Kirksey signing with the Bills PS

[Beck Water]

3 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I think the Beane was really going to resign Edmunds. All indications pointed that way. Thinking he might even take a slight discount to stay in Buffalo

Things changed when the Bears massively overpaid for him. At that point, there's no way Beane could resign him. 

Now Beane had to make another tough decision on Oliver. That decision was made much easier with the departure of Edmunds. Additionally, the Bills are pretty thin in this department too. So it was prudent to sign Oliver on what looks to be a pretty fair level of compensation.

 

It's interesting.  Superficially, Oliver's contract and Edmunds are not too dissimilar. 

 

Oliver: 4 year $68M, $45M guaranteed ($24.5M guaranteed at signing)

Edmunds: 4 year $72M, $50M guaranteed ($36.8M guaranteed at signing)

 

Differences include $12.3M more guaranteed at signing and an extra million a year.  Reportedly, Oliver's language contains offset language (if he is released and signs elsewhere, the Bills subtract his new team's salary from what they owe).

 

I agree that various lines of evidence suggest the Bills wanted to re-sign Edmunds but he went above what they were willing to pay.

 

3 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Free agency is the next option. Seems like the available FA aren't a good fit or really not true MLB.

 

I think there probably were some FA MLB available who were at least as "true" MLB as Dodson and Bernard are.

[RoyBatty is alive]

37 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

He already knows the defense. Roquan Smith started the same week he was traded to Baltimore.

 

Everyone is different. It’ll really depend on his health.

He already knows the defense does he?  Really, how?  And Kirksey isnt any Roquan Smith, not even close.

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

He already knows the defense does he?  Really, how?  And Kirksey isnt any Roquan Smith, not even close.

 

Roquan Smith is a better linebacker but that doesn't mean Kirksey can't pick up a defense quickly.  Guys can pick up a playbook pretty quickly and Kirksey isn't the only late camp cut to start immediately for another team.  Baker Mayfield started for the Rams with just a few days after acquiring him....I assure you a QB's playbook is much more difficult than a MLB.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

12 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

He already knows the defense does he?  Really, how?  And Kirksey isnt any Roquan Smith, not even close.

Played in a similar defense terminology wise in Cleveland. 

[DrDawkinstein]

12 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

He already knows the defense does he?  Really, how?  And Kirksey isnt any Roquan Smith, not even close.

 

Physically, no he is not. But he is the far more experienced vet and already has good experience moving teams and re-learning schemes. Smith only ever knew 1 scheme and was able to jump right into a new scheme.

 

It's not impossible or even unlikely. If it takes him a month, then I'd be concerned about our coaching and/or Kirksey.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, BarleyNY said:

 

I think at this point we’ve seen his ceiling.

 

Deion Jones and Jaylon Smith are still out there. Jones is still a FA and Smith is on a PS. Neither has had a lot of interest this off-season so I’m not sure how much better they’d be than Kirksey. I haven’t seen them play much though. Maybe it is because Kirksey took the deal we were offering to MLBs. I’d be surprised if it was much more than vet minimum plus incentives. 

 

Deion Jones was very very good early in his career.  1st team all pro, DROY, pro bowl.  Did you see anything of him last year in Cleveland?  He's listed as having 5 starts.

 

He was with the Panthers thru training camp but cut on Tuesday.  The contract he signed last spring with the Panthers was just over vet minimum. 

 

Jaylon Smith had been an injury replacement at MLB for the Giants last 2 seasons.  Wound up starting 13 games for them at MLB last year.  Signed with the Saints for vet minimum, cut and now on their practice squad. 

 

 

[BarleyNY]

7 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Deion Jones was very very good early in his career.  1st team all pro, DROY, pro bowl.  Did you see anything of him last year in Cleveland?  He's listed as having 5 starts.

 

He was with the Panthers thru training camp but cut on Tuesday.  The contract he signed last spring with the Panthers was just over vet minimum. 

 

Jaylon Smith had been an injury replacement at MLB for the Giants last 2 seasons.  Wound up starting 13 games for them at MLB last year.  Signed with the Saints for vet minimum, cut and now on their practice squad. 

 

 

 

I don’t really know. Browns fans were excited that he got brought in after Walker got injured, but I had pretty much given up on them by the time he got there. I was more focused on watching the Bills and other, more interesting teams by then. I don’t think that you can appropriately gauge an MLB with Joe Woods running the defense and total garbage at the DT spots anyway. I do know that Jim Schwartz didn’t bring him back this season.

[BillsFanForever19]

2 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

 The Dorian Williams pick is a hard scratcher. Not sure I get it to this day. Maybe, I'm just not that smart. Seems like every draft Beane does a WTF...

 

The Dorian Williams pick is a head scratcher to everyone because everyone was singularly focused on the MLB position. But we also had a need at OLB.

 

The fact is that outside of Matt Milano, we had ZERO OLB's on the roster. So while the MLB's we had were underwhelming, our LB core consisted of 4 MLB's in competition (Bernard, Dodson, Klein, Spector), 1 OLB (Milano), and a Special Teams player who is only technically a LB (Matakevitch).

 

In Rounds 1 & 2, they valued getting a weapon and a starting Offensive Lineman over the MLB position, especially with what was on the board at both picks.

 

When Round 3 started, there were 3 MLB's that could have theoretically pushed Bernard and Dodson and maybe won the job in Drew Sanders, Trenton Simpson, and Daiyan Henley. After them was a MASSIVE drop off in talent in which they felt were probably long term developmental prospects that wouldn't be able to compete and unworthy of selecting in Round 3.

