Receiving concerns on offense

[Jerry Jabber]

While I’m glad to see the Bills try and address the O-line, I’m not sure they’ve done enough to give Josh good/quality targets. IMO, going in the season with Gabe Davis as the #2 WR is a mistake. Davis underperformed last season as he struggled with drops and contested catches. I feel Davis is a better #3WR than the #2 WR. 
 

Trusting a rookie TE to be your slot guy is a huge risk. Would rather see a veteran WR in that position while they break Kincaid into that role.
 

I’m interested in seeing how the Bills use Harty and Sherfield, but neither guy has had eye-popping stats. 
 

If there are no further upgrades to the WR group going into the season, I have concerns about the WR’s outside of Diggs. 

[I'm Spartacus]

I think Sherfield is going to suprise us.

[Tanoros]

6 minutes ago, Jerry Jabber said:

While I’m glad to see the Bills try and address the O-line, I’m not sure they’ve done enough to give Josh good/quality targets. IMO, going in the season with Gabe Davis as the #2 WR is a mistake. Davis underperformed last season as he struggled with drops and contested catches. I feel Davis is a better #3WR than the #2 WR. 
 

Trusting a rookie TE to be your slot guy is a huge risk. Would rather see a veteran WR in that position while they break Kincaid into that role.
 

I’m interested in seeing how the Bills use Harty and Sherfield, but neither guy has had eye-popping stats. 
 

If there are no further upgrades to the WR group going into the season, I have concerns about the WR’s outside of Diggs. 

I don’t think the staff is completely trusting Kincaid to be the starting slot. They have Shakir, Harty, and Sherfield to all compete with Kincaid and more than likely platoon based on opponent/game flow. It’s more accurate to say The Bills trust they will get production with the guys they have out of the slot. It’s still a risk, but not as much as you make it sound. 
 

Outside wr is still a question mark and we don’t seem to have too much depth. If Diggs or Davis go down we really don’t have many options outside, especially proven options. 

[Saint Douggie]

I think Shakir can be an outside WR. He reminds me of Diggs, who was also drafted in the fifth round

[Fleezoid]

Who are you receiving these concerns from?

[TBBills Fan]

Just now, Fleezoid said:

Who are you receiving these concerns from?

 

 

The football gods of course.....

 

You do not pray to them?

 

They do not answer you back?

[Fleezoid]

1 minute ago, TBBills Fan said:

 

 

The football gods of course.....

 

You do not pray to them?

 

They do not answer you back?

 

I do pray to them. Unfortunately, the answers I get back are always the same.....

 

"Sorry, not this time!"

[TBBills Fan]

Just now, Fleezoid said:

 

I do pray to them. Unfortunately, the answers I get back are always the same.....

 

"Sorry, not this time!"

 

 

They just typically send me back a "LOL"

 

or a "LMFAO"

 

I wont lie, it hurts when they do that.

 

Similar to the poker gods

[Jerry Jabber]

10 minutes ago, Tanoros said:

I don’t think the staff is completely trusting Kincaid to be the starting slot. They have Shakir, Harty, and Sherfield to all compete with Kincaid and more than likely platoon based on opponent/game flow. It’s more accurate to say The Bills trust they will get production with the guys they have out of the slot. It’s still a risk, but not as much as you make it sound. 
 

Outside wr is still a question mark and we don’t seem to have too much depth. If Diggs or Davis go down we really don’t have many options outside, especially proven options. 

IMO, the Bills have a #1 Diggs, #3 (but being used as a #2), Davis, but the rest of the WR’s are lower level WR’s. Sorry, but I have a hard time seeing these guys beat teams like the Bengals and Chiefs in the playoffs, especially after seeing the Bills only score ten points in the playoff game against the Bengals this past January.

[MJS]

Davis was not as bad as everyone claims. He actually has solid #2 WR numbers. 836 yards and 7 TD's. He had some drops, but he can overcome that.

 

With the other additions, I think the receiving room is more talented and has a wider variety of skills and body types.

 

Yes, bringing in another legit receiver would have been helpful, but I think Beane still did well.

