  PERIOD.  If you lose, then you lose...but you dont look an NFL locker room in the face where guys are fighting to keep jobs, fighting for future contracts, risking their health, etc that you aren't trying to win, youre only trying to develop the kid.  That locker room would quit on that coach before he finished saying that nonsense.  

Edited October 8, 2018 by Alphadawg7

[Fixxxer]

8 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Is this a serious question? 

 

according to the media narrative after yesterday's game, Allen's progression has taken a back seat because the gameplan against the Titans was to feature McCoy and Ivory.

 

At least that's what I got from several journalists, maybe I'm wrong. 

 

 

[longtimebillsfan]

I don't see these two alternatives as mutually exclusive.   I believe winning ugly is the result of developing Allen.  We emphasize the ground game and supplement with high percentage and easy read passes with the occasional throw down field.  We rely on the defense to keep the score close.   That is how we develop Allen and at the same time win ugly. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by longtimebillsfan

[Mat68]

Play Allen.  Not matter how ugly it looks keep pushing through.  The weapons around him are non existent.  Run the ball easy reads.  Times will come up when Allen will need to let it rip.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

..probably yet another AFL gaffe, but I'll try anyway.....beginning to think Daboll has a much larger learning curve as OC, especially with a 1st round rook QB than originally thought...and the "he sucks" yipsters with their in depth (COUGH) analysis need not bother.....his game plans are woefully inconsistent as were Dennison's.......when was Pettine ever known as a stalwart DC against the run?......certainly not in Buffalo, yet we test him with Shady's 7 carries......still injured?...probably.......what the hell is roster depth for then?.....so now Shady gets 25 carries versus a stout Titans defense and we squeeze out the "W".....so do we have to cut him slack to "learn on the fly"?......yup I'm an old school POS, but I'm not in favor of "on the job coaching training" versus winning football games.........

[Bing Bong]

I don't see a difference

[vincec]

12 hours ago, DuckyBoys said:

this is why I said yesterdays game was unsatisfying and got crushed for it  #1 priority to me for this year is developing Allen  Not going to happen if they try and hide him with this type of game plan week in week out.

He's not going to develop if he goes out there and gets crushed. He will develop bad habits, get his confidence shattered and/or get injured. They are only going to give him responsibilities at the rate that he can handle them. Based on what we've seen so far it appears that is limited so he's going to be "hidden" for a while as he slowly learns.

Edited October 9, 2018 by vincec

[Bing Bong]

Big Ben and Brady won ugly. I want him to know what winning feels like and have an undying thirst for that.. I'd call that development

[Talley56]

I find it hard to believe we would only win 3 or 4 games if Allen develops.  We have a lot of home games in the 2nd half of the season against some very beatable teams.  If we can’t beat the Dolphins, Jets, Lions then has Allen really gotten better?

[Buffalo Barbarian]

18 hours ago, DuckyBoys said:

this is why I said yesterdays game was unsatisfying and got crushed for it  #1 priority to me for this year is developing Allen  Not going to happen if they try and hide him with this type of game plan week in week out.

 

Mike Schopp everyone ? ? ?

[MJS]

This is not a thing. Every coach and every player is out there trying to win the game... on every team.

 

Allen will develop by playing a lot and studying film.

 

This either or scenario makes no sense at all.

[FeelingOnYouboty]

Allen playing well means much more to the stability of this Franchise than if he doesn't. We need to start winning because of how great our QB position is instead of scraping away wins in spite of our QB.

Edited October 9, 2018 by FeelingOnYouboty

[ROCBillsBeliever]

22 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

I agree but I really think they thought the way peterman looked in preseason and it being his 2nd year that he was gonna give them a good season...why else get ready rid of McCarron. Who I believe would have preformed better then both our current QBs while also giving Allen a little of a Vet presence to learn from. Getting rid of McCarron was a huge mistake but it goes back to this coaching staff conceding the fact of winning games this year they knew the roster they were taking into the season there is no way they expected to be competitive so I think they are just trying to teach this year and see if there are any young players worth keeping. Because honestly some of the moves this FO has made have been mind boggling. I understand they were told to fix the cap and all that but some things they’ve done to do that are ridiculous because there were pieces they should have kept if they wanted to win they clearly don’t care about winning this year 

 

I do recall a Beane interview, where his comment on McCarron was, "He's not the guy we thought he was." Beane left it at that, leaving us to speculate on what he was inferring. Maybe he, and the staff, believed McCarron would not be a good mentor, after having spent time with him. I think back to the McCarron quote after the final preseason game, where he said (paraphrase), That was the most exciting win I've ever had! An odd thing to say about a 4th preseason game against scrubs...

 

Just food for thought. 

