What of Elam now??

[Spiderweb]

16 hours ago, BananaB said:

I find it funny so many think he is bad but Benford and Dane are solid. They all look bad to me. 
 

Benford probably the best but he gives up his fair share and takes penalties every game

I have found Benford wanting as well. Seems that for every solid play he makes, he messes up 2. To me, he looked better last year.

[SCBills]

Beane speaking on Elam dealing with an ankle injury and the potential of shutting him down to let him heal. 

[Roundybout]

1 minute ago, SCBills said:

Beane speaking on Elam dealing with an ankle injury and the potential of shutting him down to let him heal. 

Wait what? Has this been on the injury report?

[Big Blitz]

9 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

Wait what? Has this been on the injury report?

 

Nope

[Maine-iac]

Already said it but since the question is still being asked .............. Elam didn't get pulled because he couldn't cover even though Ridley was eating his lunch  Elam got pulled because we needed to stop the run and he was whiffing on guys and giving up big run plays.  

 

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2023/10/11/23911586/bills-vs-jaguars-a-tale-of-two-different-golden-opportunities-de-aj-epenesa-cb-kaiir-elam-nfl-week-5

[Big Turk]

13 minutes ago, Spiderweb said:

I have found Benford wanting as well. Seems that for every solid play he makes, he messes up 2. To me, he looked better last year.

 

Thought Benford had a strong game against the Bucs for the most part.

Hmm..interesting...perhaps this is pat of the reason why Elam hasn't been playing well?

 

 

[The Wiz]

[BrettFavre]

Pretty obvious 53 man manipulation on a guy who couldn't make the active roster even prior to us adding another CB. I support it though, stash him and hope for next year.

[davefan66]

49 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

They really have their hands tied, his contract is guaranteed and theres 2 full years left.  Trading him next year gets you out of guaranteed base, and you have less of a bonus burden you can spread.  Jackson (UFA) gets replaced on the roster next year by douglas, white is back (depending on the draft direction he could be a cap casualty), you have benford, and then Elam. 

 

I would suspect one of the late picks at least is used on a corner to either push elam off the roster, or at least potentially find a project who projects as a better fit in what we do.  Elam likely gets every chance to make an impact and the team in that scenario, and if he doesn't they can try and trade him.  His contract next season would be 2yr 4.5M for the acquiring team.  This is pretty much the going rate for a depth corner, and he offers more portential and long-term upside than a 30 year old ronald darby for example (darby got 1yr 1.7M this past year).  We wouldn't see much here other than a pick swap in a trade as his value is cratered though.  

 

We man-match quite a bit though, and we were trying to create some pressure and muddy the reads.  Bail coverage is fine, but he was giving up a ton of space and not closing.  He seems to lack confidence at the moment - he was playing really safe.  

Looks like he may be looking at IR.

 

My guess is we go FA corner(s) for next season.  Probably 2nd tier.  At least they’d have a NFL track record.

[MarkyMannn]

Ankle injury aside, I don't get the Elam effectiveness, or lack of.  His physical ability is great, must be just applying that on the field. Man or zone, and everything else about pass defending, is he incapable of getting it mentally, or poor coaching this guy up? They seem to coach up a lot of other guys though.  

[Paup 1995MVP]

18 hours ago, skibum said:

To all the folks who suggest he be traded - Traded for what??? He's a first round pick who can't get on the field, even when injuries strike. Who is press-boxed in favor of off-the-couch Josh freaking Norman! Who forced his GM to cough up a 3rd rounder to bring in yet another vet at the deadline!

 

How do you wash that kind of stink off? I think they're stuck with him. Either the light bulb goes on, or they cut him in the off-season. Maybe they try to stash him on the practice squad, but it seems like they think he can't play pro ball at all. 

If that's the case (that they think he can't play pro ball at all) then someone needs to be canned for that kind of BS scouting.  He played and started at a big time SEC program.  If they watched his film, they can tell what kind of player he was.  You don't draft guys in the first round randomly, who don't have athletic ability.  

