Is this Bills team better than the 2020/2021/2022 versions?

[FireChans]

Topic Title.

 

We discuss draft and free agency hits and misses pretty frequently on this board. But the ultimate goal is to be the team last standing.  Over the last 3, now approaching 4 years of clawing at the door, I think this question is important.

 

QB: Equal because Josh rules

 

RB: Potentially best this year with Cook and co. but remains to be seen, the other years were pretty equal.

 

WR: 2020 probably has this group beat, but if Kincaid pops in his WR role, this may be the best year as well

 

OL: Again, 2020 was sneaky a solid OL year, a lot of guys played above their ability, but hopefully 2023 is even better

 

DL: 2022 pre-Von injury, but if Von comes back at his usual level this should be just as good, if not better with Floyd

 

LB: The 2022 had the two best seasons out of Milano/Tremaine in Bills uni's. 2023 takes a big hit this year.

 

CB: 2020 probably has the best CB group by default because Tre was healthy all year. Hopefully Benford outperforms Levi and Tre returns to form

 

S: 2021 probably takes this because Hyde/Poyer were healthy and 2 years younger, but if those old guys can hang on, 2023 should be around that level.

 

STer: We have lost future Bills Wall of Famer Taiwain Jones, but ST doesn't really matter so who cares.

 

What say you.

[ganesh]

What about Coaching?  I think they are going to make the biggest difference to this team.

[Dr.Sack]

They should be just as good, plus I count the additions and I think the roster is as deep and Kincaid & Torrence have All Pro potential. 

[Behindenemylines]

Want to see how the defense is after a good sampling of games.  I predict they will be way more aggressive and hit home giving someone double digit sacks if not two someone’s.  McD trusts we can recover from a few bigger plays but also our secondary will prevent more with more line action 

[bmur66]

Stefon says "They stink" so there you go.

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by bmur66

[Gregg]

7 hours ago, ganesh said:

What about Coaching?  I think they are going to make the biggest difference to this team.

 

I lost faith in McDermott after 13 seconds. He is a good regular season coach, but I don't know if he gets us to the top. To many playoff failures in his history not to mention winless on the road in the playoffs.

[DeltaDigital]

3 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

I lost faith in McDermott after 13 seconds. He is a good regular season coach, but I don't know if he gets us to the top. To many playoff failures in his history not to mention winless on the road in the playoffs.

Don’t forget the collapse In Houston where the aforementioned Taiwan jones sent us golfing on a 3-13 dump off where we gave 20yard cushions. That’s directly on Clappy McClapperson too. 

[Bob Lamb]

7 hours ago, ganesh said:

What about Coaching?  I think they are going to make the biggest difference to this team.

 

The Bills fatal flaw will be McDermott - he doesn't have the "right" stuff

 

What was that time out for?

[Success]

I've said it a few times - this is the best team of the JA era.  It's the most talented, the deepest and the most balanced.

 

Honestly, it may be the best Bills team of all time.  I don't know if that sounds like sacrilege or hyperbole (or both), but I think it has potential to be.

 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

Just now, Success said:

I've said it a few times - this is the best team of the JA era.  It's the most talented, the deepest and the most balanced.

 

Honestly, it may be the best Bills team of all time.  I don't know if that sounds like sacrilege or hyperbole (or both), but I think it has potential to be.

 

 

It could be for sure. It's time for the coaching staff to prove themselves.

[NewEra]

I think this is the best team we’ve had to date.  

[Gregg]

3 minutes ago, Success said:

I've said it a few times - this is the best team of the JA era.  It's the most talented, the deepest and the most balanced.

 

Honestly, it may be the best Bills team of all time.  I don't know if that sounds like sacrilege or hyperbole (or both), but I think it has potential to be.

 

 

Before my time but the nod goes to the 64 and 65 Bills simply because they won back-to-back AFL championships. Plus, the early 90's Bills are probably better. Better OL for sure, better overall group of WR's led by Reed and Lofton, much better RB. Defensively I think the 90's Bills were also better led by #78.

[The Jokeman]

I think we're far better than 2022 for sure, 2021 was a magical year in the playoffs minus the 13 seconds, 2020 we were good but defense wasn't great. As to me a healthy Von and Floyd puts us at the best place we can be when comes to pass rush which what we've been lacking for most of the Josh Allen run except during the first half of last season when were world beaters. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Regarding Cook, I am a bit concern with his pass protection and ability to be on the same page with Allen in the passing game. There were a couple instances last year where it seemed Cook was in the wrong spot on his routes. 
 