[SoCal Deek]

7 minutes ago, ROCBillsBeliever said:

 

I do recall a Beane interview, where his comment on McCarron was, "He's not the guy we thought he was." Beane left it at that, leaving us to speculate on what he was inferring. Maybe he, and the staff, believed McCarron would not be a good mentor, after having spent time with him. I think back to the McCarron quote after the final preseason game, where he said (paraphrase), That was the most exciting win I've ever had! An odd thing to say about a 4th preseason game against scrubs...

 

Just food for thought. 

And so instead we got Peterman? Sheeesh, McCarron must have been an axe murderer!

[zow2]

4 hours ago, MJS said:

This is not a thing. Every coach and every player is out there trying to win the game... on every team.

 

Allen will develop by playing a lot and studying film.

 

This either or scenario makes no sense at all.

 

This.

 

every team and coaching staff in the NFL is about winning.  If it means  10-9 victories every week so be it.  They need more throws to Ray Ray like they did late.  Rodgers did about 7 of those passes against Buffalo.  Allen needs more three step drop and bam, just release it. Maybe it’s only a 5 yd gain but take it.  He’s not good yet at standing back there for 4 seconds and scanning the field.  The receivers rarely get separation and he’s not going to throw into a tiny window yet. Take a predetermined shot downfield when the defense alignment looks vulnerable 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

16 hours ago, ctk232 said:

I like the one step at a time approach, but if Allen is as raw as we all suspect and was projected to be, we have to be mindful of what he is developing a sense for, and what he feels is the norm in the NFL based on his experience. We also want him to experience and develop skills for an offense that we want to see down the line, which I believe would be pass heavy and variable routes. If we limit him this season to short/mid throws in a run heavy offense, how ready will he even be by next year? 

 

He still needs those games where he needs to win with his arm - whether or not we do shouldn't be in the question as long as he is developing the right skills to succeed in future years. Not that I'm in support of tanking, but priority has to be given to proper development this year regardless of the W-L record if we ever hope to have double digit wins again.

 

IMO, the biggest gap in Allen's game coming in was those short to intermediate throws, and being able to throw accurately on the roll out.  Every successful NFL QB has to be able to take the gimmee throws, the check-downs and make the D pay.  Brady has made a career out of 3-5 yd passes his WR and TE turn into 6-10.

 

He seems to be getting better - but it's still a gap.  On 2 of his 4 throw-aways, just on the commercial film he had what appeared to be a viable checkdown and ditto on 2 of his 6 incompletions.  If he makes half of them, and mebbe has a WR that doesn't butter-finger the ball up in the air for an INT, now he's at 68% completions and he's more of a viable QB.

I would argue if he masters those throws this year, that's an even more necessary step than the vertical passing game.

 

He's not going to be "ready next year" by throwing incompletions downfield to WR who don't get open or don't run the routes he expects and taking the team 3 and out.

[Trogdor]

22 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

The ‘04 Steelers limited Roethlisberger to around 20 attempts per game, coupled with a persistent ground game and solid defense. That Pittsburgh squad was far more talented than the current Bills, and no one is predicting that the Bills will finish anywhere near the AFC title game. The concept can work and even make sense. Allen can be developed without throwing 35 passes a contest. It will take creative and judicious play calling from Daboll, and the Titans gameplan can / should be expanded on. 

You're also leaving out the total shift in the NFL since then. It was still a running league, but now with the new rules it's a bad game under 200yds throwing. We can't compare two eras of football, even if it seems like it wasn't that long ago.

30 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

IMO, the biggest gap in Allen's game coming in was those short to intermediate throws, and being able to throw accurately on the roll out.  Every successful NFL QB has to be able to take the gimmee throws, the check-downs and make the D pay.  Brady has made a career out of 3-5 yd passes his WR and TE turn into 6-10.

 

He seems to be getting better - but it's still a gap.  On 2 of his 4 throw-aways, just on the commercial film he had what appeared to be a viable checkdown and ditto on 2 of his 6 incompletions.  If he makes half of them, and mebbe has a WR that doesn't butter-finger the ball up in the air for an INT, now he's at 68% completions and he's more of a viable QB.

I would argue if he masters those throws this year, that's an even more necessary step than the vertical passing game.

 

He's not going to be "ready next year" by throwing incompletions downfield to WR who don't get open or don't run the routes he expects and taking the team 3 and out.

Speaking of, who thought our cannon armed QB would be so terrible at long throws? He isn't even close on the majority of them. 

21 hours ago, jkeerie said:

That was Allen's life at Wyoming.  He had no supporting cast and had to win ball games any way HE could.  Part of his development is to unlearn that.  Keep the drive.  Keep the strong will to win.  Keep the heart.  Lose that it's all on you. 

