The Official Fire Ken Dorsey Thread

[MAJBobby]

Just now, HoofHearted said:

It matters to me not if you wish to continue to be ignorant and uninformed...

It matters To me not if you wish to make claims and not back them. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

If he was he should have let it fly. Gabe was open. 

 

That’s the thing I’m talking about. A nice touch throw to the back pylon there. Gabe’s one of the faster guys on the field once he’s running. And could’ve let it go earlier.

 

that still is missing from his game. 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

16 minutes ago, VaMilBill said:

You promote Joe Brady and see what he can do as OC. You’re not changing up the offense this season, simply adding some new wrinkles and a different mind calling plays. 
 

if Joe Brady struggles, then we need to hire another OC.  

What do you consider struggling? Having a bad game or a bad season? What’s considered a bad season?

 

I use to use regular stats, but Dorsey has great regular stats. Then I started using advanced analytics, but dang it Dorsey has great advanced analytics.

 

I guess I’ll go by pure emotion. That’s the best way.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

That’s the thing I’m talking about. A nice touch throw to the back pylon there. Gabe’s one of the faster guys on the field once he’s running. And could’ve let it go earlier.

 

that still is missing from his game. 

 

I think the Late flash from the safety scared the throw off. That is the coaching handcuffs we are seeing in Josh. Same with taking the designed run out of the offense. 
 

end result struggles in red zone everything gets so hard for this offense down there. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

4 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

I'm not a Dorsey fan but if we fire him midseason, I'm afraid the alternative will be no better and possibly worse.  

 

I'm not opposed to McD checking out who's available after the season, though.  

I think the best you can expect in season is for the HC to hold the OC and the players accountable, call together a session with the, OC, Josh, and the other leaders on the offense to have an open and honest discussion about what needs to be done to re-charge the offense.  Using analytics identify which plays are working and not, get rid of the plays that aren't working, run more of what's working, and design some variation off what is working.    

[Chas56]

13 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I think the best you can expect in season is for the HC to hold the OC and the players accountable, call together a session with the, OC, Josh, and the other leaders on the offense to have an open and honest discussion about what needs to be done to re-charge the offense.  Using analytics identify which plays are working and not, get rid of the plays that aren't working, run more of what's working, and design some variation of what is working.    

Not New News Flash: the shotgun handoff to Cook is not working.

[Logic]

I thought Dorsey's playcalling left something to be desired both of the past two weeks. I, too, was frustrated by the pistol call at the 5-inch line.

That said...

The Bills are the 3rd ranked scoring offense in the NFL. They are behind only the Dolphins and 49ers, who most would acknowledge as the clear cut two best and most forward thinking offenses in the league. They are ahead of last year's Super Bowl participants, the Chiefs and Eagles. 

You don't fire an offensive coordinator who had the 2nd ranked scoring offense in his first year and has the 3rd ranked scoring offense in his second year. It's just asinine. It's reactionary "prisoner of the moment" stuff. It's not reasonable.

Aside from the fact that the Bills, ya know, score a lot of points....Josh Allen endorsed Ken Dorsey, he likes Ken Dorsey, and and he wants Ken Dorsey as his OC. He's not going anywhere. 

You want to espouse and suggest specific changes to personnel usage, formations, or offensive strategy, then by all means, do so. I've got some suggestions myself, and there are areas where Dorsey can clearly improve. But firing him? That ain't it. Not happenin'. Ridiculous.

[Juice_32]

16 hours ago, 1ManRaid said:

I would literally give my left nut to never see another freaking shotgun draw.

 

I am 100% with you on this. Its literally a throwaway play every...single...time. It all but guarantees a 3rd and long.

[TwistofFate]

What it looks like to me is when we face good D coordinators, our offense is completely inept and Dorsey has no answers for in game adjustments.  It literally looks like he keeps calling whatever game plan was engineered and expecting the situation to change. 

 

We all know the offense is capable of explosion but when the camera view is from behind Josh in the pocket you can see there is nobody open and the defense was perfectly called. 

 

I've lost all faith in Dorsey. How many mediocre games is this guy going to call.  I can tell you this much against better coaching and talent in the playoffs we are done. 

