Vikings Chad Greenway takes shot at Leslie Frazier defense

[BillsFan2313]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Sure. Did we play 3rd string QBs all season? 

 

How many points have we given up in the playoffs the last 3 years? 

[Jerome007]

On 9/3/2023 at 2:58 PM, HaldimandBills said:

I dont mind giving up the odd big play against superior offenses when they'll inevitably score anyways after a 12 play drive. I'd rather risk some creativity and force turnovers and stops.

I actually liked the Bills have given out so few long pass plays since McD has been here. Last year there were a few because Hyde was out, so Hyde & Poyer have a say in this too. But as if giving a "few" easy TDs per game was minor stuff. Like, what? Yes, if the opposing offense has to 12 plays, there is more chance for mistakes, turnovers, etc. It was just playing soft at bad times that caused the problems. Not the overall style of defense IMO.

[GunnerBill]

34 minutes ago, BillsFan2313 said:

 

How many points have we given up in the playoffs the last 3 years? 

 

You guys are like broken records. Yes, the last two playoff losses have sucked. But the criticism of Leslie Frazier is way over the top. The man is a darn good football coach. His record shows that.

[BillsFan130]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Oh okay so historically bad if we only count two games. Got it. 

 

Nobody is denying they have played badly in those two games.

The year before against KC add that one as well

 

Colts game they played poor.

 

Houston blew a 16 point lead.

 

It’s just not been a good playoff defence with him in totality. There’s no way around that 

1 hour ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Isnt every game in the playoffs an elimination game? What about the game changing INT returned for a TD by Taron Johnson? That's a top 3 play in franchise history. And how about the Hyde end-zone INT at home against the Patriots? 

No doubt defense choked away a win against Houston and 13 seconds. Cinci last year was an aberration. Bills were down so many players and emotionally spent. 

Still want to see more from the stars on D. This playoff season need to see Miller, Rousseau, Oliver, White, and Milano step up.

1. Yes they played well in a borderline hurricane game against Balt.

 

2. they also played well against Mac jones in a -10 playoff game

 

Those were their 2 good games in 8 playoff games under Frazier and both of them were under pretty extreme weather.

 

If that’s good enough for you, I’m not sure what to say

[34-78-83]

The quote is likely more relevant to Frazier's defense when he was the HC in Minnesota. The Bills didn't run a ton of true Tampa 2. They ran more cover 3, cover 2 man (which varies from Tampa 2), quarters coverage, etc. But of course dolts are going to open fire at any opportunity.

 

With that said, I am excited for the prospect of some more risk taking in McDermott's D, than when under Frazier.

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

The year before against KC add that one as well

 

Colts game they played poor.

 

Houston blew a 16 point lead.

 

 

I don't agree they played poor vs Indy. And the 16 point lead was in part blown by the offense turning the ***** thing over.

[BillsFan130]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't agree they played poor vs Indy. And the 16 point lead was in part blown by the offense turning the ***** thing over.

472 yards against a washed up Philip rivers they let up and they only turned the ball over once in that Houston game.

 

[Scott7975]

On 9/3/2023 at 2:49 PM, SWATeam said:

Only issue with a more aggressive approach is that we are old and slow on the backend and it will leave us vulnerable to the big play.

 

Still better than a slow death by all these frustratingly long drives.  The worst thing that can happen is we give up a big TD and give the ball back to our offense.  

 

Mostly what I hated about our defense is all the 3rd and longs we gave up.  It was like clockwork and you always know that 3rd and forever is getting converted when it should have no chance.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, BillsFan130 said:

472 yards against a washed up Philip rivers they let up and they only turned the ball over once in that Houston game.

 

 

472 yards but only 24 points.

 

A critical turnover and couldn't move the ball second half. Easy to pin that on the defense but they kept the Texans offense below their season average for points. Whereas their defense had one of their better days and beat their season average by 6 in holding us to 19. 

