O'Cyrus Torrence.....A pretty solid rookie season?? Plus, thoughts on Beane.

[Special K]

Torrence got off to a really strong start to his rookie season, but I have noticed a few rookie mistakes over the last few weeks surprisingly in run-blocking plays.

 

Overall, I think he is having an overall solid rookie year, and has the potential to be a Pro-Bowl level Guard for years to come.

 

Another good pick by Beane over the last few years.....yes he absolutely whiffed on the Elam pick, but he added 3 starters in that Draft(Cook, Bernard, Benford) and the picks of Kincaid, Torrence, and D. Williams are all looking quite promising.

 

Thoughts??

[Success]

It's something about the way we develop players (we tend to be slow in getting some rookies involved) - but one thing that is clear to me is that Beane's picks sometimes need time.  Epenesa is a great example. Oliver was sort of underachieving until this past year  I think most here had written Bernard off.

 

Which is why I'm not so quick to write off 22-year-old Elam.  I think he probably was hampered by injury a bit this year, and it wouldn't surprise me to see him start for us next year.

 

Agreed on Torrence - he has made some mistakes recently, but it's easy to see that he's a good lineman and was a good pick for us.

 

[Warcodered]

Yes feels like he's done really well, early on he had a great start. There was a point where he was having some struggles like defenders had tape on him and adjusted, but it feels like I haven't been hearing as much about him lately like he's started to balance it out.

[Dubie54]

He’s had a solid year. Some rookie growing pains along the way but definite signs that he can be a fixture in the line for years, barring injury. The Bills run production has clearly benefitted from his ability to move people although his pass protection has been more inconsistent, but not unlike other OL rookies adjusting to the complexities of D line stunts.

[BuffaloBillyG]

4 minutes ago, Special K said:

Torrence got off to a really strong start to his rookie season, but I have noticed a few rookie mistakes over the last few weeks surprisingly in run-blocking plays.

 

Overall, I think he is having an overall solid rookie year, and has the potential to be a Pro-Bowl level Guard for years to come.

 

Another good pick by Beane over the last few years.....yes he absolutely whiffed on the Elam pick, but he added 3 starters in that Draft(Cook, Bernard, Benford) and the picks of Kincaid, Torrence, and D. Williams are all looking quite promising.

 

Thoughts??

Torrence was my guy during the pre draft process. Watched a lot of him and was (and am still) excited we have him. He did start strong. Very strong. He's still winning a high percentage of his reps. As you said, there have been a few flaws lately but I think this is more of teams watching him and exploiting his weaknesses which seems to be speed on the inside (to his left).

 

I have no doubt he'll get that cleaned up.

 

[balln]

He has to be an average to just above average starter already in the NfL. And he plays next to Spencer brown. 
 

best you could hope for

[Drew21PA]

A+ in my book

 

samw with his free agency pick up of McGovern 

[RiotAct]

He’s been quite good overall… solid pick by Beane.

 

I’m pretty sure he was the only offensive lineman last Sunday to NOT commit at least one penalty 😂

[starrymessenger]

19 minutes ago, Special K said:

Torrence got off to a really strong start to his rookie season, but I have noticed a few rookie mistakes over the last few weeks surprisingly in run-blocking plays.

 

Overall, I think he is having an overall solid rookie year, and has the potential to be a Pro-Bowl level Guard for years to come.

 

Another good pick by Beane over the last few years.....yes he absolutely whiffed on the Elam pick, but he added 3 starters in that Draft(Cook, Bernard, Benford) and the picks of Kincaid, Torrence, and D. Williams are all looking quite promising.

 

Thoughts??

Torrence is not perfect. That's hardly surprising. Rooks face a serious learning curve in the pros and he's no different. He needs to improve his mobility to make plays at the second level. He can pull but it's not a strength. If he can improve that he will likely be a perennial pro bowler because the other requirements of his position he is well on his way to meeting at a high level. Absent injury he can be expected to have a long career as a starter in this league. That makes him a very good late second round pick. Really he should prolly not have been there. Another good fact in his case is that looking at his transfers he always was able to up his game and become dominant in short order even as the competition improved. In judging a young player's potential to transition that is a very useful indicator. 

Edited December 2, 2023 by starrymessenger

[Special K]

9 minutes ago, Success said:

 

Which is why I'm not so quick to write off 22-year-old Elam.  I think he probably was hampered by injury a bit this year, and it wouldn't surprise me to see him start for us next year.

 

 

The trade for Rasul Douglas has lessened the impact of Elam’s struggles, but I hope you are right and he puts it together next year enough to make a noticeable contribution to the Defense.

