Brandon Beane admitting fault & not learning from his mistakes.

[starrymessenger]

32 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

Name a team with a franchise QB that hired outside the org to replace a departing OC.  More times that not, it’s an internal hire 

Not sure why the inquiry should be limited to teams with franchise QBs, except that then there will be fewer examples. Excellent rhetorical technique. Seriously, I think it’s probably happened a fair bit but not much comes to mind and I’m too lazy to research it. But even just looking at whats happening now there are a few examples: Schottenheimer to Dallas, LaFleur to the Rams, Moore to the Chargers. And didn’t Press Taylor move to Jax recently (from Indy)? And what about Hackett going to Green Bay. That Rodgers guy is pretty franchise like as QBs go.

Of course teams also fill that position internally and if thats what you are saying I agree. I hope that you arte not arguing that because the Bills have a talented young QB Dorsey was automatically a good choice. Right now it looks more to me like he is OC because he was a spare part in Carolina for five or six years.

 

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, teef said:

you don't think a new coordinator can improve from one season to the next?  he may not, but to act like it can't happen is wrong.

 

not if he's a bum

[nucci]

3 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Regarding your last sentence, I also don't understand how Dorsey is supposed to evolve into a different, much better coordinator in one off-season.  Sure, he probably picked up some experience here and there and learned some things, generally, but he's going to be the same guy next September.

That's not good.

 

 

How did he not learn anything from Daboll and keep most of that offense?

[ganesh]

20 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

Not sure why the inquiry should be limited to teams with franchise QBs, except that then there will be fewer examples. Excellent rhetorical technique. Seriously, I think it’s probably happened a fair bit but not much comes to mind and I’m too lazy to research it. But even just looking at whats happening now there are a few examples: Schottenheimer to Dallas, LaFleur to the Rams, Moore to the Chargers. And didn’t Press Taylor move to Jax recently (from Indy)? And what about Hackett going to Green Bay. That Rodgers guy is pretty franchise like as QBs go.

Of course teams also fill that position internally and if thats what you are saying I agree. I hope that you arte not arguing that because the Bills have a talented young QB Dorsey was automatically a good choice. Right now it looks more to me like he is OC because he was a spare part in Carolina for five or six years.

 

Dorsey has been the QB coach here for the past three years and probably had an excellent handle on it learning from Daboll.  He was as qualified for the job as any other OC that might have been available last year.  Dorsey did a reasonably good job to have the Bills at 13-3 in spite of what others might say.  I mean we were blowing away teams early in the season before the injuries gave in.  Our draft picks on the Offensive side were very average (Cook, Shakir) and the FA (Crowder) was done after the 1st game. 

 

I believe Dorsey will learn from this years experience and know that further creativity is required and maximize the use of our non-elite players.  

[BillsFan130]

4 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I’m going to pre-face this by saying that I think that our general manager overall has done an outstanding job, you don’t stay in the playoffs every year and have 13 and three seasons whenever your GM sucks
 

However

 

I agree with the take of saying one thing, and doing another, whenever it comes to the offensive line

 

It feels like we have done the bare minimum to try to put a confident offensive line on the field, start addressing it the same way that you have been addressing the defensive line but hopefully with better players

Outside of Josh Allen, I would say he’s been very average in regards to FA and the draft.

 

Josh was a grand slam pick.

 

Some horrible decisions

 

Some good decisions

 

Some “ok” decisions.

 

Josh was the pick that saved him, and definitely have to give him a ton of credit for that.

[Dr.Sack]

Dorsey should talk to Andy Reid about finding ways to scheme guys wide open in red zone or key 3rd downs. 

[Billznut]

1 hour ago, Dr.Sack said:

Dorsey should talk to Andy Reid about finding ways to scheme guys wide open in red zone or key 3rd downs. 

I think he is still saving things for the really really BIG games. Or at least that was the thought process by some this past year. 🤨

[Shaw66]

5 hours ago, Lost said:

 

The real question is how many years can we afford to wait for that growth without sacrificing the prime years of our QB..

As long as it takes.   Denver waited eight or ten years before they changed coaches.  

[Freak-O]

5 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

We had no choice.  From what I understand Josh asked for Beas by name.  That's how little faith he had in the guys on the roster not named Diggs.  Crowder was the only injury there, so for our franchise QB to ask for a dude that had retired is shocking to me and signaled what kind of state our WR corps was in outside of Diggs.  This is why it must be addressed this offseason and why I see it as the biggest need along with the OL.

