Good Night / Bad Night - Pre-season game 1

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No you misunderstand me. It is very clear signing cut players doesn't count.... what is less clear is if a player who signs a contract which, at the end of the qualifying period, is considered a qualifying contract is then cut without playing on that contract - so like if Keenum is cut when the Texans cut to 53.... does he still count against the formula? There was definitely a year either 2019 or 2020 when the Ravens cut a qualifying player (or two) at the end of camp and brought themselves back into the black so far as comp picks are concerned.

 

Oh, interesting.  Apparently things changed in 2020 so if it worked before 2020 it might not work now.

 

That seems sketch AF to me if that's allowed, because since only FA who are signed between the start of the league new year, and 1 week after the draft, count - if you can cut a guy you signed at that point and return to "the black" for comp picks what would stop teams from doing that routinely even with players they want - do a handshake agreement to cut and re-sign them?

[John from Riverside]

Telling you right now as soon as Elam is off this team, like people want, he will immediately be starting for a man cover team and do well

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

Boogie Basham and Dorian Williams really impressed me. 

[without a drought]

5 hours ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

 

To the bolded on Kyle Allen, for complete context he's entering his 6th season in the NFL after having started 2 years in college.

 

His play yesterday is disappointing but as was pointed out upthread, Keenum didn't look like a world beater in his preseason debut for the Bills so there's that.

 

 

 

 

For complete context, you took a statement out of context to make a obvious point that has nothing to do with the comparison.

[Sierra Foothills]

1 hour ago, without a drought said:

For complete context, you took a statement out of context to make a obvious point that has nothing to do with the comparison.

 

Actually you were an apologist for Kyle Allen pointing out his relative inexperience in this system.

 

I accurately qualified your statement by pointing out that he's entering his 6th season.

 

Both are equally true.

 

[Success]

Great discussion & analysis on this thread.

 

Some hot takes, too - which can be expected.  But a really enjoyable read overall.

 

[Bills Bud]

Our WRs is the biggest concern, Davis couldn’t get off the line on that slant, Shakir had a bad drop, Sherfield is too small. Also Kincaid looked small, smaller than Knox

[SoCal Deek]

5 minutes ago, Bills Bud said:

Our WRs is the biggest concern, Davis couldn’t get off the line on that slant, Shakir had a bad drop, Sherfield is too small. Also Kincaid looked small, smaller than Knox

Kincaid and Knox are both 6’-4”, but Kincaid is 240lbs compared to 254lbs for Knox. 

[Doc]

9 minutes ago, Bills Bud said:

Our WRs is the biggest concern, Davis couldn’t get off the line on that slant, Shakir had a bad drop, Sherfield is too small. Also Kincaid looked small, smaller than Knox

 

Sherfield is 6'1" and 205#. 

[Shaw66]

8 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

 

I don't know that I agree here.  I think the Bills def. wanted to get a good long look at Bates as backup C.  I saw something in an article about wanting to limit the snaps Ryan Bates had to play - which would have been A Lot if he played both G with the 1s and backup C with the 2s.  It was unclear if that was the author's take or something a coach said.  Also that Kromer wanted to see Torrence with both the 1s and 2s (written as though said by McDermott.

 

So I'm at "uncertain what that means" not at "Competition is over, job is won".   I'd go so far as to say Torrence is showing his value as a run blocker, but I'm less clear whether he's ready to rock in pass protection.  

 

I'd. Ike to think you're wrong on these Torrence takes.

 

First, if he's clearly a better run blocking guard, then he's probably already won the job, and his pass blocking is probably irrelevant.  Why?  Because the interior pass blocking was atrocious last season, and Bates gets his fair share of the blame.  Torrence almost certainly won't be worse.

 

Second, I don't buy the idea that Torrence got first team reps because they wanted to give Bates reps at center.  If that's the strategy, why didn't Williams get first team reps over Milano?  Losing Milano is as big a risk as losing Morse, and Bates already has starting experience at center.   No, Torrence got those reps because he already looks like the winner and the coaches needed to see whether he could hold up against first team linemen.  

 

McDermott is always super cautious in commenting on players in situations like this, so what he said doesn't tell us much.

[syhuang]

 

[Doc]

14 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'd. Ike to think you're wrong on these Torrence takes.

