Vikings Chad Greenway takes shot at Leslie Frazier defense

[Dr.Sack]

I see the defense staying the same as we seem to be preferinf zone covers over guys who play press man.

 

Unless McD surprises teams with subpackages that deploy more variety, I think this is the same defense.

[BillsShredder83]

8 hours ago, BillzFreak said:

That's what I was thinking during watching how we played defense, Jim Johnson ran a bunch of exotic and disguised blitzes. So watching this team sit back time and time again with a head coach who supposedly is a Jim Johnson protégé has been odd. I understand every coach has tweaks and puts there own spin on how they run things but it seems McDermott has gotten away from most of what he learned under Johnson. So hopefully this is the year he goes back and actually becomes aggressive with the defense. 

Even if McD has been half or more complicit in the soft defense, I'd like to think he's really learned enough to start taking a loss on his shield "throwing punches". As opposed to sitting back in the pocket losing rounds 10-9 in hopes of not getting knocked out. 

 

Were a top scoring offense, make teams try to go score for score with us until they make a mistake. Other offenses can't score like we can. Worst thing we can do is allow for long scoring drives, lessening total possessions each team has per game. 

 

If each team is having 14+ possessions per game (current avg is 12), I like our odds of outscoring them at worst case scenario. At best case scenario, our increased pressure leads to other teams having to outscore us, WHILE having a net negative in turnovers. 

Edited September 4, 2023 by BillsShredder83

[Ethan in Cleveland]

How does McD the HC get a pass if his DC is not being aggressive enough? Isn’t it McD’s job to make sure his coordinators are doing a good job.

 

[LABILLBACKER]

9 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

It’s the thing I’m most excited about this season.  Seeing the defense under McD rather than Loosey Frazier 

I agree. I just hope it's what we have been waiting for. Never liked Leslie's soft zone yet last year we were #2 in the league in points allowed.  It just never translates to the playoffs?  I don't have the answer but I'm optimistic if Von comes back healthy and Sean turns up the heat.

[Rigotz]

Id like to officially throw “bend but don’t break” defense in the same trash pile as “blue collar, high motor defensive ends” like Chris Kelsey and Ryan Denney.

[McDeerInTheHeadlights]

8 hours ago, MikePJ76 said:

is this a quote from like 10 years ago?

 

Doesn't seem relevant to me.  They didn't really get much better with zimmer's aggressive defense the next season.  

 

I have never believed Frazier was not doing in part what McDermott wanted.  If you become a head coach based on something you did to get you hired you are not just going to let someone else run that unit without your final say on things.

time will tell and hopefully they pick their spots to be more aggressive but I am not anticipating this large change many seem to believe is coming.

 

I would tend to agree.

 

Besides, it would have simply been negligent on McD's part to just stand there and witness his defense being sliced up time and time again by top offenses if he had such a radically different idea.

 

I'm anticipating some changes, hopefully more aggressiveness (not that it takes much) but not the night and day contrast that some seem to expect.

[RiotAct]

9 hours ago, co_springs_billsfan said:

Leslie so classy he probably just ADDED Greenway to the Christmas card list 

ugh, why does he have to be so frigging nice?

[HappyCat]

9 hours ago, HaldimandBills said:

This brings joy. My biggest issue with our defense is watching top tier QB's laugh at our Tampa 2 defense as they march up and down the field on us.

 

I dont mind giving up the odd big play against superior offenses when they'll inevitably score anyways after a 12 play drive. I'd rather risk some creativity and force turnovers and stops. It's been gut wrenching watching DeShaun Watson, Philip Rivers, Patrick Mahomes, Joe Burrow, and to some extent Skylar Thompson marching up and down on this soft zone defense. 

 

There has to be something said for a defense who let's QB's take easy throws and get in a throwing groove. Make them work for their receptions. 

The Super Bowl teams in the 90's played the same soft defense in every game.  Bennet & Smith were handled easily.  I hated it when Kelso played 20-25 yards deep and still couldn't make tackles/

[Buffalo Barbarian]

10 hours ago, DJB said:

 

 

amen to that !!! I never wanted that defense here and its it time to get after it. We may ranked lower on defense but we will be a better defense that doesnt get run over and play soft on third and long.

 

[Sierra Foothills]

1 hour ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

How does McD the HC get a pass if his DC is not being aggressive enough? Isn’t it McD’s job to make sure his coordinators are doing a good job.