 

That loss was on the offense. Pure and simple.

[Bermuda Triangle]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't agree they played poor vs Indy. And the 16 point lead was in part blown by the offense turning the ***** thing over.

"Only" 472 yards & 27 first downs allowed, with Indy having the ball for over 34:00.  No turnovers forced, and no sacks.

 

In your estimation, what would amount to them playing "poorly"?

[BillsFan130]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

472 yards but only 24 points.

 

A critical turnover and couldn't move the ball second half. Easy to pin that on the defense but they kept the Texans offense below their season average for points. Whereas their defense had one of their better days and beat their season average by 6 in holding us to 19. 

 

That loss was on the offense. Pure and simple.

 

You can’t say the defence didn’t collapse…

They had a 16 point lead and led up 19 points in the 2nd half…

 

Offence sucked, defence also sucked in the clutch. Again.

[Bermuda Triangle]

Just now, BillsFan130 said:

 

You can’t say the defence didn’t collapse…

They had a 16 point lead and led up 19 points in the 2nd half…

 

Offence sucked, defence also sucked in the clutch. Again.

Siran Neal also dropped an easy Pick 6 early in the second half.  Won't show up in the stat sheet, though.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Bermuda Triangle said:

"Only" 472 yards & 27 first downs allowed, with Indy having the ball for over 34:00.  No turnovers forced, and no sacks.

 

In your estimation, what would amount to them playing "poorly"?

 

They kept the Colts 4 points below their season average. 

 

This is exactly the point. The Bills defense is intentionally bend but don't break and fans HATE that style cos most of them play way too much Madden. So sometimes they give up a lot of yards and some first downs you will find frustrating. It is the risk of that style of defense. 

 

I repeat.... the Frazier hate is way over the top. It is borderline deranged.

 

[Bermuda Triangle]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They kept the Colts 4 points below their season average. 

 

This is exactly the point. The Bills defense is intentionally bend but don't break and fans HATE that style cos most of them play way too much Madden. So sometimes they give up a lot of yards and some first downs you will find frustrating. It is the risk of that style of defense. 

 

I repeat.... the Frazier hate is way over the top. It is borderline deranged.

 

Bolded is comical.  Because people don't agree with your opinion (and yes, it is very much opinion, and not fact), they're unknowledgable.

 

I've seen very little "hate" of Frazier here - that's a strawman that you've repeated throughout this thread.  The biggest critiques of his defenses with the Bills are predictability and poor playoff performances.

 

Are you saying that if the Colts had converted the 4th and goal in the first half, only then would their defensive performance been bad (because the Colts would have then exceeded their season average in PPG).   Alternatively, had the Colts opted to kick the chip shot FG, then how would the Bills defense have graded out that day?  If the game plan was to allow the Colts to control the clock, allow > 50% 3rd down conversions and 50% 4th down conversions, then mission accomplished.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Bermuda Triangle

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Bermuda Triangle said:

Bolded is comical.  Because people don't agree with your opinion (and yes, it is very much opinion, and not fact), they're unknowledgable.

 

I've seen very little "hate" of Frazier here - that's a strawman that you've repeated throughout this thread.  The biggest critiques of his defenses with the Bills are predictability and poor playoff performances.

 

Are you saying that if the Colts had converted the 4th and goal in the first half, only then would their defensive performance been bad (because the Colts would have then exceeded their season average in PPG).   Alternatively, had the Colts opted to kick the chip shot FG, then how would the Bills defense have graded out that day?

 

Well of course if different things had happened the overall outcome would have been different. 

 

Jesus your argument isn't just falling apart it is nearing insanity. 

[Bermuda Triangle]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Well of course if different things had happened the overall outcome would have been different. 

 

Jesus your argument isn't just falling apart it is nearing insanity. 

Nothing substantive in response - just another ad hominem attack.  

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Nothing substantive in response - just another ad hominem attack.  

 

What substantive points did you want to the question "if different things had happened would your opinion be different?"