 

First, if he's clearly a better run blocking guard, then he's probably already won the job, and his pass blocking is probably irrelevant.  Why?  Because the interior pass blocking was atrocious last season, and Bates gets his fair share of the blame.  Torrence almost certainly won't be worse.

 

Second, I don't buy the idea that Torrence got first team reps because they wanted to give Bates reps at center.  If that's the strategy, why didn't Williams get first team reps over Milano?  Losing Milano is as big a risk as losing Morse, and Bates already has starting experience at center.   No, Torrence got those reps because he already looks like the winner and the coaches needed to see whether he could hold up against first team linemen.  

 

McDermott is always super cautious in commenting on players in situations like this, so what he said doesn't tell us much.

 

Every other position on the line was the clear starter, I think we can agree on that.  But just because they may have wanted to see Bates in at center with the 2nd team doesn't mean they couldn't still have started him at RG and then moved him to 2nd team center with Torrence next to him.  That is, it's not like he was on a pitch count.

 

And in any case, Torrence did nothing to warrant demoting him to 2nd team with his performance.  So he'll stay there.

[SectionC3]

4 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Every other position on the line was the clear starter, I think we can agree on that.  But just because they may have wanted to see Bates in at center with the 2nd team doesn't mean they couldn't still have started him at RG and then moved him to 2nd team center with Torrence next to him.  That is, it's not like he was on a pitch count.

 

And in any case, Torrence did nothing to warrant demoting him to 2nd team with his performance.  So he'll stay there.

Depends on how his hands are taped, right?  Totally agree - they could have made a quick switch.  Torrence starting at RG speaks for itself. 

[Kwai San]

14 hours ago, Lost said:

Good assessment Gunner.

 

I don't ever want to see Kyle Allen on the field again.

 I totally agree with BOTH statements above......

[Kwai San]

13 hours ago, fergie's ire said:

I wonder if Shorter is a candidate to mysteriously fall to the ground screaming "My LEG!  MY LEGGGGG!!" in the last preseason game and then be awarded the Marquez Stevenson "spend the year on IR" award.

 

Based on Gunner's description of Basham's success it seems like he could play the Shaq role making Lawson the odd man out.  Of course, it might come down to what players draw an interest from other teams.  They might be able to trade Basham for something but not Shaq.  Just seems that Basham still has potential upside so if he can already come close to giving us what Shaq gives us, it would make sense to stick with the younger player.

 

I really hope Basham isn't Teller 2.0.  I know I know, Boogie has been here 2 years but still......

[Beck Water]

16 minutes ago, Doc said:

Every other position on the line was the clear starter, I think we can agree on that.  But just because they may have wanted to see Bates in at center with the 2nd team doesn't mean they couldn't still have started him at RG and then moved him to 2nd team center with Torrence next to him.  That is, it's not like he was on a pitch count.

 

I think the starters are, in fact, on snap counts. For example, Joe Buscaglia tracks these things methodically and points out that Kincaid got 2 series, 4 snaps total.  Poyer and Hyde were given exactly 10 snaps, and pulled in the middle of a series

 

The idea, I believe, is to help them take a step into football shape with minimal risk of injury - and also, to keep them where they were able to practice today.

 

Now I can't tell you for sure if that was the Bills thinking with Bates, or if they in fact do think of Torrance as the starter now.

 

But I can tell you there IS a reason to not start Bates at RG then give him 2nd team C snaps, and that is it.

[Nephilim17]

45 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Second, I don't buy the idea that Torrence got first team reps because they wanted to give Bates reps at center.  If that's the strategy, why didn't Williams get first team reps over Milano?  Losing Milano is as big a risk as losing Morse,

Sorry, Shaw, but Milano is locked up through the end of 2026 and Morse is just locked up through the end of 2024. Plus, Morse's considerable concussion history makes him liable to stop playing at literally any game he takes another big shot to the head.

How do you figure losing Morse and Milano are equal?

