Bills @ Chiefs Postgame Thread

[Logic]

Hmmm...

A lot to digest from that one, and with this thread at 54 pages, looks like I've already missed a lot of the digesting.

- I liked the Bills' offensive gameplan in the first half

- I did not like the Bills' offensive gameplan for most of the second half

- The Chiefs had better second half adjustments than the Bills. This has been a trend this season. 

- Below average year for the Chiefs offense or not, it's still impressive to hold them to 17 points at Arrowhead without Milano, Daquan, Tre, Hyde (for a half), etc.

- AJ Epenesa's loss was felt. He's turned into a good pass rusher, and once he left the game, our pass rush took a hit

- That said, thank God for Leonard Floyd and Ed Oliver, who should both get game balls for yesterday's win

- Josh Allen likes running into people. Let him do it. It gets him fired up and loosens him up. How great was that TD run?!

- Josh Allen -- Super human. Unreal. That sideline fadeaway pass in the 4th quarter? My goodness.

- I thought it was weird to go away from Cook after the opening drive of the second half the way they did. Should've stuck with the hot hand

- That said, it is SO refreshing to see them actually use the pass-catching talents of Cook instead of only throwing it to him on checkdowns

- The Wheel route adjustment up the sideline to Cook was all Allen. It was not drawn up that way

- The wide receivers got shut down yesterday. Good thing we had Cook, Kincaid, and Knox

- How insanely relieved did McDermott look when the Bills stopped the Chiefs on 4th and sealed the game? Woah.

 

For all of the nuance we can pick through, at the end of the day, it was a Bills win when they direly needed it.

The funny thing is that the game didn't really look all that different than recent Bills games this season. Stretches of great offense, stretches of stagnant offense, moments where the D made big plays, moments where they gave up big plays. Josh missing an open Gabe in the end zone at the end. The Bills taking the lead at the end and then the other team getting the ball and driving it down field and scoring. Groundhog's day. Deja Vu all over again. The only difference is, this time the OTHER team messed up, and the Bills were the beneficiaries. The Chiefs out-Bills'd the Bills.

Imagine having that must-win game -- which the Bills dominated the majority of -- end in Chiefs victory on a miracle lateral play like that on the friggin day that Frank Wycheck passes away? It would've been absolutely crushing. It would've destroyed me. It would have played on an endless loop on NFL Network for a full week, back to back with the Music City Miracle. Thank GOODNESS Toney was Offside. Instead, the Bills rallied around their coach, stuck together, played for each other, and did enough to win.

For all the nuance, all the detail, all the coulda shoulda wouldas, and despite the fact that it ultimately looked just like recent games this season...the bottom line is that the Bills won. In this league, that's all that really matters.

[NewEra]

@Billl Thoughts on the game?  Thoughts on Mahomes and Reid’s post game comments?  Thoughts on the penalty?  Thoughts on 2nd and 15 with 1:20 left?  
 

Here’s my take.  
 

13 games ago, was Mahomes crying about the refs handing him a Lombardi by doing the exact opposite of what he’s asking the refs to do.  “Let us play”.  Yet dude is crying about the refs taking away a regular season win by throwing a flag on a blatant offside of a WR, who was lined up inside the hash marks, that didn’t look to the ref and ask if he’s ok.

 

“they wiped out an all time great play by a HoF TE by throwing a flag that had no impact on the play”….. as if that has any relevance.  The flag was thrown before the ball was even thrown.  That’s what you get for having an idiot like Toney out there with the game on the line.  Sometimes you get burned when you play with fire.  

15 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

Most were ready to cut him a long time ago.  Hopefully you guys saw my post predicting we’d lose because the WRs make too many mistakes and I thought it would keep happening….and it did.  Rice fumble, To ey offside.  Same thing all year.  Too many mistakes to overcome.

We also read the post where you said Josh needs lesser WRs.  

[appoo]

6 minutes ago, Logic said:

Hmmm...

A lot to digest from that one, and with this thread at 54 pages, looks like I've already missed a lot of the digesting.

- I liked the Bills' offensive gameplan in the first half

- I did not like the Bills' offensive gameplan for most of the second half

- The Chiefs had better second half adjustments than the Bills. This has been a trend this season. 

- Below average year for the Chiefs offense or not, it's still impressive to hold them to 17 points at Arrowhead without Milano, Daquan, Tre, Hyde (for a half), etc.