 

Seriously.

[Bermuda Triangle]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

What substantive points did you want to the question "if different things had happened would your opinion be different?"

 

Seriously.

Is the crux of your argument that the Bills defense didn't play poorly against the Colts solely because the Colts didn't score their season average in PPG?

[wppete]

Yeah I think we will see a lot more aggressive Defense this year…

 

But all the talking heads on ESPN and cable TV have been telling us Leslie Frazier just walked away for 1 year and will return next year 😂... Cmon no one in their right minds believe this. 

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Is the crux of your argument that the Bills defense didn't play poorly against the Colts solely because the Colts didn't score their season average in PPG?

 

It is that they didn't play poorly because they largely kept the Colts infront of them, stopped them when they needed to and ultimately held a good offense below its seasonal average. Had a few critical moments in the game gone the other way then of course I might look back on it differently. That is the nature of sport. In the KC Divisional Round game the Bills had a 3rd down on the Chiefs penultimate drive (the one where Hill scored the long touchdown). If the Bills stop them there they likely run out the clock, win holding the high powered Kansas City Chiefs to 26 in a home playoff game. Does anyone then say the defense was terrible that day? But they didn't. And they gave up 42 points. That is the fact. So you have to judge what actually happened not an alternate reality where plays that the Bills made weren't made or plays that the Colts didn't make were made, or vice versa in the Chiefs game. 90% of professional level sporting contests have 2 or 3 critical moments in a game that if they go the other way change the complexiton, the outcome and the long range perspective. Yesterday if Alejandro Garnacho was 1 inch further back Manchester United win away at Arsenal for the first time in 6 years and are above them in the league. But he wasn't. Goal not given. Arsenal go down the other end and score and win. Today their manager's negative gameplan is panned. It very nearly worked. But it didn't. That is sport. We can only deal with the realities of what did happen. Counter factuals don't move the needle.

Edited September 4, 2023 by GunnerBill

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is that they didn't play poorly because they largely kept the Colts infront of them, stopped them when they needed to and ultimately held a good offense below its seasonal average. Had a few critical moments in the game gone the other way then of course I might look back on it differently. That is the nature of sport. In the KC Divisional Round game the Bills had a 3rd down on the Chiefs penultimate drive (the one where Hill scored the long touchdown). If the Bills stop them there they likely run out the clock, win holding the high powered Kansas City Chiefs to 26 in a home playoff game. Does anyone then say the defense was terrible that day? But they didn't. And they gave up 42 points. That is the fact. So you have to judge what actually happened not an alternate reality where plays that the Bills made weren't made or plays that the Colts didn't make were made, or vice versa in the Chiefs game. 90% of professional level sporting contests have 2 or 3 critical moments in a game that if they go the other way change the complexiton, the outcome and the long range perspective. Yesterday if Alejandro Garnacho was 1 inch further back Manchester United win away at Arsenal for the first time in 6 years and are above them in the league. But he wasn't. Goal not given. Arsenal go down the other end and score and win. That is sport. We can only deal with the realities of what did happen. Counter factuals don't move the needle.

 

 

Agree.........people forget that for about 58 minutes they had kept the Chiefs in relative check.

 

The narrative is that the defense was just horrendous that day..........but the more accurate explanation is that the Chiefs ended up with 2 extra offensive possessions by virtue of the flip of a coin.........that doesn't happen very often.........and in the end that was the biggest factor in the Bills defeat.   

[BarleyNY]

21 minutes ago, wppete said:

Yeah I think we will see a lot more aggressive Defense this year…

 

But all the talking heads on ESPN and cable TV have been telling us Leslie Frazier just walked away for 1 year and will return next year 😂... Cmon no one in their right minds believe this. 

 

For me the Bills defense is the most interesting thing to watch this season. I’m also interested in seeing how some players perform and how the offense develops, but how McDermott changes the defense and how it reflects his personality are #1 to me. 