 

I thought he looked solid last year.  And then this season, he isn't dressing to start the year.  And when he did play against the Jags and Giants, he looked like dump (as my daughter fondly likes to say).  Something had to have happened to this kid in the offseason.  We just don't know what it is.  Hard to believe we started Levi Wallace a player of very limited physical ability for 3 years, and won't let Elam a 1st round pick even dress.  Does not make sense.

 

I would not completely write him off just yet.  But someone on the team needs to take him under their wing and teach him the finer points of playing CB at the NFL level.  Hyde and Poyer would be a good start even though they play safety.  

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

22 minutes ago, davefan66 said:

Looks like he may be looking at IR.

 

My guess is we go FA corner(s) for next season.  Probably 2nd tier.  At least they’d have a NFL track record.

 

Depends where tre is at with rehab.  They'd still have Douglas and Benford, plus whatever with Elam.  They'd save about 6M by cutting tre, but you have to factor in how much of that can be spent on another corner.  If you replace him with a draft pick - the majority of that money can be used on another position of need like WR or DE.  If you pay a vet, you're probably looking at less than half of the cap savings.  

 

Also you want to factor in that rehab for achilles is quite a bit shorter than an ACL and he may be back in time for minicamp/training camp.  It's tough to want to trust a player coming off two major injuries over a 3 year period entering his age 29 season.  If he can get back to where he was though, he is so much better than anything you could get with that 6M in savings. 

[balln]

1 minute ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Depends where tre is at with rehab.  They'd still have Douglas and Benford, plus whatever with Elam.  They'd save about 6M by cutting tre, but you have to factor in how much of that can be spent on another corner.  If you replace him with a draft pick - the majority of that money can be used on another position of need like WR or DE.  If you pay a vet, you're probably looking at less than half of the cap savings.  

 

Also you want to factor in that rehab for achilles is quite a bit shorter than an ACL and he may be back in time for minicamp/training camp.  It's tough to want to trust a player coming off two major injuries over a 3 year period entering his age 29 season.  If he can get back to where he was though, he is so much better than anything you could get with that 6M in savings. 

Rehab for Achilles shorter than acl? There’s a diff from rehab and return to play. Especially for elite athlete. They are probably exactly the same / usually Achilles is longer

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 minutes ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

If that's the case (that they think he can't play pro ball at all) then someone needs to be canned for that kind of BS scouting.  He played and started at a big time SEC program.  If they watched his film, they can tell what kind of player he was.  You don't draft guys in the first round randomly, who don't have athletic ability.  

 

I thought he looked solid last year.  And then this season, he isn't dressing to start the year.  And when he did play against the Jags and Giants, he looked like dump (as my daughter fondly likes to say).  Something had to have happened to this kid in the offseason.  We just don't know what it is.  Hard to believe we started Levi Wallace a player of very limited physical ability for 3 years, and won't let Elam a 1st round pick even dress.  Does not make sense.

 

I would not completely write him off just yet.  But someone on the team needs to take him under their wing and teach him the finer points of playing CB at the NFL level.  Hyde and Poyer would be a good start even though they play safety.  

 

I don't think any of our corners have supreme ball skills, and all get hammered on back shoulder looks.  But Benford and Jackson do a better job on shorter stuff keeping it in front of you, wrapping up, and timing catch point disruption.  Elam's not getting his head around at all, he needs to play tighter, but i don't think McD trusts him to do so without getting penalties.  

Just now, balln said:

Rehab for Achilles shorter than acl? There’s a diff from rehab and return to play. Especially for elite athlete. They are probably exactly the same / usually Achilles is longer

 

Akers tore his Achilles 7/20/2021 and was active again on 12/25/2021.  That's considerably shorter than any ACL injuries I've seen for a skill position player.  Closest i can think of is Peterson who tore his ACL/MCL on 12/26/2011 and returned to start 9/9/2012.  

 

Only reason I'd like to see tre back is the likelihood of losing hyde.  Having 2 new faces in the secondary isn't ideal. 

[HappyDays]

Elam has had a bone bruise since the last week of training camp that hasn't quite healed. Beane's comments today about his nagging ankle injury, that's what he is referring to.