So Josh wanted Dorsey as OC and he asked for Beasley to be brought back? Maybe it’s time they don’t let him make such decisions? I understand him wanting people around him that he knows and is comfortable with, but I doubt they were the best options out there.

[John from Riverside]

7 hours ago, uticaclub said:

We are in the playoffs because Beane drafted Allen. We arent making confidence championships because Beane has missed on every other move other than trading for Diggs. 

That is incorrect Tremaine Edmunds, whether you like him or don’t like him is an excellent linebacker
 

There are no superstars in the other pics, but there are competent NFL players if you didn’t have competent NFL players you don’t go 13th at three I don’t care how good your quarterback is

 

Stop trying to downplay his achievements because it doesn’t fit your agenda

[BillsFanForever19]

11 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

Now Hodgins flashed in camp a few times. Brought a huge element to the offense big body,speed, I mean added to Diggs, Davis, McKenzie/Shakir would have gave us some great matchups. The fact Beane let him sit on the PS. Knowing Daboll knows all about Hodgins why not active. You bring in John Brown & Cole Beasley. Both old & already played themselves out of Buffalo.

 

Hodgins is a big body, but does not have speed. He's a red zone, contested catch guy who has no Special Teams ability. Also, John Brown was added 3 weeks after Hodgins was signed by the Giants. Cole Beasley after that. Beane didn't choose them over Hodgins.

 

We'll never know if Beane offered him a spot on the 53 or not when the Giants called. Very possible he did and Hodgins himself chose the Giants.

 

He's caught on with a team that had a weak roster, a weak WR core, and clearly overachieved. Good for him. But let's stop turning him into some Pro Bowl player deserving to be spoken of in the same breath as Wyatt Teller. 

 

Deep rostered teams like we were at the time put players on the Practice Squad that will be poached by less deep teams. Like Raheem Blackshear in Carolina. Good for him as well. There were spots for them there that wasn't here at the time.

Edited February 14, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[finn]

14 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Regarding your last sentence, I also don't understand how Dorsey is supposed to evolve into a different, much better coordinator in one off-season.  Sure, he probably picked up some experience here and there and learned some things, generally, but he's going to be the same guy next September.

That's not good.

 

 

I had the same thought. You look at KC with Reid and Bienemy, then you look at what we have: a rookie OC (last year), green as hell, at least in comparison. It's like assigning a newbie jockey to ride Secretariat. 

[ProcessTruster]

14 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

We had no choice.  From what I understand Josh asked for Beas by name.  That's how little faith he had in the guys on the roster not named Diggs.  Crowder was the only injury there, so for our franchise QB to ask for a dude that had retired is shocking to me and signaled what kind of state our WR corps was in outside of Diggs.  This is why it must be addressed this offseason and why I see it as the biggest need along with the OL.

Resigning Crowder back for $1.5-2m solves this.   His injury was devastating; he was really being counted on to take over the slot.  He can be the Y.   Done.  Or Beas, bc Josh trusts him and he can be acquired cheap and he is healthy.  Think Welker in his final years.  Still works. 

 

Draft the Z this year.  Outside quicks and separation.  Diggs will be doubled until this is solved.  Also, provide competition for Gabe , who they won't be offering another contract to in all likelihood.   Not a big fan of mock drafts, but those mocking Jordan Addison to the Bills for the Z make ton of sense. 

 

The owner will be pre occupied with his wife's recovery for the foreseeable future (as he should be), so this franchise is in McBeane's hands whether the fan base likes it or not.   They are 55 and 21 over the past 4 years so Pegs ain't messing with that. 

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

15 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Regarding your last sentence, I also don't understand how Dorsey is supposed to evolve into a different, much better coordinator in one off-season.  Sure, he probably picked up some experience here and there and learned some things, generally, but he's going to be the same guy next September.

That's not good.

 

 

 

Wow lol.  If he's going to be the same guy next year, then he didn't pick up experience or learned things.  WTF 😂

 

Yes you can grow in one year.  You can grow during the season.  You can grow in the offseason when you look back at film and study.  I assure you, these coaches are looking at areas to clean up.  

 

We were #3 in NFL Offensive scoring this year.  And this is without a good offensive line and # WR....I mean you of all people complain about or talent on offense.  