[RenoNVBillsfan]

Just watched Shakir make 2 spectacular catches in the 2nd qtr…only to drop a much easier catch that would have continued moving the chain. So, making catches of high degrees of difficulty can’t be ignored as a positive. Let’s see how it plays out but if I’m McD I’d have this guy in for longer preseason stretches and preferably with Barkley as QB. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by RenoNVBillsfan

[Ralonzo]

15 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Back by absolutely no popular acclaim it's Gunner's pre-season good night bad night thread. A sort of "Sal's arrow up / arrow down" but for the thinking man . The Bills made it 11 wins from their last 12 pre-season outings with victory over the Colts but what did it mean for those position groups and players where questions abound. Here's my take:

 

Good Night for...

 

The Running Backs

O'Cyrus Torrence

Boogie Basham - The one place where I think the Bills are guaranteed to cut someone who makes another NFL roster this season is defensive line. They have 5 proven vet tackles (Jones, Oliver, Phillips, Settle, Ford) and 6 proved vet edge players (Von, Groot, AJE, Floyd, Boogie and Shaq). I don't think they can keep 11. Shaq is the "easiest" cut of those but he has played a very specific role for the Bills in the past as an edge setting end and so I was leaning towards Boogie maybe being traded. But he was active yesterday, made a couple of nice run stops and had a sack. He hasn't flashed much in camp so it was a performance he needed. 

 

Ryan Van Demark - if there is a player who I would have told you a week ago had no shot at the 53 that I'm now seeing a path for - he is the guy!

 

Fire away guys.... thoughts, comments, questions always welcome. I will be back with another of these after pre-season game 2!!

 

Focused on the trenches for the first half rewatch. If not Torrence, then Eli Ankou was the best Bill on the field. For all the Poona Ford hype he got rekt 2 out of every 3 plays. Ankou was disruptive constantly.

[Beck Water]

15 hours ago, nkreed said:

The only time I noticed Kincaid in the game was a terrible attempt at a block when lined up in line. He totally whiffed and his assignment tackled the RB in the backfield. (Can't remember when but he was on Left side of line)

 

Heh.  Well.  I noticed Kincaid on the throw to Sherfield that was almost picked (think it was Kyle Allen's first pass, and he stared Sherfield down so intensely that if his eyes were lasers, Sherfield would be perforated.

 

That's Kincaid on the buffalo, basically knocking the Colt in coverage flat.

 

Is that legal or is that OPI?

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[RenoNVBillsfan]

1) I thought Boogie was unblock-able for most of his straight up pass rush options. Looks like a completely different player this season. In fact, the entire front 4 looked to manhandle the Colts 1st half. 

 

2) Huge shoutout to L Murray. Downhill runner with above average receiving skills. Big back who just seems to love the contact. Nonetheless, a little wiggle room in the open field. An absolute must have for the 53.
 

3) K Allen looked generally lost as starting QB. I didn’t see anything that gave me confidence if he had to spell JA for any time. That pick 6 was mind numbing. Bad throw but should’ve never been thrown. Night n day with MB in as QB. Not even close, in my mind. Play him as #2 next week. 
 

4) Eli Anku, DL, unsung gem of the D in this game. Hard to make this 53 roster but he showed some chops. 
 

5) D Williams looks like a heat seeking missile. Great angles, solid tackler and didn’t seems to be out of position. Dude had a penetrating tfl at goal line. Should get some Day 1 reps. 
 

6) Time for Doyle and Boettger to consider other lines of work. Simply abused…often. Flip side, hand the 1st team RG to O’Torrence. Guy is going to be a pro bowler within 2 years. Mark it down. 😉

 

7) Shavers won’t make the 53 but suggested PS. His height alone could be a weapon to utilize in the RZ. K Johnson and Patmon (sp)  also a solid contributor. J Ingram, LB, also had a great 4th down stop. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by RenoNVBillsfan

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, RenoNVBillsfan said:

Just watched Shakir make 2 spectacular catches in the 2nd qtr

 

Just to put this on the record... those catches were not "spectacular." They were good catches and good plays but ordinary at the NFL level. If he hadn't made one of those catches it would still have been considered a drop, they did not require a superhuman effort. I think Shakir's tiny arms make some ordinary catches LOOK spectacular.