 

All 3 guys got drafted by pick 86. At that point, MLB was out. So looking at the roster, with no MLB on the board left they felt could challenge Dodson, Bernard, Klein, or Spector in Year 1, and having taken care of the last weapon and the last piece of the OL - what was the only real hole left on the roster?

 

An OLB behind Milano.

 

Milano has stayed relatively healthy. But when he's needed a breather or some time, to this point we've had an insane drop off there when he isn't in the lineup. And going into this season, we literally had nothing. Now in Williams, perhaps we have a player that can keep things rolling when Milano needs a breather or God forbid gets hurt.

 

Long story short, Williams was drafted as an OLB. Everyone is confused by it because our MLB's are pedestrian and we were focused on that position. But OLB was a need and that's what he was Drafted for.

Edited August 31, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[Warriorspikes51]

Kirksey has had the honor of being Walter Payton Man of the year nominee on 2 different teams. Not sure if any other players have that distinction.

 

He’s clearly a quality person and his leadership is a welcomed addition to the LB room.

 

he also can be a very effective player in this defense

[Dr. Who]

19 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

The Dorian Williams pick is a head scratcher to everyone because everyone was singularly focused on the MLB position. But we also had a need at OLB.

 

The fact is that outside of Matt Milano, we had ZERO OLB's on the roster. So while the MLB's we had were underwhelming, our LB core consisted of 3 MLB's, 1 OLB, and a Special Teams player who is only technically a LB.

 

In Rounds 1 & 2, they valued getting a weapon and a starting Offensive Lineman over the MLB position, especially with what was on the board at both picks.

 

When Round 3 started, there were 3 MLB's that could have theoretically pushed Bernard and Dodson and maybe won the job in Drew Sanders, Trenton Simpson, and Daiyan Henley. After them was a MASSIVE drop off in talent in which they felt probably wouldn't be able to compete and would be a reach.

 

All 3 guys got drafted by pick 86. At that point, MLB was out. So looking at the roster, with no MLB on the board left they felt could challenge Dodson, Bernard, and Klein in Year 1, and having taken care of the last weapon and the last piece of the OL - what was the only real hole left on the roster?

 

An OLB behind Milano.

 

Milano has stayed relatively healthy. But when he's needed a breather or some time, to this point we've had an insane drop off there when he isn't in the lineup. And going into this season, we literally had nothing. Now in Williams, perhaps we have a player that can keep things rolling when Milano needs a breather or God forbid gets hurt.

 

Long story short, Williams was drafted as an OLB. Everyone is confused by it because our MLB's are pedestrian and we were focused on that position. But OLB was a need and that's what he was Drafted for.

Excellent explanation. The narrative I have more often heard is that MLB is the qb of the defense and it is too much to throw at a rookie. However, I think your rationale is quite persuasive.

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Roquan Smith is a better linebacker but that doesn't mean Kirksey can't pick up a defense quickly.  Guys can pick up a playbook pretty quickly and Kirksey isn't the only late camp cut to start immediately for another team.  Baker Mayfield started for the Rams with just a few days after acquiring him....I assure you a QB's playbook is much more difficult than a MLB.

I’m trying to figure out why people are comparing him to Roquan Smith

 

Roquan Smith should be the better player. He’s certainly being paid more.

 

That doesn’t mean that Kirksey is not a good player in his own, right

 

People seem to forget that our middle linebacker position is a mess like the worst that we have ever seen. Why should they not try to improve the position and why does Kirk so you have to be compared to all pro players

13 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

Kirksey has had the honor of being Walter Payton Man of the year nominee on 2 different teams. Not sure if any other players have that distinction.

 

He’s clearly a quality person and his leadership is a welcomed addition to the LB room.

 

he also can be a very effective player in this defense

It is interesting. I remember there was a poster a while back that asked the question. Where does the leader ship come from this team?
 

Well, Kirksey looks like he could handle that load

[Warriorspikes51]

https://x.com/haprusak/status/1697331191307792658?s=46&t=tTOAq-q5QQ5yQ1o1mKnDgA
 

Micah Hyde is very happy to have him

 

(why does posting this link work normally on my laptop but not my phone??)

Edited August 31, 2023 by Warriorspikes51

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

The Dorian Williams pick is a head scratcher to everyone because everyone was singularly focused on the MLB position. But we also had a need at OLB.

 

The fact is that outside of Matt Milano, we had ZERO OLB's on the roster. So while the MLB's we had were underwhelming, our LB core consisted of 4 MLB's in competition (Bernard, Dodson, Klein, Spector), 1 OLB (Milano), and a Special Teams player who is only technically a LB (Matakevitch).

 

In Rounds 1 & 2, they valued getting a weapon and a starting Offensive Lineman over the MLB position, especially with what was on the board at both picks.

 

When Round 3 started, there were 3 MLB's that could have theoretically pushed Bernard and Dodson and maybe won the job in Drew Sanders, Trenton Simpson, and Daiyan Henley. After them was a MASSIVE drop off in talent in which they felt probably wouldn't be able to compete and would be a reach.

 

All 3 guys got drafted by pick 86. At that point, MLB was out. So looking at the roster, with no MLB on the board left they felt could challenge Dodson, Bernard, and Klein in Year 1, and having taken care of the last weapon and the last piece of the OL - what was the only real hole left on the roster?

 

An OLB behind Milano.

 

Milano has stayed relatively healthy. But when he's needed a breather or some time, to this point we've had an insane drop off there when he isn't in the lineup. And going into this season, we literally had nothing. Now in Williams, perhaps we have a player that can keep things rolling when Milano needs a breather or God forbid gets hurt.

 

Long story short, Williams was drafted as an OLB. Everyone is confused by it because our MLB's are pedestrian and we were focused on that position. But OLB was a need and that's what he was Drafted for.