 

 

I have not seen people around here giving McDermott a free pass. Most of the comments have been that the Bills defensive failings in key playoff situations is on him... accentuated by the fact of him calling strategic time outs to poor results.

 

The only credit I see people giving McDermott is that he's doing the right thing by taking over the defensive helm and graphically taking responsibility for that side of the ball... removing any separation between himself and accountability.

 

 

[Mc1320]

With its passive rush 4 and drop 7 philosophy, this defense has looked nothing like the attacking, bad ass defenses that Jim Johnson had in Philly when McD was there.  That dude was a mad scientist when it came to generating creative blitzes.

 

Edmonds couldn’t read, react and plug a hole on a run play to save his life…hopefully we can get Kirksey acclimated quickly and go on the attack.

[That's No Moon]

2 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

How does McD the HC get a pass if his DC is not being aggressive enough? Isn’t it McD’s job to make sure his coordinators are doing a good job.

 

I'd love to know exactly at which points Happy Claps took over the play calling for the last couple years.  It's happened, they've copped to some of them, I just wonder if we've only heard about it when it went well.

 

Don't take this as defense of Frazier's defense. I hated it and I hate the philosophy in general. I agree with others who have said that it works really well against average to poor QBs. As soon as you face a QB that's willing to take what you give him, and can deliver the ball to the correct place accurately, they pick it apart. 

[Richard Noggin]

11 hours ago, HaldimandBills said:

This brings joy. My biggest issue with our defense is watching top tier QB's laugh at our Tampa 2 defense as they march up and down the field on us.

 

I dont mind giving up the odd big play against superior offenses when they'll inevitably score anyways after a 12 play drive. I'd rather risk some creativity and force turnovers and stops. It's been gut wrenching watching DeShaun Watson, Philip Rivers, Patrick Mahomes, Joe Burrow, and to some extent Skylar Thompson marching up and down on this soft zone defense. 

 

There has to be something said for a defense who let's QB's take easy throws and get in a throwing groove. Make them work for their receptions. 

 

Aside from most of 2020 (when our OL ranked fairly highly and Josh was Mister Zen, this is what defenses have decided NOT to do against Josh Allen). Turns out Allen will effing kill you like a barbarous surgeon savant if you let him operate free from duress. So teams have since mixed in all kinds of attacks, to all kinds of mixed results (mostly still in Buffalo's favor, but pressure and variety IS essential to speeding up Josh Allen's processing and getting him to turn the ball over). 

 

I'd like to see the Bills defense ALSO attempt to actively disrupt an elite QB's mental processing with variety and aggression. Seems to be more effective than backing off and surrendering plays. 

[That's No Moon]

6 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

Aside from most of 2020 (when our OL ranked fairly highly and Josh was Mister Zen, this is what defenses have decided NOT to do against Josh Allen). Turns out Allen will effing kill you like a barbarous surgeon savant if you let him operate free from duress. So teams have since mixed in all kinds of attacks, to all kinds of mixed results (mostly still in Buffalo's favor, but pressure and variety IS essential to speeding up Josh Allen's processing and getting him to turn the ball over). 

It increases the odds of Dumb Josh showing up. Dumb Josh is a very frustrating person and as Josh gets older and is less able to run around and create something from nothing or defy all logic and reason Smart Josh is going to have to learn how to suppress Dumb Josh a lot better.

[Richard Noggin]

8 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

It increases the odds of Dumb Josh showing up. Dumb Josh is a very frustrating person and as Josh gets older and is less able to run around and create something from nothing or defy all logic and reason Smart Josh is going to have to learn how to suppress Dumb Josh a lot better.

 

Harsh, but true.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

4 hours ago, That's No Moon said:

I'd love to know exactly at which points Happy Claps took over the play calling for the last couple years.  It's happened, they've copped to some of them, I just wonder if we've only heard about it when it went well.

 

Don't take this as defense of Frazier's defense. I hated it and I hate the philosophy in general. I agree with others who have said that it works really well against average to poor QBs. As soon as you face a QB that's willing to take what you give him, and can deliver the ball to the correct place accurately, they pick it apart. 

Agree.

Except why do you call it Frazier's defense? That's my point. It was always McDermott's defense just Leslie calling the plays. 

I don’t understand why people think it will be any different. 

As I said at the time, the only thing that is exciting is McDermott has total accountability good or bad this year on how the defense performs. 