[John from Riverside]

Dorian Williams is a player and we have to find a way to get him on the field
 

I know that they froze him out of the middle linebacker competition, but he gotta let the best players play

[HappyDays]

47 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Heh.  Well.  I noticed Kincaid on the throw to Sherfield that was almost picked (think it was Kyle Allen's first pass, and he stared Sherfield down so intensely that if his eyes were lasers, Sherfield would be perforated.

 

That's Kincaid on the buffalo, basically knocking the Colt in coverage flat.

 

Is that legal or is that OPI?

 

 

That's why Kincaid was mostly unnoticeable in this game. The coaching staff intentionally gave him assignments that they know he is weak at. They already know what he can do as a pass catcher, they are just fine tuning the rest of his game. On the two plays shown above he didn't exactly dominate his man but he did enough to keep them out of the way. For a player that will almost exclusively be a slot receiver that is good enough IMO.

[PrimeTime101]

29 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

That's why Kincaid was mostly unnoticeable in this game. The coaching staff intentionally gave him assignments that they know he is weak at. They already know what he can do as a pass catcher, they are just fine tuning the rest of his game. On the two plays shown above he didn't exactly dominate his man but he did enough to keep them out of the way. For a player that will almost exclusively be a slot receiver that is good enough IMO.

Yea i mean. Against good defensive lines? I think he will do a great job chipping then going out to a rout. For a guy that was told he could not block well? seemed to do a damn good job.. hes not going to push like an ol'men but for the plays at hand? he did great!

[Alphadawg7]

17 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Kaiir Elam - Not so much that Elam was awful, he wasn't. He got called on one defensive PI that I thought was a little ticky tacky. There was a little grab and by the letter of course that is a penalty, but he left go before the ball arrived and in pre-season not sure that needed to be called. But Dane Jackson got the start and in his 1 series had an interception. They then brought Elam in for the second series with the 1s and while I think that means the competition is still live (contrast their approach at MLB and RG the other two big competition spots in camp) the fact that Elam then stayed on the field throughout the 2s run suggests to me that it is a competition he is behind in. They never switched Jackson back in which says to me they are happy they know what they have there. Unless Elam starts next week I think we can start to call time on this competition. 

 

Agree with most you wrote, except this.  Everywhere the positional battle had separation, they listed who was the starter and who was the backup.  In the few where competition was in play, they listed them all as the starter separated by slashes, and CB2 was one of those.  I doubt they would list Elam there if he wasn't legitimately competing for CB2 with Dane.  

 

Second, this Dane interception has been a bit exaggerated to be more of a play than it was.  Dane didn't make a play on the ball, it was an awful pass by a rookie QB that hit Dane right in the chest 10 yards past the target.  Pretty much any player on our roster could have intercepted that pass, it was thrown right to him like they were playing catch.  It would be different it was a play Dane made to go get the Int, but this was a free gift and that play alone isn't going to seal the deal. 

 

Now Dane may win the job outright, he has had a good camp, but that one play is pretty insignificant in terms of the final outcome of who enters week 1 as CB2.  And Elam was in the next series with the ones, that is a definite sign he is in this competition.  And Elam getting an extended run is no surprise either given they pretty much know who Dane is already and probably want to get to see Elam more.  

 

Personally, it's a good problem to have, both have had a good camp so far.  I also think its possible they handle CB2 more on a rotation based on scheme, matchups, etc as opposed to say CB1 where Tre is a constant.  Elam and Dane both have different strengths and weaknesses, so whoever wins the battle isn't necessarily going to dominate the snaps at CB2 the way Tre does.  

 

For me, this competition still seems very much ongoing and I suspect Elam will get the start in the 2nd game.  

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Ralonzo said:

 

Focused on the trenches for the first half rewatch. If not Torrence, then Eli Ankou was the best Bill on the field. For all the Poona Ford hype he got rekt 2 out of every 3 plays. Ankou was disruptive constantly.

 

Yea Ankou looked to have a good game. That doesn't surprise me at all.

32 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Agree with most you wrote, except this.  Everywhere the positional battle had separation, they listed who was the starter and who was the backup.  In the few where competition was in play, they listed them all as the starter separated by slashes, and CB2 was one of those.  I doubt they would list Elam there if he wasn't legitimately competing for CB2 with Dane.  