And with that talent, Dorsey led an offense to #3 in scoring with a second half injured Allen (who lead the NFL in red zone turnovers by a big margin).

 

Dorsey had struggles this year but overall did a pretty decent job in his first year. 

 

We will be again a top scoring offense in the NFL next year.

 

44 minutes ago, finn said:

I had the same thought. You look at KC with Reid and Bienemy, then you look at what we have: a rookie OC (last year), green as hell, at least in comparison. It's like assigning a newbie jockey to ride Secretariat. 

 

Bienemy's first stint as OC was Mahomes first year as starter.  He was the running backs coach prior.  

[uticaclub]

5 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

That is incorrect Tremaine Edmunds, whether you like him or don’t like him is an excellent linebacker
 

There are no superstars in the other pics, but there are competent NFL players if you didn’t have competent NFL players you don’t go 13th at three I don’t care how good your quarterback is

 

Stop trying to downplay his achievements because it doesn’t fit your agenda

And we are about to like Edmunds walk because we arent in a situtation to sign our own, a concept Beane often preaches.

[Billz4ever]

11 hours ago, Freak-O said:

So Josh wanted Dorsey as OC and he asked for Beasley to be brought back? Maybe it’s time they don’t let him make such decisions? I understand him wanting people around him that he knows and is comfortable with, but I doubt they were the best options out there.

Who said he made the decision?  He gave his input and the FO took his advice.

 

I think you meant to say they should ignore the input of the face of the franchise.

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, uticaclub said:

And we are about to like Edmunds walk because we arent in a situtation to sign our own, a concept Beane often preaches.

You have absolutely no idea whether or not we’re going to sign Edmonds
 

The fact of the matter is we have been signing our own

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Hodgins never flashed in any training camp.  Where does this stuff come from?  He is a bottom tier prospect that caught a few passes for a NY Giants team that has one of the worst WR groups in the NFL.  He has no speed but decent size and decent hands.  He would not make the roster of most NFL teams.  He is a guy that will float from PS to PS with maybe some call-ups do to injuries.  Beane and McD make their share of mistakes, Hodgins is not one of them. 

[Shaw66]

18 hours ago, Lost said:

 

The real question is how many years can we afford to wait for that growth without sacrificing the prime years of our QB..

I don't buy the "how many years" thing.  The franchise is not being run on some kind of theory that there's a window closing, and we have to do it now, or some opportunity will be lost.    This franchise is being run for the long term, seeking to get better year over year.  

 

Their problems with the "how many years" argument.   First, as I said earlier, if the Bills panic and replace Dorsey, who do they replace him with?  If there's a McVay or Shanahan out there as an OC, he's getting a HC gig.   If there's a guy who's about to become a McVay or Shanahan, how do you know for sure?   Maybe he'll pan out in one year in Buffalo, maybe he won't.  

 

Then there's the issue of the guy coming in and changing the system.  If you found a Shanahan, he would completely revamp the running game and the passing game.   That means you have to change personnel.   It's not a one-year deal.  It's multiple years, so you're talking about major impacts to the franchise.  Plus, do you want to change the system Allen's running?

 

How about Bieniemy?  Apparently he is in the market for an OC spot?   Well, does anyone actually know how good he is?   Does he need Reid to do what Bieniemy does?   

 

Point is, it is far from clear that if you change coordinators today, the 2023 season will be better with the new guy than with an improving Dorsey.   And same question for 2024.  And if you don't win in those years, are you changing coordinators again, because if you don't win then you've failed at replacing Dorsey with someone better, so your logic would say replace him.  

 

There is a lot of logic to the continuity approach to running a franchise.  

[BillsVet]

14 hours ago, ganesh said:

Dorsey has been the QB coach here for the past three years and probably had an excellent handle on it learning from Daboll.  He was as qualified for the job as any other OC that might have been available last year.  Dorsey did a reasonably good job to have the Bills at 13-3 in spite of what others might say.  I mean we were blowing away teams early in the season before the injuries gave in.  Our draft picks on the Offensive side were very average (Cook, Shakir) and the FA (Crowder) was done after the 1st game. 

 

I believe Dorsey will learn from this years experience and know that further creativity is required and maximize the use of our non-elite players.  

 

McD went with Dorsey because, among other things, Josh would not need to learn an entirely new offense and approved the move.  But that was a false sense of security for the HC, who ultimately thought this gave him room to improve the defense even more because the offense was now sustained.