[Allen2D̶i̶g̶g̶s̶TBD]

The biggest weaknesses on offense last year were:

 

Saffold at LG -replaced by McGovern

 

Bates at RG - replaced by Torrence (eventually)

 

Brown at RT -he will be a year removed from back surgery and he will compete with Shell

 

Crowder/Mckenzie at Slot -replaced by Harty/Shakir/Sherfield/Kincaid

(I think we will rotate a ton in the slot)

 

We have clearly struggled to replace Beasley's consistency in the slot, but I think the diversity of options we have this year will give us a better ability to exploit matchups. I don't think there are a lot of slot corners with the ability to guard against Harty's speed and Kincaid's size.

[MPT]

19 minutes ago, MJS said:

Davis was not as bad as everyone claims. He actually has solid #2 WR numbers. 836 yards and 7 TD's. He had some drops, but he can overcome that.

 

With the other additions, I think the receiving room is more talented and has a wider variety of skills and body types.

 

Yes, bringing in another legit receiver would have been helpful, but I think Beane still did well.

 

I think Davis's stats are a little misleading when people are debating whether he's a #2 or not (and of course people's definition of a #2). He makes his hay on long routes where he only has to make one move and beat one guy. Fully 1/8 of those stats you mentioned came on one play last year. To me, a #2 can run a full route tree with effectiveness and doesn't drop routine throws. They might not be able to beat double coverage but they can still separate at all levels of the field. Davis doesn't have that reliability in those aspects.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Jerry Jabber said:

While I’m glad to see the Bills try and address the O-line, I’m not sure they’ve done enough to give Josh good/quality targets. IMO, going in the season with Gabe Davis as the #2 WR is a mistake. Davis underperformed last season as he struggled with drops and contested catches. I feel Davis is a better #3WR than the #2 WR. 
 

Trusting a rookie TE to be your slot guy is a huge risk. Would rather see a veteran WR in that position while they break Kincaid into that role.
 

I’m interested in seeing how the Bills use Harty and Sherfield, but neither guy has had eye-popping stats. 
 

If there are no further upgrades to the WR group going into the season, I have concerns about the WR’s outside of Diggs. 

 

Well, it's fine to be skeptical - I have my own skepticism - but what would you have preferred them to do?

 

 

[Jerry Jabber]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

Well, it's fine to be skeptical - I have my own skepticism - but what would you have preferred them to do?

 

 

Brought in a WR to battle it out for the #2 WR position, preferably a Veteran WR, someone that can run a full route tree (similar to how the Bills brought in Emmanuel Sanders). I’m still crossing my fingers the Bills can land Hopkins, but that’s on Hopkins and how much he’s willing to play for. 
 

Successful offenses have at least three good WR’s (Chiefs, Bengals come to mind). Enough of wasting all this capital (Draft picks or Free Agency) on the D-line!!!

[The Jokeman]

1 hour ago, Saint Douggie said:

I think Shakir can be an outside WR. He reminds me of Diggs, who was also drafted in the fifth round

Shakir probably works in the slot this season and moves outside next season if Davis signs elsewhere or maybe stays in the slot and Shorter plays on the outside. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

It’s ok to be concerned. If you were worried then we have a problem.

[The Jokeman]

2 minutes ago, Jerry Jabber said:

Brought in a WR to battle it out for the #2 WR position, preferably a Veteran WR, someone that can run a full route tree (similar to how the Bills brought in Emmanuel Sanders). I’m still crossing my fingers the Bills can land Hopkins, but that’s on Hopkins and how much he’s willing to play for. 
 

Successful offenses have at least three good WR’s (Chiefs, Bengals come to mind). Enough of wasting all this capital (Draft picks or Free Agency) on the D-line!!!

Outside of Kelce the Chiefs WRs are not all that great. Toney might be good but Skyy Mooore was a bit of a disappointment as a rookie and I can't tell you who they signed to replace JuJu, I know they drafted a kid but as we saw with Skyy last year, rookies struggle. 

[Jerry Jabber]

3 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

Outside of Kelce the Chiefs WRs are not all that great. Toney might be good but Skyy Mooore was a bit of a disappointment as a rookie and I can't tell you who they signed to replace JuJu, I know they drafted a kid but as we saw with Skyy last year, rookies struggle. 