[NewEra]

8 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

I see the defense staying the same as we seem to be preferinf zone covers over guys who play press man.

 

Unless McD surprises teams with subpackages that deploy more variety, I think this is the same defense.

I think it will be the same with regards to principles.  I think it will be different with regards to play calling, disguise, sub packages and just overall aggressiveness

[Milano]

This defense if going to be very good with McD taking over.

 

Remember Josh Allen's first career start in 2018? Chargers-Phillip Rivers week 2, (corner retired at halftime game)?

They lost big, 47-3 to Ravens in week 1, The Bills were were again down big, something like 26-3 at halftime. At halftime, McD took over defensive calls from Frazier and the Bills defense was like a completely different team.... absolutely lights out in the second half, (and for the remainder of the season) they should have won that game actually. (sh*yt call on a strip sack). 

 

Dude can coach! Go Bills!

17 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

It’s the thing I’m most excited about this season.  Seeing the defense under McD rather than Loosey Frazier 

 

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

15 hours ago, Billsflyer12 said:

Doesn’t help that all the WNY media just bend the knee to the team.  They are either literally employees or so scared of making anyone in the organization even minimally uncomfortable to actually begin to hold anyone even remotely accountable.

Sounds like a Jerry Sullivan comeback is in order 😂

[BillsFan2313]

17 hours ago, SCBills said:

Old and slow now .. next year might be young and inexperienced .. there’s always a reason to keep the status quo.  
 

It’s time to change, and I really hope we see Carolina McDermott in this Defense. 

Perhaps, but we have quotes from our players that make it sound like it will be different. 

 

And evidence from when he was a DC

16 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think the predictability is a much better point than the aggression. Even the creative things they did do in terms of some of their coverage matching (although they could do less of that once the Hyde and Poyer axis was broken) and the double A gap blitz look that they used to drop and flood zones from teams just got a bit used to them after 6 seasons of the same coordinator. 

 

Remember go back to 2019 and Bill Belichick no less was saying no defense in the NFL disguises its looks better than Buffalo. It just gets hard when you have had the same DC and a lot of the same core players - White, Poyer, Hyde, Edmunds, Johnson, Milano even Oliver together 4,5,6 seasons - to keep things fresh and to keep evolving. Teams are going to study film on you and find ways to break down what you do. 

 

I get that the D did not play well v the Bengals in the playoffs. But they held Miami to two drives of more than 30 yards in the entire game in the Wildcard and ended the regular season as a top 5 defense despite all their injuries. It was a hell of a coaching job. I think McDermott will call plays differently because no two play callers are ever the same even if the scheme is similar and that might break some tendencies that offenses had keyed in on under Frazier. Hopefully it does refresh what we are doing a bit. I just wonder if it might be undermined by the glaring hole at MLB.

 

Against a 3rd string QB. This should be expected. 

[GunnerBill]

15 minutes ago, BillsFan2313 said:

 

Against a 3rd string QB. This should be expected. 

 

Sure. Did we play 3rd string QBs all season? 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Defense in today's NFL is so difficult.  People say be aggressive.  But elite QBs statistically thrive against the blitz. We would like nothing better than opposing tema to blitz Josh. Elite QBs make big plays vs the blitz. 

The challenge is always can you make enough big plays on defense or do you opt to keep everything in front of you and hope opponent makes a mistake such as a penalty or dropped ball. 

The fan in us says apply the pressure. 

The analytics probably say rush 4 and drop 7 wins most of the time. 

 

In the end, we just need Allen to outscore them.  That doesn't mean be foolish and go for it on every fourth down or stop kicking FGs. It means do everything you can to make Josh's job easy and get the ball in the hands of Diggs, Knox, and Kincaid early and often.

[Rockinon]

The Bills will Blitz only occasionally. The reason they don't do it more is because it leaves one less person out in coverage. Do it too much and then it becomes expected and any decent QB will find his dump off target before the D can get there. One thing I like about when the Bills do blitz, it's always a surprise and more often than not, it works very well. Everyone who is wishing for more blitzes, careful for what you wish for. I do believe McD will take more chances than Frazier, but only minimally.

 

I would like to point out though that there is a very good chance that McD may not have to blitz more to be successful. Von Miller wasn't the only injury along the defensive line. There were other key contributors that missed time. Also, it is not out of the realm of possibility that some of the young talent on the line have a break out season. I believe the defense could very well be more aggressive without the need for sending a blitz. If this Dline stays relatively healthy this year, it is going to appear that they are more aggressive, but with less of a need to blitz often.