 

I've never thought McD has embraced the HC role and seems to abdicate offense over to the OC.  I would compare the promotion from coordinator to HC to becoming a general officer in the Army or Marine Corps.  You leave behind the branch you were commissioned into, become a "general" officer and thus need to see a greater picture beyond your specific background.  McD just comes off as a super-DC with personnel authority who tolerates the offensive side and doesn't want to nor try to understand the other side of the ball.  

 

Oddly enough, it's like a reverse Chan Gailey who was de fact OC, but really had little clue what George Edwards or Wannstache were doing on defense. 

[Logic]

I feel like it's revisionist history to think that Daboll was ALWAYS a great play caller.

Whether you want to look at his offensive rankings in his pre-Bills years or his first couple of years in Buffalo, it took him time to improve to the point where the Bills had a top offense and he got hired away as a head coach. As recently as the midway point of the 2021 season, there were many Bills fans who couldn't WAIT to ship him out of town. Go back and read gameday threads from 2021 if you don't believe me.

As such, I think it's reasonable to believe that Dorsey can improve in year two as a play caller. We've heard from Josh Allen how much of a perfectionist Ken Dorsey is, and Allen has spent a lot of time with him, so I take him at his word. I'd bet he's already hard at work trying to figure out how to get better next year. I doubt he'd be on McDermott's staff if he wasn't that way.

And if you say "well sure, Logic, Dorsey might get better, but can we afford to wait? Allen is in his prime NOW!", I'd reply that it's not as if we had the 22nd ranked offense this season. The Bills offense was top five in PPG and DVOA. Dorsey ALREADY came pretty strong out of the gate. He obviously needs to improve, and I think it's reasonable to believe that he might.

Note, I'm not saying he'll definitely be the guy. I found his lack of creativity and his personnel usage incredibly frustrating for portions of the year, including the Bengals playoff game. It's possible he never improves. But it's also unreasonable to think that he can't. 

[Augie]

19 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

No it was for Tre who he let sit for another 4 weeks. The point is John Brown nor Beasley should have even been giving a chance. You let the kid see the field early. Get him in the offense if you like him you especially don’t let him hit waivers. 

 

So, were we supposed to play without any DB’s? If you are really paying attention, you’d see this was an unfortunate byproduct of a bizarre rash of injuries in our defensive backfield. Exposing Hodgins to waivers was done out of necessity so we could field a complete team. 

 

Sometimes you just have to got with the least bad option. 

 

Oh, and Tre really wasn’t ready. Hopefully he’s back to his old form next year, because he was not the same guy out there.  

 

.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Augie

[Big Turk]

19 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

"A lot of love for him. Big kid," general manager Brandon Beane said. "Last time we went to Virginia Tech late, it worked out with Wyatt. I screwed it up, but we found a good player there. Not to say this kid is going to be Wyatt, but we're excited about him." This is an article about Wyatt Teller a prospect I thought we hit with & showed great potential said he was a bully & nasty. Clearly Beane wasn’t high on him maybe he didn’t fit the culture. Took what we could get in a trade & he became a pro bowler. Now Hodgins flashed in camp a few times. Brought a huge element to the offense big body,speed, I mean added to Diggs, Davis, McKenzie/Shakir would have gave us some great matchups. The fact Beane let him sit on the PS. Knowing Daboll knows all about Hodgins why not active. You bring in John Brown & Cole Beasley. Both old & already played themselves out of Buffalo. So I have no faith in McDermott or Beane fixing their issues. While our owner clearly is dealing with health issues of his wife a part owner as well. So I don’t see anything being fixed next year. Unless Dorsey has a revelation. 

 

Robert Foster did more than Hodgins did when he got playing time. That should tell you what you need to know. Hodgins is a JAG that probably will not be on the roster as they improve.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Big Turk

[nucci]

7 minutes ago, Logic said:

I feel like it's revisionist history to think that Daboll was ALWAYS a great play caller.

Whether you want to look at his offensive rankings in his pre-Bills years or his first couple of years in Buffalo, it took him time to improve to the point where the Bills had a top offense and he got hired away as a head coach. As recently as the midway point of the 2021 season, there were many Bills fans who couldn't WAIT to ship him out of town. Go back and read gameday threads from 2021 if you don't believe me.