[Saint Doug]

11 minutes ago, Success said:

It's something about the way we develop players (we tend to be slow in getting some rookies involved) - but one thing that is clear to me is that Beane's picks sometimes need time.  Epenesa is a great example. Oliver was sort of underachieving until this past year  I think most here had written Bernard off.

 

Which is why I'm not so quick to write off 22-year-old Elam.  I think he probably was hampered by injury a bit this year, and it wouldn't surprise me to see him start for us next year.

 

Agreed on Torrence - he has made some mistakes recently, but it's easy to see that he's a good lineman and was a good pick for us.

 

All of Beane’s top 3 round picks are need based. I can’t think of one that wasn’t. AJE was need, Torrence was need, Elam was need, and Kincaid was need. This is fine, because a rookie can make an immediate impact in the NFL. It’s only bad when the need outweighs the quality, like Elam. 

[C.Biscuit97]

O line stuff is so boring to me but I having noticed him once this year and I believe that is a great thing. Seems like a very solid pick. 
 

[Dan Darragh]

26 minutes ago, Success said:

Which is why I'm not so quick to write off 22-year-old Elam.  I think he probably was hampered by injury a bit this year, and it wouldn't surprise me to see him start for us next year.

I think the problem with Elam is that his playbook is still on the plane.

[Capco]

I liked the pick on draft day and I'm glad it's borne fruit.

If we draft another lineman of similar caliber in 2024, I'd be very happy.  

[Special K]

1 minute ago, Capco said:

I liked the pick on draft day and I'm glad it's borne fruit.

If we draft another lineman of similar caliber in 2024, I'd be very happy.  

 

I’d love them to get a top-tier RT.

[Don Otreply]

13 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

O line stuff is so boring to me but I having noticed him once this year and I believe that is a great thing. Seems like a very solid pick. 
 

I here ya, the irony is that the O-line is the fulcrum point of every offense and really should get more hype, jmo. 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Don Otreply

[Capco]

3 minutes ago, Special K said:

 

I’d love them to get a top-tier RT.

Same.  Although if it's a 1st round pick, then I can see some fans getting upset that we didn't use it to draft a WR lol. 

But for me, a balanced RT would really help reduce the load on Josh's shoulders more than a WR could.  WRs are just flashier.  

7 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

I here ya, the irony is that the O-line is the fulcrum point of every offense and really should get more hype, jmo. 

100%.

[Special K]

26 minutes ago, Capco said:

Same.  Although if it's a 1st round pick, then I can see some fans getting upset that we didn't use it to draft a WR lol. 

But for me, a balanced RT would really help reduce the load on Josh's shoulders more than a WR could.  WRs are just flashier.  

100%.

 

Some of the best O-lines in football have 1st round RT's on them.

 

Sewell in Detroit, and Lane Johnson in Philadelphia come to mind.

 

In a passing league, and for a team with a QB as valuable as Josh Allen, RT is almost as important of a position as LT, IMO.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Special K

[smward8]

Terrence has done pretty well as a rookie.  I'd like to see them draft a center in the second or third round in th next draft, and give the guy a year behind Morse.  

[Warcodered]

5 minutes ago, smward8 said:

Terrence has done pretty well as a rookie.  I'd like to see them draft a center in the second or third round in th next draft, and give the guy a year behind Morse.  

I'm not as worried about that with Bates and the other rookie they had at the spot in preseason, they'd be good to battle it out for the spot I'd think. More interested in getting a solid right tackle.

[Codyny13]

3 hours ago, Special K said:

Torrence got off to a really strong start to his rookie season, but I have noticed a few rookie mistakes over the last few weeks surprisingly in run-blocking plays.

 

Overall, I think he is having an overall solid rookie year, and has the potential to be a Pro-Bowl level Guard for years to come.

 

Another good pick by Beane over the last few years.....yes he absolutely whiffed on the Elam pick, but he added 3 starters in that Draft(Cook, Bernard, Benford) and the picks of Kincaid, Torrence, and D. Williams are all looking quite promising.

 

Thoughts??

I think generally some rookies run out of steam. It’s a long season after a college football transition. The bye week should do him well.

[ControllerOfPlanetX]

4 hours ago, Special K said:

Torrence got off to a really strong start to his rookie season, but I have noticed a few rookie mistakes over the last few weeks surprisingly in run-blocking plays.

 

Overall, I think he is having an overall solid rookie year, and has the potential to be a Pro-Bowl level Guard for years to come.

 

Another good pick by Beane over the last few years.....yes he absolutely whiffed on the Elam pick, but he added 3 starters in that Draft(Cook, Bernard, Benford) and the picks of Kincaid, Torrence, and D. Williams are all looking quite promising.

 

Thoughts??

you mean “Flag Football” level Guard..