[BarleyNY]

18 hours ago, DJB said:

 

 

That is not a picture of Chad Greenway. Also, how old is this quote? Frazier hasn’t been in Minnesota for decade. 

[Steptide]

Wonder why he threw in Fraizers name. He Coulda just said the Tampa 2 defense 

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Defense in today's NFL is so difficult.  People say be aggressive.  But elite QBs statistically thrive against the blitz. We would like nothing better than opposing tema to blitz Josh. Elite QBs make big plays vs the blitz. 

The challenge is always can you make enough big plays on defense or do you opt to keep everything in front of you and hope opponent makes a mistake such as a penalty or dropped ball. 

The fan in us says apply the pressure. 

The analytics probably say rush 4 and drop 7 wins most of the time. 

 

In the end, we just need Allen to outscore them.  That doesn't mean be foolish and go for it on every fourth down or stop kicking FGs. It means do everything you can to make Josh's job easy and get the ball in the hands of Diggs, Knox, and Kincaid early and often.

 

Excellent post. And the fact is they HAVE had success against Mahomes blitzing him zero times on one occassion and I think just twice another. They just haven't played their best football on defense against KC and Cincy in the playoffs. Against Cincy they don't have the regular season proof that they can do it either, I get that. But the fact is in the NFL it is a lot about playing your best come playoff time. The Bills haven't managed that on defense yet but I don't think that is nearly as much on gameplans as it is on execution. You can't heavily blitz the elite guys they eat you up.

4 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

 

That is not a picture of Chad Greenway. Also, how old is this quote? Frazier hasn’t been in Minnesota for decade. 

 

Yea it is an old quote they have dug up to pile on Leslie. Cos that is the cool thing to do these days. He is responsible for all the Bills' ills in recent years. And he probably caused Covid. I bet he has ranch on his wings too. 

[BarleyNY]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea it is an old quote they have dug up to pile on Leslie. Cos that is the cool thing to do these days. He is responsible for all the Bills' ills in recent years. And he probably caused Covid. I bet he has ranch on his wings too. 

 

It’s amazing how horrible every ex-Bill coach and player is - after they’re gone.

[DJB]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Excellent post. And the fact is they HAVE had success against Mahomes blitzing him zero times on one occassion and I think just twice another. They just haven't played their best football on defense against KC and Cincy in the playoffs. Against Cincy they don't have the regular season proof that they can do it either, I get that. But the fact is in the NFL it is a lot about playing your best come playoff time. The Bills haven't managed that on defense yet but I don't think that is nearly as much on gameplans as it is on execution. You can't heavily blitz the elite guys they eat you up.

Only fans that are out of touch with the game want a heavy blitz. But it’s not unreasonable to mix them in from time to time to keep the offense honest and on their toes and make our D less predictable 

 

I think I also want to see less times where we see the DB’s 10 yards off the line of scrimmage especially in short yardage situations. Those were baffling to me and clearly evident in the Bengals game. Can’t happen again 

Edited September 4, 2023 by DJB

[MikePJ76]

9 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

It’s amazing how horrible every ex-Bill coach and player is - after they’re gone.

This happens all over.  Its not team specific.

 

Generally when defensive coaches get fired or leave....the new guy is always more aggressive and uses more diverse fronts etc...

When offensive coaches are fired the new guy is always more multiple and uses space more in his offense and will bring college concepts etc..

 

its all nonsense.  

 

It will always be about the jimmy and joe's more than the X's and the O's.  

 

The great coaches keep players/teams focused and interested.  They make the game easier for the players and they situationally are excellent play callers/schemers.

Edited September 4, 2023 by MikePJ76

[Bermuda Triangle]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Sure. Did we play 3rd string QBs all season? 

Zach Wilson set a career high for completion percentage against the Bills last season.

[BillsFan130]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Sure. Did we play 3rd string QBs all season? 

There’s no argument that he had very good regular season defences.

 

But he objectively had horrible defences in the playoffs. Historically bad

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

There’s no argument that he had very good regular season defences.

 

But he objectively had horrible defences in the playoffs. Historically bad

 

Historically bad??

[stinky finger]

DOWN GOES FRAZIER!!

[BillsFan130]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Historically bad??