- AJ Epenesa's loss was felt. He's turned into a good pass rusher, and once he left the game, our pass rush took a hit

- That said, thank God for Leonard Floyd and Ed Oliver, who should both get game balls for yesterday's win

- Josh Allen likes running into people. Let him do it. It gets him fired up and loosens him up. How great was that TD run?!

- Josh Allen -- Super human. Unreal. That sideline fadeaway pass in the 4th quarter? My goodness.

- I thought it was weird to go away from Cook after the opening drive of the second half the way they did. Should've stuck with the hot hand

- That said, it is SO refreshing to see them actually use the pass-catching talents of Cook instead of only throwing it to him on checkdowns

- The Wheel route adjustment up the sideline to Cook was all Allen. It was not drawn up that way

- The wide receivers got shut down yesterday. Good thing we had Cook, Kincaid, and Knox

- How insanely relieved did McDermott look when the Bills stopped the Chiefs on 4th and sealed the game? Woah.

 

For all of the nuance we can pick through, at the end of the day, it was a Bills win when they direly needed it.

The funny thing is that the game didn't really look all that different than recent Bills games this season. Stretches of great offense, stretches of stagnant offense, moments where the D made big plays, moments where they gave up big plays. Josh missing an open Gabe in the end zone at the end. The Bills taking the lead at the end and then the other team getting the ball and driving it down field and scoring. Groundhog's day. Deja Vu all over again. The only difference is, this time the OTHER team messed up, and the Bills were the beneficiaries. The Chiefs out-Bills'd the Bills.

Imagine having that must-win game -- which the Bills dominated the majority of -- end in Chiefs victory on a miracle lateral play like that on the friggin day that Frank Wycheck passes away? It would've been absolutely crushing. It would've destroyed me. It would have played on an endless loop on NFL Network for a full week, back to back with the Music City Miracle. Thank GOODNESS Toney was Offside. Instead, the Bills rallied around their coach, stuck together, played for each other, and did enough to win.

For all the nuance, all the detail, all the coulda shoulda wouldas, and despite the fact that it ultimately looked just like recent games this season...the bottom line is that the Bills won. In this league, that's all that really matters.

 

Think you need to give the Chiefs defense a ton of credit for the 2nd half offensive struggles. They dominated their match ups in the secondary and along the trenches

[Bray Wyatt]

Toney is an obvious spy planted by our NYG friends Daboll and Schoen to help sabotage KC

[Ralonzo]

9 minutes ago, Logic said:

- The wide receivers got shut down yesterday. Good thing we had Cook, Kincaid, and Knox

 

 

To me that was brilliant scheming by Spags understanding he had a guy Sneed that has evolved into something like Ahmad Gardner sans grappling hooks. The Bills were scheming and I'm sure Josh was coached to take the 1-on-1 matchup which was almost always Sneed. Every time I looked at a pass being broken up it was #38 and he ended up covering everyone at some point. Josh was probably running the progression as coached to find that matchup, but the Chiefs were winning with #38 vs anyone. There was a fly Diggs ran (that ridiculously flat deep right throw) where Diggs had a step and half and Sneed caught up to blanket him in like 3 strides like Diggs was JV.

 

The Chiefs seemed like they were doubling/shading the other options and funnelling the Bills to the single cover vs #38 and the Bills had nobody who could beat the man.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Why do we win in the regular season but lose to them in the playoffs?

 

Is it home-field advantage?

 

Is it better coaching?  If so, why doesn't Reid and his staff outcoach McD and his during the regular season?

 

Do their players handle the stress of playoff games better than our players? 

 

Or is it just freaking luck?  The teams are more-or-less evenly matched so some days things go their way and some days things go ours.  

 

 

 

I wouldn't say it's luck........they got dominated in the 2020 AFCCG and I just think since then it's just always been a game the Bills are really up for and the Chiefs don't feel the same urgency.   

 

They've outplayed them in KC each time since that AFCCG, IMO.

 

The divisional playoff loss was probably the most "luck" affected game because the Chiefs ended up getting 2 more possessions than the Bills in that game because they won both coin tosses and finished both halves with the ball.......2 more possessions is a pretty unusual situation to occur in a game.   

[NewEra]

19 minutes ago, appoo said:

 

Think you need to give the Chiefs defense a ton of credit for the 2nd half offensive struggles. They dominated their match ups in the secondary and along the trenches

And with their blitzing.  We failed to counter their blitzes properly 

[Jauronimo]

25 minutes ago, NewEra said:

@Billl Thoughts on the game?  Thoughts on Mahomes and Reid’s post game comments?  Thoughts on the penalty?  Thoughts on 2nd and 15 with 1:20 left?  
 