Those could be two areas where there is a drop off at the position. Hopefully just rookie mistakes but something to keep an eye on. 

[Radar]

Let you know in January😉

[eball]

10 hours ago, FireChans said:

Topic Title.

 

We discuss draft and free agency hits and misses pretty frequently on this board. But the ultimate goal is to be the team last standing.  Over the last 3, now approaching 4 years of clawing at the door, I think this question is important.

 

QB: Equal because Josh rules

 

RB: Potentially best this year with Cook and co. but remains to be seen, the other years were pretty equal.

 

WR: 2020 probably has this group beat, but if Kincaid pops in his WR role, this may be the best year as well

 

OL: Again, 2020 was sneaky a solid OL year, a lot of guys played above their ability, but hopefully 2023 is even better

 

DL: 2022 pre-Von injury, but if Von comes back at his usual level this should be just as good, if not better with Floyd

 

LB: The 2022 had the two best seasons out of Milano/Tremaine in Bills uni's. 2023 takes a big hit this year.

 

CB: 2020 probably has the best CB group by default because Tre was healthy all year. Hopefully Benford outperforms Levi and Tre returns to form

 

S: 2021 probably takes this because Hyde/Poyer were healthy and 2 years younger, but if those old guys can hang on, 2023 should be around that level.

 

STer: We have lost future Bills Wall of Famer Taiwain Jones, but ST doesn't really matter so who cares.

 

What say you.

 

I disagree with nearly all of your assessments.

 

QB is better because Josh is more experienced

RB room is much better

WR room is at least equal to 2020. (Edit:  I'm talking all pass catchers, including TEs)

OL is better on paper

DL is better on paper

LB is unknown but you'd expect it to be a step down from Edmunds

CB is better and deeper

S is better with addition of Rapp, who will play a lot

ST do matter and Bass is a top 5 K.  Martin a very solid punter.  Probably no worse than any other year.

 

I'm solidly on the record that this year's team is the most talented of the McBeane era, and probably the best since 1990.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by eball

[mjd1001]

I think they are just as good as the last 2 seasons.

 

I really think their secondary play may disappoint.  Poyer and Hyde are still Good, but I think we are going to notice they are losing a step or two and are going to miss some plays they made the previous years.

 

The OL I still think is well below average. Maybe slightly upgraded from last year?  Either way not good.

 

But like the NFL as a whole it all comes down the the QB.  If Allen is healthy, he is near or at the top of the list of Best QB's and the Bills will therefore be good.

 

I posted something a while ago but now might be a good time to post it again, regarding Allen's elbow injury:

 

Allen got hurt in that November game against the Jets. As a reminder the Bills played 11 games from then until the end of the year, including 2 playoff games. In those 11 games:

Team was 8W-3L with 26.9 points per game.  Allen completed 60.9% for 2701 yards, 19td, 11ints.

 

For comparison, I looked at the previous 11 games (including 2 playoff games) before the injury (matching the 11 game number to get the best comparison):

Team was 9W-2L with 31.1 points per game. Allen completed 69.4% for 3074 yards, 30td, 6 ints.

 

Oh, and before the injury 3 games against the consensus best team Chiefs, all on the road at Arrowhead, 2 wins and the only loss being the 13 second game.

To me, that is a big difference and many of the problems this team has can be 'solved' with a fully healthy Josh Allen.

 

IF Allen is and stays healthy, they are in the top 4 teams in the league and just as good as any version of this team over the past few years.

Edited September 7, 2023 by mjd1001

[SoonerBillsFan]

10 hours ago, FireChans said:

Topic Title.

 

We discuss draft and free agency hits and misses pretty frequently on this board. But the ultimate goal is to be the team last standing.  Over the last 3, now approaching 4 years of clawing at the door, I think this question is important.

 

QB: Equal because Josh rules

 

RB: Potentially best this year with Cook and co. but remains to be seen, the other years were pretty equal.

