Silver linings with the Injuries?

[Boatdrinks]

1 hour ago, stevestojan said:

All bull#### aside, I reallllly want to agree with the part that “Elam cannot possibly be this bad.” 
 

I mean there are draft busts, but at the corner position you need speed and ball awareness. Seems like those are fairly (in the grand scheme) easy to identify how they would translate from college to pro. I’m not saying everyone will be the next Rod Woodson, but my god, he literally looks like he played the position in JV and he’s our 11th option at his position; playing emergency CB. 
 

I’d argue “maybe he’s been hurt and the team is hiding it” but no. 
 

Maybe it’s the NFL version of the yips? But those generally come after you’ve done anything really well. 
 

I can’t think of a worse first round pick right now. Williams? Losman maybe? 

Plenty of very good to great College players flame out in the pros. It happens. Sucks when it’s our team , but Elam may be one who just never “ gets it”. They can’t give him too many chances if the results are similar to last Sunday’s. The season will be off the rails in a hurry. 

[Punching Bag]

5 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Plenty of very good to great College players flame out in the pros. It happens. Sucks when it’s our team , but Elam may be one who just never “ gets it”. They can’t give him too many chances if the results are similar to last Sunday’s. The season will be off the rails in a hurry. 

 

Perhaps he just does not fit with Bills and somewhere out there is a player on another team who does not fit for them.

Bills should look for another player to swap with and give both of them a new chance.

Bills have done this in past.  

And no I do not know who the player is for I am not a NFL scout.

[Boatdrinks]

1 minute ago, Limeaid said:

 

Perhaps he just does not fit with Bills and somewhere out there is a player on another team who does not fit for them.

Bills should look for another player to swap with and give both of them a new chance.

Bills have done this in past.  

And no I do not know who the player is for I am not a NFL scout.

Maybe, but those types of deals are rare at the deadline. If the Bills are able to make a trade for a CB or WR it will likely involve draft picks. Swapping contracts is difficult in season. 

[SMAKCruiser]

1 hour ago, stevestojan said:

All bull#### aside, I reallllly want to agree with the part that “Elam cannot possibly be this bad.” 
 

I mean there are draft busts, but at the corner position you need speed and ball awareness. Seems like those are fairly (in the grand scheme) easy to identify how they would translate from college to pro. I’m not saying everyone will be the next Rod Woodson, but my god, he literally looks like he played the position in JV and he’s our 11th option at his position; playing emergency CB. 
 

I’d argue “maybe he’s been hurt and the team is hiding it” but no. 
 

Maybe it’s the NFL version of the yips? But those generally come after you’ve done anything really well. 
 

I can’t think of a worse first round pick right now. Williams? Losman maybe? 

You forget Bills history very quickly....   Maybin, McCargo, Flowers were worse than Elam.

[BananaB]

2 hours ago, whorlnut said:

It’s time for people to accept that Elam CAN be “that bad”. He had a chance to prove himself and he sucked. 

But he played better last year so to say he can’t after one game this season is crazy. Kid had a hard task and coaching really didn’t help. I myself think McD don’t like him and is trying to make a point to bring in one of his guys. Why not Dane on Ridley? Why not switch during the game when Lawrence and Ridley started picking on him and you could see him struggle…. To be honest Dane was picked on until Zay went down, so if he was lined up against Ridley like that he’d probably be toast too. 

[34-78-83]

3 minutes ago, BananaB said:

But he played better last year so to say he can’t after one game this season is crazy. Kid had a hard task and coaching really didn’t help. I myself think McD don’t like him and is trying to make a point to bring in one of his guys. Why not Dane on Ridley? Why not switch during the game when Lawrence and Ridley started picking on him and you could see him struggle…. To be honest Dane was picked on until Zay went down, so if he was lined up against Ridley like that he’d probably be toast too. 

the "McD don't like him" is pretty ridiculous but agree w/ everything else you said there. And no doubt, Ridley is a top route runner comparable to our own Diggs.

[BananaB]

4 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

the "McD don't like him" is pretty ridiculous but agree w/ everything else you said there. And no doubt, Ridley is a top route runner comparable to our own Diggs.