Here’s my take.  
 

13 games ago, was Mahomes crying about the refs handing him a Lombardi by doing the exact opposite of what he’s asking the refs to do.  “Let us play”.  Yet dude is crying about the refs taking away a regular season win by throwing a flag on a blatant offside of a WR, who was lined up inside the hash marks, that didn’t look to the ref and ask if he’s ok.

 

“they wiped out an all time great play by a HoF TE by throwing a flag that had no impact on the play”….. as if that has any relevance.  The flag was thrown before the ball was even thrown.  That’s what you get for having an idiot like Toney out there with the game on the line.  Sometimes you get burned when you play with fire.  

We also read the post where you said Josh needs lesser WRs.  

The Chiefs continually overlook character concerns while signing dirt bags and idiots. Who knew that could backfire?

[Dablitzkrieg]

[Logic]

Forget to say in my post, and I'm sure it's a sentiment echoed by most of the posters here...

The post-game behavior by Mahomes at midfield and the post-game comments by both he and Reid were super bush league. Made them both look like crybaby chumps. They're not even wrong that the refs in the NFL are a serious problem this year. But choosing THIS moment -- when the player actually DID commit a penalty, and an egregiously obvious one at that -- to kvetch about it was a bad look. The Chiefs are quite often the beneficiaries of over-officiousness. The ONE time it bites them in a big moment -- and again, that penalty arguably SHOULD have been called, and it WAS egregious -- they complain the way they did?

And for Mahomes to show the lack of sportsmanship he did in the post-game handshake, when Josh is always so gracious even after crushing losses. Just a bad, pathetic look by him. And thankfully, the NFL media world at large mostly seems to agree. Have seen quite a few voices from all over the spectrum echoing the sentiment that Mahomes and Reid looked like babies for the way they behaved. Personally, I lost a lot of respect for Mahomes last night.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Logic

[Warcodered]

53 minutes ago, Logic said:

Imagine having that must-win game -- which the Bills dominated the majority of -- end in Chiefs victory on a miracle lateral play like that on the friggin day that Frank Wycheck passes away? It would've been absolutely crushing. It would've destroyed me. It would have played on an endless loop on NFL Network for a full week, back to back with the Music City Miracle. Thank GOODNESS Toney was Offside. Instead, the Bills rallied around their coach, stuck together, played for each other, and did enough to win.

Especially with Toney committing two penalties the Offside and a pick that got Kelce wide open, would have been aggravating as hell.

 

 

[NewEra]

2nd and 15- Von Miller beats Morris gets to Mahomes and forces him yo throw it away.  Funny how Josh gets called for intentional grounding while being horse collared as the ball lands 2-3 yards from Gabe Davis…. Meanwhile Mahomes is wrapped up legit, turns and fires to an empty spot, ball landing 5 yards from the closest guy. 
 

3rd and 15-  Ed bulldozes Thuney to deflect the pass.

 

4th and 15. Floyd beats Taylor after the TE ran interference on him and forces Mahomes throw the ball when he didn’t want to. 
 

last three plays.  Zero blitzes.  3 pressures.  Our Front 4 whooped their overpaid OL to win the game. 
 

I love this DL.  We can win the SB if they can bring it in the 4th quarter the rest of the way.  McD not blitzing.  I wonder what our record would be had he not decided to bring the house in crucial situations.  He managed our last offensive possession terribly.  But he made up for it by calling a good defense to end the game.

 

toney had some say in that, but I still liked his play calling on the last 3.  He brought 6 on Kelces unbelievably smart HoF play AND the pick that got him open.  Then decided to try and win with 4.  And our boys came through in the clutch

[f0neguy]

For everyone calling Kelces play a “Hall of Fame” type play, I disagree.   He got open because Toney blocked the back covering him.  After the pick, Toney faded off to the left but always stayed behind Kelsey instead of going to the play to legally block.   That was a designed play from the start.  (Except for the offside and the RT lining up illegally-way too far back from the line.)

[AKC]

I am trying to find the film of Mahomes demanding they "let us play" after this play a week ago:

 

Mahomes Not A Late Hit Flag

Edited December 11, 2023 by AKC

[NewEra]

7 minutes ago, f0neguy said:

For everyone calling Kelces play a “Hall of Fame” type play, I disagree.   He got open because Toney blocked the back covering him.  After the pick, Toney faded off to the left but always stayed behind Kelsey instead of going to the play to legally block.   That was a designed play from the start.  (Except for the offside and the RT lining up illegally-way too far back from the line.)