As such, I think it's reasonable to believe that Dorsey can improve in year two as a play caller. We've heard from Josh Allen how much of a perfectionist Ken Dorsey is, and Allen has spent a lot of time with him, so I take him at his word. I'd bet he's already hard at work trying to figure out how to get better next year. I doubt he'd be on McDermott's staff if he wasn't that way.

And if you say "well sure, Logic, Dorsey might get better, but can we afford to wait? Allen is in his prime NOW!", I'd reply that it's not as if we had the 22nd ranked offense this season. The Bills offense was top five in PPG and DVOA. Dorsey ALREADY came pretty strong out of the gate. He obviously needs to improve, and I think it's reasonable to believe that he might.

Note, I'm not saying he'll definitely be the guy. I found his lack of creativity and his personnel usage incredibly frustrating for portions of the year, including the Bengals playoff game. It's possible he never improves. But it's also unreasonable to think that he can't. 

Daboll was extremely frustrating at times but at least we looked organized and well coached with him. I used to yell to run the ball more when he was here

[Logic]

Just now, nucci said:

Daboll was extremely frustrating at times but at least we looked organized and well coached with him. I used to yell to run the ball more when he was here

To be fair, we looked pretty organized under Dorsey, too.

The calls almost always got in on time. There were very rarely delay of games, too many men in the huddle, burned timeouts, etc. Those things are marks of a disorganized offense. 

My principal concern about Dorsey is his lack of creativity and his unimaginative use of personnel. Things like the lack of usage of Cook and Hines in the passing game, lack of usage of Hines AT ALL, lack of "easy looks" for Josh, etc. Like if you watched the Super Bowl, you saw both quarterbacks have a host of wide open receivers due to scheme. Easy layup decisions and throws for the quarterback. There aren't NEARLY enough of those in the Bills offense. I also wish that he would use the speed at his disposal (Cook, Hines, McKenzie) to stretch defenses horizontally, and would use them as eye candy more often to give defenders a second of hesitation.

All in all, I have plenty to gripe at Dorsey about, but disorganization was not on my list. Lack of creativity and poor personnel usage definitely were.

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

To be fair, we looked pretty organized under Dorsey, too.

The calls almost always got in on time. There were very rarely delay of games, too many men in the huddle, burned timeouts, etc. Those things are marks of a disorganized offense. 

My principal concern about Dorsey is his lack of creativity and his unimaginative use of personnel. Things like the lack of usage of Cook and Hines in the passing game, lack of usage of Hines AT ALL, lack of "easy looks" for Josh, etc. Like if you watched the Super Bowl, you saw both quarterbacks have a host of wide open receivers due to scheme. Easy layup decisions and throws for the quarterback. There aren't NEARLY enough of those in the Bills offense. I also wish that he would use the speed at his disposal (Cook, Hines, McKenzie) to stretch defenses horizontally, and would use them as eye candy more often to give defenders a second of hesitation.

All in all, I have plenty to gripe at Dorsey about, but disorganization was not on my list. Lack of creativity and poor personnel usage definitely were.

This is right on the money.  As I've thought about the season, I've stopped worrying so much about the defense and begun thinking more about the offense.   As I said the other day, the problem with the loss to the Bengals was not the defense - the Bengals are going to put up 25-30 against almost anyone, and 40 if your defense isn't good.  The problem is that the offense has to score with them.  

 

I agree about the creativity.  That was my complaint about the early Daboll also.   Receivers get open with scheme, not with moves.  Scheme comes from film study, understanding the tendencies of the defense and taking advantage of it.  The Chiefs got two walk-in touchdowns against the Eagles by doing exactly that - they knew how the Eagles would play against certain sets in certain situations, and they designed a play that would take advantage of it.   It's also true about those plays where Kelce cuts back to the weak side, against the flow - they catch the defense reacting to flow and let the defense create the open space for Kelce to move to.  That's creative coaching.  

 

There weren't enough easy completions for Allen in 2022.  Guys weren't getting open by taking advantage of weak spots in the defense.   That's all about film study of the opponent, play design, and implementation.   That's what we didn't see from Dorsey this season.

 

Yes, the Bills need to protect Allen better.  But the genius of Allen is the same as the genius of Mahomes, which is that protected or not, they have the ability to find, and the arm talent to get the ball to, open receivers.   What Dorsey has to do is scheme better to give Allen open receivers. 