Definitely something up. Elams confidence probably shot at this point.  He’s got no trade value. Coaches have zero confidence in him so his chance here to succeed will probably never happen. 

[skibum]

Great thread, I appreciate the sentiment. I am not very optimistic about Poona Ford, however. Was supposed to be in the mix for a starting job when signed, and has not seen the field yet. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

Tre injury will be ok once benford returns…also once we get all our pass rushers back I think a lot of the back end coverage issues will get covered up.  
 

poona could be an ok replacement for jones although there’s admittedly a dropoff there.  The Milano injury hurts though 

 

it’s crazy how many guys had short term injuries too against the jags though.  It’s honestly kind of embarrassing they only scored 25?  Haha idk if it’s too soon to be saying things like that.  That was pretty much a preseason let’s see what we’ve got in our third string type defense

 

i think the best silver lining is you need guys that can make impact plays and get a couple stops against the chiefs of the league so as long as the offense is intact and you’ve got a couple of those types of defensive players there’s always a chance. We’ve still got those type of players on the defensive line 

 

look at kc they’ve had pretty much one impact player on defense in their Super Bowl runs and he made a big play every time they needed one. 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[nedboy7]

I’m gonna chose to stay depressed. I don’t see any positives to this mess. But I like the attitude!  Definitely think Elam will turn it around however. 

[DapperCam]

I get the sentiment. We can have a “development year” on defense while still being a darned good team.

 

Jackson, Benford and Johnson are an okay CB trio. As long as they can stay healthy, our backend should be okay. I’m sure Elam will be getting some more opportunities too.

 

Jones doesn’t really have a replacement on the roster, but let’s see what Oliver can do with more on his plate.

 

Dorian Williams and Bernard will be getting the baptism by fire treatment.

 

The sad part is this felt like a potential Super Bowl year, and now it feels more like a “make the playoffs and hope for the best” year.

[Billsfan1972]

Bills fans and team have more excuses if they don't win the SB????😉

[BarleyNY]

2 hours ago, KDIGGZ said:

Elam is terrible. He got used to using his hands and grabbing people and that's a flag in the NFL so now he's having trouble finding the receiver with his eyes instead of his hands. He has no "feel" for the game without feeling!

 

College CBs who are grabby are always concerning when making the jump to the NFL, but Elam did a lot of his grabbing at the top of the receivers’ routes. That is often a sign of something much worse. CBs who can’t stay with WRs as they juke and make their initial breaks (at the top of their routes) will often grab them so they can stay with them. That was one of my fears with Elam pre-draft - and it remains so. 

[BRH]

Perhaps there is the possibility that with a full week of first-team practice reps, no bull#### travel, and (for some) first-game jitters out of the way, players like Williams, Elam, and Settle will be better than they showed in London.  And Ford may fit into that group as well.  Then you have Benford and Rousseau coming back and Von ramping up.

 

Not ready to throw in the towel.  Check back with me if we lose to the Giants, though.

[LABILLBACKER]

4 hours ago, Process said:

We still have one of the best d lines in the league. 

 

The secondary is what concerns me. 

 

Hyde and Poyer are slow and washed up. That gets masked with a dominant front 7. I'm not sure we have that anymore.

 

And we have ZERO CB depth. As of right now we are one injury away (Benford) from having Micah Hyde covering a teams best WR on the most critical play of the game. 

I agree both our safeties are done. Was hoping Rapp would be a little more dynamic.  Who knows how much Hamlin plays, if at all?  We will definitely need all 4 of our top pass rushers healthy and firing on all cylinders soon.  Bernard & Williams will be trial by fire w/o Milano. 

[Warriorspikes51]

3 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I agree both our safeties are done. Was hoping Rapp would be a little more dynamic.  Who knows how much Hamlin plays, if at all?  We will definitely need all 4 of our top pass rushers healthy and firing on all cylinders soon.  Bernard & Williams will be trial by fire w/o Milano. 