[Buckets]

16 hours ago, Simon said:

 

He needs to stop letting defensive sets dictate to him and just call the diversified offense that we've seen him be perfectly capable of calling.

If he stops outthinking himself, he'll probably be OK.

I bet a straightforward meeting with the head coach this week will get that message across very clearly.

I know Davis and Knox dropped passes but before we crap all over them, remember, Digs dropped the first pass attempt of the. Game 

[syhuang]

 

[jlgarsh]

16 hours ago, buffblue said:

I would give both. It's like the 2013 Nate Hackett offense reincarnated 

At least that Offense was hampered by QB play. This is worse than 2013

[HappyDays]

Here's McDermott verbatim from his presser just now (from Matt Parrino):

 

Quote

Sean McDermott was asked whether he'd give any consideration to having anyone else on the offensive coaching staff take over playcalling duties from Ken Dorsey.

McDermott's response: "Zero."

"I'm confident in Ken Dorsey and our offensive staff. There's a lot that goes into it and putting the game plan together and calling plays and putting the players in position - I get it. But it's not just one area. It's when in position, are you making the play? So there's a lot that goes into this and we've done some things well offensively this year. Of late, we've been certainly too inconsistent and that's what we have to look at here."

 

Quote

I asked Sean why they've struggled to find a consistent third option in the offense. Stefon Diggs is on pace for a career-high 187 targets. Here's McDermott's response:

"I think that's really some of the deep dive we're digging through now is where's the second target, where's the third targeted player and who is it and how can we get them more touches or how can we get them open more? Stef is off to a good start. I think the rapport with Josh has been certainly obvious and noticeable by all. Now it's, Hey, who's resource two, and who's resource three? And we've got to continue to evolve offensively with that."

 

AKA Dorsey isn't to blame and we don't have a true #2 pass catcher.

 

I'm shocked if McDermott really doesn't see any issues with Dorsey's play calling last night, but who knows.

[billsfan89]

I don't really see a play-caller change making that much of a difference mid-season. Is Joe Brady going to call that much better of a game given that the offense cannot be changed all that much mid-season? They can't overhaul the playbook and terminology mid-season. Joe Brady running the Daboll/Dorsey offense (many players said last season the offense hasn't changed that much from the offense Daboll built) isn't going to result in that much difference. 

 

I am not a Dorsey apologist but I think you have to be realistic about what you going to do offensively. The Bills aren't likely to bring in major talent pieces via trade and they aren't going to install a new offense. The best thing fans can do is hope Dorsey works out the kinks in October and November. 

[billsfan89]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

Here's McDermott verbatim from his presser just now (from Matt Parrino):

 

 

 

AKA Dorsey isn't to blame and we don't have a true #2 pass catcher.

 

I'm shocked if McDermott really doesn't see any issues with Dorsey's play calling last night, but who knows.

 

As far as the Giants game Dorsey did adjust to leaning on the power run game in the second half. They had three drives in the second half and they scored TD's and missed a field goal on those drives. They basically ran the ball down the Giants' throats in two long-game eating drives. The issue was the first half. And my issue with Dorsey was that by the time the Bills got the ball early in Q2 they didn't try to lean back into the run. The offense had produced two punts and a fumble why not adjust the offensive game plan then? 

 

Dorsey adjusts but he adjusts way too late. Q1 should be your testing out and feeling out of the game. You should start to make adjustments to your gameplan after your first 2-3 drives. Drosey often waits until 5-7 drives in to really change up the gameplan if it isn't working. 

[hondo in seattle]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I think the best you can expect in season is for the HC to hold the OC and the players accountable, call together a session with the, OC, Josh, and the other leaders on the offense to have an open and honest discussion about what needs to be done to re-charge the offense.  Using analytics identify which plays are working and not, get rid of the plays that aren't working, run more of what's working, and design some variation off what is working.    

 

When you look at Dorsey's offensive stats, they're not terrible.  But we've all seen games when Dorsey's lack of imagination in both play design and play calling was suboptimal.  Sad to say, I don't have as much faith in Dorsey-Allen as I do in Reid-Mahomes.  Reid, generally speaking, designs and calls plays that put Mahomes in a position to excel and keep defenses on their toes.  