[nucci]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

To be fair, we looked pretty organized under Dorsey, too.

The calls almost always got in on time. There were very rarely delay of games, too many men in the huddle, burned timeouts, etc. Those things are marks of a disorganized offense. 

My principal concern about Dorsey is his lack of creativity and his unimaginative use of personnel. Things like the lack of usage of Cook and Hines in the passing game, lack of usage of Hines AT ALL, lack of "easy looks" for Josh, etc. Like if you watched the Super Bowl, you saw both quarterbacks have a host of wide open receivers due to scheme. Easy layup decisions and throws for the quarterback. There aren't NEARLY enough of those in the Bills offense. I also wish that he would use the speed at his disposal (Cook, Hines, McKenzie) to stretch defenses horizontally, and would use them as eye candy more often to give defenders a second of hesitation.

All in all, I have plenty to gripe at Dorsey about, but disorganization was not on my list. Lack of creativity and poor personnel usage definitely were.

exactly

[Rebel101]

21 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

We had no choice.  From what I understand Josh asked for Beas by name.  That's how little faith he had in the guys on the roster not named Diggs.  Crowder was the only injury there, so for our franchise QB to ask for a dude that had retired is shocking to me and signaled what kind of state our WR corps was in outside of Diggs.  This is why it must be addressed this offseason and why I see it as the biggest need along with the OL.

Josh has too much say. He needs to worry about playing football and not getting Matt Barkley & Gentry on the team. Imo. He also wanted Dorsey. The receivers are given too much freedom to go deep if they want. Coaches are there for a reason as the players. I believe it’s in the definition of their job, one should not be letting the other dictate their decisions. 

2 hours ago, Logic said:

To be fair, we looked pretty organized under Dorsey, too.

The calls almost always got in on time. There were very rarely delay of games, too many men in the huddle, burned timeouts, etc. Those things are marks of a disorganized offense. 

My principal concern about Dorsey is his lack of creativity and his unimaginative use of personnel. Things like the lack of usage of Cook and Hines in the passing game, lack of usage of Hines AT ALL, lack of "easy looks" for Josh, etc. Like if you watched the Super Bowl, you saw both quarterbacks have a host of wide open receivers due to scheme. Easy layup decisions and throws for the quarterback. There aren't NEARLY enough of those in the Bills offense. I also wish that he would use the speed at his disposal (Cook, Hines, McKenzie) to stretch defenses horizontally, and would use them as eye candy more often to give defenders a second of hesitation.

All in all, I have plenty to gripe at Dorsey about, but disorganization was not on my list. Lack of creativity and poor personnel usage definitely were.

I agree & there was a point in time, when we first got Hines. If he was on the field the defense knew he was getting handed the ball. We can only hope Dorsey gets better & as the rest of the coaching staff. 

[ganesh]

7 hours ago, Logic said:

To be fair, we looked pretty organized under Dorsey, too.

The calls almost always got in on time. There were very rarely delay of games, too many men in the huddle, burned timeouts, etc. Those things are marks of a disorganized offense. 

My principal concern about Dorsey is his lack of creativity and his unimaginative use of personnel. Things like the lack of usage of Cook and Hines in the passing game, lack of usage of Hines AT ALL, lack of "easy looks" for Josh, etc. Like if you watched the Super Bowl, you saw both quarterbacks have a host of wide open receivers due to scheme. Easy layup decisions and throws for the quarterback. There aren't NEARLY enough of those in the Bills offense. I also wish that he would use the speed at his disposal (Cook, Hines, McKenzie) to stretch defenses horizontally, and would use them as eye candy more often to give defenders a second of hesitation.

All in all, I have plenty to gripe at Dorsey about, but disorganization was not on my list. Lack of creativity and poor personnel usage definitely were.

I think this was a key difference between Dorsey and Daboll.   Daboll used the speed available to him and put the ball in the hands of those players to make the plays.  Dorsey went for the long ball too often when the checkdowns with the speed RBs were hardly used.  Also, to be fair,  Cook struggled the first half of the year before coming on.  Hines was taking time to learn the playbook.   May be this year will be different

[ChasBB]

I'm kind of over this trying to find players to "fit the culture".  Go and find the next Conrad Dobler - he's out there somewhere (maybe anyhow).  It's time for McBeane to develop an edge and find players who will slug it out.