 

Disgaree. Hyde already has 2 INT's and is getting back to himself

Poyer does look a bit slow, I think he has a deep bruise in his knee.  Hopefully he gets better 

[PBF81]

5 hours ago, BuffaloBaumer said:

The more and more I am listening to the experts, the more our depth is looking like they just might be ok in the end. Whether that is this year, or next year, the future looks pretty darn bright for a youth movement. With Rousseau out, and Von barely playing, AJ stepped into the spotlight bigtime. THis Jonathan kid is also getting really good reviews and could end up being a steal on the edge. 

 

The loss of Jones is a massive one in every way but let's see what Ford can do on the run stuffing game. Ed Oliver has broken through and the Oline is better than we thought when the season began. As long as Benford can come back, and there are no more injuries at that position, the pass rush should offset the hit the secondary took. 

 

It will be interesting to see how Bernard does without Milano so that is a big question mark. Can Dodson step up into a major role? Hopefully Von can get back to 100% by the time the playoffs start and if that happens, the defense should be just fine. If Buffalo has to take a wild card and go on the road for a game, so be it. I think they are still taking the division and the next 3 games will be perfect to get the newbies settled. 

 

Lastly, Elam cannot possibly be this bad, he just can't. They threw him into a no win situation and that was a bad coaching decision. I would start him again vs the Giants and put him on a very short leash. Get him some confidence and hopefully Buffalo gets a big lead and does not have to worry about it. 

 

There's also no guarantee that they'd have kept on playing to that level though either.  There's no history of it in many seasons insofar as Oliver and Jones go.  

 

We have a history of starting the season strong but then fading generally speaking, at least relative to our early games. 

 

Let's not forget last season where after a half-dozen games everyone had us winning the Super Bowl.  People went bananas after our first two games against the Rams and Tennessee.  

 

Agree with you though that it's not going to be as tragic as so many are making it out to be.  

 

And it's not as if we've played perfectly through five games either.  Our running D blows, which explains why our total yardage D ranks higher than it probably should.  But we currently rank 25th in rushing yards allowed and 31st in Yards-per-Carry allowed.  

 

As pointed out, the three games we've won were largely dependent upon +2, +3, and +4 TO margins.  If we have to rely on a 2+ or greater TO margin to win games, it may not end well.  

 

 

25 minutes ago, BRH said:

Not ready to throw in the towel.  Check back with me if we lose to the Giants, though.

 

Say what?  

 

I mean if we should be able to beat the Giants with Kyle Allen playing ... 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by PBF81

[gjv]

I was buying the hype that Poona Ford was a steal in Free Agency. Very disappointed that he could not earn a jersey on game day. Hopefully, he can be a lot more than a body on the D-line rotation.

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

The sad part is I actually really liked seeing Williams out there. Guy is like a loaded gun flying all around. Of course he was benched and now you just assume we play 25. Id much rather take my chances with a freak athlete flying around there trying to figure it out, then an underwhelming veteran that we already know can’t play. Give me the speed and intensity of 42/43 out there and I’ll live with the growing pains.

[Mr. WEO]

6 hours ago, MJS said:

It wasn't a bad coaching decision. Throw him to the wolves and let him scratch and claw his way to victory.

 

You don't get babysat in the NFL. You are facing supreme talents week in and week out. Either you rise up to the challenge, or you don't.

 

Leadership and coaching is key. They have to build him up, show confidence in him, and help him move on from mistakes, all while reinforcing technique and scheme.

 

Elam is talented. He can do it. Don't give him a short leash. Give him a LONG leash. Get him experience now so that he can be proficient later in the year and in the playoffs.

Do you think the staff think he is hopeless and a lost cause? I highly doubt it.

 

That really doesn't matter regarding guy question. They know what they know about this kid. I'm sure they are doing what they can--why would anyone believe otherwise?  

 

But  I'm pretty sure Joe Marino doesn't know what is "correctable" and what isn't for Elam.  How could he possibly know?  

[MJS]

11 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

That really doesn't matter regarding guy question. They know what they know about this kid. I'm sure they are doing what they can--why would anyone believe otherwise?  

 

But  I'm pretty sure Joe Marino doesn't know what is "correctable" and what isn't for Elam.  How could he possibly know?  