 

Second, this Dane interception has been a bit exaggerated to be more of a play than it was.  Dane didn't make a play on the ball, it was an awful pass by a rookie QB that hit Dane right in the chest 10 yards past the target.  Pretty much any player on our roster could have intercepted that pass, it was thrown right to him like they were playing catch.  It would be different it was a play Dane made to go get the Int, but this was a free gift and that play alone isn't going to seal the deal. 

 

Now Dane may win the job outright, he has had a good camp, but that one play is pretty insignificant in terms of the final outcome of who enters week 1 as CB2.  And Elam was in the next series with the ones, that is a definite sign he is in this competition.  And Elam getting an extended run is no surprise either given they pretty much know who Dane is already and probably want to get to see Elam more.  

 

Personally, it's a good problem to have, both have had a good camp so far.  I also think its possible they handle CB2 more on a rotation based on scheme, matchups, etc as opposed to say CB1 where Tre is a constant.  Elam and Dane both have different strengths and weaknesses, so whoever wins the battle isn't necessarily going to dominate the snaps at CB2 the way Tre does.  

 

For me, this competition still seems very much ongoing and I suspect Elam will get the start in the 2nd game.  

 

The competition is ongoing. I say that in my post. But I also think Dane is ahead. How long they kept Elam in there says to me they think he needs the reps. Elam could start next week, but tbh I expect Dane to.

[eball]

I always enjoy this thread.  Hated to see Kyle Allen look so bad.  The Shakir drop was frustrating, and I know we’ve heard he has had some dropsies in camp, but a Buffalo News article this morning says he only had one drop on 17 targets last season — if that is accurate, does he have a drop problem?

 

Happy with the OL play in general.  Bye bye Boettger.

 

I can’t wait to see Cook in the regular season.  Murray was a super underrated late signing by Beane.

 

I don’t put too much stock into the WRs at the bottom of the roster…the guys who have been making plays against the twos and threes in camp made plays against the twos and threes on Saturday.  It would have been a story if they didn’t.

 

Thinking we will see a lot more from the starters this week.

 

[Fixxxer]

17 hours ago, BillsDad51 said:

Thanks for the write-up, Gunner. Appreciate it. I did see Spector stop an Indy run play stone dead on a 3rd and 1 (I think in 4th quarter.) On next play, Ingram blew up a run to turn the ball over on downs.

 

this is correct. He had a nice stop, like Dorian Williams on third and goal, unfortunately the Colts scored on the next play.

 

I was really impressed with the other Gator, LT Richard Gouragie, I would like to see him with the second unit against better competition. 

 

The other player that caught my eye was Marcell Ateman, that sideline grab on third and forever was sweet. Then Barkley found him on a crosser for a big gain. I likened him to a taller Gabe Davis. 

[Warriorspikes51]

22 hours ago, RichRiderBills said:

As of now, I think Shaver or Isabella is going to be that last WR slot. 

 

Shorterer behind the 8 ball. 

Except....Shorter played with the 2nd team offense and Shavers and Isabella played after he was done for the day 

6 minutes ago, Fixxxer said:

 

this is correct. He had a nice stop, like Dorian Williams on third and goal, unfortunately the Colts scored on the next play.

 

I was really impressed with the other Gator, LT Richard Gouragie, I would like to see him with the second unit against better competition. 

 

The other player that caught my eye was Marcell Ateman, that sideline grab on third and forever was sweet. Then Barkley found him on a crosser for a big gain. I likened him to a taller Gabe Davis. 

 

 
Yes, I hope this continues. We badly need a decent backup LT.  I'd personally like to see him get a look at RT too.  They likely won't do it because of the Spencer Brown favoritism....but having Torrence and Gouriage gel and grow together...best case is the right side of the line is locked down for years

[Ralonzo]

7 hours ago, RenoNVBillsfan said:

1) I thought Boogie was unblock-able for most of his straight up pass rush options. Looks like a completely different player this season. In fact, the entire front 4 looked to manhandle the Colts 1st half. 

 

3) K Allen looked generally lost as starting QB. I didn’t see anything that gave me confidence if he had to spell JA for any time. That pick 6 was mind numbing. Bad throw but should’ve never been thrown. Night n day with MB in as QB. Not even close, in my mind. Play him as #2 next week. 
 