You make it sound like the Chiefs didn’t win the Superbowl last season.

[The Jokeman]

3 minutes ago, Jerry Jabber said:

You make it sound like the Chiefs didn’t win the Superbowl last season.

Last year's Chiefs team was better than what they putting out there this season. As they lost of an above average LT, a good slot WR and pass rushing DE and not sure they brought in equal talent back.  

Edited June 12, 2023 by The Jokeman

[Jerry Jabber]

4 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

Last year's Chiefs team was better than what they putting out there this season. As they lost of an above average LT, a good slot WR and pass rushing DE and not sure they brought in equal talent back.  

The Chiefs won two Superbowls in four years, plus the Bengals whooped the Bills 27-10 in the playoffs. Bills also haven’t been able to beat the Chiefs in the playoffs. Just stating the facts.

[BigAl2526]

And Colin Cowherd didn't think the Bills did enough on the offensive line.  My feeling is the Bills did about as well as they could given the realities of the cap, to strengthen areas of the tea that needed upgrading.  They could have reallocated resources a bit differently, but it is only a guess as to what the Bills could have done better.  They could have thrown more money at WR, but it would have cost them elsewhere.  I just want to see what the results are with what we've got.

[Beck Water]

Just now, Jerry Jabber said:

Brought in a WR to battle it out for the #2 WR position, preferably a Veteran WR, someone that can run a full route tree (similar to how the Bills brought in Emmanuel Sanders). I’m still crossing my fingers the Bills can land Hopkins, but that’s on Hopkins and how much he’s willing to play for. 
 

Successful offenses have at least three good WR’s (Chiefs, Bengals come to mind). Enough of wasting all this capital (Draft picks or Free Agency) on the D-line!!!

 

Good enough, but who would that guy be? 
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/

Sort by WR and pick your guy

 

The Cold Hard Fiscal Facts seem to be that once you're paying a QB, a top WR, and a couple top OLman, you probably don't have the cap $$ to splurge on top talent in FA. 

 

It might be worth noting that as a FA signing for 1 yr/$6M, Sanders played 14 reg. season games and contributed 44.7 ypg, 5 targets and 3 receptions a game (58.3%).  He had a high Y/R of 14.9 and 3 drops (4.2%). 

 

Gabe Davis played 15 reg season games and contributed 55.7 ypg, 6 targets and 3 receptions a game (51.6%).  He had an even higher Y/R of 17.4 and 9 drops (9.7%).  Obviously the drops are very concerning, but I don't think the low catch % was entirely on Davis

 

And looked at as ROI, I'm not sure we got our money's worth for $6M from Sanders.
I've said elsewhere that I'm skeptical about our 2nd biggest FA splurge, Deonte Harty, being a good use of money. 

 

Anyway have a look, I'm not sold on our signing of Deonte Harty, but I'm also not sold on the ROI per investment for a bunch of those FA.  Who would you consider a good ROI and a better option at #2?

 

Your last line though puzzles me.  Last season, the Chiefs top receiver was a TE - Kelce of course.  Who are the Chiefs "three good WR"?  Tiktok Boy is decent.  MVS has always been a bit of a disappointment IMHO.  Who's the 3rd?  And do you really see TikTok Boy as an $8M step-up on Davis?

 

 

 

[Eastport bills]

1 hour ago, Jerry Jabber said:

While I’m glad to see the Bills try and address the O-line, I’m not sure they’ve done enough to give Josh good/quality targets. IMO, going in the season with Gabe Davis as the #2 WR is a mistake. Davis underperformed last season as he struggled with drops and contested catches. I feel Davis is a better #3WR than the #2 WR. 
 

Trusting a rookie TE to be your slot guy is a huge risk. Would rather see a veteran WR in that position while they break Kincaid into that role.
 

I’m interested in seeing how the Bills use Harty and Sherfield, but neither guy has had eye-popping stats. 
 

If there are no further upgrades to the WR group going into the season, I have concerns about the WR’s outside of Diggs. 