 

Interesting explanation.

 

It's a fact that when the Bills tried to plug Dodson in for Milano, it did NOT go well.

When the Bills tried to plug AJ Klein in for Milano, someone (might have been @GunnerBill?  Someone who's a respected regular here) called him "the worst LB  I have ever seen".    Fast forward past 2 weeks where Milano is still trying to play and Klein is trying to load share with him.  The Bills admit "this isn't working", they IR Milano, and the Bills defensive brain trust sits down and re-works the defensive responsibilities.

 

BOOM "the worst linebacker I have ever seen" is KILLING Seattle.  4 sacks, a forced fumble he recovered, tackle for loss, pass defensed - AFC Defensive Player of the Week and for the next 3 games he didn't look back.  I guarantee Russ Wilson saw "54" in his sleep for weeks.

 

Anyway, valid point that there has been no "Plan B" to the Guido Torpedo.

 

What I'm not sure about is that the Bills don't see Williams eventually playing MLB.  But they have certainly made it clear, that's not where they see him at present.

[Beck Water]

6 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

https://x.com/haprusak/status/1697331191307792658?s=46&t=tTOAq-q5QQ5yQ1o1mKnDgA
 

Micah Hyde is very happy to have him

 

They played college ball together. 

[Warriorspikes51]

Bold Prediction:  Kirksey makes more impactful plays than Edmunds did and becomes a fan favorite

 

if he can learn the playbook fast enough (he did play under Holcomb in Cleveland) he needs to be starting week 1

[klos63]

21 hours ago, BBFL said:

Theoretically, yes. Body certainly breaks down faster than most people. Also the prospective job market or field you’re in doesn’t have the possibility of being non viable before you even start your adult life…

The correct answer is no. 

 

He's a very suitable age to play MLB in the NFL.

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

The Dorian Williams pick is a head scratcher to everyone because everyone was singularly focused on the MLB position. But we also had a need at OLB.

 

The fact is that outside of Matt Milano, we had ZERO OLB's on the roster. So while the MLB's we had were underwhelming, our LB core consisted of 4 MLB's in competition (Bernard, Dodson, Klein, Spector), 1 OLB (Milano), and a Special Teams player who is only technically a LB (Matakevitch).

 

In Rounds 1 & 2, they valued getting a weapon and a starting Offensive Lineman over the MLB position, especially with what was on the board at both picks.

 

When Round 3 started, there were 3 MLB's that could have theoretically pushed Bernard and Dodson and maybe won the job in Drew Sanders, Trenton Simpson, and Daiyan Henley. After them was a MASSIVE drop off in talent in which they felt probably wouldn't be able to compete and would be a reach.

 

All 3 guys got drafted by pick 86. At that point, MLB was out. So looking at the roster, with no MLB on the board left they felt could challenge Dodson, Bernard, and Klein in Year 1, and having taken care of the last weapon and the last piece of the OL - what was the only real hole left on the roster?

 

An OLB behind Milano.

 

Milano has stayed relatively healthy. But when he's needed a breather or some time, to this point we've had an insane drop off there when he isn't in the lineup. And going into this season, we literally had nothing. Now in Williams, perhaps we have a player that can keep things rolling when Milano needs a breather or God forbid gets hurt.

 

Long story short, Williams was drafted as an OLB. Everyone is confused by it because our MLB's are pedestrian and we were focused on that position. But OLB was a need and that's what he was Drafted for.

 

That's good reasoning.  I will add despite the opinions of a lot of fans (even well-respected posters here) I truly believe Beane and McDermott

see the MLB role changing in the modern NFL to a slightly smaller but quicker player.  They didn't just happen to have a bunch of players like

that on the team for no reason.  I'm not saying Dorian will eventually be that guy but he does fit the mold. 

 

It could be as simple as none of the guys presently on the team can fill the style they hope to find in that position.

Kirksey could be a placeholder and eventual depth once they do find that guy.

[Sierra Foothills]

8 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I think McBeane's philosophy about the position has evolved since drafting Edmunds.   They were running the team with the memory of Keuchle fresh in their minds.  

 

But it's very simple.   If they thought in 2022 and 2023 that middle linebacker was the linchpin in the defense, they would have done something to keep Edmunds or get a high-end replacement.  So far as we can tell, they didn't try at all.  

 

I think what they learned from Edmunds, is that they can have a very good defense without an All-Pro middle linebacker.   Look at the cap room they spent on Miller, Oliver, and Floyd.   There simply can be no question that they believe the game can be played best with talent on the defensive line and less talent at middle linebacker.  Look at the money they spent to re-sign White and keep Poyer, and the draft capital they spent on Elam.  

 

Beane consciously spent more or less nothing on a middle linebacker.  He told us that in his presser.  I don't think there's any question that they're thinking about the defense has evolved since they traded up for Edmunds.  

 

Good post. I believe that they thought Edmunds might be a transcendent player (meaning transcending his positional value) and along with the prior experience with Luke Kuechly caused McBeane to depart from their value chart and draft Edmunds highly.

 

He proved not to be a trandscendent player.

 

8 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

And yet - they just signed a street FA in the hopes that he will step into that role by early season.  And cut outright the guy who was taking starter's reps in the preseason.  

 

Hope is not a plan.

 

Actually hope is often a plan. Every team has roster holes and every team has a position or two where they pin their hopes on a player(s) rising to the occasion and growing into the job. In this case the Bills pinned their hopes on 3 young veterans (Dodson, Bernard, and Spector).

 

It didn't work out partly due to 2 of the players getting injured.

 

6 hours ago, Nephilim17 said:

I agree that recent evidence shows the McBeane don't think that in a passing league MLB is a priority position.