Because he watches film and has a lot of scouting experience and saw things that he can improve on.

 

I know he is more qualified than me to know. I don't watch film. Most of what Marino says makes sense to me. If you don't like what he has to say, that's your choice.  But I trust him way more than I trust you.

[Joe Ferguson]

Not worried about our D. We all it's going to stink. As long as Josh Allen is still playing, we have a shot to win it all. Mahomes won two Super Bowls with a putrid defense. So let our opponents score as much as they can but in the end the Bills will score more.

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

 

Disgaree. Hyde already has 2 INT's and is getting back to himself

Poyer does look a bit slow, I think he has a deep bruise in his knee.  Hopefully he gets better 

Micah is playing better and Poyer will be the first safety gone. But Micah (as much as I love Hyde) is not too far behind Jordan.  Aside from RT/WR,  DB's will be emphasized next year come draft time.

[MasterStrategist]

12 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Micah is playing better and Poyer will be the first safety gone. But Micah (as much as I love Hyde) is not too far behind Jordan.  Aside from RT/WR,  DB's will be emphasized next year come draft time.

Exactly.

 

Next year will likely see 3 new starters in the secondary and some "new depth" guys.  

 

Both safeties, cut Tre/sign a zone Cb2 to likely pair with Benford.  Dane, Poyer, Micah, 1 and done for Rapp.  Hamlin, Lewis, Neal will also be on the bubble.  Bonus will be Elam actually developing this year, and growing into a starter role

 

I see this as our "DL" remake a few years back.  Likely a round 1 WR, then heavy defense/secondary focus.  I'm ok having 2 "solid/not great" corners, with fast / very good safeties.  I think we try to get younger/faster at that spot in particular

[Freddie's Dead]

7 hours ago, stevestojan said:

All bull#### aside, I reallllly want to agree with the part that “Elam cannot possibly be this bad.” 

 

I can’t think of a worse first round pick right now. Williams? Losman maybe? 

 

Aaron Maybin says "Hi Stoyo!!"

[stevestojan]

13 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said:

 

Aaron Maybin says "Hi Stoyo!!"

I’ve heard severe emotional trauma can cause memory loss. Somehow forgot about Aaron. 

[Mr. WEO]

54 minutes ago, MJS said:

Because he watches film and has a lot of scouting experience and saw things that he can improve on.

 

I know he is more qualified than me to know. I don't watch film. Most of what Marino says makes sense to me. If you don't like what he has to say, that's your choice.  But I trust him way more than I trust you.

 

I was simply asking a question ( a simple one)--I didn't say I knew anything about Elam's ability to improve.  

 

But watching a guy on a game film is nothing like seeing how he takes instruction, how he executes in practice, how he changes his play based on suggested corrective actions by the coaching staff.  The staff sees that every day---and it's year 2.   I'm pretty sure they have been working with Elam for months--yet they still didn't feel he was ready all season until injuries forced him onto the active roster.  The results were what they were.

 

Watching the game, Joe knows what's wrong and how to fix Elam---something the staff hasn't figured out since camp opened (obviously).

 

I think that's a bit presumptuous.  Joe should ring up McD and the fellas and tell them how to turn this kid around.  Simple!

 

 

[Success]

1 hour ago, Joe Ferguson said:

Not worried about our D. We all it's going to stink. As long as Josh Allen is still playing, we have a shot to win it all. Mahomes won two Super Bowls with a putrid defense. So let our opponents score as much as they can but in the end the Bills will score more.

 

Our D isn't going to stink.  At all.  It's still a top 10 D at minimum (I actually think they'll be closer to top 5 by the end of the season).

 

[Snowbowl]

8 hours ago, Special K said:

Elam was inactive weeks 1-4 for a reason......his performance in week 5 was a visual representation of that reason.

 

There’s no reason to think the D can’t be serviceable, but the chances of stopping the top offenses without Milano, Jones, White are not good.

We Did stop a very good O for most of the game. The O didn’t keep their end of the bargain. Our O is mentally weak. Not the trait of a champion. Hopefully they toughen up. 