 

WR: 2020 probably has this group beat, but if Kincaid pops in his WR role, this may be the best year as well

 

OL: Again, 2020 was sneaky a solid OL year, a lot of guys played above their ability, but hopefully 2023 is even better

 

DL: 2022 pre-Von injury, but if Von comes back at his usual level this should be just as good, if not better with Floyd

 

LB: The 2022 had the two best seasons out of Milano/Tremaine in Bills uni's. 2023 takes a big hit this year.

 

CB: 2020 probably has the best CB group by default because Tre was healthy all year. Hopefully Benford outperforms Levi and Tre returns to form

 

S: 2021 probably takes this because Hyde/Poyer were healthy and 2 years younger, but if those old guys can hang on, 2023 should be around that level.

 

STer: We have lost future Bills Wall of Famer Taiwain Jones, but ST doesn't really matter so who cares.

 

What say you.

We wont know until the end of 2023.  

[FireChans]

8 minutes ago, eball said:

 

I disagree with nearly all of your assessments.

 

QB is better because Josh is more experienced

RB room is much better

WR room is at least equal to 2020

OL is better on paper

DL is better on paper

LB is unknown but you'd expect it to be a step down from Edmunds

CB is better and deeper

S is better with addition of Rapp, who will play a lot

ST do matter and Bass is a top 5 K.  Martin a very solid punter.  Probably no worse than any other year.

 

I'm solidly on the record that this year's team is the most talented of the McBeane era, and probably the best since 1990.

 

Calling the WR room better than 2020 makes no sense to me personally. Diggs/Brown/unwashed Cole/Davis. 
 

Gabe Davis was WR4 in that room!

[eball]

4 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Calling the WR room better than 2020 makes no sense to me personally. Diggs/Brown/unwashed Cole/Davis. 
 

Gabe Davis was WR4 in that room!

 

I said at least equal.  The WR room is deeper now for sure.  Beasley was great, but 2023 Davis is better than 2020 Davis and I guess I'm thinking overall "pass catchers" rather than simply WRs.  Knox and Kincaid tip the scales.

 

[teef]

i honestly have no idea, and that makes this year exciting for me.

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

I think this is the best team we’ve had to date.  

 

2 minutes ago, teef said:

i honestly have no idea, and that makes this year exciting for me.

 

Changes have been made and some look good.  It's a new season and as a fan you have to have hope they all work out.

It could be the best team fielded in this regime.

 

All the offseason prognostications don't mean squat because when it comes down to it, it's all about playing the games.

I too am excited for the new season!

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

31 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Calling the WR room better than 2020 makes no sense to me personally. Diggs/Brown/unwashed Cole/Davis. 
 

Gabe Davis was WR4 in that room!

I don’t want to put words in his mouth but I think he’s comparing on paper going into the season that year to on paper going into the season this year.  Like did anyone really know cole was unwashed or John brown was gonna go over 1k receiving yards?

 

I think it’s josh making the receivers more so than the receivers making josh so it’s very possible someone maybe unexpected going into the season is gonna go off this year also.  

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, FireChans said:

Topic Title.

 

We discuss draft and free agency hits and misses pretty frequently on this board. But the ultimate goal is to be the team last standing.  Over the last 3, now approaching 4 years of clawing at the door, I think this question is important.

 

QB: Equal because Josh rules

 

RB: Potentially best this year with Cook and co. but remains to be seen, the other years were pretty equal.

 

WR: 2020 probably has this group beat, but if Kincaid pops in his WR role, this may be the best year as well

 

OL: Again, 2020 was sneaky a solid OL year, a lot of guys played above their ability, but hopefully 2023 is even better

 

DL: 2022 pre-Von injury, but if Von comes back at his usual level this should be just as good, if not better with Floyd

 

LB: The 2022 had the two best seasons out of Milano/Tremaine in Bills uni's. 2023 takes a big hit this year.

 

CB: 2020 probably has the best CB group by default because Tre was healthy all year. Hopefully Benford outperforms Levi and Tre returns to form

 

S: 2021 probably takes this because Hyde/Poyer were healthy and 2 years younger, but if those old guys can hang on, 2023 should be around that level.

 

STer: We have lost future Bills Wall of Famer Taiwain Jones, but ST doesn't really matter so who cares.

 

What say you.

 

 

Who are you and what have you done with FireChans?

 

IMO you're on target or very close with nearly all of this.

 

STs absolutely matter, but certainly not as much as offense or defense.

