Vikings Chad Greenway takes shot at Leslie Frazier defense

[DJB]

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by DJB

[BillsPride12]

"Were not this year either"- McDermott 

[co_springs_billsfan]

Leslie so classy he probably just ADDED Greenway to the Christmas card list 

[SCBills]

Reading between the lines, it sounds like a lot of our players felt the same way. 

[Don Otreply]

Now it’s being said out loud, 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Don Otreply

[Alphadawg7]

25 minutes ago, DJB said:

 

It’s the thing I’m most excited about this season.  Seeing the defense under McD rather than Loosey Frazier 

[Real McClappy]

7 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

It’s the thing I’m most excited about this season.  Seeing the defense under McD rather than Loosey Frazier 

Same here Alpha. 

I want to see the D take more risks overall. There will be rewards and there will be times we get beat on bigger plays. I think/hope the Rewards will outplay the Risks overall. We still have a pretty talented D overall. It's time to straight bring the pressure especially come playoff time.

 

Enough of the conservative BS. 

[BuffaloBillyG]

Now that's not going to help Leslie get a HC job next year....

[SWATeam]

Only issue with a more aggressive approach is that we are old and slow on the backend and it will leave us vulnerable to the big play.

 

Still better than a slow death by all these frustratingly long drives.  The worst thing that can happen is we give up a big TD and give the ball back to our offense.  

[Don Otreply]

2 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Now that's not going to help Leslie get a HC job next year....

There isn’t anything that is going to help Leslie get a HC job…, 

[HOUSE]

Oh no, I loved the Tampa 2

I will miss those 13 seconds of excitement 

 

[BuffaloBillyG]

1 minute ago, Don Otreply said:

There isn’t anything that is going to help Leslie get a HC job…, 

Just takes 1 owner to do it. And there are from time to time, openings that a coach like Frazier is perfect for. 

 

Take the Texans a few years back. Culley was hired to basically be a scapegoat/anti Bill O'Brien. Lend some normalcy after having a coach that was just wild. A coach popular with the players that brings a steady hand and level approach. Now the older he gets I'll agree the less likely it becomes. 

[HaldimandBills]

This brings joy. My biggest issue with our defense is watching top tier QB's laugh at our Tampa 2 defense as they march up and down the field on us.

 

I dont mind giving up the odd big play against superior offenses when they'll inevitably score anyways after a 12 play drive. I'd rather risk some creativity and force turnovers and stops. It's been gut wrenching watching DeShaun Watson, Philip Rivers, Patrick Mahomes, Joe Burrow, and to some extent Skylar Thompson marching up and down on this soft zone defense. 

 

There has to be something said for a defense who let's QB's take easy throws and get in a throwing groove. Make them work for their receptions. 

[EmotionallyUnstable]

I just don’t buy it.

 

McDermotts defense isn’t going to vary all that much IMO

[k2mountain]

6 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

There isn’t anything that is going to help Leslie get a HC job…, 

Yeah. 13 seconds, his advanced age, and his "taking a year off" are going to be difficult to overcome.

 

Owners want to hire young and creative offense minded coaches. They want to hire the next Mike McDaniel.

[RobbRiddick]

I sure hope we don't end up revisiting his thread with comments like "looks like Fraizer wasn't the problem after all" if it ends up being even worse under McD

 

 

 

 

 

 

How aggressive were his defenses in Carolina?

[billsbackto81]

46 minutes ago, co_springs_billsfan said:

Leslie so classy he probably just ADDED Greenway to the Christmas card list 

Bless his heart....

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

Fraziers scheme is very effective against average to below average teams. I’ll give him that. Opportunistic as well. Reminds me a lot of those Dungy defenses where they’re gonna win every game if they can hold the other team below 20 points because of having such a prolific offense. Just sucks bc it doesn’t really work against the top offenses in the league. 

[SCBills]

30 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

Only issue with a more aggressive approach is that we are old and slow on the backend and it will leave us vulnerable to the big play.

 

Still better than a slow death by all these frustratingly long drives.  The worst thing that can happen is we give up a big TD and give the ball back to our offense.  

Old and slow now .. next year might be young and inexperienced .. there’s always a reason to keep the status quo.  
 

It’s time to change, and I really hope we see Carolina McDermott in this Defense. 

21 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

I just don’t buy it.

 

McDermotts defense isn’t going to vary all that much IMO

Perhaps, but we have quotes from our players that make it sound like it will be different. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

20 minutes ago, RobbRiddick said:

I sure hope we don't end up revisiting his thread with comments like "looks like Fraizer wasn't the problem after all" if it ends up being even worse under McD

 

 

 

 

 

 

How aggressive were his defenses in Carolina?

McD is a Jim Johnson protege who ran a more aggressive 4-3 scheme with a lot of disguised blitzes designed to combat the new (at the time) west coast offense. 
 