 

But perhaps they had the same or a similar view when they drafted Edmunds but were hoping with his height, reach and speed he could be a unicorn MLB and be a vital asset on the D for the short passing game. But he really wasn't.

 

And now they figure most, if not all MLBs, aren't really a force against passing teams so that's why it's no longer a priority worth much more than low-third-round picks.

 

Exactly... a transcendent player... a unicorn.

 

4 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

I think they were trying to find a Luke Kuechly type like he had in Carolina. It just never materialized. 

 

Agreed.

 

3 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

The Dorian Williams pick is a head scratcher to everyone because everyone was singularly focused on the MLB position. But we also had a need at OLB.

 

The fact is that outside of Matt Milano, we had ZERO OLB's on the roster. So while the MLB's we had were underwhelming, our LB core consisted of 4 MLB's in competition (Bernard, Dodson, Klein, Spector), 1 OLB (Milano), and a Special Teams player who is only technically a LB (Matakevitch).

 

In Rounds 1 & 2, they valued getting a weapon and a starting Offensive Lineman over the MLB position, especially with what was on the board at both picks.

 

When Round 3 started, there were 3 MLB's that could have theoretically pushed Bernard and Dodson and maybe won the job in Drew Sanders, Trenton Simpson, and Daiyan Henley. After them was a MASSIVE drop off in talent in which they felt probably wouldn't be able to compete and would be a reach.

 

All 3 guys got drafted by pick 86. At that point, MLB was out. So looking at the roster, with no MLB on the board left they felt could challenge Dodson, Bernard, and Klein in Year 1, and having taken care of the last weapon and the last piece of the OL - what was the only real hole left on the roster?

 

An OLB behind Milano.

 

Milano has stayed relatively healthy. But when he's needed a breather or some time, to this point we've had an insane drop off there when he isn't in the lineup. And going into this season, we literally had nothing. Now in Williams, perhaps we have a player that can keep things rolling when Milano needs a breather or God forbid gets hurt.

 

Long story short, Williams was drafted as an OLB. Everyone is confused by it because our MLB's are pedestrian and we were focused on that position. But OLB was a need and that's what he was Drafted for.

 

Excellent post. I agree with all of this except I believe the Bills (my guess) will slowly cross train him at MLB as he becomes more familiar with the scheme. You want your best players on the field as much as possible and it won't be long before Williams is the second best LB on the Bills, IMO.

 

[Beck Water]

So if y'all haven't found it yet, check out this Cover1 piece on Kirksey.

 

 

In addition to a lot of film that kind of speaks for itself, they bring up a couple points I hadn't thought of:

1) Kirksey playing coverages successfully in Lovie Smith's Tampa2 last season

2) Bills hired Joe Danna, last year's safety coach in Houston.  Danna should really have the tea on what Kirksey could or couldn't do as of last year.

[Shaw66]

9 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Good question.  He was at one point.  At this stage in his career and coming back from a hammy, I would say "uncertain".

 

What he may be, is an upgrade on AJ Klein as that savvy vet player who knows the defense, can spot what the offense is doing and call the counter, and who can use his knowledge to compensate.

 

Right.  Dodson has the physical tools, so he must have struggled with managing the mental challenges of the position.  I think that's exactly why Kirksey was brought in

  

Klein has the mental skills, but I assume Kirksey is better physically.  That's why Kirksey has been a more consistent starter.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

6 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Some people here like to over-react on everything.  We trade an RB who is parked on the bench for Nyheim Hines, who immediately takes over the punt return duties that Crowder had been filling and that Shakir and McKenzie looked shaky with - and proceded to fill them capably all season while making limited offensive contributions.  But some here act like we traded for our own budget Christian McCaffrey who would become an immediate game-changer on offense.

 

But that's not just the fans. 

 

The Bills were relentless in their pursuit of the 3rd down pass catching back, with Cook, agreeing to terms with McKissic, ultimately trading for Hines. 

 

And in the Press Conference after the trade, Beane talked about how they wanted that piece in the offense. 

 

Hines touched the ball 11 times on offense in 7 games. 

 

Yes we remember the Patriots game foundly and maybe him winning that game for the team made it all worth it, but I don't think the Bills did a good job at all utilizing him. 

 

It was the same old 2/3 Singletary, 1/3 Cook all last year, before and after the Hines trade. 

 

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

14 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

Right.  Dodson has the physical tools, so he must have struggled with managing the mental challenges of the position.  I think that's exactly why Kirksey was brought in

  

Klein has the mental skills, but I assume Kirksey is better physically.  That's why Kirksey has been a more consistent starter.

Dodson profiles exactly like his Scouting Combine, graded at a 5.60 - "Candidate for bottom of the roster or Practice Squad"

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/tyrel-dodson/3200444f-4434-1460-b378-91176d704c77

 

 

And Bernard isn't much better 5.94: "Average backup or Special Teamer"

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/terrel-bernard/32004245-5223-6424-136f-901f81674ee9

 

 

And Kirksey, apparently, wasn't thought of as anything more than a backup and special teamer as well: 5.80

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/christian-kirksey/32004b49-5263-6906-3aa4-9ab200514c55

 

 

Still, Kirksey is 6'2", Dodson is 6'0" and Bernard is 224 pounds, so neither of those two can man the middle. 

[Warcodered]

 

[hondo in seattle]

The Cover 1 highlights look good.  And Kirksey's has a lot of starting experience and has been voted a team captain.   That all speaks well for him.

 

But Kirksey's PFF score of 56.1 makes me wonder how balanced and representative the Cover 1 film and commentary was.   Though the talk about playing to a guy's strengths was interesting.  