Edited February 15, 2023 by ChasBB
spelling

[Lost]

7 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

This is right on the money.  As I've thought about the season, I've stopped worrying so much about the defense and begun thinking more about the offense.   As I said the other day, the problem with the loss to the Bengals was not the defense - the Bengals are going to put up 25-30 against almost anyone, and 40 if your defense isn't good.  The problem is that the offense has to score with them.  

 

I agree about the creativity.  That was my complaint about the early Daboll also.   Receivers get open with scheme, not with moves.  Scheme comes from film study, understanding the tendencies of the defense and taking advantage of it.  The Chiefs got two walk-in touchdowns against the Eagles by doing exactly that - they knew how the Eagles would play against certain sets in certain situations, and they designed a play that would take advantage of it.   It's also true about those plays where Kelce cuts back to the weak side, against the flow - they catch the defense reacting to flow and let the defense create the open space for Kelce to move to.  That's creative coaching.  

 

There weren't enough easy completions for Allen in 2022.  Guys weren't getting open by taking advantage of weak spots in the defense.   That's all about film study of the opponent, play design, and implementation.   That's what we didn't see from Dorsey this season.

 

Yes, the Bills need to protect Allen better.  But the genius of Allen is the same as the genius of Mahomes, which is that protected or not, they have the ability to find, and the arm talent to get the ball to, open receivers.   What Dorsey has to do is scheme better to give Allen open receivers. 

 

This is part of what I don't understand with Dorsey.   Early on in the season they seemed to be running pretty specific schemes and they worked.   I'm pretty sure they game planned week 1 vs Rams entirely around Aaron Donald.  Almost all the offensive plays were 3 step drop release.  Allen rarely held on to the ball for more than 2.5 seconds.   Then midway through the season we just went completely away from all of that and started playing backyard football.   What happened?

[LABILLBACKER]

8 hours ago, Augie said:

 

So, were we supposed to play without any DB’s? If you are really paying attention, you’d see this was an unfortunate byproduct of a bizarre rash of injuries in our defensive backfield. Exposing Hodgins to waivers was done out of necessity so we could field a complete team. 

 

Sometimes you just have to got with the least bad option. 

 

Oh, and Tre really wasn’t ready. Hopefully he’s back to his old form next year, because he was not the same guy out there.  

 

.

Yeah we had no choice but to expose Hodgins. Micah, Jordan, Dane and Tre were all unavailable. We had to call up bodies.  

47 minutes ago, ChasBB said:

I'm kind of over this trying to find players to "fit the culture".  Go and find the next Conrad Dobler - he's out there somewhere (maybe anyhow).  It's time for McBeane to develop an edge and find players who will slug it out.

I'm personally done watching Sean draft the "all Church league".....

[billsfan3482]

On 2/13/2023 at 4:38 PM, Nextmanup said:

Regarding your last sentence, I also don't understand how Dorsey is supposed to evolve into a different, much better coordinator in one off-season.  Sure, he probably picked up some experience here and there and learned some things, generally, but he's going to be the same guy next September.

That's not good.

 

 

100% this.   The offense started the season strong and then went to looking lost.   There is Zero creativity, no ability to counter a defense. Its, try a run or Allen throw a 50 yarder.

If Dorsey was improving and evolving we would see it.  I cant stand the chiefs, but I'm jealous of their great coaching staff that's gets it DONE!!

2 super bowls for them..   While bills fans, are banking on an inexperienced OC somehow improving his 2nd year to something great..

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by billsfan3482

[Patrick Duffy]

17 minutes ago, Lost said:

 

This is part of what I don't understand with Dorsey.   Early on in the season they seemed to be running pretty specific schemes and they worked.   I'm pretty sure they game planned week 1 vs Rams entirely around Aaron Donald.  Almost all the offensive plays were 3 step drop release.  Allen rarely held on to the ball for more than 2.5 seconds.   Then midway through the season we just went completely away from all of that and started playing backyard football.   What happened?

 

Maybe Defenses started to figure him out and adjusted. Dorsey seemed to have trouble when he needed to be creative enough to counter it with his own adjustments

[Augie]

6 minutes ago, billsfan3482 said:

100% this.   The offense started the season strong and then went to looking lost.   There is Zero creativity, no ability to counter a defense. Its, try a run or Allen throw a 50 yarder.