[Big Turk]

52 minutes ago, MarkyMannn said:

Ankle injury aside, I don't get the Elam effectiveness, or lack of.  His physical ability is great, must be just applying that on the field. Man or zone, and everything else about pass defending, is he incapable of getting it mentally, or poor coaching this guy up? They seem to coach up a lot of other guys though.  

 

He has been relatively good in zone that's the crazy part.

14 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Elam has had a bone bruise since the last week of training camp that hasn't quite healed. Beane's comments today about his nagging ankle injury, that's what he is referring to.

 

I mean that can't be why he has sucked tho can it?  Maybe that is like 5% of it but if he is out there running around and playing I can't imagine it could be a huge factor...

[The Wiz]

 

[Brian Higgins hair]

Injury possibility aside, I don’t see a trade unless he becomes worth less on the team than his rookie contract would dictate.

I think he stays and works through his rookie deal, and improves.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Brian Higgins hair

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

5 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

 

Wow

[SCBills]

Whoa… ok, if the Bills turned down a 3rd Round Pick for Elam, this curious case of Kaiir Elam becomes even curiouser…

[Maine-iac]

28 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

He has been relatively good in zone that's the crazy part.

 

Or more accurately his PFF grade has been good in zone. Elam finished PFF ranked higher than Benford last season and Benford is starting and Elam isn't even dressing most games so PFF grades must not mean a lot to the coaching staff.  Elam has a lot of physical tools but he still needs to put it together on the field.  Beane's keeping him around must mean something.

[Big Turk]

6 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

Or more accurately his PFF grade has been good in zone. Elam finished PFF ranked higher than Benford last season and Benford is starting and Elam isn't even dressing most games so PFF grades must not mean a lot to the coaching staff.  Elam has a lot of physical tools but he still needs to put it together on the field.  Beane's keeping him around must mean something.

 

No, I am basing that on his play and film breakdown of him in zone.

[Maine-iac]

Just now, Big Turk said:

 

No, I am basing that on his play and film breakdown of him in zone.

My bad ............. guess it was you posting a PFF twitter stat that made me think you were using PFF as a stat.

[Big Turk]

Just now, Maine-iac said:

My bad ............. guess it was you posting a PFF twitter stat that made me think you were using PFF as a stat.

 

I posted it, but go back and watch the Baltimore game from last year and highlights and he was excellent in zone coverage in that game.

[Maine-iac]

I'm not sure being good against Baltimore's passing attack is going to sell me on him.  I didn't actually think he was horrendous against the Jags.  I just thought Ridley was really good.  Then I watched some break downs and realized he did make a lot of mistakes and he was eventually pulled because he wasn't bring runners down.  Now the Baltimore pass catchers are on one end of the spectrum and Ridley another and the answer is probably somewhere in between but either way he's still making a lot of mistakes zone or otherwise.   Maybe it just sticks in my mind more becuase it's his most recent work.

[pocoboy]

If I were Beane & McDermott, I'd want the Bengals thinking they were going to be up against Benford and Jackson. I wouldn't disclose any plans for Douglas, it's not like an injury where there's some "requirement" for disclosure. Don't show them your cards.

[JoPoy88]

15 hours ago, FireChans said:

It’s not a strawman. 
 

You can’t hold two contrary opinions. Elam can’t be “not on the market” and also “available for the right price.”  Lol

Jesus. Once again, I do not know if Elam was on the market or not, no matter the price. I did not adhere to either of those opinions, so I’m not contradicting myself. All I said was there were factors supporting both and the OP’s contention that “Obviously they were trying to trade Elam” was not obvious at all. And if you believe Perrino’s report today, Elam was not on the market or being shopped. He may or may not be right, but it certainly shows nothing about Elam’s standing with Beane and the team was “obvious.”
 

Then you jumped in and presented your literacy level for all here to see, so I’ll leave it at that. 