 

You're right: McD needs to step in and help Dorsey find his shortcomings and fix them.  

[Jerome007]

I'm not exactly thrilled with what we saw last two games ha ha, but give credit where it's due: that Harty touchdown was 100% Dorsey. Great design, setup, time to use it. It was a HUGE risk too. One defender not biting on it and it would have backfired. 

 

He stuck to the run in the 2nd half. 

[Old Coot]

Moderator: Please merge this thread with the "Fire Daboll" thread of yesteryear.

[Low Positive]

18 minutes ago, Old Coot said:

Moderator: Please merge this thread with the "Fire Daboll" thread of yesteryear.

How about this one, started on the Saturday before the 2020 season: 

 

 

[BB squared]

I can’t wait to hear Dorsey is gone.  The Bills should run a west coast offense instead of 15 yard attempts to Diggs every single down.  Sweeps, screens, 5 yard passes to backs and tight ends.

 

 

 

[run and shoot 4life]

Ken Dorsey has to be fired immediately! You can see the frustration on Josh Allen's face and Diggs the meeting this off season was about Ken Dorsey being the OC he is terrible no change or creativity has two of the best tight ends in the game and can't get them the ball...James Cook is showing he is a great RB and having one of the best dynamic duo at wide receiver Diggs and Davis come on man no excuses FIRE DORSEY 

[ganesh]

5 hours ago, Logic said:

I thought Dorsey's playcalling left something to be desired both of the past two weeks. I, too, was frustrated by the pistol call at the 5-inch line.

That said...

The Bills are the 3rd ranked scoring offense in the NFL. They are behind only the Dolphins and 49ers, who most would acknowledge as the clear cut two best and most forward thinking offenses in the league. They are ahead of last year's Super Bowl participants, the Chiefs and Eagles. 

You don't fire an offensive coordinator who had the 2nd ranked scoring offense in his first year and has the 3rd ranked scoring offense in his second year. It's just asinine. It's reactionary "prisoner of the moment" stuff. It's not reasonable.

Aside from the fact that the Bills, ya know, score a lot of points....Josh Allen endorsed Ken Dorsey, he likes Ken Dorsey, and and he wants Ken Dorsey as his OC. He's not going anywhere. 

You want to espouse and suggest specific changes to personnel usage, formations, or offensive strategy, then by all means, do so. I've got some suggestions myself, and there are areas where Dorsey can clearly improve. But firing him? That ain't it. Not happenin'. Ridiculous.

100% agree.

However, it is the big moments where Dorsey has left things on the table.  That is the difference between a guy who cam dominate with the QB that has been given to him

[HappyDays]

7 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Perfect example. 

 

It's such a perfect example that it's the only one people are using. Most of the plays where Allen holds the ball it is because no one is separating. Here he probably should have moved on from Diggs, but it's one play. One play doesn't tell a story.

 

7 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Diggs is always the first read if Allen sees man coverage. That's Allen doing his own thing.

 

Correct. And logically it's the right choice. If the defense is in man, the best matchup 100% of the time is Diggs versus whoever he's up against. It doesn't matter if that CB is a top 5 CB and Davis's CB is middle of the road, you still trust Diggs in that matchup first.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by HappyDays

[HoofHearted]

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Correct. And logically it's the right choice. If the defense is in man, the best matchup 100% of the time is Diggs versus whoever he's up against. It doesn't matter if that CB is a top 5 CB and Davis's CB is middle of the road, you still trust Diggs in that matchup first.

 

There’s no doubt about that! Take that matchup every day.

[HappyDays]

7 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Yeah no trust me bro doesn’t work. 
 

back your claim that Allen is going off script. Where is the hold package Mr progressional. Ooo wait others also do this a long time professionally. 
 

Heck everyone makes educated guesses in every profession. That is much different than your claim. 