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Agree.........people forget that for about 58 minutes they had kept the Chiefs in relative check.

 

The narrative is that the defense was just horrendous that day..........but the more accurate explanation is that the Chiefs ended up with 2 extra offensive possessions by virtue of the flip of a coin.........that doesn't happen very often.........and in the end that was the biggest factor in the Bills defeat.   

Horrendous is too strong but giving up 9/14 on third and 4th down isn't good

[wppete]

10 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

For me the Bills defense is the most interesting thing to watch this season. I’m also interested in seeing how some players perform and how the offense develops, but how McDermott changes the defense and how it reflects his personality are #1 to me. 

Yeah I agree. We should see a lot more blitzes and creative games upfront. Excited to see what he has planned.

[BarleyNY]

1 minute ago, wppete said:

Yeah I agree. We should see a lot more blitzes and creative games upfront. Excited to see what he has planned.

We could see huge changes in style and/or scheme or virtually nothing. I do think that there will be changes, but I couldn’t do more than guess what they’ll be. 

[BADOLBILZ]

16 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Horrendous is too strong but giving up 9/14 on third and 4th down isn't good

 

Yeah but it was the hottest combination of offense's to ever meet in a playoff game........never been anything like that with 2 teams entering the game coming off 40 point games.

 

The 2020 AFCCG and the loss to KC and the Bengals playoff loss are less excusable performances defensively.    Exhaustion wasn't a factor in either of those meltdowns and the Bengals were even playing a rag-tag offensive line.    That game rightfully was the last for Leslie.

[BobbyC81]

On 9/3/2023 at 11:59 AM, k2mountain said:

Yeah. 13 seconds, his advanced age, and his "taking a year off" are going to be difficult to overcome.

 

Owners want to hire young and creative offense minded coaches. They want to hire the next Mike McDaniel.

I’ll go to my urn not understanding the last 13 seconds game last play before the tying FG.   They call timeout and then nobody picks up Kelce as he runs right between 2 defenders.  Ugh!

[GoBills808]

8 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Yeah but it was the hottest combination of offense's to ever meet in a playoff game........never been anything like that with 2 teams entering the game coming off 40 point games.

 

The 2020 AFCCG and the loss to KC and the Bengals playoff loss are less excusable performances defensively.    Exhaustion wasn't a factor in either of those meltdowns and the Bengals were even playing a rag-tag offensive line.    That game rightfully was the last for Leslie.

Agree that game was very much an outlier and I don't expect you can glean much about the defense in isolation...both teams were just landing haymakers left and right

 

for me it wasn't so much that the defense was terrible, but the fact that even if they were just a little better a la the performances the Bengals defense seem to be able to summon in the right moments the Bills would and should have won that game

 

anyway it's in the past and hopefully it stays there

[Brand J]

3 minutes ago, BobbyC81 said:

I’ll go to my urn not understanding the last 13 seconds game last play before the tying FG.   They call timeout and then nobody picks up Kelce as he runs right between 2 defenders.  Ugh!

And had McD NOT called those defensive TOs that seemingly never work, Mahomes and Kelce wouldn’t have had the time to discuss how the Bills were playing and how they’d attack that look if run again. Kelce would’ve had to run the route Mahomes was expecting in real time and the result might’ve been different. If only Jerry Hughes could’ve got there a half a second faster…

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

48 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

We could see huge changes in style and/or scheme or virtually nothing. I do think that there will be changes, but I couldn’t do more than guess what they’ll be. 

Was there some game or two over the past several years that Sean took over for Leslie mid game? 
 

I remember he pulled milano aside and had him start attacking the gap downhill on that pats toss running play that was killing em. Seemed to work. 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[sven233]

Defense in the NFL has evolved a ton over the years.  It's partly because of the rules and partly because of just how good QBs have gotten.  It's so much tougher to just throw a defense out there and blitz the heck out of a QB and beat them physically.  Offensive schemes, film study, coaching, and the physical abilities of these QBs, especially the great ones, have them knowing exactly where and when to throw the ball no matter where the pressure is coming from.  You send the house, you are going to get burned more than you would have a decade+ ago. 