You forgot to mention Davis was our best receiver the last 2 playoffs. Remember the nickname “Big game Gabe”. He’s in his contract year and he’ll be better this season. You also have diminished Kincaid’s rating as the best TE in the draft, with the best hands. Shakir looked great at the end of the year and the Dolphins were crushed when Sherfield bolted. Hill’s comments were telling. His #s were great as 4th receiver getting scraps on a team with Hill and Waddle. Look for Knox and Kincaid to be major safety valve contributors with underneath crossers. I also see Hines lining up in the slot. Everyone not named Miami would love our receiver room.

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

1 hour ago, Jerry Jabber said:

While I’m glad to see the Bills try and address the O-line, I’m not sure they’ve done enough to give Josh good/quality targets. IMO, going in the season with Gabe Davis as the #2 WR is a mistake. Davis underperformed last season as he struggled with drops and contested catches. I feel Davis is a better #3WR than the #2 WR. 
 

Trusting a rookie TE to be your slot guy is a huge risk. Would rather see a veteran WR in that position while they break Kincaid into that role.
 

I’m interested in seeing how the Bills use Harty and Sherfield, but neither guy has had eye-popping stats. 
 

If there are no further upgrades to the WR group going into the season, I have concerns about the WR’s outside of Diggs. 

 

Patrick Mahomes has Marquez Valdes Scantling, Kadarius Toney, Sky Moore, Travis Kelce and Rashee Rice, If those were Allens receivers imagine what we'd be saying about our receiving options. This whole notion that we don't have enough weapons baffles me. Diggs is a top 5 WR in the NFL, Knox is a solid TE, Davis is so underrated by this board it's almost criminal, Shakir looked really good as a rookie when given the chance and add in Harty and Dalton Kincaid plus we have RB Nyheim Hines to throw to. Plenty of options at Allens disposal imo.

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

While I’m glad to see the Bills try and address the O-line, I’m not sure they’ve done enough to give Josh good/quality targets. IMO, going in the season with Gabe Davis as the #2 WR is a mistake. Davis underperformed last season as he struggled with drops and contested catches. I feel Davis is a better #3WR than the #2 WR. 
 

Trusting a rookie TE to be your slot guy is a huge risk. Would rather see a veteran WR in that position while they break Kincaid into that role.
 

I’m interested in seeing how the Bills use Harty and Sherfield, but neither guy has had eye-popping stats. 
 

If there are no further upgrades to the WR group going into the season, I have concerns about the WR’s outside of Diggs. 

For all of the crap that Gabe Davis gets, he had 800 yards last year as a number two

 

Trent Sherfield is a bona fide number three we can’t let shakur waste away on the bench

 

If they start running more two te sets, we’re gonna be losing less wide receivers

[ngbills]

16 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Good enough, but who would that guy be? 
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/

Sort by WR and pick your guy

 

The Cold Hard Fiscal Facts seem to be that once you're paying a QB, a top WR, and a couple top OLman, you probably don't have the cap $$ to splurge on top talent in FA. 

 

It might be worth noting that as a FA signing for 1 yr/$6M, Sanders played 14 reg. season games and contributed 44.7 ypg, 5 targets and 3 receptions a game (58.3%).  He had a high Y/R of 14.9 and 3 drops (4.2%). 

 

Gabe Davis played 15 reg season games and contributed 55.7 ypg, 6 targets and 3 receptions a game (51.6%).  He had an even higher Y/R of 17.4 and 9 drops (9.7%).  Obviously the drops are very concerning, but I don't think the low catch % was entirely on Davis

 

And looked at as ROI, I'm not sure we got our money's worth for $6M from Sanders.
I've said elsewhere that I'm skeptical about our 2nd biggest FA splurge, Deonte Harty, being a good use of money. 

 

Anyway have a look, I'm not sold on our signing of Deonte Harty, but I'm also not sold on the ROI per investment for a bunch of those FA.  Who would you consider a good ROI and a better option at #2?

 

Your last line though puzzles me.  Last season, the Chiefs top receiver was a TE - Kelce of course.  Who are the Chiefs "three good WR"?  Tiktok Boy is decent.  MVS has always been a bit of a disappointment IMHO.  Who's the 3rd?  And do you really see TikTok Boy as an $8M step-up on Davis?

 

 

 

We could have used the Harty and Hines money to pay for Hopkins or pick your #2.