[Logic]

9 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

The Cover 1 highlights look good.  And Kirksey's has a lot of starting experience and has been voted a team captain.   That all speaks well for him.

 

But Kirksey's PFF score of 56.1 makes me wonder how balanced and representative the Cover 1 film and commentary was.   Though the talk about playing to a guy's strengths was interesting.  

Texans fans will tell you that Kirksey was a liability last year.

It's weird, because on the one hand, he's been a captain and is clearly a good leader and communicator, and has good statistical production.

On the other hand, the Texans surely had a good reason to release him -- I don't buy that it was ONLY because of injury.

What I suspect is that he's going to bring certain strengths to this defense, and he'll be lacking in other areas. I think he'll be a good run defender, and more importantly, a good communicator and organizer of the defense. I think he'll earn the green dot and will end up being the leader of the second level of the defense. What I think he'll lack is in the area of pass defense. Ultimately, though, while I don't expect him to maybe be quite as good as some Bills fans are envisioning, I DO think he'll be an upgrade over Tyrel Dodsen, particularly as a leader and communicator.

[co_springs_billsfan]

18 hours ago, Warcodered said:

 

I've seen enough.  Start him.

[Udubalum07]

The Bills didn't bring him in to be a superstar.  What they have seen so far in camp is probably some of the worst middle line backer play in the NFL. So, it is too late to make it a strength so this signing is a hope for at least a return to below average for that position.  

 

I'm guessing they will target the position in a major way this coming offseason, either through free agency, the draft, or with a year in the system giving Williams every rep to have him ready next year. 

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

On the other hand, the Texans surely had a good reason to release him -- I don't buy that it was ONLY because of injury.

 

They saved a lot of salary cap by cutting him.    $5.2 million.  

[Sherlock Holmes]

39 minutes ago, Udubalum07 said:

The Bills didn't bring him in to be a superstar.  What they have seen so far in camp is probably some of the worst middle line backer play in the NFL. So, it is too late to make it a strength so this signing is a hope for at least a return to below average for that position.  

 

I'm guessing they will target the position in a major way this coming offseason, either through free agency, the draft, or with a year in the system giving Williams every rep to have him ready next year. 

He's here to hold down MLB until Spector can get back.

[Shaw66]

On 8/31/2023 at 3:47 PM, newcam2012 said:

I think the Beane was really going to resign Edmunds. All indications pointed that way. Thinking he might even take a slight discount to stay in Buffalo

 

Things changed when the Bears massively overpaid for him. At that point, there's no way Beane could resign him. 

 

Now Beane had to make another tough decision on Oliver. That decision was made much easier with the departure of Edmunds. Additionally, the Bills are pretty thin in this department too. So it was prudent to sign Oliver on what looks to be a pretty fair level of compensation.

 

Of course, the MLB void still existed. I truly believe Jack Campbell was their guy. No proof of that just my opinion. Kincaid still on the board with no Campbell was an easy decision. The Dorian Williams pick is a hard scratcher. Not sure I get it to this day. Maybe, I'm just not that smart. Seems like every draft Beane does a WTF...

 

Free agency is the next option. Seems like the available FAs weren't a good fit or really not true MLB. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

 

Last resort, Beane decides to stay the course with the available MLBs on the roster. One of them will hopefully take a step forward and at least be serviceable. Not a crazy notion and still a possibility. Training camp and pre season seems to show the liability at the position. Beane has to do something.

 

The Kirksey signing. Is he great? Is he elite? No and no. Is it a solid signing? Yes. He brings experience and some skill to the forefront. You can't hate the free move sort of speak. I guess you could absolutely critique the process of how things evolved. 

 

Let's hope the MLB position isn't the Achilles heal of the defense. I don't agree that it's an insignificant position. 

I like this post.  Nice overall summary.   I want to add a few things.

 

First, I never said linebacker is insignificant.  I said that when we look at the totality of Beane and McDermott's roster building, I think it's clear that linebacker is, in their minds, the least important defensive position, the position where it's least important to have top talent.   As others have said, it's the defensive equivalent of the running back on offense.  

 

I think that's obvious from Beane's presser.  He said the other guys on defense will have to pick up the slack.  It makes sense schematically: it's the position where the guy can get help from his teammates from any direction.  You can't help and edge rusher - if he can't get to the quarterback, it's an advantage to the offense.  You can only help the corner back by doubling his man or playing zone, both things being advantages to the offense.  The middle linebacker's job gets easier if he has talent all around him, so you can get away with a lesser talent there without hurting your defense as much as having a weak player on the edge.  

 

Beane said he want to re-sign Edmunds, but I wouldn't be quick to assume that meant that he any expectation that he would.   None of us knows, but I don't think the Bears were the only team who would pay Edmunds more than Beane would.  The Bears just happened to offer the most.  My guess is that Beane and McDermott decided that they only wanted Edmunds at a relatively lowball price.  There was nothing in the short time before Edmunds signed that suggested that Beane offered enough to have even a short negotiation with Edmunds. 

 

And I don't think they signed Oliver because they had money from not signing Edmunds.  I just don't.  Oliver was the 8th best paid DT in the league when he signed, which meant they paid him right about what he's worth.  And not signing him would have a left a bigger hole than not signing Edmunds, for the reason stated above.  If you have a weak middle linebacker, you can cover for him.  If you have a weak 3-tech, there's nothing you can do to help him. 

 

Someday we'll know if Beane wanted Campbell.   He didn't fall far enough for Beane to be able to trade up for him.  

 

I don't think Williams is such a head scratcher, but I do agree about Beane's annual WTF.   Great line!