[JoPoy88]

23 hours ago, JMM said:

Obviously the Bills tried to trade him. Possibly they never got a good offer, but it's just as likely no other team was really interested. Which again confirms to me my opinion, which is that the issues with him go well beyond physical and his " fit" in our scheme. So now what? Inactive the rest of the year? Try to give him one more chance? Most likely he gets traded again after the season.

https://x.com/mattparrino/status/1719802968835309648?s=46&t=rG8S37R56ISI2zmCE2WlYQ

 

appears it wasn’t so obvious after all.

[VW82]

I don't understand how Elam has such a good PFF grade when literally anyone else who grades him based on All 22 says he sucks. He seems to get picked on a lot too which tells you what opposing OCs think of him. 

 

It might be too late to trade him in which case he's a camp cut next year. 

[strive_for_five_guy]

2 minutes ago, VW82 said:

I don't understand how Elam has such a good PFF grade when literally anyone else who grades him based on All 22 says he sucks. He seems to get picked on a lot too which tells you what opposing OCs think of him. 

 

It might be too late to trade him in which case he's a camp cut next year. 

PFF CB grades are indexed off of Sauce Gardner, so to the extent that Elam likes to grab opposing WRs, he gets graded well too.

[JMM]

1 hour ago, JoPoy88 said:

https://x.com/mattparrino/status/1719802968835309648?s=46&t=rG8S37R56ISI2zmCE2WlYQ

 

appears it wasn’t so obvious after all.

Did you listen to the entire presser? I did. I heard a lot of GMSPEAK. Did you expect him to say " yea we looked into trading him but it didn't work out ". Hmm? Do people lie? Sometimes for good reasons? If Beane said today that he believed Santa is real would you believe him. The naivete at times on this board is simply amazing. They did their due diligence and didn't come to terms they liked. If they did he'd be gone. Period.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

4 hours ago, Maine-iac said:

Or more accurately his PFF grade has been good in zone. Elam finished PFF ranked higher than Benford last season and Benford is starting and Elam isn't even dressing most games so PFF grades must not mean a lot to the coaching staff.  Elam has a lot of physical tools but he still needs to put it together on the field.  Beane's keeping him around must mean something.

This coaching staff started Murphy over Lawson. Kept starting him tight up until he was out of the league. This coaching staff let Teller walk. This coaching staff let Nathan Peterman play. 

Why should we have any faith they can judge talent?  

[Simon]

16 minutes ago, JMM said:

Did you listen to the entire presser? I did. I heard a lot of GMSPEAK. Did you expect him to say " yea we looked into trading him but it didn't work out ". Hmm? Do people lie? Sometimes for good reasons? If Beane said today that he believed Santa is real would you believe him. The naivete at times on this board is simply amazing. They did their due diligence and didn't come to terms they liked. If they did he'd be gone. Period.

 

Here, I got you this in case you want to just keep going......

 

[frostbitmic]

It would be to Elam's benefit to learn how to play Special Teams. At least he might get activated on game days.

[BigDingus]

I know this is about what we should do with Elam, but I dislike the narrative that McDermott "doesn't like to play rookies," or that he makes the young guys sit just because he doesn't trust them.

 

Yes, I know Elam isn't a rookie anymore, but many people still seem to think Elam sits inactive because the HC has a thing for vets > young guys.

 

2017: Tre White - Started 16 games (he was the #27th overall pick vs Elam being the #23 overall pick)

          Zay Jones - Started 10 games, played in 15 (79% of offensive snaps)

          Dion Dawkins - Started 11 games 

          Matt Milano - Started 5 games, played in 16

          Nate "The Goat" Peterman - Started 2 games (unfortuantely), played in 4

 

 

2018: Josh Allen - Started 11 games, played in 12 (missed games due to injury)

          Tremaine Edmunds - Started 15 games 

          Taron Johnson - Started 2 games, played in 11 (another CB, 4th round pick, 57% of defensive snaps)

          Wyatt Teller - Started 7 games, played in 8 (5th round G, now consistent starter in Cleveland)

 

 

2019: Ed Oliver - Started 7 games, played in 16 (54% of defensive snaps)

          Cody Ford - Started 15 games

          Devin Singletary - Started 8 games, played in 12 (67% of offensive snaps)

          Dawson Knox - Started 11 games, played in 15 

 