The HoF play wasn’t getting open and catching the ball…… 

8 minutes ago, f0neguy said:

For everyone calling Kelces play a “Hall of Fame” type play, I disagree.   He got open because Toney blocked the back covering him.  After the pick, Toney faded off to the left but always stayed behind Kelsey instead of going to the play to legally block.   That was a designed play from the start.  (Except for the offside and the RT lining up illegally-way too far back from the line.)

Link?  

[Simon]

25 minutes ago, f0neguy said:

That was a designed play from the start.

 

That was absolutely not a designed play.

 

But I will bet he does it again before the end of the year.

[WotAGuy]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

Hmmm...
 

- The Wheel route adjustment up the sideline to Cook was all Allen. It was not drawn up that way

 

Well thought out post!  FYI - on WGR this morning they were talking about the wheel route and Sal said Allen’s and Brady both said it was a planned read for a specific defensive alignment (Cover 0), and Allen read it and responded as designed.  A great play and one we’ve seen Kelce kill us on many times up the seam. 

[RobbRiddick]

Can I ask, was that play by Kelce really one of "the greatest moments in NFL history" as I've heard multiple talking heads say today? 

 

I don't get it. It was a great heads up play by Kelce, he saw Toney was all alone and lateraled to him. A pretty simple lateral to my eyes. Yet I hear Rich Eisen say "that penalty wiped out one of the most remarkable athletic plays I've ever seen".

 

Fine, maybe it was truly incredible and I'm just not easily impressed or something, but there are multiple plays every week that take my breath away. I just find it odd how everyone is talking about it

[Simon]

8 minutes ago, RobbRiddick said:

I don't get it. It was a great heads up play by Kelce, he saw Toney was all alone and lateraled to him. A pretty simple lateral to my eyes.

 

 

It was an impressively fast release and accurate delivery of probably 15-20yrds from a big man on the move in traffic.

But I was less amazed by the athleticism than I was by the vision and instincts.

 

[f0neguy]

So Toney stays back and off to the side watching Kelsey run through traffic?   If if weren’t scripted, he would have attempted to throw a block to spring Kelsey.  Afterwards, Chief’s players said Kelsey makes that throw in practice.  I believe it was planned 💯.

[appoo]

7 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

 

It was an impressively fast release and accurate delivery of probably 15-20yrds from a big man on the move in traffic.

But I was less amazed by the athleticism than I was by the vision and instincts.

 

yea I don't know about being reductive with that play. It was a pantheon level play from a pantheon level football player

[Simon]

7 minutes ago, f0neguy said:

So Toney stays back and off to the side watching Kelsey run through traffic?   If if weren’t scripted, he would have attempted to throw a block to spring Kelsey. 

 

My read is that Toney had completed has assigned task on the play, was well aware he couldn't get close enough to anybody to affect it any further so stayed where he was to a) watch the play b) stay available and c) not stray far from where he was likely going to have to quickly line up shortly.

 

7 minutes ago, f0neguy said:

 Afterwards, Chief’s players said Kelsey makes that throw in practice.

I have no doubt he tries it a bunch in practice; it was clearly not the first time he's considered it.

And I have no doubt the Chiefs skill players are regularly coached to keep themselves available like that, particularly in late game situations.

 

But nobody has a pre-designed play where a pass-catcher weaves 15 yards downfield, cuts across the grain then rips a 20yrd lateral across the field.

It was not designed.

[zow2]

Cam Lewis had the presence of mind to slow down and jump up trying to block/deflect the lateral, but amazingly the ball eluded him.  Had he deflected it, the football would have been a fumble and the Bills could have pounced on it.  That play was great but not without some risk there.

[DrDawkinstein]

13 minutes ago, f0neguy said:

So Toney stays back and off to the side watching Kelsey run through traffic?   If if weren’t scripted, he would have attempted to throw a block to spring Kelsey.  Afterwards, Chief’s players said Kelsey makes that throw in practice.  I believe it was planned 💯.

 

First off, "Kelce".

 

Second, it was absolutely improvised. Kelce talks about it all the time on his podcast, about wanting to throw laterals and how it pisses off Reid in practice. Mahomes also confirmed post game that it was an improvised lateral.

 

It isnt even Kelce's first lateral this season, but normally he does more of a hand off to a guy right near him. Nothing this drastic.

 

To the bold, yes, Toney is exactly the type of player to not run down field to help block and instead stand there and watch. He's horrible.