 

Joe B is the one who has pushed this question and narrative.  He posted it in his column and talked about it in his newscast last night.  You can see how Josh is learning and developing game to game.  It's one lesson at a time (get the ball out quicker, throw it away if there's nothing there, etc)...but it is development.

That was his last year, but his junior year team was very talented. 5 NFL players from a team in that conference is basically stacked. His receivers also had one of the lowest drop rates in all of DIV I. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

You're also leaving out the total shift in the NFL since then. It was still a running league, but now with the new rules it's a bad game under 200yds throwing. We can't compare two eras of football, even if it seems like it wasn't that long ago.

 

The shift isn't as clear cut as folks think.  Every year there are 2-4 playoff teams that are in the bottom half of the league for passing yards.

This past year it was Jags, Titans, Panthers and oh yeah, Bills.  Wasn't that long ago that you could expect to see two run-heavy teams deep in the playoffs every year (Seasnakes and 49ers, plus the perennially shallow Chiefs)

 

3 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

Speaking of, who thought our cannon armed QB would be so terrible at long throws? He isn't even close on the majority of them. 

 

Hard to tell.  He's had a couple dimes that were dropped *cough* Foster *cough*.  He's also had a couple where the WR was visibly loafing (*cough* KB *cough*)  or potentially ran the wrong route or the right route wrong.  We'll see, but deep throws are low-percentage for the best of QB

[ROCBillsBeliever]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

And so instead we got Peterman? Sheeesh, McCarron must have been an axe murderer!

 

????

[Freddie's Dead]

Yes.

[ctk232]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

IMO, the biggest gap in Allen's game coming in was those short to intermediate throws, and being able to throw accurately on the roll out.  Every successful NFL QB has to be able to take the gimmee throws, the check-downs and make the D pay.  Brady has made a career out of 3-5 yd passes his WR and TE turn into 6-10.

 

He seems to be getting better - but it's still a gap.  On 2 of his 4 throw-aways, just on the commercial film he had what appeared to be a viable checkdown and ditto on 2 of his 6 incompletions.  If he makes half of them, and mebbe has a WR that doesn't butter-finger the ball up in the air for an INT, now he's at 68% completions and he's more of a viable QB.

I would argue if he masters those throws this year, that's an even more necessary step than the vertical passing game.

 

He's not going to be "ready next year" by throwing incompletions downfield to WR who don't get open or don't run the routes he expects and taking the team 3 and out.

I agree - though his short to mid range throws need to be more accurate, I think the bigger issue here is timing these throws. A fair amount of it has to do with how our WRs are running their routes, but the reason Brady's receivers put 6-10 yards on at the end is his receivers execute their routes and Brady hits them at the exact point to where they can extend for some pretty solid YAC. 

 

I should amend my previous post from "limiting him to mid/short throws" to "limiting him to game manager type throws." While these are certainly throws he needs to execute 100% of the attempts he makes, I'd still like for him to really experience needing to diagnose a defense each and every play, even on run plays, and be able to rely on his arm and ability to manipulate defenses to win games.

 

That being said, the Minnesota game was great for this reason, while benefiting from insane field position every drive, he opened up with a few long throws, but primarily short-mid range targets and evolving into more timed routes. Give the kid throws to build from early in a game, set up the run, and then open it up on play action and solid coverage reads. See how he does with that progression.

[reddogblitz]

Just win baby.

 

As he gets better he can do more.

[Trogdor]

19 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The shift isn't as clear cut as folks think.  Every year there are 2-4 playoff teams that are in the bottom half of the league for passing yards.

This past year it was Jags, Titans, Panthers and oh yeah, Bills.  Wasn't that long ago that you could expect to see two run-heavy teams deep in the playoffs every year (Seasnakes and 49ers, plus the perennially shallow Chiefs)

 

 

Hard to tell.  He's had a couple dimes that were dropped *cough* Foster *cough*.  He's also had a couple where the WR was visibly loafing (*cough* KB *cough*)  or potentially ran the wrong route or the right route wrong.  We'll see, but deep throws are low-percentage for the best of QB

I meant moreso with the penalties. The new passer friendly league is allowing even rushing teams to pass for over 200 consistently. As far as the deep throws, I think he underthrew a couple to Coleman. I can't argue that this receiving Corp is absolutely terrible. 