In their elimination games, yes.

 

Bengals had 30 first downs. It broke some sort of record- I can’t remember if it was a franchised based record or what not.

 

Chiefs- 42 points. 30 first downs. 552 yards of offence .

 

Thats 60 first downs let up in your last 2 elimination games combined and just under 1000 yards of offence🤢

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

In their elimination games, yes.

 

Bengals had 30 first downs. It broke some sort of record- I can’t remember if it was a franchised based record or what not.

 

Chiefs- 42 points. 30 first downs. 552 yards of offence .

 

Thats 60 first downs let up in your last 2 elimination games combined and just under 1000 yards of offence🤢

 

Oh okay so historically bad if we only count two games. Got it. 

 

Nobody is denying they have played badly in those two games.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

8 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

In their elimination games, yes.

 

Bengals had 30 first downs. It broke some sort of record- I can’t remember if it was a franchised based record or what not.

 

Chiefs- 42 points. 30 first downs. 552 yards of offence .

 

Thats 60 first downs let up in your last 2 elimination games combined and just under 1000 yards of offence🤢

Isnt every game in the playoffs an elimination game? What about the game changing INT returned for a TD by Taron Johnson? That's a top 3 play in franchise history. And how about the Hyde end-zone INT at home against the Patriots? 

No doubt defense choked away a win against Houston and 13 seconds. Cinci last year was an aberration. Bills were down so many players and emotionally spent. 

Still want to see more from the stars on D. This playoff season need to see Miller, Rousseau, Oliver, White, and Milano step up.

[WhoTom]

6 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Defense in today's NFL is so difficult.  People say be aggressive.  But elite QBs statistically thrive against the blitz. We would like nothing better than opposing tema to blitz Josh. Elite QBs make big plays vs the blitz. 

The challenge is always can you make enough big plays on defense or do you opt to keep everything in front of you and hope opponent makes a mistake such as a penalty or dropped ball. 

The fan in us says apply the pressure. 

The analytics probably say rush 4 and drop 7 wins most of the time. 

 

In the end, we just need Allen to outscore them.  That doesn't mean be foolish and go for it on every fourth down or stop kicking FGs. It means do everything you can to make Josh's job easy and get the ball in the hands of Diggs, Knox, and Kincaid early and often.

 

That reads like an endorsement of a bend but don't break defense.

[stinky finger]

23 hours ago, MikePJ76 said:

is this a quote from like 10 years ago?

 

Doesn't seem relevant to me.  They didn't really get much better with zimmer's aggressive defense the next season.  

 

I have never believed Frazier was not doing in part what McDermott wanted.  If you become a head coach based on something you did to get you hired you are not just going to let someone else run that unit without your final say on things.

time will tell and hopefully they pick their spots to be more aggressive but I am not anticipating this large change many seem to believe is coming.

 

While this might be true, I'd have to think McDermott knows the previous formula hasn't worked. Especially in big games vs prime opposition.

 

If he's smart, and I think he is, he'll adjust - perhaps noticeably (ie. aggressive).

[Bermuda Triangle]

27 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

In their elimination games, yes.

 

Bengals had 30 first downs. It broke some sort of record- I can’t remember if it was a franchised based record or what not.

 

Chiefs- 42 points. 30 first downs. 552 yards of offence .

 

Thats 60 first downs let up in your last 2 elimination games combined and just under 1000 yards of offence🤢

The D was pretty horrible against a washed up Philip Rivers in the WC win in the 2020 playoffs.

[stinky finger]

23 hours ago, Dan in Owego said:

This is completely true but we hashed this out on here last January, I would like to see an approach like Spags. Top 15 ish during the year but more unpredictable and risk taking in the playoffs. 

 

Frazier the coach and man I have respect for and no need to beat him down, just seems like the right time for some tweaks.

 

Thanks - disagreeing or disliking his play calls isn't hating on the guy. He's an absolute gentleman and has run some good D's. It just wasn't working here, especially n big games. Tough to argue that.

23 hours ago, BillzFreak said:

I understand the game changes, but to really not be aggressive at all, even in today's NFL you have to be multiple. It just seemed to me, we were content on playing the same way over and over again. Yes it has lead to being a top 10 defense year after year but having no counter punch ability in the playoffs has been a big downside of these teams lately.

 

This

 

Successful teams adjust. Our biggest issue last year (on the field) was predictability. On BOTH sides of the ball.