4) Eli Anku, DL, unsung gem of the D in this game. Hard to make this 53 roster but he showed some chops. 
 

5) D Williams looks like a heat seeking missile. Great angles, solid tackler and didn’t seems to be out of position. Dude had a penetrating tfl at goal line. Should get some Day 1 reps. 
 

 

1) Boogie got stymied about half his reps, but Epenesa got stopped on every rep.

3) There were about 4 throws from Kyle that were forced into heavy coverage, whether it's a bad read or a one-read preseason call where "ball goes here, we need this play on tape" I dunno. I suspect former since Barkley didn't do any of that.

4) Based on yesterday Ankou was simply the Bills best 1-tech, better than Settle. Oliver is locked as a 3, and Jones at 1. Phillips is more of a 3. I wasn't impressed with Ford at all, he had one play where he actually anchored and got his hands inside the G and it's all over twitter.

5) Dorian looked worlds better in that game than Bernard ever has shown.

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Ralonzo

[SoCal Deek]

For all of those nit picking specific players performances from the other night, keep in mind that’s a glorified practice game and the very first truly live action in many months for ALL of these guys. I can’t recall the player or the year, (I’m getting old and seasons blend together) but just a few years back the Bills backup QB literally stunk up the place in the Opener and then looked completely different the very next week. Was it Trubisky? With all that said, I was pleasantly surprised with what I saw against the Colts. The team looked organized and the roster looks deeper than I expected. So…what do we need to see? We need Torrence and Kincaid and possibly Williams to contribute and the Bills will have won the Draft. After that, get out of preseason with no injuries to the starting 22. 

[Fixxxer]

1 hour ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

Except....Shorter played with the 2nd team offense and Shavers and Isabella played after he was done for the day 

 

 
Yes, I hope this continues. We badly need a decent backup LT.  I'd personally like to see him get a look at RT too.  They likely won't do it because of the Spencer Brown favoritism....but having Torrence and Gouriage gel and grow together...best case is the right side of the line is locked down for years

 

I agree that Spencer Brown is upgradable, but I don't think is an easy transition going from LT to the right side if you never did it in college. I could be wrong but it would be best to have a natural LT backing up Dawkins.   

[SCBills]

I still want to see Kyle Allen get 1st team reps this preseason.   Those Barkley loft throws look great in preseason, but his arm and mobility is seriously lacking.  He has command of the offense and is very accurate, but in Buffalo.. with our wind and weather … yikes. 
 

At least Allen has some zip on his throws and a bit of mobility. 
 

Dorian Williams looks legit.  I don’t know what the staff will do with him this year, but he looks every bit of a future stud linebacker. 

[The Frankish Reich]

8 hours ago, RenoNVBillsfan said:

2) Huge shoutout to L Murray. Downhill runner with above average receiving skills. Big back who just seems to love the contact. Nonetheless, a little wiggle room in the open field. An absolute must have for the 53.

I think I watched at least some of every Broncos game last year (which has to do with where I live, not with entertainment value), and I came to the conclusion that the best player on a horrid Broncos offense last year was Latavius Murray. How he managed to grind out positive yardage week after week on that offense was kind of amazing. Aging RBs sometimes lose it fast, but last year he looked like the same guy that he was in his prime. I predict he plays a significant positive role this year.

[Green Lightning]

22 hours ago, Slippery Rubber Mats said:

As much as this forum has been growing a hate for Kyle Allen, he has a zip on his ball that Barkley couldn't dream of. Barkley throws ducks. Allen has NFL arm strength.

 

He needs to get his ***** together though

Good arm but slow eyes.

[Rockinon]

On 8/13/2023 at 8:34 AM, strive_for_five_guy said:

Gunner - Thanks for the write-up, has to miss the game here.  You don’t mention Evans at RB.  You see him making PS too, or just cut altogether?

 

And you bring up Boogie being traded.  I agree they should be trying to trade one of these edge guys if they can, since they all can’t make the squad.  Have you considered AJE being the trade candidate instead of Basham, given there’s an extra year on Basham’s rookie contract?  If the Bills don’t think they’ll be able to re-sign AJE next season, might as well try and get even a late round pick for him now.