 

Allen isn't going off script. It is built into the offense that if it is man coverage throw the ball to Diggs. It's incredibly obvious in a game like yesterday where the Giants showed man coverage a ton - it wasn't a coincidence that Diggs got an absurdly high target share. There are probably times where Alle waits a tick too long to move on if Diggs isn't getting separation, but that is a function of our offense, arguably THE function of every offense - get your best pass catcher involved early and often.

 

6 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

So again you have proof Dorsey tell Josh hey in man coverage do whatever you want? Ignore the design of the route concepts 

 

The proof is in the film. He looks to Diggs first almost every single time it is obvious man coverage. Why wouldn't he? He's literally just picking out the most likely person to catch the ball.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by HappyDays

[Warcodered]

5 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

I don't really see a play-caller change making that much of a difference mid-season. Is Joe Brady going to call that much better of a game given that the offense cannot be changed all that much mid-season? They can't overhaul the playbook and terminology mid-season. Joe Brady running the Daboll/Dorsey offense (many players said last season the offense hasn't changed that much from the offense Daboll built) isn't going to result in that much difference. 

 

I am not a Dorsey apologist but I think you have to be realistic about what you going to do offensively. The Bills aren't likely to bring in major talent pieces via trade and they aren't going to install a new offense. The best thing fans can do is hope Dorsey works out the kinks in October and November. 

If they actually do end giving someone else the play calling responsibilities they'll probably give Dorsey to the mini-bye to try and get right, that way the new caller has the extra time to get ready. Otherwise next would be the bye.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Warcodered

[DapperCam]

I kind of think Dorsey stinks, but I also think switching to Joe Brady in the middle of the season will accomplish pretty much nothing.

The entire offense needs overhauled, and that will require interviewing a bunch of candidates and an offseason to install.

[FireChans]

6 hours ago, Logic said:

I thought Dorsey's playcalling left something to be desired both of the past two weeks. I, too, was frustrated by the pistol call at the 5-inch line.

That said...

The Bills are the 3rd ranked scoring offense in the NFL. They are behind only the Dolphins and 49ers, who most would acknowledge as the clear cut two best and most forward thinking offenses in the league. They are ahead of last year's Super Bowl participants, the Chiefs and Eagles. 

You don't fire an offensive coordinator who had the 2nd ranked scoring offense in his first year and has the 3rd ranked scoring offense in his second year. It's just asinine. It's reactionary "prisoner of the moment" stuff. It's not reasonable.

Aside from the fact that the Bills, ya know, score a lot of points....Josh Allen endorsed Ken Dorsey, he likes Ken Dorsey, and and he wants Ken Dorsey as his OC. He's not going anywhere. 

You want to espouse and suggest specific changes to personnel usage, formations, or offensive strategy, then by all means, do so. I've got some suggestions myself, and there are areas where Dorsey can clearly improve. But firing him? That ain't it. Not happenin'. Ridiculous.

If ranking matters that much, why is the phone not ringing off the hook for Kenny to become an HC?

 

I mean, Daboll oversaw 1 top ranked year and was getting HC buzz. After his second year, he was the talk of the town.

 

Why does no one want Kenny?  Is it because folks around the league see him doing less with more when he has a top 3 QB and aren't impressed with whatever the dumb stats say?

Edited October 17, 2023 by FireChans

[Franco_92]

 

SMH dorsey ruining Josh Allen all the way to the top of the league

[Draconator]

This is not an official thread. 

 

Next

[Scott7975]

14 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

This is a reason why I don’t hate on Dorsey.

 

 

 

 

Well two things.  One, Diggs is the first read.  Second, he isn't throwing over there with a defender in his face and a linemen on his right hip.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Scott7975

[Scott7975]

13 hours ago, Success said:

Shotgun on the half yard line.

 

I repeat:  shotgun on the half yard line.

 

 

Worse.  It was pistol formation putting the back behind the QB. Just lol.