 

That said, while the Tampa 2 defense that Frazier, and several other coordinators have played for a while now, are becoming a lot less effective as well, again just because of how good these QBs are getting.  Going to sit back and not allow teams to beat you over the top?  Again, the top QBs are so good that they will just sit back in the pocket and pick you apart underneath and outside the numbers.  Sure, this type of defense still can work against average to below average QBs.  Frazier has proven that over the last few years.  That is why our defense was consistently ranked high season over season.  During the season, you play enough QBs that aren't quite good enough physically to beat you play after play all the way down the field.  However, that is why we have also been shredded in the Playoffs.  All of a sudden, you are playing the best of the best when it comes to QBs in the Playoffs and they are more than equipped to physically and mentally dissect that bend but don't break defense as they are more than willing to take what you give them underneath and dink and dunk you to death.

 

So, what do you do on defense in today's NFL to try and slow down these great QBs?  It's the million dollar question.  If you can't blitz the heck out of them, and you can't sit back and wait for them to make a mistake, what do you do?  In my opinion it's neither.  Today, more than ever, the NFL has become a chess match between the offense and defense.  Offenses are literally scheming up plays to get certain players the ball on a certain part of the field on a regular basis.  Defenses are trying to find a way to keep up with these offensive schemes and designs and, unfortunately, playing defense there is only so much you can do in trying to react to what the offense is doing to you.  Offenses can do so much more schematically to try and force the defenses hand.

 

But that goes back to what can defenses do to try and stop these innovative offenses.  If it's me, I'm scheming offenses right back.  Instead of sending everyone on a blitz or sitting back and covering deep, I'm using simulated pressures and disguised coverages more than ever before and not allowing QBs to know what I'm doing before the snap.  I'm doing whatever I can to make the QBs think that there is going to be extra pressure coming on every play and only actually sending that pressure occasionally.  I'm showing different looks pre-snap every play and dropping into a different coverage post-snap all while showing these different simulated pressure packages and making these QBs try and figure it all out while dropping back to pass.  Instead of a physical grind on these QBs, in a league where you can hardly breathe on them anyway, I am going to try and beat them down mentally.  All it takes is to find a way to make these great QBs make a couple of mistakes a game to change the outcome.  Games against great teams and great QBs are more often than not super close and the difference comes down to those 1 or 2 big plays in a game that can change everything.

 

The days of just physically beating up a QB are just gone (except for Mike White......shout out to that guy's toughness) and just sitting back waiting for these top QBs to make a mistake are long gone.  It's time to test them mentally.  Sure, the good ones are still going to beat you on some plays.  They're that good.  But, making them process so much information on every single play could take it's toll mentally throughout the course of a game that it forces them to make some big mistakes as well.  I think in today's league, against this level of talent we are seeing at the QB position, this is the best you can hope for.  You just have to hope your superstar is better than their superstar.  And with Allen being the athletic freak he is, I'll take my chances against anyone.

Edited September 5, 2023 by sven233

[BarleyNY]

31 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Was there some game or two over the past several years that Sean took over for Leslie mid game? 
 

I remember he pulled milano aside and had him start attacking the gap downhill on that pats toss running play that was killing em. Seemed to work. 

 

I know that it happened, but I’m not sure how often. 

[Ramza86]

Fraizer has had the trash Tampa 2 for many years. 

 

Bend but dont break was good 20 years ago.

 

For us, its getting early stops or big turnovers. Who cares if we get scored on quickly......our offense is supposed to outplay any defense. 

 

 

[Bills!Win!]