 

2020: AJ Epenesa - Only started 1 game, played in 14 (only 31% of defensive snaps)

           Zack Moss - Started 0 games, played in 13 (45% of offensive snaps)

           Gabe Davis - Started 11 games, played in 16 

           Tyler Bass - Started 16 games, kinda 😆

           Dane Jackson - Started 2 games, played in 5 (another CB, 7th round pick, worked his way into a lot more play time)

 

 

2021: Greg Rousseau - Started 16 games

          Spencer Brown - Started 10 games, played in 13

 

 

2022: Kaiir Elam - Started 6 games, played in 13 (57% of defensive snaps)

           Khalil Shakir - Started 2 games, played in 14 

           Christian Benford - Started 5 games, played in 9 (6th round CB, injured/inactive for 7 games, 62% of defensive snaps when available)

 

 

2023: Dalton Kincaid - Started/listed as a starter in 5 of 7 available games (63% of offensive snaps)

           O'Cyrus Torrence - Started all 8 games

           Dorian Williams - Started 2 games

           

 

So after looking through this objectively, it seems pretty clear our first round picks play EXTENSIVELY. In 2020, there was no 1st rounder, and the best value came later in the draft. 

 

But it's clear Elam is the odd man out here. It's not a "McDermott doesn't like to play rookies" thing, it's a "he doesn't like what he sees from Elam" thing. However, you can also see the early years of building through the draft, as opposed to more recent years & less need for immediate help via draft picks. So while it's more difficult for a rookie to see as much play time now compared to the past, you also see late round picks (including other CBs) seeing their play time increase.

 

Either way, the one constant is that the 1st round picks are drafted with the intent to see the field immediately & be the starters. Elam failed that. Unfortunately, I think the best time to trade him would've been before the deadline. Teams in the hunt may be more eager to find help midseason rather than when they have all the time in the world in the offseason.

[Punching Bag]

8 hours ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

I would not completely write him off just yet.  But someone on the team needs to take him under their wing and teach him the finer points of playing CB at the NFL level.  Hyde and Poyer would be a good start even though they play safety.  

 

Both Hyde and Poyer used to be CBs.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Limeaid
typo

[Maine-iac]

22 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

Both Hyde and Poyer used to be safeties.

.............. I know you meant to say CB.

[BRH]

4 hours ago, JoPoy88 said:

https://x.com/mattparrino/status/1719802968835309648?s=46&t=rG8S37R56ISI2zmCE2WlYQ

 

appears it wasn’t so obvious after all.

And why exactly would Beane tell anyone he tried to trade him?  What does that do for the team?

[Billsatlastin2018]

On 10/31/2023 at 5:49 PM, TFBillsfan said:

He keeps working to get better. The physical traits are there but gotta translate that on the field when given some opportunities. 

Nice.

 

But, if he can’t play football worth a lick, nobody gives a shite!

[JoPoy88]

3 hours ago, JMM said:

Did you listen to the entire presser? I did. I heard a lot of GMSPEAK. Did you expect him to say " yea we looked into trading him but it didn't work out ". Hmm? Do people lie? Sometimes for good reasons? If Beane said today that he believed Santa is real would you believe him. The naivete at times on this board is simply amazing. They did their due diligence and didn't come to terms they liked. If they did he'd be gone. Period.

Not gonna get all involved in whatever head canon is going on inside your brain. Yeah sure, I’m naive. Just going off what the guy said chief. He’s known as one of the more upfront GMs in the league.
 

Meanwhile your mind has been made up long before this trade deadline came and went, even though you have NO IDEA, no real information about what went down behind the scenes on those calls.  

Just now, JoPoy88 said:

Not gonna get all involved in whatever head canon is going on inside your brain. Yeah sure, I’m naive. Just going off what the guy said chief. He’s known as one of the more upfront GMs in the league.
 

Meanwhile your mind has been made up long before this trade deadline came and went, even though you have NO IDEA, no real information about what went down behind the scenes on those calls.  

 

2 hours ago, Simon said:

 

Here, I got you this in case you want to just keep going......

 

🍻