[The_Dude]

We won ugly on Sunday and had 64 offensive snaps that Allen participated and learned in. You can do both. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

23 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Hard to tell.  He's had a couple dimes that were dropped *cough* Foster *cough*.  He's also had a couple where the WR was visibly loafing (*cough* KB *cough*)  or potentially ran the wrong route or the right route wrong.  We'll see, but deep throws are low-percentage for the best of QB

 

4 hours ago, Trogdor said:

I meant moreso with the penalties. The new passer friendly league is allowing even rushing teams to pass for over 200 consistently. As far as the deep throws, I think he underthrew a couple to Coleman. I can't argue that this receiving Corp is absolutely terrible. 

[BruceVilanch]

Do they have to be mutually exclusive?

[JM57]

1 hour ago, The_Dude said:

We won ugly on Sunday and had 64 offensive snaps that Allen participated and learned in. You can do both. 

Aside from the team winning, what was the difference between Allen's performance Sunday and Tyrod Taylor's performance against the Saints last year?  Both had putrid overall passing numbers. Failing to read the defense and seeing open receivers. Bailing out of the pocket at the slightest hint of pressure. 

 

This team is not in a good place, regardless of record. You cannot consistently win games with a QB passing for under 200 yards. That recipe is your offense bringing a knife to a gun fight.

[Gugny]

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 9:09 AM, Berky1010 said:

There has been a lot of debate about whether we should try and win 8 games this year or prioritize the development of Josh Allen. Both are great but there are a number of people who are mad at yesterday's win given the poor showing at QB. So I would ask you - would you rather 1) See good progress from Allen but win 3-4 games? Or 2) Win 8 games ugly and enter next season without a confident grasp of who will be our long term QB?

 

Anyone mad at a win is a questionable fan.

 

Seeing weekly progress from Allen, to me, is the primary goal.  Along the way, I'll enjoy any wins and hope that players, coaches and the GM will learn from any losses.

[The_Dude]

5 minutes ago, JM57 said:

Aside from the team winning, what was the difference between Allen's performance Sunday and Tyrod Taylor's performance against the Saints last year?  Both had putrid overall passing numbers. Failing to read the defense and seeing open receivers. Bailing out of the pocket at the slightest hint of pressure. 

 

This team is not in a good place, regardless of record. You cannot consistently win games with a QB passing for under 200 yards. That recipe is your offense bringing a knife to a gun fight.

 

I agree with you to an extent. I disagree with your Tyrod vs. Allen comparison. Tyrod didn’t pass for much because he refused to pass. Allen isn’t passing for much because as of right now he sucks. But Allen’s a rookie and has the tools to be great if he can put it together. There was enough evidence with Tyrod to prove he’d never put it together. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Allen needs to play 100% of the time. 

 

Who cares about meaningless wins and losses this season? 

 

It would be asinine for the Bills to pull Allen and put in journeyman Derek Anderson.

 

What a complete waste of time. 

 

If they do that, then I immediately jump on the fire Beane and McDermott bandwagon. 

[JM57]

1 hour ago, The_Dude said:

 

I agree with you to an extent. I disagree with your Tyrod vs. Allen comparison. Tyrod didn’t pass for much because he refused to pass. Allen isn’t passing for much because as of right now he sucks. But Allen’s a rookie and has the tools to be great if he can put it together. There was enough evidence with Tyrod to prove he’d never put it together. 

They are similar but different. Like you said, Taylor wasn't throwing to the open receivers whether that was refusal to throw over the middle or inability to see them due to his height, we don't know. Allen isn't even SEEING them and his height isn't an excuse. Very worrisome.

[Jerome007]

On 10/8/2018 at 9:20 AM, Hebert19 said:

Both. 

 

We won ugly and he learned he doesn't need to look downfield every play.  

 

One doesn't mean the other isnt happening. 

Exactly.

 

And he learns a lot more by "doing little" but being active like in the last game that if he sat out all year watching tape!

 

 

[bdutton]

Play Peterman and draft a QB with the number one next year.  

 

Rinse, rather, repeat.

[Gugny]

50 minutes ago, bdutton said:

Play Peterman and draft a QB with the number one next year.  

 

Rinse, rather, repeat.

 

[The_Dude]

4 hours ago, JM57 said:

They are similar but different. Like you said, Taylor wasn't throwing to the open receivers whether that was refusal to throw over the middle or inability to see them due to his height, we don't know. Allen isn't even SEEING them and his height isn't an excuse. Very worrisome.

 

Meh. It's been four games. If he's still where he's at 4 games into next year I'll hit the panic. 

Allen has shown me NOTHING. Nothing to suggest he'll be great, and nothing to suggest he'll be a bust. 

[Fadingpain]

The correct answer is "Develop Allen" every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

 

Which is why, when this organization starts Anderson, it's going to be really, really tough to take.

 

 

[Trogdor]

11 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Yeah idk why I can't get Coleman and Foster straight. Maybe it's the speed and no hands aspect of their game.