 

When I started this discussion a week or two ago, I said that Beane ALWAYS attempts to fill holes.  ALWAYS.   I think the only way to explain the fact that for two seasons he got no serious help in the draft and no serious help in free agency is that Beane and McDermott think that lesser talent is enough to fill the perceived hole.  

 

And I think running back is the same.  Their answer at running back was two third round picks (Motor and Moss), one second round pick who never will be as good as his brother, and some NFL journeymen.   It's just not a position the McBeane think they have to spend money on, and middle linebacker is the same.  

[newcam2012]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I like this post.  Nice overall summary.   I want to add a few things.

 

First, I never said linebacker is insignificant.  I said that when we look at the totality of Beane and McDermott's roster building, I think it's clear that linebacker is, in their minds, the least important defensive position, the position where it's least important to have top talent.   As others have said, it's the defensive equivalent of the running back on offense.  

 

I think that's obvious from Beane's presser.  He said the other guys on defense will have to pick up the slack.  It makes sense schematically: it's the position where the guy can get help from his teammates from any direction.  You can't help and edge rusher - if he can't get to the quarterback, it's an advantage to the offense.  You can only help the corner back by doubling his man or playing zone, both things being advantages to the offense.  The middle linebacker's job gets easier if he has talent all around him, so you can get away with a lesser talent there without hurting your defense as much as having a weak player on the edge.  

 

Beane said he want to re-sign Edmunds, but I wouldn't be quick to assume that meant that he any expectation that he would.   None of us knows, but I don't think the Bears were the only team who would pay Edmunds more than Beane would.  The Bears just happened to offer the most.  My guess is that Beane and McDermott decided that they only wanted Edmunds at a relatively lowball price.  There was nothing in the short time before Edmunds signed that suggested that Beane offered enough to have even a short negotiation with Edmunds. 

 

And I don't think they signed Oliver because they had money from not signing Edmunds.  I just don't.  Oliver was the 8th best paid DT in the league when he signed, which meant they paid him right about what he's worth.  And not signing him would have a left a bigger hole than not signing Edmunds, for the reason stated above.  If you have a weak middle linebacker, you can cover for him.  If you have a weak 3-tech, there's nothing you can do to help him. 

 

Someday we'll know if Beane wanted Campbell.   He didn't fall far enough for Beane to be able to trade up for him.  

 

I don't think Williams is such a head scratcher, but I do agree about Beane's annual WTF.   Great line!

 

When I started this discussion a week or two ago, I said that Beane ALWAYS attempts to fill holes.  ALWAYS.   I think the only way to explain the fact that for two seasons he got no serious help in the draft and no serious help in free agency is that Beane and McDermott think that lesser talent is enough to fill the perceived hole.  

 

And I think running back is the same.  Their answer at running back was two third round picks (Motor and Moss), one second round pick who never will be as good as his brother, and some NFL journeymen.   It's just not a position the McBeane think they have to spend money on, and middle linebacker is the same.  

Nice post Shaw. 

 

Is the MLB position in the Bills system really depicted correctly here? Not trying to be a wise guy here. I'm not strong in the xs and os sort of speak. Many others here can absolutely give some solid input here. I'm an old school guy and thought the position was very vital. Almost like the QB of the defense. A rock and foundation piece of the D. Maybe the game's changed? In fact, Beane I believe is on the record verifying the importance of Edmunds. 

 

The Bills D was not nearly as good without Edmunds. Also, it was pretty obvious when he played well and poorly. He sure seemed to be an important piece to the D. 

 

Looking forward to what others think. 

[newcam2012]

22 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Dodson profiles exactly like his Scouting Combine, graded at a 5.60 - "Candidate for bottom of the roster or Practice Squad"

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/tyrel-dodson/3200444f-4434-1460-b378-91176d704c77

 

 

And Bernard isn't much better 5.94: "Average backup or Special Teamer"

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/terrel-bernard/32004245-5223-6424-136f-901f81674ee9

 

 

And Kirksey, apparently, wasn't thought of as anything more than a backup and special teamer as well: 5.80

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/christian-kirksey/32004b49-5263-6906-3aa4-9ab200514c55

 

 

Still, Kirksey is 6'2", Dodson is 6'0" and Bernard is 224 pounds, so neither of those two can man the middle. 

Happen to agree here. Like the Kirksey pick up but MLB position sure is problematic this year. 

 

Hard to think other quality aren't going to expose the Bills. 

 

I'm interested in seeing how McD can effectively beat quality offenses with a glaring hole in the middle. Perhaps , one of the Bills guys steps up. Let's hope so. 

[Shaw66]

4 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Nice post Shaw. 

 

Is the MLB position in the Bills system really depicted correctly here? Not trying to be a wise guy here. I'm not strong in the xs and os sort of speak. Many others here can absolutely give some solid input here. I'm an old school guy and thought the position was very vital. Almost like the QB of the defense. A rock and foundation piece of the D. Maybe the game's changed? In fact, Beane I believe is on the record verifying the importance of Edmunds. 

 

The Bills D was not nearly as good without Edmunds. Also, it was pretty obvious when he played well and poorly. He sure seemed to be an important piece to the D. 

Looking forward to what others think. 

I don't know the answers to your questions, but I'm confident I'm correct about this.  

 

I'm as old or older than you.  I grew up a Jim Brown fan, and so I knew a lot about Sam Huff and Ray Nitschke.  Then Butkus.  Those were the days when the middle linebacker was THE MAN.   Then the man was Lawrence Taylor, and suddenly everything changed.  As the game evolved, the edge rushers took over.  Ray Lewis was a throwback. 

 

Brian Uhrlacher was a star middle linebacker, but what him a star was his ability to take deep drops in the Cover 2.  His special skill was pass defense.   Yes, he was big and strong, but he ushered in the change to mobile pass coverage middle linebackers.  