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, Jerry Jabber said:

IMO, the Bills have a #1 Diggs, #3 (but being used as a #2), Davis, but the rest of the WR’s are lower level WR’s. Sorry, but I have a hard time seeing these guys beat teams like the Bengals and Chiefs in the playoffs, especially after seeing the Bills only score ten points in the playoff game against the Bengals this past January.

Can you explain this further? 

I really don't think you understand what #2 WRs do in the NFL now. Most potent offenses have a slot WR, a TE, or in McCaffrey case a RB as the number 2 target for passes after their #1. WR#2 on most offenses is going to be 3rd or 4th in targets. What the Bills lack is not Davis paying WR#2. He is an excellent WR with an elite YPC. He makes difficult catches often and he has consistency catching the ball issues. He's far from perfect but he is a near ideal WR#2.

What the Bills lack is two things. A slot WR like Beasley in his prime.  A guy that can catch 80 balls and move the chains. In 2023 I think the best we can hope for is slot by committee and hope that Kincaid, Shakir, and the others combine for 100-120 receptions.

They also lack the determination to get the ball to Knox. Knox has the ability to be a top 5 TE. They need to scheme and design more routes for him to take the pressure of Diggs. 

 

[JerseyBills]

2 hours ago, I'm Spartacus said:

I think Sherfield is going to suprise us.

Harty as well. He'll be the fastest guy out there and was criminally under used w terrible qb play

 

Turned down more $ to be here, adds a speed dimension in slot or outside

 

We definitely upgraded 

Last year we opened with Diggs,Davis McKenzie, Crowder, Shakir, Knox, Doyle/Morris 

 

23- Diggs,Davis,Shakir , Harty , Sherfield, Knox , Kincaid 

[Royale with Cheese]

I will hold my breath every time it's thrown to Gabe Davis.  

[Simon Says]

I would have been happy to add Demarcus Robinson, for example, as insurance. But ,yeah, if there is an injury to 

Diggs, I'll be very concerned

[ngbills]

23 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Harty as well. He'll be the fastest guy out there and was criminally under used w terrible qb play

 

Turned down more $ to be here, adds a speed dimension in slot or outside

 

We definitely upgraded 

Last year we opened with Diggs,Davis McKenzie, Crowder, Shakir, Knox, Doyle/Morris 

 

23- Diggs,Davis,Shakir , Harty , Sherfield, Knox , Kincaid 

Devils advocate:

22 Diggs is still 23 Diggs, slightly older. Same (could argue age = downgrade)

 

22 Davis vs 23 Davis - The 22 Davis was coming in with huge expectations after the playoff. He did not live up to the hype. Downgrade (based on reality)

 

22 McK / Crowder / Shakir vs 23 Shakir / Harty / Sherfield - Big ?. Shakir is still Shakir, last year there were mixed expectations, this year there are mixed expectations. McK and Crowder vs Harty and Sherfield? I dont know. Crowder is the most proven of them. McK can be polarizing, some say he is not used enough similar to Harty. Sherfield is serviceable. I don't see two guys that have been in the league 4 years and not done much being a huge upgrade over McK and Crowder. Same (could be better could be worse)

 

22 Knox/Morris vs Knox Kincaid - Unless Kincaid gets hurt or is not on the field this has to be an upgrade. Upgrade

[K-9]

How many concerns about the offense have you received? By whom and what are they most concerned about?

[jkeerie]

In my opinion, there were two main problems with last year's offense:  1.  The offensive line and 2.  Isaiah Mckenzie.  We've improved the offensive line...at least the quality of players.  Getting rid of McKenzie is addition by subtraction.   He could not be relied upon and, I believe cost us points.

[Augie]

I heard the Cards recently released a guy who might be available as a true #2.  Has anyone mentioned him yet? 

[BillsFanForever19]

The "Create another DeAndre Hopkins thread without mentioning DeAndre Hopkins" challenge.

[hondo in seattle]

2 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

While I’m glad to see the Bills try and address the O-line, I’m not sure they’ve done enough to give Josh good/quality targets. IMO, going in the season with Gabe Davis as the #2 WR is a mistake. Davis underperformed last season as he struggled with drops and contested catches. I feel Davis is a better #3WR than the #2 WR. 
 