[MasterStrategist]

4 hours ago, Special K said:

Torrence got off to a really strong start to his rookie season, but I have noticed a few rookie mistakes over the last few weeks surprisingly in run-blocking plays.

 

Overall, I think he is having an overall solid rookie year, and has the potential to be a Pro-Bowl level Guard for years to come.

 

Another good pick by Beane over the last few years.....yes he absolutely whiffed on the Elam pick, but he added 3 starters in that Draft(Cook, Bernard, Benford) and the picks of Kincaid, Torrence, and D. Williams are all looking quite promising.

 

Thoughts??

Agree, Torrence has at least been reliable/consistent for us (something we've lacked).

 

Agree on Beane in general, hitting on starters/key depth.  

 

Problem has been finding/hitting on "stars", Kincaid has the look of a future star though.  To keep up with big dogs, we need to find 1 every few seasons.  I'd say we're back on track, if Kincaid continues to be a force.  Ed has been a "star", need more though in general.  

 

The other problem has been the FA ROI on DL.  Finally hit on 2 key ones, in Floyd/Daquan.  But both FAs after this season. Going to need to keep "hitting" on his $4-$7m investments rentals.  I like his approach, and getting Von looked great until the ACL, but we are now getting "old" and alot of cap tied up in serious-injured players

[947]

The Guard play overall has been a significant improvement over last year. There's still some mistakes on stunts & occasional misses, but we're never overmatched there like we were so often in 2022. I feel really good about Torrence & McGovern for the future.

[Einstein]

4 hours ago, Success said:

 

Which is why I'm not so quick to write off 22-year-old Elam. 

 

 

Goodness gracious it’s Edmunds all over again.

 

In all seriousness though, the difference between Elam and your other examples (Epenesa), is that the team itself has written Elam off. They’re screaming “he sucks” and some and have their hands over their ears.

[CheshireCT]

4 hours ago, Success said:

It's something about the way we develop players (we tend to be slow in getting some rookies involved) - but one thing that is clear to me is that Beane's picks sometimes need time.  Epenesa is a great example. Oliver was sort of underachieving until this past year  I think most here had written Bernard off.

 

Which is why I'm not so quick to write off 22-year-old Elam.  I think he probably was hampered by injury a bit this year, and it wouldn't surprise me to see him start for us next year.

 

Agreed on Torrence - he has made some mistakes recently, but it's easy to see that he's a good lineman and was a good pick for us.

 

I think some of that has to do with McD too. Seems like he’s on the tougher end of “you have to earn it.”

 

with Elam, Beane and McD seem to have hinted at a loss of confidence. Which would be an explanation for the talented guy sitting on the bench.

[BigAl2526]

5 hours ago, Success said:

It's something about the way we develop players (we tend to be slow in getting some rookies involved) - but one thing that is clear to me is that Beane's picks sometimes need time.  Epenesa is a great example. Oliver was sort of underachieving until this past year  I think most here had written Bernard off.

 

Which is why I'm not so quick to write off 22-year-old Elam.  I think he probably was hampered by injury a bit this year, and it wouldn't surprise me to see him start for us next year.

 

Agreed on Torrence - he has made some mistakes recently, but it's easy to see that he's a good lineman and was a good pick for us.

 

McDermott clearly places a premium on experience, though he has normally started first round picks.  Elam was the one first rounder who did not quickly become a starter.  Oliver has taken a while to develop, but that's not unusual even for first round picks who start from day one.  If first round picks often need development time, it's no surprise that later picks like Epenesa and Bernard can take time to develop.  As for Elam, maybe he'll develop in McDermott's scheme and maybe not.  Lot's of first round picks bust.

 

I agree on Torrence.  He's been a successful first round pick and there's no reason to think he won't improve his technique and gain some polish going forward.

[oldmanfan]

Beane has done a good job overall.  I would have liked more attention to the lines because to me you build from inside out, but overall good job.  He got the franchise QB, the most critical thing.

[John from Riverside]

Would like to see a bring in some competition for that right tackle Cyrus would be even better. He’s gonna end up being a monster anyway.

[julian]

24 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Would like to see a bring in some competition for that right tackle Cyrus would be even better. He’s gonna end up being a monster anyway.

Sure, but definitely no need to spend a high pick to replace Brown like many thought prior to the season.

 

 Brown has put together a nice season and still has room to continue to improve alongside OCyrus going forward.

[John from Riverside]

17 minutes ago, julian said:

Sure, but definitely no need to spend a high pick to replace Brown like many thought prior to the season.

 

 Brown has put together a nice season and still has room to continue to improve alongside OCyrus going forward.