 

I, like a lot of people still carry the image of Sam Huff and Ray Lewis with me, but I've come to believe that those guys are history.   It's a passing league, and the back seven are critical to a good pass defense.  As offenses have spread, all seven back defenders have had to be mobile enough to cover wideouts, faster tight ends, and running backs.   Huff and Nitschke would struggle today.  

 

Keuchle may have been last of the great two-way (run-pass) middle linebackers.  I think McBeane hoped that Edmunds would play the run tough enough to be a Keuchle type dominator, but he never developed into that.  

 

So, I've begun thinking that the middle linebacker just isn't as important as the other positions.   I think Beane confirmed it the other day, when he said that if they're relatively weak in the middle, the players around them will have to pick them up.  It's impossible to say that about any other position on defense.  Those positions cannot be the weak link.  But middle linebacker can.  

 

With Edmunds gone, the zone the middle linebacker covers necessarily must shrink.  So that means Milano, Johnson, the corners and the safeties will each have to increase their coverage zones a bit, but that's six guys dividing up the space that Edmunds used to cover.  That's a weakness, to be sure, but their zones will now be the same size as the zones all other pass defenders have (because those defenders don't have Edmunds, either).   But in exchange, the Bills are looking for a guy to play the middle who can defend the pass effectively and attack ball carriers and the quarterback better than Edmunds (which frankly shouldn't be very hard).   

 

That's what I've been thinking.   And I think it's confirmed by Beane having made major moves to strengthen or keep every defensive position EXCEPT middle linebacker.   They're obviously just looking for a quick, smart, aggressive tackling athlete.  Bernard, Williams, Dodson.  They aren't looking for Keuchle any more.  

 

I think the game has changed, and old timers like me are just catching up to that fact.  

30 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

 

I'm interested in seeing how McD can effectively beat quality offenses with a glaring hole in the middle. Perhaps , one of the Bills guys steps up. Let's hope so. 

Kirksey will be the guy.  He has experience calling the defense, which is part of the problem with Dodson, Bernard and Williams.  He has been an effective pass defender.  And he's better against the run than Edmunds, and a better blitzer, too.   He is not going to be a star, but as I've been saying, the Bills seems to have decided that middle linebacker is the position where a star is least necessary.  

[3rdand12]

4 hours ago, Udubalum07 said:

The Bills didn't bring him in to be a superstar.  What they have seen so far in camp is probably some of the worst middle line backer play in the NFL. So, it is too late to make it a strength so this signing is a hope for at least a return to below average for that position.  

 

I'm guessing they will target the position in a major way this coming offseason, either through free agency, the draft, or with a year in the system giving Williams every rep to have him ready next year. 

and the clock ticks on Allen and a SB team

some sarcasm was included

[BADOLBILZ]

23 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

 

It was the same old 2/3 Singletary, 1/3 Cook all last year, before and after the Hines trade. 

 

 

 

 

While I roll my eyes at Beane's relative fascination with RB's...........the 2022 Bills did lead the entire NFL in yards per rush (5.2) and yards per rush by RB's (4.9) so I think Hines didn't come off the pine mostly because they got excellent RB production aside from very close to the goal line.   (Which they have since addressed with 2 RB's in Harris and Murray who are uncanny at scoring from inside the 3) 

[machine gun kelly]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't know the answers to your questions, but I'm confident I'm correct about this.  

 

I'm as old or older than you.  I grew up a Jim Brown fan, and so I knew a lot about Sam Huff and Ray Nitschke.  Then Butkus.  Those were the days when the middle linebacker was THE MAN.   Then the man was Lawrence Taylor, and suddenly everything changed.  As the game evolved, the edge rushers took over.  Ray Lewis was a throwback. 

 

Brian Uhrlacher was a star middle linebacker, but what him a star was his ability to take deep drops in the Cover 2.  His special skill was pass defense.   Yes, he was big and strong, but he ushered in the change to mobile pass coverage middle linebackers.  

 

I, like a lot of people still carry the image of Sam Huff and Ray Lewis with me, but I've come to believe that those guys are history.   It's a passing league, and the back seven are critical to a good pass defense.  As offenses have spread, all seven back defenders have had to be mobile enough to cover wideouts, faster tight ends, and running backs.   Huff and Nitschke would struggle today.  

 

Keuchle may have been last of the great two-way (run-pass) middle linebackers.  I think McBeane hoped that Edmunds would play the run tough enough to be a Keuchle type dominator, but he never developed into that.  

 

So, I've begun thinking that the middle linebacker just isn't as important as the other positions.   I think Beane confirmed it the other day, when he said that if they're relatively weak in the middle, the players around them will have to pick them up.  It's impossible to say that about any other position on defense.  Those positions cannot be the weak link.  But middle linebacker can.  

 

With Edmunds gone, the zone the middle linebacker covers necessarily must shrink.  So that means Milano, Johnson, the corners and the safeties will each have to increase their coverage zones a bit, but that's six guys dividing up the space that Edmunds used to cover.  That's a weakness, to be sure, but their zones will now be the same size as the zones all other pass defenders have (because those defenders don't have Edmunds, either).   But in exchange, the Bills are looking for a guy to play the middle who can defend the pass effectively and attack ball carriers and the quarterback better than Edmunds (which frankly shouldn't be very hard).   

 

That's what I've been thinking.   And I think it's confirmed by Beane having made major moves to strengthen or keep every defensive position EXCEPT middle linebacker.   They're obviously just looking for a quick, smart, aggressive tackling athlete.  Bernard, Williams, Dodson.  They aren't looking for Keuchle any more.  

 

I think the game has changed, and old timers like me are just catching up to that fact.  