Here’s a cool article back when McDermott was just hired by the Bills that goes more in depth. https://billswire.usatoday.com/2017/01/12/breaking-down-bills-hc-sean-mcdermotts-defensive-philosophy/

[NewEra]

46 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

It’s the thing I’m most excited about this season.  Seeing the defense under McD rather than Loosey Frazier 

Other than Dalton KingKaid, aka the Big Smooth, aka Swol Beasley, aka Butter….. I would agree that our defensive play calling/scheme is what I’m looking forward to the most.

[MikePJ76]

is this a quote from like 10 years ago?

 

Doesn't seem relevant to me.  They didn't really get much better with zimmer's aggressive defense the next season.  

 

I have never believed Frazier was not doing in part what McDermott wanted.  If you become a head coach based on something you did to get you hired you are not just going to let someone else run that unit without your final say on things.

time will tell and hopefully they pick their spots to be more aggressive but I am not anticipating this large change many seem to believe is coming.

[DJB]

Anything has to be better than having our DB’s constantly give a ten yard cushion .

 

That can’t happen again ever 

[GunnerBill]

Yea keep dumping on the guy that kept producing top 10 defenses.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

Yea keep dumping on the guy that kept producing top 10 defenses.

Very weird to me

 

this guys best years as a pro were under Frazier as well

[DCofNC]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Yea keep dumping on the guy that kept producing top 10 defenses.

And smoked when it mattered most…every time.

[BillzFreak]

10 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

McD is a Jim Johnson protege who ran a more aggressive 4-3 scheme with a lot of disguised blitzes designed to combat the new (at the time) west coast offense. 
 

Here’s a cool article back when McDermott was just hired by the Bills that goes more in depth. https://billswire.usatoday.com/2017/01/12/breaking-down-bills-hc-sean-mcdermotts-defensive-philosophy/

That's what I was thinking during watching how we played defense, Jim Johnson ran a bunch of exotic and disguised blitzes. So watching this team sit back time and time again with a head coach who supposedly is a Jim Johnson protégé has been odd. I understand every coach has tweaks and puts there own spin on how they run things but it seems McDermott has gotten away from most of what he learned under Johnson. So hopefully this is the year he goes back and actually becomes aggressive with the defense. 

[jkeerie]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Yea keep dumping on the guy that kept producing top 10 defenses.

He was fine in his time.  Today, you cannot sit back on these new QBs.  They will pick you apart.

[DCofNC]

12 minutes ago, MikePJ76 said:

is this a quote from like 10 years ago?

 

Doesn't seem relevant to me.  They didn't really get much better with zimmer's aggressive defense the next season.  

 

I have never believed Frazier was not doing in part what McDermott wanted.  If you become a head coach based on something you did to get you hired you are not just going to let someone else run that unit without your final say on things.

time will tell and hopefully they pick their spots to be more aggressive but I am not anticipating this large change many seem to believe is coming.

Time will tell, I saw nothing in pre-season that looked remotely different and the corner they drafted who plays best in man coverage, is again, getting shoved down the depth chart.  
 

I hope there’s something more aggressive coming.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

And smoked when it mattered most…every time.

 

Nobody is saying Frazier was perfect. But the hate he gets for the results he has produced is way over the top. 

2 minutes ago, BillzFreak said:

That's what I was thinking during watching how we played defense, Jim Johnson ran a bunch of exotic and disguised blitzes. So watching this team sit back time and time again with a head coach who supposedly is a Jim Johnson protégé has been odd. I understand every coach has tweaks and puts there own spin on how they run things but it seems McDermott has gotten away from most of what he learned under Johnson. So hopefully this is the year he goes back and actually becomes aggressive with the defense. 

 

What has happened since Jim Johnson is the NFL has changed. The rules have changed. The way offenses play has changed. I don't think Jim Johnson if he was still alive and coaching today would still be running the Jim Johnson defense of the mid 00s. And if he was it wouldn't be as successful. 

[MikePJ76]

8 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

McD is a Jim Johnson protege who ran a more aggressive 4-3 scheme with a lot of disguised blitzes designed to combat the new (at the time) west coast offense. 
 

Here’s a cool article back when McDermott was just hired by the Bills that goes more in depth. https://billswire.usatoday.com/2017/01/12/breaking-down-bills-hc-sean-mcdermotts-defensive-philosophy/

That is where frazier came from also.  They were all apart of Johnson's defenses in Philly together.  Frazier was older and higher on the staff than mcdermott  was.  Plus frazier played (with ron rivera) on the bears teams in the 80s with Ditka and Ryan.  

 

The bottom line is the chef who is stirring the spoon may be different but the ingredients and the recipe is going to be the same because Mcdermott and frazier are all basically using the same recipe that goes back to those jim johnson staffs in philly with Rivera, spagnuolo etc.