[Scott7975]

13 hours ago, Peter said:

Why NFL Coaches Use Shotgun at Goal Line

 

For those of you who are incredulous that an NFL offensive coordinator might use shotgun at the goal line:

 

TD rates

 

PLAY SNAPS TD%

 

Shotgun QB rush 62 71.0%

 

Under center QB rush 215 68.4%

 

Shotgun RB rush 328 56.7%

 

Under center RB rush 1640 54.6%

 

So stats pulled from an article I can't read but it was about the Chicago Bears with Justin Fields offense.  Good model lol.  Also stat show 17% of the time.  Pretty low amount.  I'm sure there is a reason for that.  Probably because when you are at the half yardline its not a good idea to hand the ball off from pistol formation 6+ yards back.  Especially when your QB is almost automatic in that situation.  Dorsey was trying to get cute and it was a bad call.  If they got a TD off that play I still would have said it was a bad call.

 

[DrDawkinstein]

11 hours ago, pocoboy said:

 

What you hope is that Allen isn't feeding Diggs specifically to keep him happy.

 

That isnt what is happening.

 

11 hours ago, pocoboy said:

 

Diggs is gonna have to grow up at some point.

 

Folks really need to stop with this toxic narrative.

[Scott7975]

12 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

So by your own words that catch is made once a week amongst 32 teams but Knox has to make it every time or it’s the ice floe?  By contrast any criticism of the 17th rail is wrong before it starts?

 

Clearly the Bills need Josh.  He actually had a mostly good game yesterday but pinning that throw on Knox is just flat out irrational hero worship.

 

It's not once a week.  Receivers make hard catches all the time across every game.  Receivers aren't just paid to catch balls thrown to their chest. They are paid to make difficult catches as well.  Could the pass have been better?  Of course, but these receivers are paid and expected to catch the ones not perfect.  You don't watch enough football if you think that pass shouldn't have been caught.

 

 

This pass was thrown low and way behind Kelce.  IOW Kelce was running away from this pass towards the left sideline.  Thats why you see that big patch of turf in the air from his slide to catch it.  This is what good receivers do every game.  They catch the not perfect pass.

 

 

Just now, Scott7975 said:

 

It's not once a week.  Receivers make hard catches all the time across every game.  Receivers aren't just paid to catch balls thrown to their chest. They are paid to make difficult catches as well.  Could the pass have been better?  Of course, but these receivers are paid and expected to catch the ones not perfect.  You don't watch enough football if you think that pass shouldn't have been caught.

 

 

This pass was thrown low and way behind Kelce.  IOW Kelce was running away from this pass towards the left sideline.  Thats why you see that big patch of turf in the air from his slide to catch it.  This is what good receivers do every game.  They catch the not perfect pass.

 

 

 

Because of files size limits on this board I have to continue this in another post...

 

This is from the Jets game as I dont have a screen shot from last night but all 3 plays are similar.  This is what Knox does...

 

 

He drops the damn football.

[Beck Water]

So there you have it, folks.

[Doc Brown]

3 hours ago, DapperCam said:

I kind of think Dorsey stinks, but I also think switching to Joe Brady in the middle of the season will accomplish pretty much nothing.

The entire offense needs overhauled, and that will require interviewing a bunch of candidates and an offseason to install.

We're objectively the third best offense in the league and the entire offense needs to be overhauled?  Talk about recency bias.

 

[DapperCam]

1 minute ago, Doc Brown said:

We're objectively the third best offense in the league and the entire offense needs to be overhauled?  Talk about recency bias.

 

I think that is 90% Diggs and Allen (along with an improved interior o-line). I think another offensive coordinator could have the offense performing even better (and more consistently).

[Scott7975]

12 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Like is Diggs always the first read and everything comes off that?

 

Yes.  Josh said that in a lot of their passing concepts that Diggs is the first read.

[DrDawkinstein]

10 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Yeah no trust me bro doesn’t work. 
 

back your claim that Allen is going off script. Where is the hold package Mr progressional. Ooo wait others also do this a long time professionally. 
 

Heck everyone makes educated guesses in every profession. That is much different than your claim. 

 

10 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

So again you have proof Dorsey tell Josh hey in man coverage do whatever you want? Ignore the design of the route concepts 

 

Allen talked about the concepts they run and the looks they were getting made Diggs the first read, and he is usually open in those reads.

 

It's not "off script", it's that the script is long and complicated and gives the players lots of different options every play.

 

Not that crazy of a concept.