I think that our top pics should go to wide receiver and safety as long as the board falls, right
 

We could get a right tackle with that third round pick we get from Edmonds

 

I don’t want startneglecting the line right when we have it in the right direction

[julian]

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

I think that our top pics should go to wide receiver and safety as long as the board falls, right
 

We could get a right tackle with that third round pick we get from Edmonds

 

I don’t want startneglecting the line right when we have it in the right direction

3rd is still to high for my liking, but I understand your reasoning.

[Since1981]

7 hours ago, Success said:

develop players (we tend to be slow in getting some rookies involved)

Hmmmm. Could it be that GM brought in the capability but the HC not efficiently ramping them up? Wait! Coaching matters!!?? 

20 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I think that our top pics should go to wide receiver and safety as long as the board falls, right

Agreed. I am a “best player available” in general, within reason. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Since1981

[MasterStrategist]

30 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I think that our top pics should go to wide receiver and safety as long as the board falls, right
 

We could get a right tackle with that third round pick we get from Edmonds

 

I don’t want startneglecting the line right when we have it in the right direction

Yeah too high for my liking still, given Browns play this yr.  But I'm for Bpa.

 

Since we have just 1 3rd rounder now, I'd rather see Wr round 1, then S/DT with our next picks.

 

DT is an obvious early choice, given our lack of depth going forward

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, Einstein said:

In all seriousness though, the difference between Elam and your other examples (Epenesa), is that the team itself has written Elam off. They’re screaming “he sucks” and some and have their hands over their ears.

 

 

Eh........we'll see.

 

Very early in this season we had a mod start/title a thread declaring Spencer Brown the biggest problem on the team.........echoing the sentiments of A LOT of other parrots who seemed to have zero perspective on the expected learning curve for an NFL RT from a small school with little actual college game experience.

 

Had he struggled?   Yeah but it was a big adjustment for him coming to the pro's and unlike the CB position the Bills didn't have access to a better option so they had to let Brown play thru his struggles. 

 

Perhaps for Elam the complicated zone-heavy defense has just proven a struggle to learn like the pro game did early on for the less talented Rasul Douglas.

 

Elam is a very talented player...........I'd be far less than surprised if he emerged as a good starter next season.

[PBF81]

8 hours ago, Success said:

It's something about the way we develop players (we tend to be slow in getting some rookies involved) - but one thing that is clear to me is that Beane's picks sometimes need time.  Epenesa is a great example. Oliver was sort of underachieving until this past year  I think most here had written Bernard off.

 

Which is why I'm not so quick to write off 22-year-old Elam.  I think he probably was hampered by injury a bit this year, and it wouldn't surprise me to see him start for us next year.

 

Agreed on Torrence - he has made some mistakes recently, but it's easy to see that he's a good lineman and was a good pick for us.

 

 

That translates to coaching though.  

 

The primary issue with that, and a huge problem for us, is that when your rookies develop late,  you waste their "cheap contract years."   

 

In essence, you're creating unnecessary cap issues for yourself.  

 

 

[Neo]

To the learned ….  he does a hand punch or jab pre snap.   Is he responding to signals being called?   While I’ve not exactly charted anything, he doesn’t seem to be “calling” this guy or that as his man …  I don’t see it elsewhere as regularly.   Gratefulness in advance …

[stevestojan]

Starting to wonder if Elam is really as bad as I’ve thought or if our genius DC just doesn’t know how to develop him. 

[Special K]

21 minutes ago, Neo said:

To the learned ….  he does a hand punch or jab pre snap.   Is he responding to signals being called?   While I’ve not exactly charted anything, he doesn’t seem to be “calling” this guy or that as his man …  I don’t see it elsewhere as regularly.   Gratefulness in advance …

 

I believe you are talking about the silent snap count.....he's looking at Josh Allen, then when Josh is ready for the snap, he moves his arm as a signal to Morse to snap the ball. You will only see this in games on the road....its used to combat the crowd noise.

[billybrew1]

10 hours ago, Success said:

It's something about the way we develop players (we tend to be slow in getting some rookies involved) - but one thing that is clear to me is that Beane's picks sometimes need time.  Epenesa is a great example. Oliver was sort of underachieving until this past year  I think most here had written Bernard off.

 

Which is why I'm not so quick to write off 22-year-old Elam.  I think he probably was hampered by injury a bit this year, and it wouldn't surprise me to see him start for us next year.

 

Agreed on Torrence - he has made some mistakes recently, but it's easy to see that he's a good lineman and was a good pick for us.

 

The slow developing DL is all on Frazier and his desire not attack with his DL until the playoffs (for the most part.) This slows down their development by a country mile and has them playing the wrong style…. Example: Ed did not attack during the regular season under Frazier and Ed skill-set is that of an attacking three-tech…… He played everyone out of position and McD is the answer to why Groot, Ed, DaQuon and AJ look so much better this year.