Kirksey will be the guy.  He has experience calling the defense, which is part of the problem with Dodson, Bernard and Williams.  He has been an effective pass defender.  And he's better against the run than Edmunds, and a better blitzer, too.   He is not going to be a star, but as I've been saying, the Bills seems to have decided that middle linebacker is the position where a star is least necessary.  

 

That’s not just the Bills Shaw.  The league has devalued off the ball LBers which was Edmunds and this role.  Franchise tags are misleading as edge rushing LBers demand big $.  At the end of the day, that’s Von, but just does it with his hands in the dirt in this defense.

 

FWIW, league wide the three areas financially devalued are the RB (shocker), off the ball LBer, and Safety.  Counter this with we have once Von is back three quality Edge Rushers in GROOT, Floyd and Von.  We have an entire secondary minus CB2 as top of the line as once Hyde and Poyer put to bed they are old, amd Tre with an off season an incredibly talented pass defense.  Taron is a stud, amd Rall balances him for 12 personnel and 21 personnel offenses heavy running teams.

 

I’ll say what I always say, it’s not Madden.  Not everyone will be a star.  You need a role player in some spots.

[John from Riverside]

I’m throwing my projection at week three
And the bills never look back

[oldmanfan]

3 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't know the answers to your questions, but I'm confident I'm correct about this.  

 

I'm as old or older than you.  I grew up a Jim Brown fan, and so I knew a lot about Sam Huff and Ray Nitschke.  Then Butkus.  Those were the days when the middle linebacker was THE MAN.   Then the man was Lawrence Taylor, and suddenly everything changed.  As the game evolved, the edge rushers took over.  Ray Lewis was a throwback. 

 

Brian Uhrlacher was a star middle linebacker, but what him a star was his ability to take deep drops in the Cover 2.  His special skill was pass defense.   Yes, he was big and strong, but he ushered in the change to mobile pass coverage middle linebackers.  

 

I, like a lot of people still carry the image of Sam Huff and Ray Lewis with me, but I've come to believe that those guys are history.   It's a passing league, and the back seven are critical to a good pass defense.  As offenses have spread, all seven back defenders have had to be mobile enough to cover wideouts, faster tight ends, and running backs.   Huff and Nitschke would struggle today.  

 

Keuchle may have been last of the great two-way (run-pass) middle linebackers.  I think McBeane hoped that Edmunds would play the run tough enough to be a Keuchle type dominator, but he never developed into that.  

 

So, I've begun thinking that the middle linebacker just isn't as important as the other positions.   I think Beane confirmed it the other day, when he said that if they're relatively weak in the middle, the players around them will have to pick them up.  It's impossible to say that about any other position on defense.  Those positions cannot be the weak link.  But middle linebacker can.  

 

With Edmunds gone, the zone the middle linebacker covers necessarily must shrink.  So that means Milano, Johnson, the corners and the safeties will each have to increase their coverage zones a bit, but that's six guys dividing up the space that Edmunds used to cover.  That's a weakness, to be sure, but their zones will now be the same size as the zones all other pass defenders have (because those defenders don't have Edmunds, either).   But in exchange, the Bills are looking for a guy to play the middle who can defend the pass effectively and attack ball carriers and the quarterback better than Edmunds (which frankly shouldn't be very hard).   

 

That's what I've been thinking.   And I think it's confirmed by Beane having made major moves to strengthen or keep every defensive position EXCEPT middle linebacker.   They're obviously just looking for a quick, smart, aggressive tackling athlete.  Bernard, Williams, Dodson.  They aren't looking for Keuchle any more.  

 

I think the game has changed, and old timers like me are just catching up to that fact.  

Kirksey will be the guy.  He has experience calling the defense, which is part of the problem with Dodson, Bernard and Williams.  He has been an effective pass defender.  And he's better against the run than Edmunds, and a better blitzer, too.   He is not going to be a star, but as I've been saying, the Bills seems to have decided that middle linebacker is the position where a star is least necessary.  

Well stated as usual.  I would add the term Middle LB implies you have two other LB, one on either side.  Hard to have a MLB with just 2 LBs on the field.  

[maddenboy]

On 8/31/2023 at 8:27 AM, The Frankish Reich said:

True, I didn't see the INTs, the forced fumbles, the sacks.

But that's a narrow view of what counts as "making mistakes." Not giving up the big play, making an offense sustain a 12 play drive without a holding penalty, a dropped catch, a false start causing a 1st and 15 ... all of those things are critical to a bend but don't break philosophy. And Edmunds was a very good fit for that.

 

i dont think the point of the bend-but-dont-break philosophy is to wait for the opponent to make mistakes.

 

you cant just say, (for example):  on average, a 12 play drive will yield X number of penalties, Y number of dropped passes, and Z number of missed field goals.

 

The point of the bend-dont-break is to capitalize on those mistakes.  Where capitalize does not just mean 'eventually get the ball back.'

 

sacks.  forced fumbles.  QB hits.  Opponents geting frustrated and commiting personal fouls.  Tricking QBs. 

 

 

Edmunds gave you none of that.   Dont tell me it wasnt his job and i dont know his assignment, etc.   

I think the only time on Defense where your assignment does not involve making a play is either (1) eating a double team, or (2) setting the edge.   Otherwise, your assignment should be to do your role, so you can be in position to make a play if it presents. 

 

Never happened with Edmunds.  He was like the employee whose priority was to not get fired.  No thought of advancement.

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by maddenboy

[Shaw66]

4 minutes ago, maddenboy said:

 

Edmunds gave you none of that. 

Edmunds had amazing range.  He covered a lot of space.  Given how much he was in the vicinity,  it was surprising how relatively few plays he made.