I think Evans should get more reps. He looked like the best returner out of the bunch and held his own running the ball. If he can continue to look good as a return man, he might win a roster spot. All the other returners seemed pretty hesitant.  I am very worried about the return game since Hines got hurt.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, eball said:

I always enjoy this thread.  Hated to see Kyle Allen look so bad.  The Shakir drop was frustrating, and I know we’ve heard he has had some dropsies in camp, but a Buffalo News article this morning says he only had one drop on 17 targets last season — if that is accurate, does he have a drop problem?

 

Happy with the OL play in general.  Bye bye Boettger.

 

I can’t wait to see Cook in the regular season.  Murray was a super underrated late signing by Beane.

 

I don’t put too much stock into the WRs at the bottom of the roster…the guys who have been making plays against the twos and threes in camp made plays against the twos and threes on Saturday.  It would have been a story if they didn’t.

 

Thinking we will see a lot more from the starters this week.

 

 

 

It's not accurate.    He had 3 drops on just 27 targets.  The 3rd being a huge one in the WC game that literally flipped the momentum from 3 score blowout in progress to a tie game 2 minutes later.    For reference Gabe Davis had 9 drops on 93 targets which was among the league's very worst.   So basically the same level of reliability as that.

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, eball said:

I always enjoy this thread.  Hated to see Kyle Allen look so bad.  The Shakir drop was frustrating, and I know we’ve heard he has had some dropsies in camp, but a Buffalo News article this morning says he only had one drop on 17 targets last season — if that is accurate, does he have a drop problem?

 

Pro football reference gives him 20 targets and 2 drops.  As has been said elsewhere, it's a small sample for statistics to mean much, but for the people who were OMG he's better than McKenzie why won't McDermott just PLAY his rookies? my guess is that the drop sample was larger in practice, just as has been commented on during training camp.

[Shaw66]

9 hours ago, Nephilim17 said:

Sorry, Shaw, but Milano is locked up through the end of 2026 and Morse is just locked up through the end of 2024. Plus, Morse's considerable concussion history makes him liable to stop playing at literally any game he takes another big shot to the head.

How do you figure losing Morse and Milano are equal?

First, we're all just speculating about what the reasons are for one thing or another, and it doesn't really matter one way or another.   In a month, real football will start and none of us will care who got first team reps in the first preseasons game. 

 

But I think you're all wrong about this.  McDermott's job in August his to prepare his team for the upcoming season, and in particular to prepare his team for the first game.   He is spending no time at all thinking about whose contract expires when or what he's going to do when one player or another leaves the team after the 2024 season.   Morse's and Milano's contracts are no consideration whatsoever in deciding on starters for the preseason game. 

 

Since his focus is the Jets in four weeks, McDermott wants his starters practicing together, except for his premier players.   At no other position did the Bills start the backup on Saturday to give him reps.  Why not start Dawkins' backup? 

 

Last season's performance made it clear that Bates still needs a lot of work at guard, so if he's the presumptive starter against the Jets, Bates is the guy who has to be on the field, practicing next to Morse and getting more reps.   Torrence getting that start means Torrence is the presumptive starter, which means he must have a lead in the positional battle.  Plus, if you want Bates to get first team reps, he needs them with Josh on the field, because that's the most critical relationship the center has. 

 

Even if the idea was that it's important to get Bates reps at center to back up Morse, then I am correct that it would be more important to give Williams first team reps behind Milano.   Over the last four seasons, Milano has missed twice as many starts as Morse, so there's not reason to assume that Morse has a greater chance of getting injured.   Williams has no NFL experience at the position; Bates has plenty of experience at center.

 

No, Torrence didn't get the start because the Bills thought it was important to give Bates center reps.   He got the start because, based on what he showed in camp, Torrence is better than Bates.  He may have only a marginal lead, but he has the lead.   And based on the reports, I'd say the lead widened on Saturday.  If he's moving tacklers out of the hole on running plays, that's a clear and important improvement over what Bates ever has been able to do in the run game.  And as I said, even if Torrence has some pass blocking issues, that doesn't disqualify him, because Bates's pass blocking was pretty poor last season, too.  

 

The happiest man on the team these days is Mitch Morse, because it appears that for the first time in his career in Buffalo, Morse will have a stout guard on either side of him.   That should make a big, big difference in the middle of the line.