 

IMO, it will be different when we see it be different.  They may pick their spots to be more aggressive but I do not think there is this big huge change coming.  

[DCofNC]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nobody is saying Frazier was perfect. But the hate he gets for the results he has produced is way over the top. 

His results against mediocre competition was good.  They fell flat on their face against better teams all too often.  It was a classic example of playing not to lose, which works when you can confuse a rookie/back-up, not against real QBs.

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, jkeerie said:

He was fine in his time.  Today, you cannot sit back on these new QBs.  They will pick you apart.

 

When you blitz them a ton they kill you. I have said it many times but everyone goes on about the Miami touchdown last year when Leslie rushed 3. Probably a call he'd want back. But there are also plenty of examples in the last two years where gave up big plays when did try and blitz. The Buccaneers game winner stands out but there are others too. 

 

I don't think McDermott is going to become some sort of all out pressure guy and I certainly hope he is not. It is the wrong was to play defense in 2023.

[Dan in Owego]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nobody is saying Frazier was perfect. But the hate he gets for the results he has produced is way over the top. 

This is completely true but we hashed this out on here last January, I would like to see an approach like Spags. Top 15 ish during the year but more unpredictable and risk taking in the playoffs. 

 

Frazier the coach and man I have respect for and no need to beat him down, just seems like the right time for some tweaks.

[MikePJ76]

1 minute ago, Dan in Owego said:

This is completely true but we hashed this out on here last January, I would like to see an approach like Spags. Top 15 ish during the year but more unpredictable and risk taking in the playoffs. 

 

Frazier the coach and man I have respect for and no need to beat him down, just seems like the right time for some tweaks.

I bet if the bills defense stays healthy they will be more aggressive and attacking situationally in the playoffs.

 

Its hard to do that with the injuries they had the last two years on the defense in the postseason.  

[benderbender]

This thread is proof that we as a fanbase were fine without answers. We never got a straight answer for 13 seconds. We didn't get a reason for Frazier's departure. We didn't get an explanation for the Bengals loss, we just got a Delayed Onset Emotional Exhaustion excuse and was told to drink the process kool aid. Why so upset now? We don't really care to know. 

[BillzFreak]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nobody is saying Frazier was perfect. But the hate he gets for the results he has produced is way over the top. 

 

What has happened since Jim Johnson is the NFL has changed. The rules have changed. The way offenses play has changed. I don't think Jim Johnson if he was still alive and coaching today would still be running the Jim Johnson defense of the mid 00s. And if he was it wouldn't be as successful. 

I understand the game changes, but to really not be aggressive at all, even in today's NFL you have to be multiple. It just seemed to me, we were content on playing the same way over and over again. Yes it has lead to being a top 10 defense year after year but having no counter punch ability in the playoffs has been a big downside of these teams lately.

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, BillzFreak said:

I understand the game changes, but to really not be aggressive at all, even in today's NFL you have to be multiple. It just seemed to me, we were content on playing the same way over and over again. Yes it has lead to being a top 10 defense year after year but having no counter punch ability in the playoffs has been a big downside of these teams lately.

 

I think the predictability is a much better point than the aggression. Even the creative things they did do in terms of some of their coverage matching (although they could do less of that once the Hyde and Poyer axis was broken) and the double A gap blitz look that they used to drop and flood zones from teams just got a bit used to them after 6 seasons of the same coordinator. 

 

Remember go back to 2019 and Bill Belichick no less was saying no defense in the NFL disguises its looks better than Buffalo. It just gets hard when you have had the same DC and a lot of the same core players - White, Poyer, Hyde, Edmunds, Johnson, Milano even Oliver together 4,5,6 seasons - to keep things fresh and to keep evolving. Teams are going to study film on you and find ways to break down what you do. 

 

I get that the D did not play well v the Bengals in the playoffs. But they held Miami to two drives of more than 30 yards in the entire game in the Wildcard and ended the regular season as a top 5 defense despite all their injuries. It was a hell of a coaching job. I think McDermott will call plays differently because no two play callers are ever the same even if the scheme is similar and that might break some tendencies that offenses had keyed in on under Frazier. Hopefully it does refresh what we are doing a bit. I just wonder if it might be undermined by the glaring hole at MLB.

[Billsflyer12]

1 hour ago, benderbender said:

This thread is proof that we as a fanbase were fine without answers. We never got a straight answer for 13 seconds. We didn't get a reason for Frazier's departure. We didn't get an explanation for the Bengals loss, we just got a Delayed Onset Emotional Exhaustion excuse and was told to drink the process kool aid. Why so upset now? We don't really care to know. 

Doesn’t help that all the WNY media just bend the knee to the team.  They are either literally employees or so scared of making anyone in the organization even minimally uncomfortable to actually begin to hold anyone even remotely accountable.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Billsflyer12

[LarryMadman]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Yea keep dumping on the guy that kept producing top 10 defenses.

And that got us where.......