Tremaine  Edmunds is going to miss out on a Super Bowl ring. His loss

[boyst]

On 9/3/2023 at 3:00 PM, RobbRiddick said:

I sure hope we don't end up revisiting his thread with comments like "looks like Fraizer wasn't the problem after all" if it ends up being even worse under McD

 

 

 

 

 

 

How aggressive were his defenses in Carolina?

They were active, fast, smart. We aren't fast. Let's hope we are active. 

 

 

And re the op.

We will be just as disappointed in mcd as we are Frazier in the ebd

Edited September 5, 2023 by boyst

[Behindenemylines]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Horrendous is too strong but giving up 9/14 on third and 4th down isn't good

It is good when you give the receivers 30 yard cushions.  We should have been 0/14

[BarleyNY]

36 minutes ago, Bills!Win! said:

Tremaine  Edmunds is going to miss out on a Super Bowl ring. His loss

He’s getting $72M. I think he’ll be okay whether he ever gets to a SB or not. 

[Bermuda Triangle]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is that they didn't play poorly because they largely kept the Colts infront of them, stopped them when they needed to and ultimately held a good offense below its seasonal average. Had a few critical moments in the game gone the other way then of course I might look back on it differently. That is the nature of sport. In the KC Divisional Round game the Bills had a 3rd down on the Chiefs penultimate drive (the one where Hill scored the long touchdown). If the Bills stop them there they likely run out the clock, win holding the high powered Kansas City Chiefs to 26 in a home playoff game. Does anyone then say the defense was terrible that day? But they didn't. And they gave up 42 points. That is the fact. So you have to judge what actually happened not an alternate reality where plays that the Bills made weren't made or plays that the Colts didn't make were made, or vice versa in the Chiefs game. 90% of professional level sporting contests have 2 or 3 critical moments in a game that if they go the other way change the complexiton, the outcome and the long range perspective. Yesterday if Alejandro Garnacho was 1 inch further back Manchester United win away at Arsenal for the first time in 6 years and are above them in the league. But he wasn't. Goal not given. Arsenal go down the other end and score and win. Today their manager's negative gameplan is panned. It very nearly worked. But it didn't. That is sport. We can only deal with the realities of what did happen. Counter factuals don't move the needle.

For the purposes of this discussion, we can ignore that the Colts had 5 D/ST TDs and 3 safeties that season (so their offensive PPG was not 28).  The ultimate goal of the Bills defense should have been to get the Bills offense the ball as much as possible, not to let Indy dictate the game.  The Bills' strength was their offense - the same offense that set a franchise record for points in a season.  I'm sure that Reich was thrilled that his offense was able to keep the Bills offense off of the field for over 34:00.    If you're happy with a defensive performance with zero sacks, zero turnovers forced, nearly 65% 3rd down conversion percentage, and 34:00+ TOP allowed, then great.  Personally, I want the best unit of the team on the field as much as possible.

 

Yes, If the Bills had covered Kelce on that 3rd and 10, or Hill a couple of plays later (what happened to that old "bend but don't break"?), then (assuming KC didn't convert on the ensuing 4th down, or later on that drive) they would have held KC to 26 points.  Unfortunately, games aren't 58:00 minutes long, and although I've never been a professional coach, my amateur opinion is that the opponent's two best receivers should probably be covered. Of course, the very next week, the unheralded Cincinnati defense held the same KC offense to 24 points, on the road, in over 60:00 of play.

 

Anyhow, given your impassioned defense of Frazier's defenses with the Bills, I'm sure that he'll have GMs knocking down his door next offseason with DC offers.  Right?

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

 

Anyhow, given your impassioned defense of Frazier's defenses with the Bills, I'm sure that he'll have GMs knocking down his door next offseason with DC offers.  Right?

 

If Leslie Frazier wants to be a DC in the NFL in 2024 he will have plenty of offers, yes. 

[Aussie Joe]

24 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If Leslie Frazier wants to be a DC in the NFL in 2024 he will have plenty of offers, yes. 

I’ll be surprised …He isn’t going to make that last playoff game go away..