Trusting a rookie TE to be your slot guy is a huge risk. Would rather see a veteran WR in that position while they break Kincaid into that role.
 

I’m interested in seeing how the Bills use Harty and Sherfield, but neither guy has had eye-popping stats. 
 

If there are no further upgrades to the WR group going into the season, I have concerns about the WR’s outside of Diggs. 

 

I'm both nervous and excited about the passing game in 2023.  I'm nervous because I do worry about the lack of a true #2 and I'm not sure Gabe will be any better this year than last.   But I do think that we have a solid group overall and Dorsey has some weapons for his offense.  

 

I don't think Kincaid will be an immediate force, but I do think he adds something to our offense that we hadn't had before.  He's a big, sure-handed, and a fluid route runner who's both skilled and comfortable working the middle of the field. 

 

I think Harty and Sherfield are better than the inconsistent McKenzie and injured Crowder who they replace.  

 

Shakir should be better with a full season under his belt.  

Both Cook and Hines can catch out of the backfield and I'm hoping Dorsey integrates the backs into the passing game better this year, particularly as outlet receivers. 

 

An improved OL will give a chance for plays to develop and time for Josh to go through his progressions.  

 

If Dorsey does his job, and players (Josh, especially) stay healthy, this should be a dynamic passing attack.  

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

2 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

IMO, the Bills have a #1 Diggs, #3 (but being used as a #2), Davis, but the rest of the WR’s are lower level WR’s. Sorry, but I have a hard time seeing these guys beat teams like the Bengals and Chiefs in the playoffs, especially after seeing the Bills only score ten points in the playoff game against the Bengals this past January.

 

The good news is the playoffs are in January, not September.  By then a player like Kincaid could be doing pretty well.  A QB like Allen makes everyone around him look better too.  They also should have better capability of pass catching out of the backfield too with Cook having a year experience, plus the Murray, Harris, and Hines.  Recall last year reading between Allen being hurt and not practicing, then the snow storm limiting things, in early December, Hines and Allen had only practiced 2 or 3 times together.  Davis also was hurt a good part of the year too.

 

The other side of it, who should they have signed with limited $$ to spend.  Most of their signings were all lower salaried players with a couple of exceptions.  Not sure what true #2 WR they could have signed with the amount of money they had.  Maybe if Hopkins finds out there's little market for him at the salary he wants, they will sign him too, doubtful IMO but every day he remains unsigned increases the chances too.

[Jerry Jabber]

1 hour ago, Eastport bills said:

You forgot to mention Davis was our best receiver the last 2 playoffs. Remember the nickname “Big game Gabe”. He’s in his contract year and he’ll be better this season. You also have diminished Kincaid’s rating as the best TE in the draft, with the best hands. Shakir looked great at the end of the year and the Dolphins were crushed when Sherfield bolted. Hill’s comments were telling. His #s were great as 4th receiver getting scraps on a team with Hill and Waddle. Look for Knox and Kincaid to be major safety valve contributors with underneath crossers. I also see Hines lining up in the slot. Everyone not named Miami would love our receiver room.

"Big Game Gabe" had 2 receptions for 34 yards against the Bengals in the playoffs last year. 

 

Betting on a rookie to make an immediate impact is always very risky! 

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, ngbills said:

We could have used the Harty and Hines money to pay for Hopkins or pick your #2.

 

What is the Hopkins released much later than we made these deals pretty sure that that’s the case

[Matt_In_NH]

3 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

I’m interested in seeing how the Bills use Harty and Sherfield, but neither guy has had eye-popping stats. 

 

Kincard, Harty and Sherfield are an upgrade over Crowder, McKenzie and Kumerow.  Anyone think otherwise?   Kincard has traits this offense has never seen, same can be said about Harty.  Maybe if Crowder stayed healthy last years group would look better but McKenzie and Kumerow had more limitations that the guys who are replacing them.  Harty is an injury waiting to happen too though so there is that.  Can't disagree about Davis, not sure he is a real number 2 but he gets another shot at it in a contract year.   Bills Mafia is weird about him, they dont want him to be the number 2 but they want to pay him as a number 2.  I love what he has been in big moments but I let him walk vs paying him a lot of cash.