[Rubes]

If we're looking for silver linings, all I can say is that for both Milano and Jones, it's very likely that their injuries will not affect their performance over the long term. For both tibial plateau and pectoral tear injuries, there doesn't appear to be any long-term impact on performance and both should be able to return to their pre-injury form. That is something that I really worried about.

 

In case you haven't seen the excellent articles by Banged Up Bills that cover both injuries, here they are:

 

Examining Buffalo Bills Matt Milano’s Right Knee Injury

 

Analyzing Buffalo Bills DaQuan Jones’s Pectoral Injury

 

 

[MJS]

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I was simply asking a question ( a simple one)--I didn't say I knew anything about Elam's ability to improve.  

 

But watching a guy on a game film is nothing like seeing how he takes instruction, how he executes in practice, how he changes his play based on suggested corrective actions by the coaching staff.  The staff sees that every day---and it's year 2.   I'm pretty sure they have been working with Elam for months--yet they still didn't feel he was ready all season until injuries forced him onto the active roster.  The results were what they were.

 

Watching the game, Joe knows what's wrong and how to fix Elam---something the staff hasn't figured out since camp opened (obviously).

 

I think that's a bit presumptuous.  Joe should ring up McD and the fellas and tell them how to turn this kid around.  Simple!

He simply remarked about what he saw on film. Go listen. He said that Elam was hesitant at times in his technique, that he seemed to lack confidence (understandable given his situation), that he turned his body too long before squaring against the receiver, etc. He gave some very specific feedback. It sounds to me like it is mainly technique and confidence that he needs to work on.

 

Marino didn't say he had all the answers, just that the problems he saw look fixable. Maybe Elam will never be able to fix them. Maybe he will never be able to play proper technique without hesitation. Maybe he'll never get his confidence back. That's not really the point. The point is the stuff he needs to work on require working on technique and gaining confidence, which are things that any player could feasibly work on to improve. Elam might not be able to because some kind of mental block. Who knows?

[Mr. WEO]

8 hours ago, MJS said:

He simply remarked about what he saw on film. Go listen. He said that Elam was hesitant at times in his technique, that he seemed to lack confidence (understandable given his situation), that he turned his body too long before squaring against the receiver, etc. He gave some very specific feedback. It sounds to me like it is mainly technique and confidence that he needs to work on.

 

Marino didn't say he had all the answers, just that the problems he saw look fixable. Maybe Elam will never be able to fix them. Maybe he will never be able to play proper technique without hesitation. Maybe he'll never get his confidence back. That's not really the point. The point is the stuff he needs to work on require working on technique and gaining confidence, which are things that any player could feasibly work on to improve. Elam might not be able to because some kind of mental block. Who knows?

 

Do you think Marino thinks the staff hasn't long ago already identified Elam's weaknesses and have been trying to correct them all season?  Do you think that as well?

 

That essentially was my question.  

[MJS]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

Do you think Marino thinks the staff hasn't long ago already identified Elam's weaknesses and have been trying to correct them all season?  Do you think that as well?

 

That essentially was my question.  

I don't think Marino was critiquing the coaching staff or Elam's ability to improve. I think he was remarking specifically on what he saw to player doing, regardless of who it was, and said those specific things are very possible to be fixed.

[C.Biscuit97]

20 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

Erik Flowers was selected in the first round (26th overall) of the 2000 NFL Draft.

 

\

Funny that in previous years Hyde and Poyer were the ones who was masking other players' performance previous years.

Players get old sadly. Injuries and past 30 are real things. You lose a half step, your career changes.

[MJS]

21 hours ago, Process said:

Hyde and Poyer are slow and washed up. That gets masked with a dominant front 7. I'm not sure we have that anymore.

 

And we have ZERO CB depth. As of right now we are one injury away (Benford) from having Micah Hyde covering a teams best WR on the most critical play of the game. 

Hyde has been playing well. Poyer might be washed up, though.

[Process]

41 minutes ago, MJS said:

Hyde has been playing well. Poyer might be washed up, though.

Hyde for sure is the better of the two at this point