[Simon]

22 minutes ago, f0neguy said:

I believe it was planned 💯.

Also found a quote from Mahomes postgame that confirms:

 

“It’s a legendary moment, man. It’s not taught. Something that only a couple people in this world would even think about doing,” Mahomes added. “For him to make that play in that moment—making the play, making the catch, making a couple dudes miss and then throwing the ball across the field to another guy and scoring a touchdown in that moment—I hope they still show it whenever he goes into the Hall of Fame. Because that’s a legendary moment....

 

6 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

It isnt even Kelce's first lateral this season, but normally he does more of a hand off to a guy right near him. Nothing this drastic.

 

 

I didn't realize he'd done it in a game before.

 

But I was going to say that I'd bet a good chunk of money that he's absolutely going to try it again before the year is out.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see him start incorporating an occasional pump fake into his YAC if the angles are right.

 

[Old Coot]

Kelce is a former QB so his accurate delivery was no surprise.

 

I can see why Reid doesn't like laterals. As a famous run-oriented coach one said: with a pass, three things can happen and two of them are bad.

[DrDawkinstein]

13 minutes ago, Simon said:

I didn't realize he'd done it in a game before.

 

But I was going to say that I'd bet a good chunk of money that he's absolutely going to try it again before the year is out.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see him start incorporating an occasional pump fake into his YAC if the angles are right.

 

 

 

 

Kelce confirmed after the game that this was improvised in the moment because he saw McCoy right there.

 

This next one is from this season...

 

 

He also did it in the AFC Champ game for a fumble

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by DrDawkinstein

[Simon]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

Kelce confirmed after the game that this was improvised in the moment because he saw McCoy right there.

 

This next one is from this season...

 

He also did it in the AFC Champ game for a fumble

 

 

Thanks, man. I do now remember that one vs the Bengals.

Hadn't realized it was something he was regularly looking for but am surprisingly unsurprised.

It's like they have a QB throwing downfield to another QB. 

 

[JerseyBills]

3 hours ago, davefan66 said:

Certainly looks like he’s going nowhere.

As he shouldn't be

[BuffaloBillyG]

Gabe Davis's mom speaking out...😬

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, BuffaloBillyG said:

Gabe Davis's mom speaking out...😬

 

He does that.

 

A lot.

 

A lot more than anyone here likes to admit. Davis was NCAA open there, and he just couldn't or wouldn't see him.

 

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Gabe Davis's mom speaking out...😬

He's an afterthought for good reason

[BuffaloBillyG]

10 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

 

He does that.

 

A lot.

 

A lot more than anyone here likes to admit. Davis was NCAA open there, and he just couldn't or wouldn't see him.

 

And if that's the case....why do you suppose that is? 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

1 hour ago, zow2 said:

Cam Lewis had the presence of mind to slow down and jump up trying to block/deflect the lateral, but amazingly the ball eluded him.  Had he deflected it, the football would have been a fumble and the Bills could have pounced on it.  That play was great but not without some risk there.

great point. 
 

(Between that and the Justin Jefferson catch, cam Lewis has to be the Billsiest player we got).

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

 

He does that.

 

A lot.

 

A lot more than anyone here likes to admit. Davis was NCAA open there, and he just couldn't or wouldn't see him.

 

 

Oh come off it. There are plays like this in every game for every QB. This isn't Madden. Allen has defined rules on every play. On this one he never had time to get past his first read because pressure immediately got in his face so he correctly launched it to Kincaid in single coverage. Unfortunately it was a tad too far upfield for Kincaid to make a play on the ball.

 

What sucks about this play is Brady had been setting it up all game. We faked a screen to Diggs and the play worked exactly as intended drawing the KC defenders forward, but because our OL couldn't block for a half second Allen had to make a quick throw off his back foot to his first read.

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by HappyDays

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

22 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

He's an afterthought for good reason

Davis couldn’t even cleanly recover Murray’s fumble, effectively dropping that too. 

[Wayne Arnold]

 

[GoBills808]

10 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

Davis couldn’t even cleanly recover Murray’s fumble, effectively dropping that too. 

lol swear to god that was my first thought...this dude can't even catch a fumble

[LarryMadman]

It was one of the first couple of drive that stalled out at the KC 40, why did McD not try a FG there? Also why not try a long FG with .03 seconds before the half instead of a hail mary? Does he not trust Bass just like he doesn't trust Josh with .20 seconds, paranoid coaching will not get desired results.

[TBBills Fan]

Did we win?