 

 

15 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Davis might be better but it’s really not significantly better than what he was in 2020 in a reduced role… Kincaid is still a question mark. Either way I’d say the pass catchers are worse than that great room of 2020. 
 

 

 

No reason whatsoever to think Davis won't be better than he was in 2020. He was a lot better in 2021 till the injury.

 

Fair enough to think 2020 WRs were better. This is a close competition, IMO, I'm with him, if Kincaid is counted here we look better this year for pass catchers overall, and for pass catchers, 2020 Knox was not what he is today.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Thurman#1

[colin]

we fall apart if allen falls off (basically injury), if the d just suddenly ages out hard, or if mcd truly was the issue w our d coaching all along.

 

if allen keeps it crispy, if the d stays sharp, and if mcd brings the pain in the playcalls i think we have our magic season this year.

[eball]

31 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Davis might be better but it’s really not significantly better than what he was in 2020 in a reduced role… Kincaid is still a question mark. Either way I’d say the pass catchers are worse than that great room of 2020. 
 

 

LOL now the 2020 WR room was “great” — ok.  Diggs and Beasley were great.  A rookie Davis had 599 yards and John Brown had 458.

 

[ddaryl]

I'll have a better idea on how this team is going ot be around mid October. 

I have question marks for OL, DL, MLB, and for the OC and DC. I have questions about Gabe Davis, and our new WR's.  Until we play against other teams how do we know???

[folz]

2 hours ago, Success said:

I've said it a few times - this is the best team of the JA era.  It's the most talented, the deepest and the most balanced.

 

Honestly, it may be the best Bills team of all time.  I don't know if that sounds like sacrilege or hyperbole (or both), but I think it has potential to be.

 

 

The key is the bolded above in Success' post. This is by far the deepest team that we have had in the McBeane era. Our depth was tested last year and we were lacking. That should not be the case this year. It's been a slow build over 5 years, but we are now a very deep team at almost every spot.

 

And as far as overall talent, who have we really lost over the last 4 years that played any significant role:

Beasley, Singletary, John Brown, McKenzie, Feliciano, Star, Levi, a waning Jerry Hughes, Edmunds, Addison, Moss, Daryl Williams, Vernon Butler

 

Out of that group, the only above-average production we got in those 3 years was Beasley in 2020.

 

Some of our additions since the end of 2021:

Von Miller, Floyd, Poona, Shaq, Jordan Phillips, DaQuan, Settle, Rapp, Benford, Elam, Harty, Sherfield, Damien Harris, Murray, Cook, McGovern, Torrence, Edwards, Kincaid, Martin, Bernard, Shakir, Williams

 

Not saying ALL of those guys are studs by any means and many are still a wait and see, but it's pretty obvious that overall it is superior talent in volume and quality to what we have lost. And in comparison to last year, if they just stay healthier and have less distractions, that is a huge plus for this season even before you equate in this year's additions. Heck, just Tre, Hyde, Josh, Gabe, Jordan P, Poyer, and Von being healthier/available is a big difference from last season (provided they can all stay that way, for the most part). And I feel that they addressed the two biggest offensive issues from last season: slot WR and interior O-Line.

 

And the last addition, of course,  is experience: players like Knox, Davis, Josh, Brown, Rousseau are all more experienced than they were 2, 3, 4 years ago. And our more recent guys: Benford, Elam, Shakir, Cook all now have at least a year under their belts.

 

imo...this is definitely the best team in both overall talent and top to bottom depth since pre-drought.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by folz

[TheBrownBear]

QB: Worse, because Josh is Hollywood and has a distracting GF. Also, he has golfer's elbow.

 

RB: Worse because Latavius Murray is old and our starting running back never smiles which is bad for team chemistry. His brother was available and he has a great smile and isn't afraid to show it. 

 

WR: Worse because Stef hates Josh and McDermott and wants to be in Dallas. Also, we drafted a guy who sounds like a rodeo performer not a pass catcher.

 

OL: Worse because Shell retired.

 

DL: Worse because we traded Boogie

 

LB: Worse because Edmunds walked

 

CB: Worse because we are starting a 6th rounder and a guy without an ACL

 

S: Worse because these guys are old and would rather be in Miami.

 

STer: Worse because Hines got run over by a boat.

 

Did I get this right?