If Dorsey was improving and evolving we would see it.  I cant stand the chiefs, but I'm jealous of their great coaching staff that's gets it DONE!!

2 super bowls for them..   While bills fans, are banking on an inexperienced OC somehow improving his 2nd year to something great..

 

 

 

I don’t know where to find it, but did you see Josh’s stats before and after the elbow injury. If you recall, we KILLED it early! I am NOT blaming everything on that, but it was a striking difference.

 

The offense needs to complement itself better. As I’ve heard others complain, it’s just a bunch of plays being called, with no identity. The pass should set up the run, and the run should set up the pass. OH, and why are screens and draws impossible? 

 

BUT, it’s OK to be a bit jealous of a first ballot HOF HC. They don’t come around that often, but at least we are about to see a couple retire. 

[John from Riverside]

20 hours ago, Logic said:

I feel like it's revisionist history to think that Daboll was ALWAYS a great play caller.

Whether you want to look at his offensive rankings in his pre-Bills years or his first couple of years in Buffalo, it took him time to improve to the point where the Bills had a top offense and he got hired away as a head coach. As recently as the midway point of the 2021 season, there were many Bills fans who couldn't WAIT to ship him out of town. Go back and read gameday threads from 2021 if you don't believe me.

As such, I think it's reasonable to believe that Dorsey can improve in year two as a play caller. We've heard from Josh Allen how much of a perfectionist Ken Dorsey is, and Allen has spent a lot of time with him, so I take him at his word. I'd bet he's already hard at work trying to figure out how to get better next year. I doubt he'd be on McDermott's staff if he wasn't that way.

And if you say "well sure, Logic, Dorsey might get better, but can we afford to wait? Allen is in his prime NOW!", I'd reply that it's not as if we had the 22nd ranked offense this season. The Bills offense was top five in PPG and DVOA. Dorsey ALREADY came pretty strong out of the gate. He obviously needs to improve, and I think it's reasonable to believe that he might.

Note, I'm not saying he'll definitely be the guy. I found his lack of creativity and his personnel usage incredibly frustrating for portions of the year, including the Bengals playoff game. It's possible he never improves. But it's also unreasonable to think that he can't. 

I seem to remember us doing a lot of complaining that Brian would get too cute in his playcalling

[T master]

So we have another McD & Beane are both a POS post lets fire them & start all over surprise ??? I think not .

[Gregg]

The Bills model to build a championship caliber team is straight out of South Park.

 

1. Step one - collect underpants (Allen)

2 Step two -??????

3.Step three - win Super Bowl.

[Don Otreply]

On 2/13/2023 at 8:04 PM, nucci said:

How did he not learn anything from Daboll and keep most of that offense?

Ego, 

[Don Otreply]

22 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

This is right on the money.  As I've thought about the season, I've stopped worrying so much about the defense and begun thinking more about the offense.   As I said the other day, the problem with the loss to the Bengals was not the defense - the Bengals are going to put up 25-30 against almost anyone, and 40 if your defense isn't good.  The problem is that the offense has to score with them.  

 

I agree about the creativity.  That was my complaint about the early Daboll also.   Receivers get open with scheme, not with moves.  Scheme comes from film study, understanding the tendencies of the defense and taking advantage of it.  The Chiefs got two walk-in touchdowns against the Eagles by doing exactly that - they knew how the Eagles would play against certain sets in certain situations, and they designed a play that would take advantage of it.   It's also true about those plays where Kelce cuts back to the weak side, against the flow - they catch the defense reacting to flow and let the defense create the open space for Kelce to move to.  That's creative coaching.  

 

There weren't enough easy completions for Allen in 2022.  Guys weren't getting open by taking advantage of weak spots in the defense.   That's all about film study of the opponent, play design, and implementation.   That's what we didn't see from Dorsey this season.

 

Yes, the Bills need to protect Allen better.  But the genius of Allen is the same as the genius of Mahomes, which is that protected or not, they have the ability to find, and the arm talent to get the ball to, open receivers.   What Dorsey has to do is scheme better to give Allen open receivers. 

Agree, Dorsey ended up making the offense very predictable with his play calling, and personnel usage, his schemes overall lacked creativity, and made winning games harder than it should have been as the regular season progressed, and made it extremely difficult to win in the post season, as we all witnessed, we all hope the proverbial light goes on for him. 
 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited February 15, 2023 by Don Otreply