Edited September 7, 2023 by TheBrownBear

[eball]

1 hour ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I don’t want to put words in his mouth but I think he’s comparing on paper going into the season that year to on paper going into the season this year.  Like did anyone really know cole was unwashed or John brown was gonna go over 1k receiving yards?

 

I think it’s josh making the receivers more so than the receivers making josh so it’s very possible someone maybe unexpected going into the season is gonna go off this year also.  

 

Brown had 1K in 2019.  In 2020 the ghost of John Brown had fewer yards than rookie Davis.

 

[Paup 1995MVP]

2 hours ago, Success said:

I've said it a few times - this is the best team of the JA era.  It's the most talented, the deepest and the most balanced.

 

Honestly, it may be the best Bills team of all time.  I don't know if that sounds like sacrilege or hyperbole (or both), but I think it has potential to be.

 

If the O line play is at least at a decent to good level (doesn't have to be very good to great) and the coaching is solid throughout the season, we will be strongly in the mix come January.  

 

The best Bills team of all time seems a bit much before we have even played a game yet.  There were some real good teams in the 60's and the Super Bowl teams had some really really good players across the board.  So lets hold off on those kinds of statements until we get through the grind of a 17 game regular season.  

 

I think we are all excited as Bills fans with the potential of the team.  But there is excitement with a lot of fan bases right now.  

[Airseven]

While the overall talent is comparable, this year’s team is older and injuries have taken their toll on star players. I don’t remember heading into a season with so many positional questions. So much rides on guys like Brown, Davis, Rousseau, Epenesa, and Oliver having breakout seasons and I have little confidence in that happening. 

[Gregg]

35 minutes ago, Airseven said:

While the overall talent is comparable, this year’s team is older and injuries have taken their toll on star players. I don’t remember heading into a season with so many positional questions. So much rides on guys like Brown, Davis, Rousseau, Epenesa, and Oliver having breakout seasons and I have little confidence in that happening. 

 

Regardless of how this season plays out I do think we are headed for an interesting offseason. As you mentioned players are getting older and many are on the wrong side of 30. I don't want to call it a rebuild but a reload or retooling of the roster will probably happen for the 2024 season. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Gregg

[TheBrownBear]

2 minutes ago, Airseven said:

While the overall talent is comparable, this year’s team is older and injuries have taken their toll on star players. I don’t remember heading into a season with so many positional questions. So much rides on guys like Brown, Davis, Rousseau, Epenesa, and Oliver having breakout seasons and I have little confidence in that happening. 

I feel you, but those guys have all played major roles in the past when we were winning 11 and 13 regular season games.  I think we're talented enough, but as is the case with the rest of the contenders not named the Chiefs (presuming Mahomes stays upright), much of how we finish will come down to staying healthy, playoff coaching and a dose of luck. 

[hondo in seattle]

2 hours ago, Success said:

I've said it a few times - this is the best team of the JA era.  It's the most talented, the deepest and the most balanced.

 

Honestly, it may be the best Bills team of all time.  I don't know if that sounds like sacrilege or hyperbole (or both), but I think it has potential to be.

 

 

I really want this to be true.

But too many unsettled questions for me to go there.  How good will this OL be?  Will Kincaid emerge as a star?   Now that Motor is gone, how will our RBs perform?  Was Gabe's ankle truly holding him back and will he emerge a solid #2?  Will Dorsey grow as an OC?  Will our safeties return to peak form?  Will Tre?  Will someone step up at MLB?  Will Von have a productive season?  And so on...

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, eball said:

 

LOL now the 2020 WR room was “great” — ok.  Diggs and Beasley were great.  A rookie Davis had 599 yards and John Brown had 458.

 

Do you think Harty/Sherfield will have around 600 and 450 yards each, respectively?

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Do you think Harty/Sherfield will have around 600 and 450 yards each, respectively?

If they do we are getting the 1seed

[TheBrownBear]

7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

If they do we are getting the 1seed

But what if they're our starting #1/#2 receivers for 16 games?

[GoBills808]

Just now, TheBrownBear said:

But what if they're our starting #1/#2 receivers for 16 games?

then we are getting the first pick overall

[BigAl2526]

4 hours ago, bmur66 said:

Stefon says "They stink" so there you go.

 

Stefon means they all need to shower.